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(MPR News)   Back in the 1960s the US studied pollutants by dumping them in wilderness areas to see what would happen. Thankfully we've moved beyond such half-baked methods... oh wait   (mprnews.org) divider line
    More: Facepalm, Greenhouse gas, Sulfur hexafluoride, National Park Service, Carbon dioxide, persistent greenhouse gas, use of this gas, Climate change, Global warming potential  
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2892 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Aug 2022 at 12:15 PM (16 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-08-15 11:53:40 AM  
Scientists: We're polluting the environment to save the environment, so give us a break guys
Environmentalists: You're releasing too much
Scientists: Well, we're using just a tiny amount of it
Environmentalists: The release will be equivalent to burning millions of pounds of coal
Scientists: *smoke bomb*
 
2022-08-15 12:07:58 PM  

Walker: Scientists: We're polluting the environment to save the environment, so give us a break guys
Environmentalists: You're releasing too much
Scientists: Well, we're using just a tiny amount of it
Environmentalists: The release will be equivalent to burning millions of pounds of coal
Scientists: *smoke bomb*


A million pounds of coal over a 30-year project lifespan.

eia.govView Full Size


Go ahead, plot it.

And as for:
"In short, the environmental consequence of a small SF6 application in the park is significant," noted White, who recommended that NEON immediately substitute an alternative gas, such as argon,

I'll leave it as an exercise for the student to figure out why something which comprises about 1% of the atmosphere might not be an ideal choice for a tracer gas.
 
2022-08-15 12:16:49 PM  
Why scientists have pumped a potent greenhouse gas into streams

El Río Seltzer.
 
2022-08-15 12:21:32 PM  
Seems these scientist idiots need a reality check.
 
2022-08-15 12:23:47 PM  
no1curr
 
2022-08-15 12:26:26 PM  
Guys.  We don't need to actively create the environment you want to study.  Just be patient.  The entire god damned world is about to become your laboratory.
 
2022-08-15 12:28:40 PM  
And after the study, they will say it's getting hotter because of "man made" climate change.
Well, yeah, you dumped that much, caused the temperature to rise, but they won't mention
that.  It wil be because of all the SUV's, cars and what not, but, not all of the private jets, yachts
and what not of the elitist class.  ;)

So far, this ecology study has released around 108 pounds of the gas, which has about the same impact as burning more than a million pounds of coal.
 
2022-08-15 12:29:07 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-08-15 12:29:39 PM  
Wait.  Hold up.  SF6 is six times heavier than air.  It's the stuff you huff when you want the opposite effect of helium (make your voice stupidly deep) and you have to stand on your head to make sure you get all of it out of your lungs.  Fill a balloon with it and it drops to the ground like a stone.  How does it stay airborne?  I get that it's a potent greenhouse gas, but in order for it to contribute to the greenhouse effect, it has to be in the atmosphere.
 
2022-08-15 12:30:17 PM  
1960s ref: "We think radioactive fallout might contaminate the food chain, so lets put some radioactive waste in the food chain and see who gets cancer"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chariot

/No white folks were endangered, so it passed the ethics rules of the time
//If it worked they were going to nuke Alaska to make a harbor
///And if that worked they were going to nuke Central America to make a bigger and more glow-y Panama canal
 
2022-08-15 12:34:24 PM  

Psychopusher: How does it stay airborne?


Wind mixes the atmosphere up.
 
2022-08-15 12:38:37 PM  
Lockheed was developing a nuclear powered aircraft in the 1950s and they had a research facility that irradiated a forest to see what would happen. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_Forest

It turns out irradiating a forest kills it.  It's recovered now though.
 
2022-08-15 12:39:48 PM  
Somewhat related my friend wanted to become a farmer. There are  many abandoned farms in SW Virginia. My friend took me with him to look at these 40 ac. $225,000 with a manf. type home on it. It was just one more retired farmer and he has a nice place in VA that is now legal to grow in with licence.

Each and every farm had a junk pile and whatever else. Why? well in poor counties near say Red Oak VA. they do not provide any dumpsters for miles and miles. So over time these things were 20 feet tall in the back areas.
 
