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(Onion AV Club)   Trigger warning: More "Rust" news   (avclub.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Federal Bureau of Investigation, M1911 pistol, Trigger, Safety, .45 Colt, Robert Adams, Projectile, Firearm  
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1846 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 13 Aug 2022 at 11:35 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



45 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-08-13 10:51:13 PM  
+1
 
2022-08-13 10:53:27 PM  
Ok, that's a clever headline, well played subby.
 
2022-08-13 11:29:43 PM  
We still requiring Baldwin to be ten times the expert of your average NRA member?
 
2022-08-13 11:44:05 PM  
Just more evidence baldwin has dark desires that his status as an elite allows him to cover up.
 
2022-08-13 11:48:17 PM  
To hell with this. I haven't heard anything about Ezra Miller or Anne Heche in the past 4 hours. The past 4 hours!!!
 
2022-08-13 11:52:19 PM  

WhippingBoi: To hell with this. I haven't heard anything about Ezra Miller or Anne Heche in the past 4 hours. The past 4 hours!!!


Good news!  You can see Heches butt hole any time you want!

I assume that rumor is true.  I havent checked for myself.
 
2022-08-14 12:04:16 AM  

AmbassadorBooze: WhippingBoi: To hell with this. I haven't heard anything about Ezra Miller or Anne Heche in the past 4 hours. The past 4 hours!!!

Good news!  You can see Heches butt hole any time you want!

I assume that rumor is true.  I havent checked for myself.


Is it remarkable?
 
2022-08-14 12:06:13 AM  
I'm so over this Rust business.  Fine everyone a lot of money.  Let the Hollywood economic carousel turn.  The poor lady is still dead.  Killed doing what she loved!  In the service of mass entertainment!
 
2022-08-14 12:06:18 AM  
Nice, subby.  +1 on GFP


FTFA: Which seems to mean that the report lays out one of two possibilities: That the gun was defective in some way that someone familiar with firearms likely would have noticed, or that the trigger was pulled at some point during the gun's operation.

Or, that someone f*cked up the part you mentioned earlier on about possibly making it non-operational.

None of which, of course, explains why a live bullet was in the gun in the first place, or on the film's set at all, which remains a key element of the investigations into the case, which are still ongoing with New Mexico police.

Aaaaaaand, this.  Seriously, why was live ammo on the set at all?
 
2022-08-14 12:08:04 AM  
Thought the issue is that there was ammunition in there that should not have been in there.

Triggers get pulled on guns on movie sets all the time. What came out of the gun and who put it there is the problem.
 
2022-08-14 12:09:49 AM  

cryinoutloud: I'm so over this Rust business.  Fine everyone a lot of money.  Let the Hollywood economic carousel turn.  The poor lady is still dead.  Killed doing what she loved!  In the service of mass entertainment!


Blood must be answered with blood.
 
2022-08-14 12:42:02 AM  

stoli n coke: Thought the issue is that there was ammunition in there that should not have been in there.

Triggers get pulled on guns on movie sets all the time. What came out of the gun and who put it there is the problem.


Baldwin is claiming he never pulled the trigger. He's lying.
 
2022-08-14 12:47:35 AM  
It's true what they say:
Rust never sleeps.
It's a credible replacement for C
 
2022-08-14 12:53:51 AM  
Oh thank God, I thought this was going to be more evangelism for the programming language.
 
2022-08-14 12:58:52 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-08-14 1:37:24 AM  

Boojum2k: stoli n coke: Thought the issue is that there was ammunition in there that should not have been in there.

Triggers get pulled on guns on movie sets all the time. What came out of the gun and who put it there is the problem.

Baldwin is claiming he never pulled the trigger. He's lying.


