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(Ars Technica)   Minor: you can't sue me for violating Bungie's anti-cheat clause of the license since I disaffirm. Bungie: fine, now you're in violation of the whole contract   (arstechnica.com) divider line
    More: Dumbass, Contract, Fair use, Copyright infringement, Public domain, game's license agreement, Copyright, Copyright law, Bungie's Limited Software License Agreement  
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1424 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 29 Sep 2022 at 12:05 PM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



43 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-09-29 9:14:06 AM  
Interesting.
 
2022-09-29 11:16:17 AM  
Man, being a serial cheater and a lawsuit happy ultra entitled prick - all before he turns 18?
What's left for an encore, conservative politics?
 
2022-09-29 11:22:01 AM  
Thought this seemed familiar. Dude is a psycho who threatened  Bungie employees. Earlier article on this Douche Canoe
I hope this kid is on watchlists, because he's a menace.
 
2022-09-29 12:24:32 PM  

BizarreMan: Interesting.


I would say obvious. Without agreeing to the licence you have no rights to the software. Being a minor isn't a 'laws don't apply to me' state.
 
2022-09-29 12:36:38 PM  
Inb4 self-proclaimed neurodivergence.
 
2022-09-29 12:48:59 PM  
Imagine getting sued because you cheated in a video game!

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-09-29 12:52:13 PM  

SMB2811: BizarreMan: Interesting.

I would say obvious. Without agreeing to the licence you have no rights to the software. Being a minor isn't a 'laws don't apply to me' state.


Counterpoint:

The Offspring - "Come Out And Play"
Youtube 1jOk8dk-qaU
 
2022-09-29 12:54:35 PM  

logieal: SMB2811: BizarreMan: Interesting.

I would say obvious. Without agreeing to the licence you have no rights to the software. Being a minor isn't a 'laws don't apply to me' state.

Counterpoint:

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/1jOk8dk-qaU]


Crap, that works, but meant to post this one:

Jane's Addiction - Been Caught Stealing (Official Music Video) | Warner Vault
Youtube jrwjiO1MCVs
 
2022-09-29 1:07:25 PM  

Private_Citizen: Man, being a serial cheater and a lawsuit happy ultra entitled prick - all before he turns 18?
What's left for an encore, conservative politics?


It's like a Jacob Wohl origin story, if he had any brains to begin with.
 
2022-09-29 1:30:09 PM  

Wine Sipping Elitist: Imagine getting sued because you cheated in a video game!

[Fark user image 425x183] [View Full Size image _x_]


Well that's one way of downplaying it

All those misdeeds aside, it seems that it was Leone's pattern of harassment and threats toward Bungie employees that escalated his case from a moderation issue to a legal matter. That includes tweets in which Leone warned that Bungie Community Manager Dylan Gaffner "is not safe" (including a picture of Gaffner's Bungie employee badge); where he offered to commit arson at a discount rate "if it's [at] bungie hq"; and where he said that Bungie should "keep your doors locked."

Probably shouldn't be surprised that the kid might've done something to earn him worse charges, doesn't seem like he makes a lot of great choices.
 
2022-09-29 1:31:38 PM  
Is this kid representing himself?
 
2022-09-29 1:31:55 PM  
NormMcDonaldWeekendUpdate.jpg
 
2022-09-29 1:32:51 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: Wine Sipping Elitist: Imagine getting sued because you cheated in a video game!

[Fark user image 425x183] [View Full Size image _x_]

Well that's one way of downplaying it

All those misdeeds aside, it seems that it was Leone's pattern of harassment and threats toward Bungie employees that escalated his case from a moderation issue to a legal matter. That includes tweets in which Leone warned that Bungie Community Manager Dylan Gaffner "is not safe" (including a picture of Gaffner's Bungie employee badge); where he offered to commit arson at a discount rate "if it's [at] bungie hq"; and where he said that Bungie should "keep your doors locked."

Probably shouldn't be surprised that the kid might've done something to earn him worse charges, doesn't seem like he makes a lot of great choices.


pbs.twimg.comView Full Size
 
2022-09-29 1:39:38 PM  

BeesNuts: NormMcDonaldWeekendUpdate.jpg


No, I don't think so. That dipshiat is actually making the game company look like the victims.
 
