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(Yahoo)   "If it wasn't for the quantum measurement problem, nobody would be thinking that consciousness and quantum mechanics had anything to do with each other..." But there IS that pesky quantum measurement problem   (finance.yahoo.com) divider line
    More: Weird, Quantum mechanics, newly-created fields of quantum physics, quantum states, potential quantum consciousness connection, collapse of a wave function, Quantum Physics, Popular Mechanics, theoretical physicist  
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653 clicks; posted to STEM » on 17 Aug 2022 at 2:20 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-08-17 11:41:29 AM  
FTFA: Quantum Physics Could Finally Explain Consciousness, Scientists Say

*sigh* So much BS gets written (and consumed) on this topic.

Here's the sensible and skeptical take, also FTFA, that sums it up better than the long screed I was going to write:

"It's really hard to explain consciousness, it is a deep and abiding philosophical problem. So quantum physicists are desperate and those guys [cognitive scientists] are desperate over there too," [Jeffrey Barrett of UC Irvine] tells Popular Mechanics. "And they think that quantum mechanics is weird. Consciousness is weird. There might be some relationship between the two."

Lots of very, very smart physicists have been down this rabbit hole (including Penrose) and none of them have emerged looking anything but foolish. When you look closely all of these so-called explanations turn out to be mind-body dualism dressed up with scientific terminology, which as always has the problem of how does the non-physical mind influence the physical brain/body? Trust me, this is an infinitely bigger problem that the measurement so-called problem. At least we can probe the latter experimentally, and there are plenty of viable hypotheses to explore.
 
2022-08-17 2:29:21 PM  
Hits bong

What if... like, the entire point of the universe is boobs?  Just, you know, the pursuit of boobies?
 
2022-08-17 2:43:26 PM  
There's a TED talk about consciousness being a property of matter, like spin or charge, and everything has it on a scale from subatomic particle to human brains. . . or whole planets.  The more complex the system, the more integrated the information, the more consciousness it possesses.

and there's other weird associations between entropy and information theory. They're linked in ways we don't completely understand.  In the same way time, and our perception of it flowing in one direction are linked to entropy even as the laws of physics have no preferred direction of time.  Entropy does have a direction, and our consciousness seems to ride along with it, from its emergence at life, to its cease at death.

It's like an open question why we can't remember the future.

So consciousness seems to have something to do with information theory and entropy -- whether the mechanics are classical or quantum in nature, which is also an open question.
 
2022-08-17 2:48:43 PM  
"What if the act of observation with the human mind is actually causing the world to manifest changes , albeit on an incomprehensibly small scale?"

There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
 
2022-08-17 2:51:46 PM  

DarnoKonrad: There's a TED talk about consciousness being a property of matter, like spin or charge, and everything has it on a scale from subatomic particle to human brains. . . or whole planets.  The more complex the system, the more integrated the information, the more consciousness it possesses.


The eyes perceive light, ears sound, nose scents. The brain perceives thought and ideas passing through the Universe
 
2022-08-17 3:00:50 PM  

whither_apophis: DarnoKonrad: There's a TED talk about consciousness being a property of matter, like spin or charge, and everything has it on a scale from subatomic particle to human brains. . . or whole planets.  The more complex the system, the more integrated the information, the more consciousness it possesses.

The eyes perceive light, ears sound, nose scents. The brain perceives thought and ideas passing through the Universe



That just moves the question.  We know what emits sound and light.  What's emitting thoughts if our brains are sensory organs for gathering thoughts?  If consciousness is 'over there,' then what's generating it?
 
2022-08-17 3:20:12 PM  
Why do quantum states suddenly resolve when they're measured, making it at least superficially appear that observation by a conscious mind has the capacity to change the physical world?

This is completely incorrect, "observation" in quantum physics has nothing to do with consciousness. The author is an idiot.
 
2022-08-17 3:24:26 PM  

Nosatril: "What if the act of observation with the human mind is actually causing the world to manifest changes , albeit on an incomprehensibly small scale?"

There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.


There is a 3rd theory which states that the first two theories were created by a wily editor of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, in order to increase the amount of paranoia in the universe, and thus boost sales. This theory is the most likely, as The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is the only book with the words "Don't Panic" written in large, friendly letters on its cover.
 
2022-08-17 3:28:17 PM  
The QM -> consciousness stuff is just updated "god of the gaps" bullcrap. "Oh, we cant know this? Well then that's where the magic must be hiding!"

Is consciousness related to quantum mechanics? Of course, because everything is related to quantum mechanics.

"is the fact that processes on a quantum level are completely random."

This is not a fact. This is "anything can happen at any time for no reason" looney woo-woo. That is completely random, which the universe clearly isn't.

"Free will"

Shoot me. I minored in philosophy and could never find anyone willing to actually articulate what that meant or why it mattered*. The reason for this is simple: if it has a consequence, you can simply devise a test for the consequence and, in principle, answer the question. It doesn't have a consequence, then it's not a real thing. It would be, by definition, indistinguishable from something that is not real. This is like Deep Thought being constructed to provide an answer without a question.

*When it is articulated, it's something nonsensical like "if people don't have free will then how can we put them in prison?" as though this was being done for the purpose of some kind of divine revenge on people's indeterministic souls. On the bright side, philosophy classes were the easiest A's I ever earned. Minimal reading, barely any research, and the standards are so low that you can tear things apart with even basic consistency checks.
 
2022-08-17 3:49:32 PM  

falkone32: Is consciousness related to quantum mechanics? Of course, because everything is related to quantum mechanics.