Yup. Bullshiat from the get-go. Here is a transcript of the interview: https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/alec-baldwin-abc-interview-on-rust-film-shooting-transcript

Alec Baldwin : (02:20)
Right. In her direction. I'm holding the gun where she told me to hold it, which ended up being aimed right below her armpit is what I was told. I don't know. This was a completely incidental shot, an angle that may not have ended up in the film at all, but we kept doing this. So then I said to her, "Now in this scene, I'm going to the gun." And I said, "Do you want to see that?" And she said, "Yes." So I take the gun and I start to cock the gun. I'm not going to pull the trigger.

Alec Baldwin : (02:45)
I said, "Do you see that?" She goes, "Well, just cheat it down and tilt it down a little bit like that." And I cock the gun, I go, "Can you see that? Can you see that? Can you see that? And then I let go of the hammer of the gun and the gun goes off. I let go of the hammer of the gun, the gun goes off.

George Stephanopoulos: (02:59)
At the moment?

Alec Baldwin : (03:00)
That was the moment the gun went off. Yeah. That was the moment the gun went off.
....

George Stephanopoulos: (03:28)
And Hall's attorney told ABC News that he was watching and agrees that Alec did not pull the trigger and that his finger was outside the trigger guard. So you have this Colt 45, you just pulled ...

Alec Baldwin : (03:40)
The hammer as far back as I could without cocking the actual [inaudible 00:03:43].

George Stephanopoulos: (03:42)
And you're holding onto the hammer?

Alec Baldwin : (03:44)
I'm holding it. I'm just showing her. I go, "How about that? Does that work? Do you see that? Do you see that?" She goes, "Yeah, that's good." I let go of the hammer. Bang, the gun goes off. Everyone is horrified. They're shocked. It's loud. They don't have their earplugs in. The gun was supposed to be empty. I was told I was handed an empty gun. If there were cosmetic rounds, nothing with a charge at all, a flash round, nothing. She goes down. I thought to myself, "Did she faint?" The notion that there was a live round in that gun did not dawn on me until probably 45 minutes to an hour later.


The problem is that what Baldwin described cannot happen unless the gun in question is defective, with broken hammer notches. From what the FBI report indicates, the gun was in normal working order. Here's what the mechanism of a single action revolver of the type used looks like:

Fark user imageView Full Size


For those unfamiliar, the hammer pivots on a pin through the large hole in it, and the trigger pivots on a pin through the small hole in it. The mainspring is a leaf spring, which applies pressure against the hammer to force it to rotate counter-clockwise in this view. That's what propels the firing pin against the cartridge's primer and makes it go bang. The trigger spring is also a leaf spring, bearing against the tab on the front of the trigger to force it to rotate clockwise - the part where you put your finger always has pressure pushing it forward and the tab at the top pushing back.

The hammer is shown in the fully cocked position, with the full cock notch of the hammer resting against the top of the trigger. This is a relatively precarious perch and only a few pounds of pressure against the trigger will push it back and allow the hammer to rotate and strike the cartridge, as it is supposed to. BUT, if the hammer is NOT pressed, the gun can sit this way for a hundred years and will NOT go off.

Be that as it may, Baldwin claims that he never had the hammer pulled all the way back, and that his finger was not on the trigger. If this were the case then the top tab of the hammer would be firm up against the curved portion of the hammer between the full cock notch, and the half cock notch. If he released the hammer in this position, then the trigger spring would keep the top tab of the hammer against the hammer surface and it would be caught by the half cock notch. In the unlikely event that the half cock notch was broken (and there is nothing to indicate that it was) then the trigger would still be caught by the safety notch. For both of these to fail is unlikely in the extreme (and there is nothing to indicate that they had).

Conclusion - Baldwin is a liar, or at best deluding himself. My guess is that he knows damn well he had his finger on the trigger but knows little enough about how the gun works that he thought he could claim otherwise and be believed.

The main question though is, how was Baldwin handed a gun loaded with live ammo? He's just an idiot actor who can't be expected to know how things work, and obviously doesn't. But that's why the movie industry has safety protocols in place to prevent just such a situation. Of course if Baldwin in his capacity as producer was cutting corners and bypassing industry safety standards, then he may ultimately be the responsible party anyway.
 