2022-09-29 1:42:20 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: Wine Sipping Elitist: Imagine getting sued because you cheated in a video game!

[Fark user image 425x183] [View Full Size image _x_]

Well that's one way of downplaying it

All those misdeeds aside, it seems that it was Leone's pattern of harassment and threats toward Bungie employees that escalated his case from a moderation issue to a legal matter. That includes tweets in which Leone warned that Bungie Community Manager Dylan Gaffner "is not safe" (including a picture of Gaffner's Bungie employee badge); where he offered to commit arson at a discount rate "if it's [at] bungie hq"; and where he said that Bungie should "keep your doors locked."

Probably shouldn't be surprised that the kid might've done something to earn him worse charges, doesn't seem like he makes a lot of great choices.


Oh wow, I missed that part. Let me revise:

Imagine threatening a gaming company because you suck so hard their game!
 
2022-09-29 1:42:46 PM  

Mr. Fuzzypaws: Is this kid representing himself?


I was thinking parent(s). And I don't think their well-adjusted child is pleased with this turn of events.
 
2022-09-29 1:45:07 PM  
I recently discovered the tacobot crowd and thought I'd hit a new low.  I need to stop being so optimistic.
 
2022-09-29 1:51:46 PM  
Future Sovereign Citizen.  Near future.
 
2022-09-29 2:38:38 PM  

Private_Citizen: Man, being a serial cheater and a lawsuit happy ultra entitled prick - all before he turns 18?
What's left for an encore, conservative politics?


How is he lawsuit happy, he was sued?

(He is a douche though)
 
2022-09-29 3:14:33 PM  

Wine Sipping Elitist: Imagine getting sued because you cheated in a video game!


wrong POV to understand the truth of the situation.

imagine getting sued, because a corporation can claim you harmed their profit margin.


yeah, it ain't "just a game" from their POV, that's the revenue buddy.
 
2022-09-29 4:01:00 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: Wine Sipping Elitist: Imagine getting sued because you cheated in a video game!

[Fark user image 425x183] [View Full Size image _x_]

Well that's one way of downplaying it

All those misdeeds aside, it seems that it was Leone's pattern of harassment and threats toward Bungie employees that escalated his case from a moderation issue to a legal matter. That includes tweets in which Leone warned that Bungie Community Manager Dylan Gaffner "is not safe" (including a picture of Gaffner's Bungie employee badge); where he offered to commit arson at a discount rate "if it's [at] bungie hq"; and where he said that Bungie should "keep your doors locked."

Probably shouldn't be surprised that the kid might've done something to earn him worse charges, doesn't seem like he makes a lot of great choices.


Leone is getting larger, and Leeroy Jenkins is getting better
 
2022-09-29 4:04:27 PM  

PvtStash: Wine Sipping Elitist: Imagine getting sued because you cheated in a video game!

wrong POV to understand the truth of the situation.

imagine getting sued, because a corporation can claim you harmed their profit margin.


yeah, it ain't "just a game" from their POV, that's the revenue buddy.


Imagine defending an incel just to stick it to the company
 
2022-09-29 4:58:23 PM  
This had me thinking...

I don't understand why we don't require a license agreement BEFORE buying a game instead of after. It seems to me, that the moment you give them money, you have bought a license to play the game. Imagine having to do this with physical media. It makes no sense.

I guess it's not that much different than being kicked out of a movie theater after causing a commotion.

Regardless, the whole modern software ecosystem is broken as hell.


/I don't need to be told how copyright law works, my whole point is that it's dumb.
 
2022-09-29 5:22:22 PM  

Perlin Noise: This had me thinking...

I don't understand why we don't require a license agreement BEFORE buying a game instead of after. It seems to me, that the moment you give them money, you have bought a license to play the game. Imagine having to do this with physical media. It makes no sense.

I guess it's not that much different than being kicked out of a movie theater after causing a commotion.

Regardless, the whole modern software ecosystem is broken as hell.


/I don't need to be told how copyright law works, my whole point is that it's dumb.


