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(Some Guy)   Kyrgyzstan to adopt Latin alphabet, most likely going to resemble Welsh in spelling   (polskieradio.pl) divider line
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2404 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 30 Sep 2022 at 6:01 PM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-09-30 2:09:28 PM  
The Cyrillic alphabet or use of Cyrillic is superior in some ways.  For instance, Cyrillic writing is consistently pronounced.  You may not know what the words mean but even as a foreigner you can quickly learn how to pronounce things written in Cyrillic as the same combination of letters always have the same sound.

Languages based on Latin letters have much more variations in pronunciation even when the letter combinations are the same especially for English.  The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.
 
2022-09-30 5:48:20 PM  
Welsh
 
2022-09-30 6:02:25 PM  

puffy999: Welsh


Yeah that was my bad.
 
2022-09-30 6:03:35 PM  

mrshowrules: The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.


What do you mean only half?

/plus the vast heap of homonyms
 
2022-09-30 6:03:50 PM  

puffy999: Welsh


The rest of us still won't have to fight over vowels.
 
2022-09-30 6:04:28 PM  

mrshowrules: The Cyrillic alphabet or use of Cyrillic is superior in some ways.  For instance, Cyrillic writing is consistently pronounced.  You may not know what the words mean but even as a foreigner you can quickly learn how to pronounce things written in Cyrillic as the same combination of letters always have the same sound.

Languages based on Latin letters have much more variations in pronunciation even when the letter combinations are the same especially for English.  The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.


And they use the Latin alphabet for non-romance languages too, such as Pinyin, but change the sounds of nearly every letter.
 
2022-09-30 6:05:03 PM  
We should reward this turn toward the West by donating some vowels to them.
 
2022-09-30 6:07:49 PM  
It's Greek 2.0
 
2022-09-30 6:09:14 PM  
Valde nice!
 
2022-09-30 6:12:39 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-09-30 6:13:58 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-09-30 6:14:28 PM  
In a very similar way Mongolia is abandoning the Cyrillic alphabet as an unwelcome relic of colonialist oppression.
 
2022-09-30 6:14:37 PM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: mrshowrules: The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.

What do you mean only half?

/plus the vast heap of homonyms


Hell, the letter G alone... Signs sighted signal that massaging giraffes, though thoughtful, gets tough.
 
2022-09-30 6:16:57 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-09-30 6:18:45 PM  

anuran: In a very similar way Mongolia is abandoning the Cyrillic alphabet as an unwelcome relic of colonialist oppression.


What are they moving to? Latin alphabet as well?
 
2022-09-30 6:18:55 PM  
y
 
2022-09-30 6:19:23 PM  
"Russkiy Mir is falling apart," niezalezna.pl added.

Yeah, "pax Russica" was kaput when the tanks rolled into Ukraine.
 
2022-09-30 6:20:15 PM  
not bloody likely
 
2022-09-30 6:21:17 PM  

mrshowrules: The Cyrillic alphabet or use of Cyrillic is superior in some ways.  For instance, Cyrillic writing is consistently pronounced.  You may not know what the words mean but even as a foreigner you can quickly learn how to pronounce things written in Cyrillic as the same combination of letters always have the same sound.

Languages based on Latin letters have much more variations in pronunciation even when the letter combinations are the same especially for English.  The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.


In Russian, 'o' declines to 'a' if the letter is not stressed.  So there goes the consistency.
 
2022-09-30 6:31:39 PM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: mrshowrules: The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.

What do you mean only half?

/plus the vast heap of homonyms


This.  Vowels in English have almost no relation to their actual sound.  Case in point for the IPA letter "aː" (open front unrounded vowel):
a       father
a...e   garage
aa      salaam
aae     baaed
aah     aah
ah      blah
au      aunt
e       sergeant
ea      heart

Meanwhile, the IPA sound aɪ has 27 different spellings in English.
 
2022-09-30 6:34:31 PM  
The Irish reformed the language recently.  Scot's Gaelic, quite similar to Irish, didn't.  Each word is a road map of how to get from one group of vowels to the next using long detours.  Welsh, unlike either, can have an automated pronunciation.  Duolingo Welsh is a talking computer.

This current recently Soviet extreme eastern bloc country has different problems.

The crazy thing about Kyrgyz is that until 1928 it used the Arabic Persian script, fine tuned and added to for the special sounds outside of ordinary Arabic or Persian.   So now, in 2022, they're switching again.
Fark user image
The Russians forced Cyrillic then.  The Turks, on the other hand, started using Latin script about the same from Arabic-Persian script.   The Chinese use Latin script to teach small children the recording of Chinese, before they tackle the Chinese character systems.