2022-08-14 1:47:10 AM  

SonOfSpam: Boojum2k: stoli n coke: Thought the issue is that there was ammunition in there that should not have been in there.

Triggers get pulled on guns on movie sets all the time. What came out of the gun and who put it there is the problem.

Baldwin is claiming he never pulled the trigger. He's lying.

Yup. Bullshiat from the get-go. Here is a transcript of the interview: https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/alec-baldwin-abc-interview-on-rust-film-shooting-transcript

Alec Baldwin : (02:20)
Right. In her direction. I'm holding the gun where she told me to hold it, which ended up being aimed right below her armpit is what I was told. I don't know. This was a completely incidental shot, an angle that may not have ended up in the film at all, but we kept doing this. So then I said to her, "Now in this scene, I'm going to the gun." And I said, "Do you want to see that?" And she said, "Yes." So I take the gun and I start to cock the gun. I'm not going to pull the trigger.

Alec Baldwin : (02:45)
I said, "Do you see that?" She goes, "Well, just cheat it down and tilt it down a little bit like that." And I cock the gun, I go, "Can you see that? Can you see that? Can you see that? And then I let go of the hammer of the gun and the gun goes off. I let go of the hammer of the gun, the gun goes off.

George Stephanopoulos: (02:59)
At the moment?

Alec Baldwin : (03:00)
That was the moment the gun went off. Yeah. That was the moment the gun went off.
....

George Stephanopoulos: (03:28)
And Hall's attorney told ABC News that he was watching and agrees that Alec did not pull the trigger and that his finger was outside the trigger guard. So you have this Colt 45, you just pulled ...

Alec Baldwin : (03:40)
The hammer as far back as I could without cocking the actual [inaudible 00:03:43].

George Stephanopoulos: (03:42)
And you're holding onto the hammer?

Alec Baldwin : (03:44)
I'm holding it. I'm just showing her. I go, "How about that? Does that work? Do you see that? Do you see that?" She goes, "Yeah, that's good." I let go of the hammer. Bang, the gun goes off. Everyone is horrified. They're shocked. It's loud. They don't have their earplugs in. The gun was supposed to be empty. I was told I was handed an empty gun. If there were cosmetic rounds, nothing with a charge at all, a flash round, nothing. She goes down. I thought to myself, "Did she faint?" The notion that there was a live round in that gun did not dawn on me until probably 45 minutes to an hour later.

The problem is that what Baldwin described cannot happen unless the gun in question is defective, with broken hammer notches. From what the FBI report indicates, the gun was in normal working order. Here's what the mechanism of a single action revolver of the type used looks like:

[Fark user image image 850x720]

For those unfamiliar, the hammer pivots on a pin through the large hole in it, and the trigger pivots on a pin through the small hole in it. The mainspring is a leaf spring, which applies pressure against the hammer to force it to rotate counter-clockwise in this view. That's what propels the firing pin against the cartridge's primer and makes it go bang. The trigger spring is also a leaf spring, bearing against the tab on the front of the trigger to force it to rotate clockwise - the part where you put your finger always has pressure pushing it forward and the tab at the top pushing back.

The hammer is shown in the fully cocked position, with the full cock notch of the hammer resting against the top of the trigger. This is a relatively precarious perch and only a few pounds of pressure against the trigger will push it back and allow the hammer to rotate and strike the cartridge, as it is supposed to. BUT, if the hammer is NOT pressed, the gun can sit this way for a hundred years and will NOT go off.

Be that as it may, Baldwin claims that he never had the hammer pulled all the way back, and that his finger was not on the trigger. If this were the case then the top tab of the hammer would be firm up against the curved portion of the hammer between the full cock notch, and the half cock notch. If he released the hammer in this position, then the trigger spring would keep the top tab of the hammer against the hammer surface and it would be caught by the half cock notch. In the unlikely event that the half cock notch was broken (and there is nothing to indicate that it was) then the trigger would still be caught by the safety notch. For both of these to fail is unlikely in the extreme (and there is nothing to indicate that they had).

