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(Salon)   Civilizations aren't murdered - they commit suicide. Happy Tuesday   (salon.com) divider line
    More: Awkward  
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4778 clicks; posted to Politics » and STEM » on 16 Aug 2022 at 8:33 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-08-16 7:26:30 AM  
Last?
 
2022-08-16 7:30:15 AM  
I think you mean last empire. Civilization is much broader than just one country.

And no, it's not.
 
2022-08-16 7:31:32 AM  
America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.
 
2022-08-16 7:31:40 AM  
No, just the latest.
 
2022-08-16 7:35:07 AM  
This would be a fun green because everyone would just be reacting to the headline and not the article.
 
2022-08-16 7:35:23 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.


Thats a hot take, and not real accurate.  Native Tribes weren't kind to one another, either.   They fought wars against each other, especially in the SouthWest, where there is tons of skeletal evidence for it.
 
2022-08-16 7:37:08 AM  
What a load of ignorant codswallop.
 
2022-08-16 7:40:00 AM  
Below this layer of shells was the body of another man, buried face downward. Around these two men were six more human remains, possibly retainers, who may have been put to death to accompany the entombed man in the afterlife. Nearby were buried the remains of 53 girls and women ranging in age from 15 to 30, laid out in rows in two layers separated by matting. They appeared to have been strangled to death.

Yeah great culture you had there.

/Place your whataboutisms below.
 
2022-08-16 7:41:18 AM  

raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.

Thats a hot take, and not real accurate.  Native Tribes weren't kind to one another, either.   They fought wars against each other, especially in the SouthWest, where there is tons of skeletal evidence for it.


Exporting our genocide doesn't make us more civilized. Plus our gun death rate, mass incarceration, and uncivilized economics...
 
2022-08-16 7:50:02 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.


No, they weren't.

From this article alone : "Around these two men were six more human remains, possibly retainers, who may have been put to death to accompany the entombed man in the afterlife. Nearby were buried the remains of 53 girls and women ranging in age from 15 to 30, laid out in rows in two layers separated by matting. They appeared to have been strangled to death."

Nothing ever changes.
 
2022-08-16 8:00:45 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.

Thats a hot take, and not real accurate.  Native Tribes weren't kind to one another, either.   They fought wars against each other, especially in the SouthWest, where there is tons of skeletal evidence for it.

Exporting our genocide doesn't make us more civilized. Plus our gun death rate, mass incarceration, and uncivilized economics...


Yeah, no.  You can't compare 1500s North America with today.
And Native Tribes were pretty brutal, they traded weapons, etc.  Shiat, some were slaveholders, too.
 
2022-08-16 8:05:12 AM  

raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.

Thats a hot take, and not real accurate.  Native Tribes weren't kind to one another, either.   They fought wars against each other, especially in the SouthWest, where there is tons of skeletal evidence for it.

Exporting our genocide doesn't make us more civilized. Plus our gun death rate, mass incarceration, and uncivilized economics...

Yeah, no.  You can't compare 1500s North America with today.
And Native Tribes were pretty brutal, they traded weapons, etc.  Shiat, some were slaveholders, too.


Sounds like they did a lot of stuff we do today. Did they also deliberately destroy their environment so that a very small few of them would benefit?
 
2022-08-16 8:06:11 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.


Well Bernie was on the same ship.
 
2022-08-16 8:06:50 AM  

raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.

Thats a hot take, and not real accurate.  Native Tribes weren't kind to one another, either.   They fought wars against each other, especially in the SouthWest, where there is tons of skeletal evidence for it.

Exporting our genocide doesn't make us more civilized. Plus our gun death rate, mass incarceration, and uncivilized economics...

Yeah, no.  You can't compare 1500s North America with today.
And Native Tribes were pretty brutal, they traded weapons, etc.  Shiat, some were slaveholders, too.


Stick to ancient Roman history sweetheart.
 