Kyrgyz is a Turkic language.

Now, for the second time in 100 years, the language will be written in yet a third script.  Luckily, Uzbek, Kyrgyz and other Turkic language have Turkey's 100 year old  head start.   It's like switch cell phone contract, with someone buying out the old contract to make the change easier.

This is important because each change really does drop out certain sounds, accents, dialect -- like going from analog to digital.

The other thing is a country's history is written.  Now there will be students who are two writing systems behind in ever understanding their own culture, poets, songs from a century ago.

Imagine trying to read about your granddad's World War I experience or letters, and it's in a foreign language that no one reads anymore.

It's a way of definitely saying that the Russian experiment didn't work.
 
2022-09-30 6:35:05 PM  

mrshowrules: The Cyrillic alphabet or use of Cyrillic is superior in some ways.  For instance, Cyrillic writing is consistently pronounced.  You may not know what the words mean but even as a foreigner you can quickly learn how to pronounce things written in Cyrillic as the same combination of letters always have the same sound.

Languages based on Latin letters have much more variations in pronunciation even when the letter combinations are the same especially for English.  The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.


Chinese
 
2022-09-30 6:36:29 PM  

Dinjiin: Some Junkie Cosmonaut: mrshowrules: The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.

What do you mean only half?

/plus the vast heap of homonyms

This.  Vowels in English have almost no relation to their actual sound.  Case in point for the IPA letter "aː" (open front unrounded vowel):
a       father
a...e   garage
aa      salaam
aae     baaed
aah     aah
ah      blah
au      aunt
e       sergeant
ea      heart

Meanwhile, the IPA sound aɪ has 27 different spellings in English.


Yet another reason to throw all IPAs in the garbage
 
2022-09-30 6:36:34 PM  
Oh shiat. BEST FARK THREAD EVAR
 
2022-09-30 6:41:32 PM  

mrshowrules: Languages based on Latin letters have much more variations in pronunciation even when the letter combinations are the same especially for English.  The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.


Don't confuse English for Romance languages. In Spanish every letter has a specific sound, too. What you're railing against is not Roman letters but it's attempt to approximate Germanic pronunciation.
 
2022-09-30 6:47:21 PM  

BitwiseShift: The other thing is a country's history is written.  Now there will be students who are two writing systems behind in ever understanding their own culture, poets, songs from a century ago.

Imagine trying to read about your granddad's World War I experience or letters, and it's in a foreign language that no one reads anymore.


The same can be said for almost any other country, just on different time lines. Even English 150 years ago can be difficult for people, and reading various forms of cursive throughout history can be next to impossible. Germany was using Blackletter for a long time, and the cursive used in the first part of the 20th century is difficult to read even if you know German.
 
2022-09-30 6:47:49 PM  

Shaggy_C: mrshowrules: Languages based on Latin letters have much more variations in pronunciation even when the letter combinations are the same especially for English.  The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.

Don't confuse English for Romance languages. In Spanish every letter has a specific sound, too. What you're railing against is not Roman letters but it's attempt to approximate Germanic pronunciation.


Imperialism do be like that.
 
2022-09-30 6:50:52 PM  
Dammit I did have a better place to post this

I invented an alphabet for Ukraine using god-fearing American letters

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-09-30 6:51:05 PM  
Sounds like we need to get Operation Vowel Storm going again.  Get to it, Blinkin!


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-09-30 6:51:14 PM  

BitwiseShift: The Irish reformed the language recently.  Scot's Gaelic, quite similar to Irish, didn't.  Each word is a road map of how to get from one group of vowels to the next using long detours.  Welsh, unlike either, can have an automated pronunciation.  Duolingo Welsh is a talking computer.

This current recently Soviet extreme eastern bloc country has different problems.

The crazy thing about Kyrgyz is that until 1928 it used the Arabic Persian script, fine tuned and added to for the special sounds outside of ordinary Arabic or Persian.   So now, in 2022, they're switching again.
[Fark user image 92x92]


Old Uyghur had its own writing system (a vertical script which formed the basis for classical Mongolian and Manchurian), then switched to the Perso-Arabic script around the 10th century.

In the early 20th century, due to Pan-Turkism and the USSR, there were attempts at both Latinization and Cyrillicization (there's a Uyghur minority in Kazakhstan), depending upon where the Uyghurs were living. The Latinization never caught on. Uyghurs in China use a kind of reformed Perso-Arabic script which was standardized around 1980.

Yeah, I studied Uyghur. It was challenging.
 