It's deeper than that.  One of the reasons quantum computers are desirable is because they can simulate quantum systems, which classical computers can't with regular ol' logic gates -- at least not at any reasonable timeframe.

Likewise, it's important for AI researchers.  Can you create a human-like intelligence on x86 hardware, or does it take something far more exotic? Dunno.  But when you look at shiat like Dall• E, it sure doesn't look like you need bizarre states of matter to get very complex outputs.
 
2022-08-17 3:54:05 PM  
1. Wave functions and quantum superpositions are mathematical constructs that describe nature; they are not how nature literally works.

2. Free will is an illusion. The universe is deterministic and all outcomes depend on initial conditions. We just THINK we have free will because we have no good way to measure those initial conditions or calculate the outcomes.

3. "Measurement" is just an imprecise way to describe a physical interaction between two quantum entities. A wave function doesn't fail to collapse just because you forgot to observe it.

Fail journalism is fail.
 
2022-08-17 3:54:38 PM  
futurama: quantum finish
Youtube t5MohK5FHEY
 
2022-08-17 4:03:47 PM  
What would a schematic of the physics of "choice" look like?

We're made of particles which obey all the laws of physics. Unless there's a ghost in the machine -- as the ancient argument goes -- we lack free will.

The measurement problem is an epistemological issue -- the limits on knowledge -- not a choice issue.
 
2022-08-17 4:14:20 PM  
No.
 
2022-08-17 4:39:20 PM  
i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2022-08-17 4:45:32 PM  
 
2022-08-17 4:50:23 PM  

RagnarD: Not quantum: A Relativistic Theory of Consciousness


Maybe a TOE will emerge from both relativistic and quantum aspects of consciousness. A Reese's theory, if you will. (exhales..."ear")
 
2022-08-17 4:54:05 PM  

DarnoKonrad: whither_apophis: DarnoKonrad: There's a TED talk about consciousness being a property of matter, like spin or charge, and everything has it on a scale from subatomic particle to human brains. . . or whole planets.  The more complex the system, the more integrated the information, the more consciousness it possesses.

The eyes perceive light, ears sound, nose scents. The brain perceives thought and ideas passing through the Universe


That just moves the question.  We know what emits sound and light.  What's emitting thoughts if our brains are sensory organs for gathering thoughts?  If consciousness is 'over there,' then what's generating it?


They're like zero point fluctuations, like "plate" or "shrimp" or "plate of shrimp"
 
2022-08-17 7:43:41 PM  
lh3.googleusercontent.comView Full Size


Knows all about the quantum measurement problem.  Now, if you'd kindly look away...
 
2022-08-17 9:15:26 PM  

falkone32: Shoot me. I minored in philosophy and could never find anyone willing to actually articulate what that meant or why it mattered*.


Moral culpability. It bothered the writer of Exodus anyway. Yahweh, the omnipotent, forced the Pharaoh to do His will. And then punished him anyway. It's a terrible response but at least it showed that the author of Exodus was willing to grapple with the issue of evil and an omnipotent deity.

It appears to matter, on another level, because unless we have a say in the outcome of events we're simply lonely machines who feel pain. That would be a bummer.

People have raised the issue of free will and consciousness but I don't see the connection. I remember reading the epigram, "The mind is a drama with an audience of one." Consciousness may only be an attribute of matter, but since it takes place in matter, it needn't be anything else. Consciousness could be just one of matter's attributes like width and mass. No soul needed. No will. Nothing. Who knows? I've always taken consolation that deciding such things is well beyond my pay grade.
 
2022-08-17 11:38:18 PM  

yakmans_dad: falkone32: Shoot me. I minored in philosophy and could never find anyone willing to actually articulate what that meant or why it mattered*.

Moral culpability. It bothered the writer of Exodus anyway. Yahweh, the omnipotent, forced the Pharaoh to do His will. And then punished him anyway. It's a terrible response but at least it showed that the author of Exodus was willing to grapple with the issue of evil and an omnipotent deity.

It appears to matter, on another level, because unless we have a say in the outcome of events we're simply lonely machines who feel pain. That would be a bummer.

People have raised the issue of free will and consciousness but I don't see the connection. I remember reading the epigram, "The mind is a drama with an audience of one." Consciousness may only be an attribute of matter, but since it takes place in matter, it needn't be anything else. Consciousness could be just one of matter's attributes like width and mass. No soul needed. No will. Nothing. Who knows? I've always taken consolation that deciding such things is well beyond my pay grade.


It's probably the one really clever moment in the entire Matrix trilogy.

Neo: But you already know whether or not I'm going to take it.
Oracle: Wouldn't be much of an oracle of I didn't.
Neo: How can I make a choice if you already know what I'll do?
Oracle: Because you didn't come here to make a choice. You've already made it. You're here to try and understand WHY you made it.


Free will being an illusion -- and consciousness being purely an emergent property with no REAL causal power -- doesn't change what we are, what we do, or why we do it.
 
2022-08-18 8:33:35 AM  
Show me a single event in the brain that operates at quantum scales and I'll consider not slapping you for your ridiculous misinterpretation of quantum uncertainty and wave-particle duality.
 
2022-08-18 7:05:29 PM  

Glorious Golden Ass: Show me a single event in the brain that operates at quantum scales and I'll consider not slapping you for your ridiculous misinterpretation of quantum uncertainty and wave-particle duality.


any chemistry that occurs in the brain?
 
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