2022-08-16 8:08:03 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.

Thats a hot take, and not real accurate.  Native Tribes weren't kind to one another, either.   They fought wars against each other, especially in the SouthWest, where there is tons of skeletal evidence for it.

Exporting our genocide doesn't make us more civilized. Plus our gun death rate, mass incarceration, and uncivilized economics...

Yeah, no.  You can't compare 1500s North America with today.
And Native Tribes were pretty brutal, they traded weapons, etc.  Shiat, some were slaveholders, too.

Sounds like they did a lot of stuff we do today. Did they also deliberately destroy their environment so that a very small few of them would benefit?


Well, smog has been around the LA basin for, literally, thousands of years.  All those campfires, y'know.   😉
 
2022-08-16 8:09:04 AM  

Jake Havechek: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.

Thats a hot take, and not real accurate.  Native Tribes weren't kind to one another, either.   They fought wars against each other, especially in the SouthWest, where there is tons of skeletal evidence for it.

Exporting our genocide doesn't make us more civilized. Plus our gun death rate, mass incarceration, and uncivilized economics...

Yeah, no.  You can't compare 1500s North America with today.
And Native Tribes were pretty brutal, they traded weapons, etc.  Shiat, some were slaveholders, too.

Stick to ancient Roman history sweetheart.


I should!  Im out of my league when it comes to Narive history, in general.  🙃
 
2022-08-16 8:12:38 AM  
The Romans, the Portuguese, the Spanish, and the English all controlled the world's currency during the time they were world powers.  How did that work out for them in the long run?  They all ran up a massive pile of unsustainable debt and expenses that couldn't be paid off when revenue fell, and that was the end of it.

This feels familiar.
 
2022-08-16 8:12:38 AM  
Asking that question is, itself, the answer to why America will likely fail: arrogance.
 
2022-08-16 8:23:01 AM  

koder: Asking that question is, itself, the answer to why America will likely fail: arrogance.


America will not fail. We'll just go to the next evolution. Asia will rise as the new Economic power, but we're not going anywhere.
 
2022-08-16 8:26:41 AM  

JerseyTim: This would be a fun green because everyone would just be reacting to the headline and not the article.


Naaaailed it.
 
2022-08-16 8:28:06 AM  

JerseyTim: JerseyTim: This would be a fun green because everyone would just be reacting to the headline and not the article.

Naaaailed it.


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.comView Full Size
 
2022-08-16 8:32:33 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.

Thats a hot take, and not real accurate.  Native Tribes weren't kind to one another, either.   They fought wars against each other, especially in the SouthWest, where there is tons of skeletal evidence for it.

Exporting our genocide doesn't make us more civilized. Plus our gun death rate, mass incarceration, and uncivilized economics...

Yeah, no.  You can't compare 1500s North America with today.
And Native Tribes were pretty brutal, they traded weapons, etc.  Shiat, some were slaveholders, too.

Sounds like they did a lot of stuff we do today. Did they also deliberately destroy their environment so that a very small few of them would benefit?


I am kind of with you here. Ancient brutality among tribes or cultures ANYWHERE in the world could be, and often was brutal. But some of that was simply ignorance, or religion, etc. Now we are doing horrific things to each other with our eyes wide open, and knowing full well how evil we are behaving towards other people. And we keep doing it. 

That is FAR more repulsive and vile than disparate tribes fighting over limited resources.
 
2022-08-16 8:34:49 AM  
2001 Space Odyssey (1968) - Ape discovers tool...the bone club
Youtube RWCvMwivrDk
 
2022-08-16 8:35:31 AM  

NewportBarGuy: JerseyTim: JerseyTim: This would be a fun green because everyone would just be reacting to the headline and not the article.

Naaaailed it.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 197x151]


Well, now that it's changed, it's a moot point.
 
2022-08-16 8:37:09 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.


lol.
 