Conclusion - Baldwin is a liar, or at best deluding himself. My guess is that he knows damn well he had his finger on the trigger but knows little enough about how the gun works that he thought he could claim otherwise and be believed.

The main question though is, how was Baldwin handed a gun loaded with live ammo? He's just an idiot actor who can't be expected to know how things work, and obviously doesn't. But that's why the movie industry has safety protocols in place to prevent just such a situation. Of course if Baldwin in his capacity as producer was cutting corners and bypassing industry safety standards, then he may ultimately be the responsible party anyway.


Dont forget, Baldwin publicly desired to know what it would be like to kill a person.

"I wonder how it must feel to wrongfully kill someone...,"

His dream cams true.
 
2022-08-14 4:56:19 AM  

AmbassadorBooze: Dont forget, Baldwin publicly desired to know what it would be like to kill a person.

"I wonder how it must feel to wrongfully kill someone...,"

His dream cams true.


That bastard gets all the luck.
 
2022-08-14 5:14:19 AM  
He seems to be quite a crazy guy according to some of his interviews. I also think that he's pulled the trigger, but I can't understand why there was a real bullet there.
 
2022-08-14 8:45:41 AM  

Boojum2k: stoli n coke: Thought the issue is that there was ammunition in there that should not have been in there.

Triggers get pulled on guns on movie sets all the time. What came out of the gun and who put it there is the problem.

Baldwin is claiming he never pulled the trigger. He's lying.


Which is a bit of a weird defense in this case.  There's zero dispute that he was holding the gun and pointing it at the person.  So just relying on something difficult to confirm or deny like his finger pulling the trigger isn't going to go far.  If I were him, I would constantly emphasize the bigger problem that there were live rounds on set.  That's the farking issue.  If it wasn't Baldwin, it likely would have been someone else inadvertently firing a round into a crewmember.

I actually don't blame Baldwin the actor for this one, but Baldwin the producer is farked.

My prediction on all this is that there's too much blame to go around for anyone to get found guilty criminally, but a whole lot of people will be out a lot of money in civil suits over the next couple years.
 
2022-08-14 8:52:38 AM  

stoli n coke: Thought the issue is that there was ammunition in there that should not have been in there.

Triggers get pulled on guns on movie sets all the time. What came out of the gun and who put it there is the problem.


This. Did they also conclude that the gun had to be pointed at her when she was shot?  Riveting update!
 
2022-08-14 9:10:48 AM  
Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.
 
2022-08-14 9:19:00 AM  
Fark him.
 
2022-08-14 9:20:37 AM  
For all the hate he spews about firearms, the irony is delicious.
 
2022-08-14 9:24:48 AM  

QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.


I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.
 
2022-08-14 9:28:39 AM  

NeoCortex42: QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.

I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.


If I recall correctly, Baldwin always refused any formal safety instruction. For resaons.
 
2022-08-14 9:33:10 AM  

NeoCortex42: QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.

I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.


That would be like you hiring an electrician to do work in your house and the government telling you that you need to learn how to do the electrician's job to make sure it is done correctly.
 
2022-08-14 9:33:32 AM  

scooterstrats: NeoCortex42: QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.

I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.

If I recall correctly, Baldwin always refused any formal safety instruction. For resaons.


If that's the case, then the producers should be held responsible for hiring him and giving him a gun.

*Looks at list of producers*  Oh, well this is awkward.
 
2022-08-14 9:35:05 AM  

QFarker: NeoCortex42: QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.

I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.

That would be like you hiring an electrician to do work in your house and the government telling you that you need to learn how to do the electrician's job to make sure it is done correctly.


If the electrician insists on me assisting with the work, then yeah, I should be.

If the actors are handling the weapons, they should be trained.  I'm not talking about an exhaustive week-long certification course.  Just give them a two-hour afternoon seminar, with a refresher course every couple years.
 
