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(TechSpot)   "The Ryzen 9 7950X is the new performance king and the jack of all trades, apart from maybe power consumption and pricing, of course." Shut up and take my money   (techspot.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Central processing unit, X reviews, Clock rate, MSI MEG X, X86, CPU cache, Advanced Micro Devices, X scores  
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684 clicks; posted to STEM » on 03 Oct 2022 at 7:18 AM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



29 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-10-03 9:07:01 AM  
AMD is getting more power hungry chips but when you compare them to Intel's offering the power isn't as much of an increase as Intel does and Intel has e-cores to help keep things in check. Throw in better graphics from the AMD side with RDNA2 in the CPU and AMD does reach the level of "Shut up and take my money!'
 
2022-10-03 9:15:56 AM  
I can't wait to see these architectural gains applied to a platform with enough I/O to be useful.

/Desktop platforms do not have enough IO to be useful
//Not a gamer
 
2022-10-03 9:18:36 AM  

likefunbutnot: I can't wait to see these architectural gains applied to a platform with enough I/O to be useful.

/Desktop platforms do not have enough IO to be useful
//Not a gamer


What would count as useful to you
 
2022-10-03 9:30:19 AM  
We have been replacing a bunch of older systems with low end Ryzens. Low end because the lowest end can crank thru stuff 200 times faster than the what they are replacing.  I would love to buy a system like a pcengines APU but with a low end ryzen, nvme and ecc ram.  These are for compute appliances so they can't be virtualized but a RPi is just isn't fast enough yet.  We put them in locally made cases so we can adjust things as needed.

One of our engineers accidentally ordered the wrong Ryzen desktop for himself...  When it was loaded with ram it out preformed everything else we had up to 4 core systems with far less power.
 
2022-10-03 9:30:51 AM  
I still run an i7 4ghz 4790k.
 
2022-10-03 9:41:03 AM  
Dude, they're getting as power hungry as a time-DeLorean
 
2022-10-03 9:44:29 AM  
I read that for some reason. I had quit reading CPU reviews 15(?) years ago. Or more. At that point, the consensus was that CPU clock speeds were maxed around 3.5ghz. So. easy question. When did the clock speeds move? Or was the idea that they were frozen just ballz to begin with?
 
2022-10-03 9:49:36 AM  

Nimbull: AMD is getting more power hungry chips but when you compare them to Intel's offering the power isn't as much of an increase as Intel does and Intel has e-cores to help keep things in check. Throw in better graphics from the AMD side with RDNA2 in the CPU and AMD does reach the level of "Shut up and take my money!'


The 13th gen Intel 13900K will have nominal 125-250W power draw with a potential peak of 350W(!!) in unlimited power mode (to reach that claimed 6GHz), so the 7950X isn't that bad by comparison.  And of course pricing is still well below Intel's.  I've only ever run one Intel system (P166MMX back in '98/99), and it's been AMD ever since, and I'm glad I stuck with them.
 
2022-10-03 9:52:08 AM  

wildcardjack: Dude, they're getting as power hungry as a time-DeLorean


My old AMD FX 9590 pulled 220W constant (no variable speed) and it ran farking hot.  This is just newer processors catching up to where they used to be in the 32nm process node days, just with way smaller transistors (currently down to 5-6nm).
 
2022-10-03 10:03:50 AM  

yakmans_dad: I read that for some reason. I had quit reading CPU reviews 15(?) years ago. Or more. At that point, the consensus was that CPU clock speeds were maxed around 3.5ghz. So. easy question. When did the clock speeds move? Or was the idea that they were frozen just ballz to begin with?


The real limit is about 5 to 8 ghz today.  At 5 the power goes insane and faster goes up exponentially above about 4. CPUs also have a number of things that are time dependent for example the carry on an adder can only happen so fast since it has to propagate the entire width of the ALU structure so the thing can only add so fast. You might be able to build a 10 ghz 8 bit CPU today but would you prefer a 3 ghz 64 bit or a 10 ghz 8 bit?  Outside of benchmarks the speed limits are more about moving data to and from the cache and main memory. There are other limits too and those are also controlled by the speed of light.  A foot is about a nano-light second which means a 1 ghz signal can only travel to another device and back to no more than 6 inches. At 5 ghz, that distance is not much past the edge of the chip substrate.
 
2022-10-03 10:07:20 AM  

DON.MAC: ecc ram.