2022-08-16 8:38:10 AM  

JerseyTim: NewportBarGuy: JerseyTim: JerseyTim: This would be a fun green because everyone would just be reacting to the headline and not the article.

Naaaailed it.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 197x151]

Well, now that it's changed, it's a moot point.


For all intensive porpoises.
 
2022-08-16 8:40:01 AM  

Ambivalence: I think you mean last empire. Civilization is much broader than just one country.

And no, it's not.


So, China and Russia are forever?

Or are those not "empires"?
 
2022-08-16 8:40:09 AM  

adamgreeney: Now we are doing horrific things to each other with our eyes wide open


That seems an overly optimistic view; most people still apparently have willful blinders about a lot.
 
2022-08-16 8:43:10 AM  
Thankfully, not America. It will be the first to die of monumental, overpowering stupidity.
 
2022-08-16 8:43:55 AM  
I read the article.  The takeaway is that you're completely doomed and so...  so what?  This is like being lectured by a religious prophet about my sinful ways, but at least the prophet sells a solution.  This guy just says you're farked and there's nothing you can ever do about it.  OK.  Thanks.  I guess I'll just quit my job and scavenge scrap metal now.

cdn3.whatculture.comView Full Size
 
2022-08-16 8:45:19 AM  
miller explains the wierdness goin on
Youtube X4QKiYar9pI
 
2022-08-16 8:51:19 AM  
"America is not a young land: it is old and dirty and evil. Before the settlers, before the Indians... the evil was there... waiting."

-W.S. Burroughs
 
2022-08-16 8:51:31 AM  
I've been the the Etowah Mounds in Georgia.  They excavated one of the mounds in the 1960s and found these marble effigies inside.
Fark user imageView Full Size

The fish weir is also still in the river.  It's amazing to think that this is over 600 years old and it's still there.
Fark user imageView Full Size


When the Spanish arrived they asked the Cherokee and Muscogee what these mounds were for and they had an oral history that was simply "there were people who built those and they are gone now."  The mound builders kept no written records.  Etowah is a Muscogee work meaning "town".  So they knew there was a town there at one time, but that was pretty much it.
 
2022-08-16 9:01:51 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: Did they also deliberately destroy their environment so that a very small few of them would benefit?


Yes.  But due to their primitive technological level, damage was very regionally contained and generally temporary, and wealth disparity wasn't really significant.
 
2022-08-16 9:02:46 AM  

AppleOptionEsc: Ambivalence: I think you mean last empire. Civilization is much broader than just one country.

And no, it's not.

So, China and Russia are forever?

Or are those not "empires"?


The nature of our post-Westphalian political system is that Empires rise, eventually dissolve and become nation-states, with control of a territory they can control safely and any area they cant' control will become another nation-state or will be absorbed by another. Giant Balkanized masses of tiny nations like the HRE just aren't efficient enough to provide the services people expect, and will eventually collapse.
 
2022-08-16 9:03:55 AM  

WickerNipple: AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.

No, they weren't.

From this article alone : "Around these two men were six more human remains, possibly retainers, who may have been put to death to accompany the entombed man in the afterlife. Nearby were buried the remains of 53 girls and women ranging in age from 15 to 30, laid out in rows in two layers separated by matting. They appeared to have been strangled to death."

Nothing ever changes.


Conclusion: Humans are horrible, tribal, aggressive, selfish apes governed by their base instincts. So-called civilization will be a tiny blip in the history of our species, a brief anomaly before we finally make ourselves extinct as a species.
 
2022-08-16 9:04:01 AM  
FTFACivilizations die in familiar patterns. They exhaust natural resources. They spawn parasitic elites who plunder and loot the institutions and systems that make a complex society possible... Artistic expression and intellectual inquiry are replaced by a new dark age, the triumph of tawdry spectacle and the celebration of crowd-pleasing imbecility.