2022-08-15 12:39:49 PM  

Psychopusher: Wait.  Hold up.  SF6 is six times heavier than air.  It's the stuff you huff when you want the opposite effect of helium (make your voice stupidly deep) and you have to stand on your head to make sure you get all of it out of your lungs.  Fill a balloon with it and it drops to the ground like a stone.  How does it stay airborne?  I get that it's a potent greenhouse gas, but in order for it to contribute to the greenhouse effect, it has to be in the atmosphere.


The lower atmosphere mixes together.

Look at a beam of sunlight shining into a room. You'll notice little specks of dust floating around. Each dust grain is much heavier than a single molecule, yet they don't instantly crash to the floor. A small breeze can send them upward.
 
2022-08-15 12:40:04 PM  
You mean the same people who said, "Let's pump these black folks, prisoners, and soldiers full of toxic shiat, illegal drugs, radiation, etc. and see what happens"?
 
2022-08-15 12:41:01 PM  

mrmopar5287: Psychopusher: How does it stay airborne?

Wind mixes the atmosphere up.


Not forever.  It's too heavy to stay churning up there with the other, much lighter elements.  Fluid dynamics pretty much guarantees it.
 
2022-08-15 12:42:33 PM  
If you can think of a better way to test the effects of pollution on the environment, I'm all ears...

*dons lab coat, proceeds to dump used motor oil in storm sewer*
 
2022-08-15 12:42:42 PM  

Ivo Shandor: Psychopusher: Wait.  Hold up.  SF6 is six times heavier than air.  It's the stuff you huff when you want the opposite effect of helium (make your voice stupidly deep) and you have to stand on your head to make sure you get all of it out of your lungs.  Fill a balloon with it and it drops to the ground like a stone.  How does it stay airborne?  I get that it's a potent greenhouse gas, but in order for it to contribute to the greenhouse effect, it has to be in the atmosphere.

The lower atmosphere mixes together.

Look at a beam of sunlight shining into a room. You'll notice little specks of dust floating around. Each dust grain is much heavier than a single molecule, yet they don't instantly crash to the floor. A small breeze can send them upward.


For a while, sure, but like dust, it will eventually settle.  100 metric tons of space dust settles on Earth every day.
 
2022-08-15 12:48:12 PM  
It's like a Tuskegee Experiment for the earth.
 
2022-08-15 12:48:18 PM  

lilbjorn: You mean the same people who said, "Let's pump these black folks, prisoners, and soldiers full of toxic shiat, illegal drugs, radiation, etc. and see what happens"?


They get annoyed?
 
2022-08-15 12:53:38 PM  

R.O.U.S: 1960s ref: "We think radioactive fallout might contaminate the food chain, so lets put some radioactive waste in the food chain and see who gets cancer"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chariot

/No white folks were endangered, so it passed the ethics rules of the time
//If it worked they were going to nuke Alaska to make a harbor
///And if that worked they were going to nuke Central America to make a bigger and more glow-y Panama canal


My FIL studied using Nuclear bombs to make harbors in Hawaii.
/Didn't get to the blow things up stage
//He kind of wanted to
///He was a very interesting guy.
 
2022-08-15 1:02:09 PM  

Psychopusher: Wait.  Hold up.  SF6 is six times heavier than air.  It's the stuff you huff when you want the opposite effect of helium (make your voice stupidly deep) and you have to stand on your head to make sure you get all of it out of your lungs.  Fill a balloon with it and it drops to the ground like a stone.  How does it stay airborne?  I get that it's a potent greenhouse gas, but in order for it to contribute to the greenhouse effect, it has to be in the atmosphere.


They are injecting into waterways.

It will dissolve in the water and be carried into the atmosphere with the water vapor.  And then the wind starts a-blowin'.
 
2022-08-15 1:08:49 PM  
These are the basic steps you should follow to become a research scientist: Obtain a bachelor's degree. Complete a master's degree.
...
Consider a doctorate.
Obtain a bachelor's degree. ...
Complete a master's degree. ...
Gain experience. ...
Pursue certifications. ...
Consider a doctorate
 
2022-08-15 1:09:28 PM  

BeesNuts: They are injecting into waterways.

It will dissolve in the water and be carried into the atmosphere with the water vapor. And then the wind starts a-blowin'.


Okay, that stands to reason as to how it gets up there -- but how does it stay up there long enough to contribute to the greenhouse effect?  It's still a heavy-ass gas, it'll eventually have to come down again.
 