Just an FYI, because not everybody is aware, DDR5 memory (that AMD's new chips have kind of forced us into) is ECC memory. So tell yourself that when you have to pay a little bit more than DDR4. You are getting the valuable ECC function.
 
2022-10-03 10:19:01 AM  

madgonad: DON.MAC: ecc ram.

Just an FYI, because not everybody is aware, DDR5 memory (that AMD's new chips have kind of forced us into) is ECC memory. So tell yourself that when you have to pay a little bit more than DDR4. You are getting the valuable ECC function.


About a month ago there was a solar flare that hit the southern hemisphere.  We lost more disks in a day than in a year and I've been hearing about others in the same situation.  The old sun gear and newer freebsd servers were  logging ecc errors and/or shutting down ram because of errors. There systems were happy to ignore the issue.  The older sparc systems have ecc error counters that you can get to via dtrace.  If the data has to be exact, you want ecc.
 
2022-10-03 10:46:20 AM  

Nimbull: AMD is getting more power hungry chips but when you compare them to Intel's offering the power isn't as much of an increase as Intel does and Intel has e-cores to help keep things in check. Throw in better graphics from the AMD side with RDNA2 in the CPU and AMD does reach the level of "Shut up and take my money!'


Just bought a Ryzen 7 5700x 8 core/16 thread w a 65 watt TDP for 250.

So getting a kick out of this thread.
 
2022-10-03 10:48:59 AM  

Psychopusher: Nimbull: AMD is getting more power hungry chips but when you compare them to Intel's offering the power isn't as much of an increase as Intel does and Intel has e-cores to help keep things in check. Throw in better graphics from the AMD side with RDNA2 in the CPU and AMD does reach the level of "Shut up and take my money!'

The 13th gen Intel 13900K will have nominal 125-250W power draw with a potential peak of 350W(!!) in unlimited power mode (to reach that claimed 6GHz), so the 7950X isn't that bad by comparison.  And of course pricing is still well below Intel's.  I've only ever run one Intel system (P166MMX back in '98/99), and it's been AMD ever since, and I'm glad I stuck with them.


Just bought a ryzen 7 5700x 8/16 thread w a tdp of 65 watts for 250.
 
2022-10-03 10:50:51 AM  

DON.MAC: yakmans_dad: I read that for some reason. I had quit reading CPU reviews 15(?) years ago. Or more. At that point, the consensus was that CPU clock speeds were maxed around 3.5ghz. So. easy question. When did the clock speeds move? Or was the idea that they were frozen just ballz to begin with?

The real limit is about 5 to 8 ghz today.  At 5 the power goes insane and faster goes up exponentially above about 4. CPUs also have a number of things that are time dependent for example the carry on an adder can only happen so fast since it has to propagate the entire width of the ALU structure so the thing can only add so fast. You might be able to build a 10 ghz 8 bit CPU today but would you prefer a 3 ghz 64 bit or a 10 ghz 8 bit?  Outside of benchmarks the speed limits are more about moving data to and from the cache and main memory. There are other limits too and those are also controlled by the speed of light.  A foot is about a nano-light second which means a 1 ghz signal can only travel to another device and back to no more than 6 inches. At 5 ghz, that distance is not much past the edge of the chip substrate.


Whew

Had to put the beer away after that.  Lolzz
 
2022-10-03 10:51:48 AM  

madgonad: DON.MAC: ecc ram.

Just an FYI, because not everybody is aware, DDR5 memory (that AMD's new chips have kind of forced us into) is ECC memory. So tell yourself that when you have to pay a little bit more than DDR4. You are getting the valuable ECC function.


Doesnt ecc slow ram down??
 
2022-10-03 10:53:57 AM  

DON.MAC: madgonad: DON.MAC: ecc ram.

Just an FYI, because not everybody is aware, DDR5 memory (that AMD's new chips have kind of forced us into) is ECC memory. So tell yourself that when you have to pay a little bit more than DDR4. You are getting the valuable ECC function.

About a month ago there was a solar flare that hit the southern hemisphere.  We lost more disks in a day than in a year and I've been hearing about others in the same situation.  The old sun gear and newer freebsd servers were  logging ecc errors and/or shutting down ram because of errors. There systems were happy to ignore the issue.  The older sparc systems have ecc error counters that you can get to via dtrace.  If the data has to be exact, you want ecc.


0.5 wont work when you need a 1 or a 0??