2022-08-14 9:44:42 AM  

NeoCortex42: QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.

I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.


The first rule that was hammered into my head when I took my into to handgun shooting class was "treat every gun as if it was loaded with live rounds.  Then VERIFY if it is loaded (Live rounds, blank rounds, or unloaded) before you continue to handle the weapon."

If Baldwin was handed a gun, even after being told that it was a cold gun, he should have verified its condition.  NEVER ASSUME something is the way someone else says it is when it comes to a firearm.  As I was told in grade school, "NEVER ASSUME: IT MAKES AN ASS out of U and ME".  Also from a movie I watched later in life: "Assumption is the mother of all Farkups."

I have been handed firearms that were obliviously empty (slide locked back) and I still drop the magazine and verify that there is nothing in the chamber.  Its a habit, and a good one that Baldwin should consider taking up.  Also the "Keep the booger hook off the trigger until you are positive of your target and are cool with killing or destroying anything beyond your target." rule, which he seems to ignore.
 
2022-08-14 9:47:48 AM  

Warmachine999: NeoCortex42: QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.

I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.

The first rule that was hammered into my head when I took my into to handgun shooting class was "treat every gun as if it was loaded with live rounds.  Then VERIFY if it is loaded (Live rounds, blank rounds, or unloaded) before you continue to handle the weapon."

If Baldwin was handed a gun, even after being told that it was a cold gun, he should have verified its condition.  NEVER ASSUME something is the way someone else says it is when it comes to a firearm.  As I was told in grade school, "NEVER ASSUME: IT MAKES AN ASS out of U and ME".  Also from a movie I watched later in life: "Assumption is the mother of all Farkups."

I have been handed firearms that were obliviously empty (slide locked back) and I still drop the magazine and verify that there is nothing in the chamber.  Its a habit, and a good one that Baldwin should consider taking up.  Also the "Keep the booger hook off the trigger until you are positive of your target and are cool with killing or destroying anything beyond your target." rule, which he seems to ignore.


Yes, and that's how actors should behave. Hopefully Rust does for on-set gun safety what The Twilight Zone did for on-set stunt safety.
 
2022-08-14 9:55:41 AM  
Was that even a question? I thought it was established that Baldwin pulled the trigger, but thought the gun had blanks.
 
2022-08-14 9:57:15 AM  

WhippingBoi: It's true what they say:
Rust never sleeps.
It's a credible replacement for C


Well hey hey my my.
 
2022-08-14 10:01:24 AM  

kudayta: AmbassadorBooze: Dont forget, Baldwin publicly desired to know what it would be like to kill a person.

"I wonder how it must feel to wrongfully kill someone...,"

His dream cams true.

That bastard gets all the luck.


Man, I just wonder what it feels like to be in a 3-way with, say, Scarlett Johansson and Anya Taylor Joy.
 
2022-08-14 10:35:33 AM  

SonOfSpam: Boojum2k: stoli n coke: Thought the issue is that there was ammunition in there that should not have been in there.

Triggers get pulled on guns on movie sets all the time. What came out of the gun and who put it there is the problem.

Baldwin is claiming he never pulled the trigger. He's lying.

Yup. Bullshiat from the get-go. Here is a transcript of the interview: https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/alec-baldwin-abc-interview-on-rust-film-shooting-transcript

Alec Baldwin : (02:20)
Right. In her direction. I'm holding the gun where she told me to hold it, which ended up being aimed right below her armpit is what I was told. I don't know. This was a completely incidental shot, an angle that may not have ended up in the film at all, but we kept doing this. So then I said to her, "Now in this scene, I'm going to the gun." And I said, "Do you want to see that?" And she said, "Yes." So I take the gun and I start to cock the gun. I'm not going to pull the trigger.