2022-09-30 6:51:39 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-09-30 6:52:11 PM  

mrshowrules: The Cyrillic alphabet or use of Cyrillic is superior in some ways.  For instance, Cyrillic writing is consistently pronounced.  You may not know what the words mean but even as a foreigner you can quickly learn how to pronounce things written in Cyrillic as the same combination of letters always have the same sound.

Languages based on Latin letters have much more variations in pronunciation even when the letter combinations are the same especially for English.  The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.


Oh yeah??  Then how do you pronounce a cyrillic "O"?
 
2022-09-30 6:53:37 PM  
This recalls an old Yiddish proverb: A language is a dialect with a navy. Considering that the Russian Navy is a joke even amongst the other Russian paper-bear armed services, that puts the whole language and it's alphabet on thin-ice. Not very common for countries to bail on alphabets.

Putin will probably decry this with some new insane Russophobic conspiracy theory

The Nazis are behind this, I guarantee it. St. Cyril should heed our prayers and strike them down. The cursed letters of our would-be colonizers betray them here: A to Z, it's right in the name Nazi! Do you not see it?
 
2022-09-30 6:55:53 PM  

mrshowrules: The Cyrillic alphabet or use of Cyrillic is superior in some ways.  For instance, Cyrillic writing is consistently pronounced.  You may not know what the words mean but even as a foreigner you can quickly learn how to pronounce things written in Cyrillic as the same combination of letters always have the same sound.

Languages based on Latin letters have much more variations in pronunciation even when the letter combinations are the same especially for English.  The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.


I think you are conflating glyphs that represent sounds (aka an alphabet) with English orthography.

Any languages can be consistently described in the Latin alphabet with the possible combination of characters (the "hl" sound in isiZulu) or diacritics for intonation (báhn mì) or convenience (ü vs ue in German) and the sound can be interpreted by non-native speakers as an accurate, consistent sound.

It is just that us English speakers prefur  tu yuz rkaik spelingz lest we luk lik dum assez (or Trump suporterz).
 
2022-09-30 6:57:30 PM  

Roastbeast Sammich: BitwiseShift: The Irish reformed the language recently.  Scot's Gaelic, quite similar to Irish, didn't.  Each word is a road map of how to get from one group of vowels to the next using long detours.  Welsh, unlike either, can have an automated pronunciation.  Duolingo Welsh is a talking computer.

This current recently Soviet extreme eastern bloc country has different problems.

The crazy thing about Kyrgyz is that until 1928 it used the Arabic Persian script, fine tuned and added to for the special sounds outside of ordinary Arabic or Persian.   So now, in 2022, they're switching again.
[Fark user image 92x92]

Old Uyghur had its own writing system (a vertical script which formed the basis for classical Mongolian and Manchurian), then switched to the Perso-Arabic script around the 10th century.

In the early 20th century, due to Pan-Turkism and the USSR, there were attempts at both Latinization and Cyrillicization (there's a Uyghur minority in Kazakhstan), depending upon where the Uyghurs were living. The Latinization never caught on. Uyghurs in China use a kind of reformed Perso-Arabic script which was standardized around 1980.

Yeah, I studied Uyghur. It was challenging.


The literacy rate was probably so low during those other shifts that changing the alphabet probably didn't impact people's day-to-day lives that much. After all, they still spoke the same words.
 
2022-09-30 7:01:07 PM  

austerity101: BitwiseShift: The other thing is a country's history is written.  Now there will be students who are two writing systems behind in ever understanding their own culture, poets, songs from a century ago.

Imagine trying to read about your granddad's World War I experience or letters, and it's in a foreign language that no one reads anymore.

The same can be said for almost any other country, just on different time lines. Even English 150 years ago can be difficult for people, and reading various forms of cursive throughout history can be next to impossible. Germany was using Blackletter for a long time, and the cursive used in the first part of the 20th century is difficult to read even if you know German.


This.  I encountered Kurrentschrift when researching family genealogy and it was basically unreadable.  One government archive I looked into required that you show proof of understanding in order to gain unattended access.  They basically said, "it would be a waste of everyone's time if you couldn't read old cursive".
 
2022-09-30 7:01:40 PM  
I been saying this all along about the Ukes. These guys get it.
 
2022-09-30 7:02:49 PM  
They've been wanting to kick that Russian script  to the curb for a long time.

"Kyrgyz was originally written in Göktürk script, gradually replaced by the Perso-Arabic alphabet (in use until 1928 in the USSR, still in use in China). Between 1928 and 1940 a Latin-script alphabet, the Uniform Turkic Alphabet, was used.