Wont ecc slow ram down some?
 
2022-10-03 10:58:34 AM  

Linux_Yes: Psychopusher: Nimbull: AMD is getting more power hungry chips but when you compare them to Intel's offering the power isn't as much of an increase as Intel does and Intel has e-cores to help keep things in check. Throw in better graphics from the AMD side with RDNA2 in the CPU and AMD does reach the level of "Shut up and take my money!'

The 13th gen Intel 13900K will have nominal 125-250W power draw with a potential peak of 350W(!!) in unlimited power mode (to reach that claimed 6GHz), so the 7950X isn't that bad by comparison.  And of course pricing is still well below Intel's.  I've only ever run one Intel system (P166MMX back in '98/99), and it's been AMD ever since, and I'm glad I stuck with them.

Just bought a ryzen 7 5700x 8/16 thread w a tdp of 65 watts for 250.


I was just a generation earlier, still rocking a 3700X.  Same 65W TDP, runs fine on the included Wraith air cooler even under prolonged load slightly OC'ed to 4.3GHz boost, though I do have a 240mm AIO in storage if I want to hook that up.
 
2022-10-03 11:01:29 AM  

madgonad: DON.MAC: ecc ram.

Just an FYI, because not everybody is aware, DDR5 memory (that AMD's new chips have kind of forced us into) is ECC memory. So tell yourself that when you have to pay a little bit more than DDR4. You are getting the valuable ECC function.


Not entirely accurate.  Yes, they have ECC, but it's not the same as you'd get from server-grade equipment:
Essentially, they had to put a localized ECC onto each module in order to get the density and speeds to function, but it does not correct past the module itself.  Any errors as a result of the transfer of data to and from the chip are not caught unless you get the fully qualified ECC version of DDR5.

It's better than nothing, granted, but it's still not a one-size-for-everything, and DDR5's current performance doesn't come close to justifying it's x2 price point yet.  There's still a very hefty early adopter tax on the technology.  Good DDR4 is not only cheaper, but should still last 4-5 years, which should be long enough for DDR5 to really mature and reach price parity.

/Source: What is DDR5? The PC's next-gen memory, explained | PCWorld
 
2022-10-03 11:45:22 AM  
I recently upgraded to a 12700K and now I have a PC and a really good space heater in the basement.
 
2022-10-03 11:47:54 AM  

Gubbo: What would count as useful to you


I have a Threadripper 3960. I'm actually using 68 PCIe lanes on it with two GPUs, an Infiniband HBA and a bunch of U.2 drives. My whole setup is in place to handle video and photo editing. DaVinci Resolve Studio more or less sits on a GPU the entire time it's running, so anything else I do that can make use of one needs to be directed to another. The Infiniband controller was a lot cheaper to get running and substantially faster than 10GbE; it's connected to my storage back end.

My workstation is a lot of computer but I'm trying to look forward, ideally to a future where I don't need a crazy workstation rig to do all this stuff. Desktop platforms get I/O improvements from increasing the PCIe generation but lately desktop systems are shipping with fewer expansion slots in general, but if I want dual GPU and high speed networking AND more than a couple fast drives, that's where I have to go.
 
2022-10-03 11:49:17 AM  
The 7950 is winning for the moment, then intel will release the 13900k and take back the crown, then AMD will release the 8950 and take back the crown, and so on into infinity or until one of the companies collapses like the USSR.

/Running a 3600X in my PC
//Would like to upgrade, but no good reason to spend the money
///Three
 
2022-10-03 12:09:14 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


Blo-ted.  It's what's for dinner.
 
2022-10-03 12:38:34 PM  

madgonad: DON.MAC: ecc ram.

Just an FYI, because not everybody is aware, DDR5 memory (that AMD's new chips have kind of forced us into) is ECC memory. So tell yourself that when you have to pay a little bit more than DDR4. You are getting the valuable ECC function.


A while back i ran the first generation of single core dual Opteron AMD CPUs as my daily use/gaming rig.
ECC on that and the RAM at the time made my system a fair bit pricier than my buddy's desktop intel chip to be sure.

He always loaded in a little bit faster than i did for games. but i never ever once in the  life of the system hard locked. A game might crash to the desktop, but the system stability was unlike anything i had ever experienced, and well worth waiting a whole extra 1-2 seconds or whatever on processing/load times.
 
2022-10-03 12:57:11 PM  

Linux_Yes: madgonad: DON.MAC: ecc ram.