Alec Baldwin : (02:45)
I said, "Do you see that?" She goes, "Well, just cheat it down and tilt it down a little bit like that." And I cock the gun, I go, "Can you see that? Can you see that? Can you see that? And then I let go of the hammer of the gun and the gun goes off. I let go of the hammer of the gun, the gun goes off.

George Stephanopoulos: (02:59)
At the moment?

Alec Baldwin : (03:00)
That was the moment the gun went off. Yeah. That was the moment the gun went off.
....

George Stephanopoulos: (03:28)
And Hall's attorney told ABC News that he was watching and agrees that Alec did not pull the trigger and that his finger was outside the trigger guard. So you have this Colt 45, you just pulled ...

Alec Baldwin : (03:40)
The hammer as far back as I could without cocking the actual [inaudible 00:03:43].

George Stephanopoulos: (03:42)
And you're holding onto the hammer?

Alec Baldwin : (03:44)
I'm holding it. I'm just showing her. I go, "How about that? Does that work? Do you see that? Do you see that ...


Excellent post.

I will simply add that with the single-action guns of the period, the ONLY way to decock the gun was to restrain the hammer with your thumb, pull and hold the trigger back, and then lower the hammer gently (still using your thumb) to the rest position.

Actually, this is still true today for all or nearly all revolvers, modern or antique.  A double-action revolver lets you fire the gun without having to thumb-cock the hammer each time, but if you thumb-cock any revolver you have to decock it the way I just described.

It's not a particularly complex or challenging thing to do but if something slips the gun goes off.  So if we have an old gun, and maybe the hammer wasn't checkered, or didn't have much checkering on it, or maybe Baldwin's thumb or the hammer was greasy, then you can get a slip and then a negligent discharge.
 
2022-08-14 10:54:27 AM  
So, Baldwin did accidentally pull the trigger. That isn't that surprising. However, it wouldn't have been a problem if several other basic safety rules had been followed.

1) always treat the gun as if it is loaded even if you are fairly certain it has blanks or dummies

2) don't point the gun towards something you don't want to shoot.

3) if you do have to point the gun at the camera and/or towards the crew, have safety glass between you and them

One of the biggest problems is that live rounds were somehow on set, possibly with sabotaged dummy rounds. However, those live rounds would not have caused this tragedy if the other basic safety rules were followed. Because the Rust production was so lax with safety, they were in a position where a crew member was shot and killed and another wounded.
 
2022-08-14 11:31:14 AM  

QFarker: NeoCortex42: QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.

I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.

That would be like you hiring an electrician to do work in your house and the government telling you that you need to learn how to do the electrician's job to make sure it is done correctly.


Nah, I see it more like I'm given a tool by my employer to do my job. I still need to check my gear before using it.

My employer paid for my Work at Heights training.

I'm not a ladder manufacturer or a ladder expert. But when I needed to use one provided by my employer to carry out my duties, I inspected it before use per the mandatory training.
 
2022-08-14 11:34:52 AM  

EatsCrayons: QFarker: NeoCortex42: QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.

I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.

That would be like you hiring an electrician to do work in your house and the government telling you that you need to learn how to do the electrician's job to make sure it is done correctly.

Nah, I see it more like I'm given a tool by my employer to do my job. I still need to check my gear before using it.

My employer paid for my Work at Heights training.

I'm not a ladder manufacturer or a ladder expert. But when I needed to use one provided by my employer to carry out my duties, I inspected it before use per the mandatory training.


That's not how a movie set works, at all.
 
2022-08-14 12:14:25 PM  

QFarker: EatsCrayons: QFarker: NeoCortex42: QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.

I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.

That would be like you hiring an electrician to do work in your house and the government telling you that you need to learn how to do the electrician's job to make sure it is done correctly.

Nah, I see it more like I'm given a tool by my employer to do my job. I still need to check my gear before using it.

My employer paid for my Work at Heights training.

I'm not a ladder manufacturer or a ladder expert. But when I needed to use one provided by my employer to carry out my duties, I inspected it before use per the mandatory training.