In 1940, Soviet authorities replaced the Latin script with the Cyrillic alphabet for all Turkic countries. When Kyrgyzstan became independent following the Soviet Union's collapse in 1991, a plan to adopt the Latin alphabet became popular. Although the plan has not been implemented, it remains in occasional discussion."
 
2022-09-30 7:16:16 PM  
This is one of those threads which I really love Fark for. I learn shiat here that otherwise I likely would never do.
 
2022-09-30 7:18:57 PM  
Tchicherine probably doesn't care.
 
2022-09-30 7:44:51 PM  

Dinjiin: Some Junkie Cosmonaut: mrshowrules: The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.

What do you mean only half?

/plus the vast heap of homonyms

This.  Vowels in English have almost no relation to their actual sound.  Case in point for the IPA letter "aː" (open front unrounded vowel):
a       father
a...e   garage
aa      salaam
aae     baaed
aah     aah
ah      blah
au      aunt
e       sergeant
ea      heart

Meanwhile, the IPA sound aɪ has 27 different spellings in English.


The big reason for this is because English hasn't had spelling reform in like 400+ years while vowels have continued to shift and evolve over time.
 
2022-09-30 7:56:44 PM  

mrshowrules: The Cyrillic alphabet or use of Cyrillic is superior in some ways.  For instance, Cyrillic writing is consistently pronounced.  You may not know what the words mean but even as a foreigner you can quickly learn how to pronounce things written in Cyrillic as the same combination of letters always have the same sound.

Languages based on Latin letters have much more variations in pronunciation even when the letter combinations are the same especially for English.  The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.


This is one reason to prefer the Roman alphabet.  It preserves more etymology and history, rather than being a boring record of spoken noises.
 
2022-09-30 7:57:43 PM  

Nintenfreak: Dinjiin: Some Junkie Cosmonaut: mrshowrules: The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.


The printing press arrived in England at the worst possible time for the English language.
 
2022-09-30 7:58:30 PM  

Dinjiin: austerity101: BitwiseShift: The other thing is a country's history is written.  Now there will be students who are two writing systems behind in ever understanding their own culture, poets, songs from a century ago.

Imagine trying to read about your granddad's World War I experience or letters, and it's in a foreign language that no one reads anymore.

The same can be said for almost any other country, just on different time lines. Even English 150 years ago can be difficult for people, and reading various forms of cursive throughout history can be next to impossible. Germany was using Blackletter for a long time, and the cursive used in the first part of the 20th century is difficult to read even if you know German.

This.  I encountered Kurrentschrift when researching family genealogy and it was basically unreadable.  One government archive I looked into required that you show proof of understanding in order to gain unattended access.  They basically said, "it would be a waste of everyone's time if you couldn't read old cursive".


English from 150 years ago really shouldn't be difficult; you have to really look for the differences.  German, on the other hand, went through Fraktur... but at least that's over with now.
 
2022-09-30 8:06:09 PM  
Wow, that's a Jordan Peterson-esque gender ratio on the stage at that literary event.

pbs.twimg.comView Full Size
 
2022-09-30 8:15:52 PM  

Arachnophobe: [Fark user image image 425x321]


There's no getting drunk in that.
 
2022-09-30 8:18:28 PM  

Nintenfreak: Dinjiin: Some Junkie Cosmonaut: mrshowrules: The pronunciation is a guessing game half of the time.

What do you mean only half?

/plus the vast heap of homonyms

This.  Vowels in English have almost no relation to their actual sound.  Case in point for the IPA letter "aː" (open front unrounded vowel):
a       father
a...e   garage
aa      salaam
aae     baaed
aah     aah
ah      blah
au      aunt
e       sergeant
ea      heart

Meanwhile, the IPA sound aɪ has 27 different spellings in English.

The big reason for this is because English hasn't had spelling reform in like 400+ years while vowels have continued to shift and evolve over time.


homophones? English laughs at orthography.

Oh, I don't know how but the bough held the doe while I was kneading the dough in a bowl wrapped in a bow between my knees.

I thought I had bought enough boughs to thoroughly stop the rough coughing so we ought to plough now.
 
2022-09-30 8:26:36 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-09-30 8:28:31 PM  
Imagine hating Russia so much that you change your alphabet to not be like them.

Holy shiat.
 
2022-09-30 8:41:05 PM  

FnkyTwn: Imagine hating Russia so much that you change your alphabet to not be like them.

Holy shiat.


And/or not wanting them to use your alphabet as an excuse to come "liberate" you to death.
 
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