Think about this "triumph of tawdry spectacle and the celebration of crowd-pleasing imbecility" the next time you turn on the news and watch a crowd of Trumpanzees hooting and stamping their feet and climbing over each other to be the next one to take a sh*t in America's collective soup.
 
2022-08-16 9:05:29 AM  
nothing i can do about it. just gonna eat this huge juicy cheeseburger, and get drunk. best i can do. nice knowing you
 
2022-08-16 9:08:39 AM  

raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.

Thats a hot take, and not real accurate.  Native Tribes weren't kind to one another, either.   They fought wars against each other, especially in the SouthWest, where there is tons of skeletal evidence for it.

Exporting our genocide doesn't make us more civilized. Plus our gun death rate, mass incarceration, and uncivilized economics...

Yeah, no.  You can't compare 1500s North America with today.
And Native Tribes were pretty brutal, they traded weapons, etc.  Shiat, some were slaveholders, too.


Did the natives wipe out 90%+ of their own population and then start a trans-Atlantic slave industry to compensate for the lost workforce?
 
2022-08-16 9:10:28 AM  

adamgreeney: AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.

Thats a hot take, and not real accurate.  Native Tribes weren't kind to one another, either.   They fought wars against each other, especially in the SouthWest, where there is tons of skeletal evidence for it.

Exporting our genocide doesn't make us more civilized. Plus our gun death rate, mass incarceration, and uncivilized economics...

Yeah, no.  You can't compare 1500s North America with today.
And Native Tribes were pretty brutal, they traded weapons, etc.  Shiat, some were slaveholders, too.

Sounds like they did a lot of stuff we do today. Did they also deliberately destroy their environment so that a very small few of them would benefit?

I am kind of with you here. Ancient brutality among tribes or cultures ANYWHERE in the world could be, and often was brutal. But some of that was simply ignorance, or religion, etc. Now we are doing horrific things to each other with our eyes wide open, and knowing full well how evil we are behaving towards other people. And we keep doing it. 

That is FAR more repulsive and vile than disparate tribes fighting over limited resources.


People couldn't have any way of knowing that murder was evil back then?  Really?  Ever read anything older than a decade?
 
2022-08-16 9:11:30 AM  

wireguy: Thankfully, not America. It will be the first to die of monumental, overpowering stupidity.


People are quite literally dying to get here.  Had a look at any of the other countries that aren't Switzerland?
 
2022-08-16 9:13:08 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: America was more civilized before Columbus than it is today.


And humans are the only animals who kill their own species, right?
 
2022-08-16 9:13:30 AM  

Rapmaster2000: I've been the the Etowah Mounds in Georgia.  They excavated one of the mounds in the 1960s and found these marble effigies inside.
[Fark user image 850x637]
The fish weir is also still in the river.  It's amazing to think that this is over 600 years old and it's still there.
[Fark user image 850x566]

When the Spanish arrived they asked the Cherokee and Muscogee what these mounds were for and they had an oral history that was simply "there were people who built those and they are gone now."  The mound builders kept no written records.  Etowah is a Muscogee work meaning "town".  So they knew there was a town there at one time, but that was pretty much it.


Wow, that's a helluva construction.  How did it survive 600 years of hurricanes and flash floods?

Not doubting, just asking.
 
2022-08-16 9:14:03 AM  
OUTRAGE!!!

oh... sorry wrong article.

....

SENSATIONALISM!!!!
 
2022-08-16 9:15:21 AM  

Diocletian's Last Cabbage: Rapmaster2000: I've been the the Etowah Mounds in Georgia.  They excavated one of the mounds in the 1960s and found these marble effigies inside.
[Fark user image 850x637]
The fish weir is also still in the river.  It's amazing to think that this is over 600 years old and it's still there.
[Fark user image 850x566]

When the Spanish arrived they asked the Cherokee and Muscogee what these mounds were for and they had an oral history that was simply "there were people who built those and they are gone now."  The mound builders kept no written records.  Etowah is a Muscogee work meaning "town".  So they knew there was a town there at one time, but that was pretty much it.