Just an FYI, because not everybody is aware, DDR5 memory (that AMD's new chips have kind of forced us into) is ECC memory. So tell yourself that when you have to pay a little bit more than DDR4. You are getting the valuable ECC function.

Doesnt ecc slow ram down??


Previously, yes. The ECC chip is an integral part of DDR5.
 
2022-10-03 4:20:48 PM  

Ethertap: The 7950 is winning for the moment, then intel will release the 13900k and take back the crown, then AMD will release the 8950 and take back the crown, and so on into infinity or until one of the companies collapses like the USSR.

/Running a 3600X in my PC
//Would like to upgrade, but no good reason to spend the money
///Three


It might also be the 7950X with 3D v-cache or some such nonesense like they did with the 5800X 3D (which still outperforms the 7950 in some gaming tests).
It's nice to see AMD delivering on their proclamations that Ryzen would age like fine wine over the years and just get better and better.

/Ryzen 2700
//Tempted to upgrade also, but just too cheap and B series boards haven't been released yet.
///obligatory stuff
 
2022-10-03 5:35:04 PM  

yakmans_dad: I read that for some reason. I had quit reading CPU reviews 15(?) years ago. Or more. At that point, the consensus was that CPU clock speeds were maxed around 3.5ghz. So. easy question. When did the clock speeds move? Or was the idea that they were frozen just ballz to begin with?


Yes but no but kinda. Fifteen years ago, yeah, 3.5 GHz was kind of a soft upper limit on speed (NetBurst, and later Bulldozer, could go higher, but at the cost of IPC) at the 65 and 45 nm processes in use at that time. But as time went on, process size shrank.

To oversimplify, as transistor size goes down, power usage goes down at the same clock speed, as it takes less power to make the transistors switch. Put another way, for the same power usage, you can have a higher potential clock speed (or more transistors, or both). Of course, as power usage goes up, heat goes up, and too much heat will damage the processor, but as long as you can get rid of the heat, you can increase the speed. You also need to be able to supply the power as well, and fifteen-year-old motherboards don't have the extra connectors to do that (my AM3 board has an 8 pin, and my AM4 has an 8 and a 4).

So if we were still running on 65 nm, yeah, we'd probably be stuck at sub-4 GHz speeds still (and probably nine-digit transistor counts), but Ryzen 7000 is on TSMC's 5 nm process, so seven generations hence, and is apparently comfortable running at high temperatures (95 °C) more or less indefinitely, so it'll just crank the speed up as needed to whatever the cooling system can handle, which is in the mid-5 GHz range.
 
2022-10-03 5:57:29 PM  

Linux_Yes: madgonad: DON.MAC: ecc ram.

Just an FYI, because not everybody is aware, DDR5 memory (that AMD's new chips have kind of forced us into) is ECC memory. So tell yourself that when you have to pay a little bit more than DDR4. You are getting the valuable ECC function.

Doesnt ecc slow ram down??


It depends on how it is done.  The last sparc systems created the ECC at the register level and the rest of the storage pipeline just moved the extra bits so there was no slow down.  Earlier ones did it at the cache write stage and there were benchmarks to show a slowdown but it was like a one word sized write delay.  Other systems put an ECC checker between the ram and cache memory controller so writing memory was slowed down via ECC pipeline but since that was cache line writes, you wouldn't notice except during bulk memory copies but errors in the cache were propagated.  The Ryzen appears to have ECC checking at the cache level. ECC is real easy to generate so on the chip it is a row of xor gates producing their output or check one cycle behind what is feeding them.  So the answer is yes, it slows it down but not enough to notice even with benchmarks.

The easy way to test it is to overclock your ram and run something like memtest86.  Windows and Linux at this time don't seem to do much with ecc errors other than count them.  I've been told some BSDs will memfault the process.  Sol11 will attempt to reload the cache in some cases. Solaris and AIX used to be able to map out sticks of ram long ago but most modern systems have a pair that are bonded so there isn't much that can be done.
 
2022-10-03 10:33:53 PM  
The 7950X3D will be out in time for me to spend my tax return on a new system, and the prices should be more reasonable on RAM and motherboards.

I will say, though, if you ARE building a system now, Microcenter is giving customers 32GB of DDR5-5600 RAM ($180 savings), plus if you buy a CPU/MB combo, it's another $40 savings. Not a bad deal.
 
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