I think it's because that was how it was always done? I mean, back when getting the software involved getting a box, opening it, removing the media and shoving it into your PC somehow. While I'm sure the software companies would've been happy to force you to agree to the ToS/License at the checkout stand of Walmart, I doubt Walmart wanted anything to do with that. Now that there are virtual storefronts run by the company selling downloads, they could front-load that agreement, but they've always done it the other way...
 
2022-09-29 5:58:22 PM  

Perlin Noise: This had me thinking...

I don't understand why we don't require a license agreement BEFORE buying a game instead of after. It seems to me, that the moment you give them money, you have bought a license to play the game. Imagine having to do this with physical media. It makes no sense.

I guess it's not that much different than being kicked out of a movie theater after causing a commotion.

Regardless, the whole modern software ecosystem is broken as hell.


/I don't need to be told how copyright law works, my whole point is that it's dumb.


You don't. You give the vendor money to download or for physical media which contains a copy of the game. The license agreement is between you and the publisher not between you and the store.

It's radically different than being kicked out of a movie theater. This person would've been in way more legal trouble if they got kicked out of a theater for showing other people how to make a commotion in the game and continuing to sneak back into the theater to sell people movie extras while threatening the theater staff. Even then the theater is selling you access only so it's not great because it's the studio in this case that is restricting access.
 
2022-09-29 6:03:46 PM  

Bootleg: Perlin Noise: This had me thinking...

I don't understand why we don't require a license agreement BEFORE buying a game instead of after. It seems to me, that the moment you give them money, you have bought a license to play the game. Imagine having to do this with physical media. It makes no sense.

I guess it's not that much different than being kicked out of a movie theater after causing a commotion.

Regardless, the whole modern software ecosystem is broken as hell.


/I don't need to be told how copyright law works, my whole point is that it's dumb.

I think it's because that was how it was always done? I mean, back when getting the software involved getting a box, opening it, removing the media and shoving it into your PC somehow. While I'm sure the software companies would've been happy to force you to agree to the ToS/License at the checkout stand of Walmart, I doubt Walmart wanted anything to do with that. Now that there are virtual storefronts run by the company selling downloads, they could front-load that agreement, but they've always done it the other way...


The TOS/License was either in the manual that came with the game or screen most people skipped past. Typically involved language that stated 'by using this product you are agreeing that...'
 
2022-09-29 6:20:18 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: Bootleg: Perlin Noise: This had me thinking...

I don't understand why we don't require a license agreement BEFORE buying a game instead of after. It seems to me, that the moment you give them money, you have bought a license to play the game. Imagine having to do this with physical media. It makes no sense.

I guess it's not that much different than being kicked out of a movie theater after causing a commotion.

Regardless, the whole modern software ecosystem is broken as hell.


/I don't need to be told how copyright law works, my whole point is that it's dumb.

I think it's because that was how it was always done? I mean, back when getting the software involved getting a box, opening it, removing the media and shoving it into your PC somehow. While I'm sure the software companies would've been happy to force you to agree to the ToS/License at the checkout stand of Walmart, I doubt Walmart wanted anything to do with that. Now that there are virtual storefronts run by the company selling downloads, they could front-load that agreement, but they've always done it the other way...

The TOS/License was either in the manual that came with the game or screen most people skipped past. Typically involved language that stated 'by using this product you are agreeing that...'


Right, I meant to mention that, but apparently just skipped right over it while typing. My apologies.
 
2022-09-29 6:20:30 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: The TOS/License was either in the manual that came with the game or screen most people skipped past. Typically involved language that stated 'by using this product you are agreeing that...'



I think the point he's making is you have to pay for it TO read the TOS. But once you break the seal or install it you can't get a refund.
 
2022-09-29 6:50:01 PM  

Mr. Fuzzypaws: Lumbar Puncture: The TOS/License was either in the manual that came with the game or screen most people skipped past. Typically involved language that stated 'by using this product you are agreeing that...'


I think the point he's making is you have to pay for it TO read the TOS. But once you break the seal or install it you can't get a refund.


Depends on where you bought it from, you may be able to get a refund anyway. However, in the case of Destiny 2, the contract is available on the Bungie website, and Steam makes the EULA/SLA available before purchase as well via the store page
 
2022-09-29 6:54:47 PM  

Mr. Fuzzypaws: Lumbar Puncture: The TOS/License was either in the manual that came with the game or screen most people skipped past. Typically involved language that stated 'by using this product you are agreeing that...'