2022-08-15 1:17:14 PM  

p51d007: And after the study, they will say it's getting hotter because of "man made" climate change.
Well, yeah, you dumped that much, caused the temperature to rise, but they won't mention
that.  It wil be because of all the SUV's, cars and what not, but, not all of the private jets, yachts
and what not of the elitist class.  ;)

So far, this ecology study has released around 108 pounds of the gas, which has about the same impact as burning more than a million pounds of coal.


Short answer: No.

Longer answer: Admittedly it's a bad look, but it's also kind of a drop in the bucket. The US consumed about 546 million tons of coal in 2021. That's about 1.1 billion pounds. As recently as 2008, it was almost double that. US coal consumption is less than 7% of worldwide consumption.
 
2022-08-15 1:25:14 PM  

Psychopusher: BeesNuts: They are injecting into waterways.

It will dissolve in the water and be carried into the atmosphere with the water vapor. And then the wind starts a-blowin'.

Okay, that stands to reason as to how it gets up there -- but how does it stay up there long enough to contribute to the greenhouse effect?  It's still a heavy-ass gas, it'll eventually have to come down again.


If you took away the external energy sources which are mixing up the atmosphere and creating weather, the gasses would eventually reach an equilibrium where the heavier ones were more concentrated at the bottom of the column. They would not separate into discrete layers like oil on water.

See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_height

That page discusses the overall atmosphere but you can apply the calculation to the partial pressure of individual components, based on the molecular mass.
 
2022-08-15 1:31:03 PM  

patrick767: p51d007: And after the study, they will say it's getting hotter because of "man made" climate change.
Well, yeah, you dumped that much, caused the temperature to rise, but they won't mention
that.  It wil be because of all the SUV's, cars and what not, but, not all of the private jets, yachts
and what not of the elitist class.  ;)

So far, this ecology study has released around 108 pounds of the gas, which has about the same impact as burning more than a million pounds of coal.

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: Admittedly it's a bad look, but it's also kind of a drop in the bucket. The US consumed about 546 million tons of coal in 2021. That's about 1.1 billion pounds. As recently as 2008, it was almost double that. US coal consumption is less than 7% of worldwide consumption.


The other relevant comparison is to look at how much SF6 is used in each high-voltage electrical transformer. How significant is this scientific study vs. the amount which leaks from the grid each year?
 
2022-08-15 1:46:51 PM  

patrick767: That's about 1.1 billion pounds.


Oh good god, it's 1.1 trillion pounds.
 
2022-08-15 1:57:10 PM  

Walker: Scientists: We're polluting the environment to save the environment, so give us a break guys
Environmentalists: You're releasing too much
Scientists: Well, we're using just a tiny amount of it
Environmentalists: The release will be equivalent to burning millions of pounds of coal
Scientists: *smoke bomb*


"Environmentalists" : this experiment is entirely responsible for GW, I keyed your car and boiled your bunny.

Scientist: the chemical is non-toxic, and was the equivalent to burning 35 gallons of gasoline, less than the amount of fossil fuels you and your friends used to drive over here.

Seriously kidderinos, they have to study these things and produce data to impact policy.  Otherwise some congressmember and their owners will just keep on pollutin'.
 
2022-08-15 2:06:51 PM  

assalon5: Somewhat related my friend wanted to become a farmer. There are  many abandoned farms in SW Virginia. My friend took me with him to look at these 40 ac. $225,000 with a manf. type home on it. It was just one more retired farmer and he has a nice place in VA that is now legal to grow in with licence.

Each and every farm had a junk pile and whatever else. Why? well in poor counties near say Red Oak VA. they do not provide any dumpsters for miles and miles. So over time these things were 20 feet tall in the back areas.


I live in a very old town in New England.  I found the old garbage pile from the 1800s digging with my friends as a kid.  It was a mound of earth with a 40' pine tree growing in the center.
Old nails, broken dishes, etc.
I also did some Scuba diving in NH, and found an old camp "dump" just off of an island.  It had dishes,  broken chairs, and other items all from the early 20th century.
A colleague of mine was planting bushes in his yard and kept finding these strange "rocks".  Turned out they were solid dried lead paint.  Every time they painted the house up to 1980 or so, they would dump the unused paint in a shallow hole in the yard.  He did find a metal box that looked like a washer or dryer, promptly covered it up and let the grass grow over it.
It's why you need elevated bed gardens in New England.  Any soil near a house is full of lead and who knows what else.
 