Wow, that's a helluva construction.  How did it survive 600 years of hurricanes and flash floods?

Not doubting, just asking.


I think it may have been reconstructed actually.  Or at least enhanced.
 
2022-08-16 9:16:51 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-08-16 9:18:34 AM  

Unsung_Hero: AdmirableSnackbar: raerae1980: Did they also deliberately destroy their environment so that a very small few of them would benefit?

Yes.  But due to their primitive technological level, damage was very regionally contained and generally temporary, and wealth disparity wasn't really significant.


So the answer is no.
 
2022-08-16 9:20:51 AM  
      My life fades. The vision dims. All that remains are memories. I remember a time of chaos, ruined dreams, this wasted land. But most of all, I remember the road warrior, the man we called Max.

To understand who he was we have to go back to the other time, when the world was powered by the black fuel and the desert sprouted great cities of pipe and steel - gone now, swept away. For reasons long forgotten two mighty warrior tribes went to war and touched off a blaze which engulfed them all. Without fuel they were nothing. They'd built a house of straw. The thundering machines sputtered and stopped. Their leaders talked and talked and talked, but nothing could stem the avalanche. Their world crumbled. Cities exploded - a whirlwind of looting, a firestorm of fear. Men began to feed on men.


On the roads it was a white-line nightmare. Only those mobile enough to scavenge, brutal enough to pillage would survive. The gangs took over the highways, ready to wage war for a tank of juice, and in this maelstrom of decay ordinary men were battered and smashed - men like Max, the warrior Max. In the roar of an engine, he lost everything and became a shell of a man, a burnt-out desolate man, a man haunted by the demons of his past, a man who wandered out into the wasteland. And it was here, in this blighted place, that he learned to live again.
 
2022-08-16 9:22:56 AM  

NewportBarGuy: koder: Asking that question is, itself, the answer to why America will likely fail: arrogance.

America will not fail. We'll just go to the next evolution. Asia will rise as the new Economic power, but we're not going anywhere.


Bruh. Las Vegas is a dead city walking.

I just drove from ABQ to Lawrence. The Rio Grande had run dry two weeks before. The corn crop in Western Oklahoma is a write off; miles and miles of withered plants that are maybe a foot tall.

Beef prices spiked higher earlier this year because high heat and high humidity killed thousands of cattle in feed lots over in Western Kansas. Being the common clay of the new west, the ranchers of Kansas agreed this was Joe Biden's fault and had nothing to do with global warming.

And of course, Las Vegas is a dead city walking.

It's not just that climate change is going to fark up agriculture something fierce, it's that a majority of Americans still don't believe it's a serious problem and the dominant political faction absolutely won't even look at it.

First step in an addict's recovery is admitting he's gonna die if he doesn't change and we are a long long way from that step.
 
2022-08-16 9:25:53 AM  

JerseyTim: This would be a fun green because everyone would just be reacting to the headline and not the article.


Most people won't read far enough to get to this:

This time the collapse will be global. It will not be possible, as in ancient societies, to migrate to new ecosystems rich in natural resources. The steady rise in heat will devastate crop yields and make much of the planet uninhabitable. Climate scientists warn that once temperatures rise by 4℃, the earth, at best, will be able to sustain a billion people.
The more insurmountable the crisis becomes, the more we, like our prehistoric ancestors, will retreat into self-defeating responses, violence, magical thinking and denial.


We're already there.  We already have the self-defeating response, which in this pandemic world of ours involved getting back to our normal lives as quickly as possible, when our normal lives are the cause of our woes.  We have the war in Ukraine for violence.  We have the magical thinking in the form of believing some kind of legislation or change in corporate culture will save us.  And of course there's denial, denial that we're all collectively to blame for what's barreling towards us.  We and every generation that bought into the post WWII myth that you can have anything you want as long as you have cash in hand.
 
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