I think the point he's making is you have to pay for it TO read the TOS. But once you break the seal or install it you can't get a refund.


That's not different than anything else though, the TOS isn't between the buyer and the store, it's between the rights owners and the end users. If you buy a hair dryer it's going to have a usage agreement. The store is just the middleman, there's no liability for them other than whatever their return policy is.
 
2022-09-29 7:02:37 PM  
I got banned from Destiny 2 by Bungie. I was really new to the game too, maybe two weeks tops. I got the ban after an Internet outage so I always figured some weird truncated packet made it look like I was an elite haxx0r. There was zero recourse. They refused that explanation or any explanation at all. Meh. No shortage of games.

/ Especially fps shooters.
 
2022-09-29 7:41:55 PM  

Perlin Noise: This had me thinking...

I don't understand why we don't require a license agreement BEFORE buying a game instead of after. It seems to me, that the moment you give them money, you have bought a license to play the game. Imagine having to do this with physical media. It makes no sense.

I guess it's not that much different than being kicked out of a movie theater after causing a commotion.

Regardless, the whole modern software ecosystem is broken as hell.


/I don't need to be told how copyright law works, my whole point is that it's dumb.


Funny that...

On the Steam store page for Destiny 2
Fark user imageView Full Size


Clicky pops to a Destiny 2 EULA
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-09-29 8:33:20 PM  
This is what's called "sovereign citizen logic", where you think that contracts are magic and the wording is a mystical spell where saying the right words will magically make the law (or the agreement in this case) do something radically different than what it's facially intended to do.

In reality, what a written contract is is just two parties putting down in advance what they think an agreement means, so that in the case of a later dispute it can be referred back to.  It's a very important thing to keep in mind that what happens when the wording or semantic logic of the contract fails to define that, or even just fails in that one of the parties could not reasonably have had that interpretation, what ensues isn't a farking linguistic legalese rap-battle where you can triumph by citing better precedent.  What ensues is that because the parties cannot agree on what the agreement actually was, a civil court now has to decide for them.

And that civil court has real work to do and will probably be unamused by your bullshiat.  Absolute best possible case, they essentially interpret the dispute as something that genuinely can't be reconciled, void the contract entirely, and substitute something that's essentially a common-sense contract based on what such an agreement should normally mean if it's not possible to just un-do whatever the agreement did.

In fairness, it isn't always the little guy who's on the wrong end of this: software companies themselves famously have gotten in hot water for how they present EULA agreements, for instance, and no small number of courts actually have ruled that people simply weren't bound by the provisions at all because the companies failed to realistically require that they actually be read, keep them to reasonable length for the transaction in question, etc.  That's as common an example of Sovereign Citizen Logic as any actual SovCit nonsense: they thought their contract could magically protect them and got told to fark off because magically wording things a certain way can't farking glitch you into infinite legal power.

// This is why EULAs are much, much shorter nowadays, require an actual check-box instead of just an accept button, and require you to scroll through all of the text slow enough for the lines to be visible instead of skipping to the end.  Companies didn't do that because they were actually growing up and treating their customers with respect, that's the result of a bunch of amusingly disastrous lawsuits for several large software companies and a few nations straight-up classifying certain contracts as not legally valid by definition.  The current norms are actually the bleeding edge of the line of the level of deception they're legally allowed to get away with.
 
2022-09-29 9:54:31 PM  

Concrete Donkey: PvtStash: Wine Sipping Elitist: Imagine getting sued because you cheated in a video game!

wrong POV to understand the truth of the situation.

imagine getting sued, because a corporation can claim you harmed their profit margin.


yeah, it ain't "just a game" from their POV, that's the revenue buddy.

Imagine defending an incel just to stick it to the company



If you imagined i would defended an involuntary voluntarily not getting laid person, that's just how tone fails to come over the web in so few words.

I'm pointing out that the company only gives a rats about the profit really and the courts seem to also like to spend an inordinate amount of time on income over justice cases.


Now imagine someone saying they are involuntarily preforming a trickily voluntary act.
i know sounds like a right uneducated foll hun?
 