2022-08-15 2:20:38 PM  

Northern: assalon5: Somewhat related my friend wanted to become a farmer. There are  many abandoned farms in SW Virginia. My friend took me with him to look at these 40 ac. $225,000 with a manf. type home on it. It was just one more retired farmer and he has a nice place in VA that is now legal to grow in with licence.

Each and every farm had a junk pile and whatever else. Why? well in poor counties near say Red Oak VA. they do not provide any dumpsters for miles and miles. So over time these things were 20 feet tall in the back areas.

I live in a very old town in New England.  I found the old garbage pile from the 1800s digging with my friends as a kid.  It was a mound of earth with a 40' pine tree growing in the center.
Old nails, broken dishes, etc.
I also did some Scuba diving in NH, and found an old camp "dump" just off of an island.  It had dishes,  broken chairs, and other items all from the early 20th century.
A colleague of mine was planting bushes in his yard and kept finding these strange "rocks".  Turned out they were solid dried lead paint.  Every time they painted the house up to 1980 or so, they would dump the unused paint in a shallow hole in the yard.  He did find a metal box that looked like a washer or dryer, promptly covered it up and let the grass grow over it.
It's why you need elevated bed gardens in New England.  Any soil near a house is full of lead and who knows what else.


I came to a similar conclusion in my backyard in Houston. As I get close to the alley, I always find lots of broken glass when digging any shallow hole.  Apparently trash pickup was in the alley for decades.  I'm sure people just tossed bottles back there for years, and who knows what they contained.

That nice flat spot that gets 8 hours of sun?  I'll put a barrier down and build a raised bed over that.
 
2022-08-15 3:27:53 PM  
since 'handmaids tale' and 'idiocracy' have been seen as somewhat prophetic i'm hoping 'the arrival' isn't either.
 
2022-08-15 3:34:25 PM  
Short answer: No.

Longer answer: Admittedly it's a bad look, but it's also kind of a drop in the bucket...



It's a question of scale, and people tend to suck at it;  it was actually - well not really addressed - but mentioned in the article:

Environmentalists - One Million Pounds of Coal! (over 20 years).
Scientists - about 35 gallons of gas (per test)
 
2022-08-15 3:42:30 PM  
You know what else is like a million pounds of coal?  Actually burning a million pounds of coal.
 
2022-08-15 3:47:52 PM  
"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."
 
2022-08-15 4:35:54 PM  
Maybe not a good link if you get scared like me easily.
https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2021/05/fact-check-this-oil-disposal-tip-was-in-popular-science-magazine-in-1963-but-it-was-not-a-good-idea-then-and-it's-not-a-good-idea-now.html

Oh and some fun facts currently we have Tom Midgelys artifacts still spreading lead daily and will continue to do this for long after we are gone. All older ICE prop engines were built and certified for aircraft that are now 70' years old as Jimmy Buffet has a beauty of a Grumman. But we have maybe 100k plus still around I guess its online but lazy.

I think I read that article in STEM.  Also our friends house after 4 years of farming is holding up fine zero problems.
We did get the cops called on the 4th one year as well kids are gonna kid. Nah no one comes to the middle of nowhere...well until they are called.
 
2022-08-15 4:44:36 PM  
Of July would help cops come to see the fireworks kinda not.
 
2022-08-15 4:46:30 PM  

dryknife: "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."


Better in another thread this day me thinks!
 
2022-08-15 5:33:33 PM  
SF6 is completely inert in this application. One fracking well puts out more greenhouse gasses (methane) then. this entire study. Nothing to see here folks. Worked with lots of gasses in the semiconductor industry.
SF6 was as safe as nitrogen or argon.
 
2022-08-15 5:43:11 PM  
Where's that Far Side cartoon that was here last week?

The one with the bear returning home with an ear tag, a transponder and a big "No. 8" painted on his side?

"Scientists " can EABOD.
 
2022-08-15 10:51:17 PM  
China releases 5000 tons a year, and that's just what we know about.
 
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