2022-09-29 9:55:44 PM  
auto-correct correction

trickily strictly voluntary act.
 
2022-09-29 11:52:51 PM  

PvtStash: Concrete Donkey: PvtStash: Wine Sipping Elitist: Imagine getting sued because you cheated in a video game!

wrong POV to understand the truth of the situation.

imagine getting sued, because a corporation can claim you harmed their profit margin.


yeah, it ain't "just a game" from their POV, that's the revenue buddy.

Imagine defending an incel just to stick it to the company


If you imagined i would defended an involuntary voluntarily not getting laid person, that's just how tone fails to come over the web in so few words.

I'm pointing out that the company only gives a rats about the profit really and the courts seem to also like to spend an inordinate amount of time on income over justice cases.


Now imagine someone saying they are involuntarily preforming a trickily voluntary act.
i know sounds like a right uneducated foll hun?


Did you miss the part where the little rage piggy was sending threats to Bungie employees?
 
2022-09-30 12:13:16 AM  

PvtStash: Wine Sipping Elitist: Imagine getting sued because you cheated in a video game!

wrong POV to understand the truth of the situation.

imagine getting sued, because a corporation can claim you harmed their profit margin.


yeah, it ain't "just a game" from their POV, that's the revenue buddy.


online multiplayer gaming depends on having people who want to play your game.

if 1 guy came in and basically destroyed everyone's sense of fun, then nobody plays the game and people lose jobs.

just because you're not affected doesn't mean other people arent affected
 
2022-09-30 1:26:48 AM  

Perlin Noise: This had me thinking...

I don't understand why we don't require a license agreement BEFORE buying a game instead of after. It seems to me, that the moment you give them money, you have bought a license to play the game. Imagine having to do this with physical media. It makes no sense.

I guess it's not that much different than being kicked out of a movie theater after causing a commotion.

Regardless, the whole modern software ecosystem is broken as hell.


/I don't need to be told how copyright law works, my whole point is that it's dumb.


D2 is free to play and online only so it goes hand in hand with a service account. Even if you had a hard copy disc of D2 you'd need the subsequent service accounts etc to play. It's more like the AOL free CD model where the software is free but getting online is not.

As a subscription service they also provide updates and software after the fact and I'm sure this protects that aspect as well. (Which also explains why this is needed for non-online only games since they want to protect future updates etc they may provide via patches etc)
 
2022-09-30 3:21:35 AM  

SMB2811: BizarreMan: Interesting.

I would say obvious. Without agreeing to the licence you have no rights to the software. Being a minor isn't a 'laws don't apply to me' state.


Is the defense that Bungie really wants to go with a "we like to think minors can enter into legal contracts" play?

Bold.
 
2022-09-30 4:46:20 AM  

Jim_Callahan: This is what's called "sovereign citizen logic"


Ha! I also came in here to complain about the notion of suing somebody for violating click-agreement TOS, but the reality is that this crazy stalker belongs in jail. Way to read the article/thread

Also, what is wrong with people nowadays? Who stalks game company employees because they had a bad online experience? Don't their parents have any shame?
 
2022-09-30 9:06:58 AM  
The Destiny 2 cheat tools that L.L. used, on the other hand, use "visual overlays incorporated into the game's displays" to create a legally distinct (and copyright infringing) derivative work, Bungie argues.

I remember back in WoW Retail's original WotLK expansion, there was an addon called AVR.  It did things similar to this, creating overlays that made then-annoying bosses like Hard Mode Professor Putricide trivial.  The addon itself ended up being banned, but nobody was sued over it.
 
2022-09-30 4:47:02 PM  

Perlin Noise: I don't understand why we don't require a license agreement BEFORE buying a game instead of after. It seems to me, that the moment you give them money, you have bought a license to play the game. Imagine having to do this with physical media. It makes no sense


Most services you can refund immediately. Steam lets you refund as long as you play any title under 2 hours, there are a couple speedrunners that even use this as a mechanic called "Refund %" So if you don't agree, you aren't out money.
 
2022-09-30 8:47:41 PM  

Wine Sipping Elitist: Imagine getting sued because you cheated in a video game!

[Fark user image image 425x183]


Imagine being so pathetic that you need to cheat in a video game
 
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