That's not how a movie set works, at all.


Well, maybe it should.
 
2022-08-14 1:23:16 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Nice, subby.  +1 on GFP


FTFA: Which seems to mean that the report lays out one of two possibilities: That the gun was defective in some way that someone familiar with firearms likely would have noticed, or that the trigger was pulled at some point during the gun's operation.

Or, that someone f*cked up the part you mentioned earlier on about possibly making it non-operational.

None of which, of course, explains why a live bullet was in the gun in the first place, or on the film's set at all, which remains a key element of the investigations into the case, which are still ongoing with New Mexico police.

Aaaaaaand, this.  Seriously, why was live ammo on the set at all?


The working theory is that the weapons master of the set was allowing people to go target shooting with the guns, since they were in a dessert.  And that gun ended up in the designated place unarmed guns.  Apparently the production hired a relatively new person.

Weapons master is who is responsible for all weapons to be checked, to make sure that they are operational, cleared of obstructions and no live ammunition is being used on set.

There is supposed to be a strict procedure on weapon handling but it was screwed up big time. The weapons master should have thoroughly  checked the gun before handing it to the associate director. AD should have watched them do it. AD should have declared on set that the gun was not armed. The actor is not expected to have weapons knowledge. They are actors, they know nothing.

Some sets use blanks for blanks that are designed for front shot scenes. Other blank are used for close interactions with actors. Live rounds are rarely ever used, only on reality tightly controlled situations.
 
2022-08-14 1:37:19 PM  
greentea1985:

1) always treat the gun as if it is loaded even if you are fairly certain it has blanks or dummies

There is a procedure in place for this: It begins and ends with the Weapons Master. They let a gun with live round in it.

2) don't point the gun towards something you don't want to shoot.

This is a movie: they will be required to do so. This isn't actual gun use, it is make believe.

3) if you do have to point the gun at the camera and/or towards the crew, have safety glass between you and them

Not only expensive, but completely impractical. Shooting through glass would require more set up (dealing with lighting and keeping the glass clear of smudges is nigh impossible) but getting certain shots would be impossible.
 
2022-08-14 9:36:47 PM  

EatsCrayons: QFarker: NeoCortex42: QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.

I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.

That would be like you hiring an electrician to do work in your house and the government telling you that you need to learn how to do the electrician's job to make sure it is done correctly.

Nah, I see it more like I'm given a tool by my employer to do my job. I still need to check my gear before using it.

My employer paid for my Work at Heights training.

I'm not a ladder manufacturer or a ladder expert. But when I needed to use one provided by my employer to carry out my duties, I inspected it before use per the mandatory training.


Actors are not allowed to check anything.

After Brandon Lee, some very strict rules went into place.
Once the firearms expert checks the weapon and it is called cold, the actor is to take it and not fark with it. Otherwise, the checking process has to be done all over again.

Just like when the person in charge of cars for a film says it's good to go, the actor isn't allowed to jump out, pop the hood, and check the oil.
 
2022-08-15 7:47:57 AM  

scooterstrats: For all the hate he spews about firearms, the irony is delicious.


so glad you are enjoying someone's violent and pointless death
 
2022-08-15 8:00:08 AM  

NeoCortex42: QFarker: EatsCrayons: QFarker: NeoCortex42: QFarker: Someone announced that there was a cold gun on set and then handed that gun to an actor with a live round in it.  Nothing else matters.

I don't know the exact rules in place for weapons on set, but maybe they need to make it a rule that any actor handling a working gun needs to be able to identify that it's a cold gun themselves and inspect it upon receiving it.  The set weapon master would still be in charge of it all, but it's one extra level of protection.  Considering the preponderance of guns in movie, SAG should offer a regular workshop with basic gun safety information if they don't already.

That would be like you hiring an electrician to do work in your house and the government telling you that you need to learn how to do the electrician's job to make sure it is done correctly.

Nah, I see it more like I'm given a tool by my employer to do my job. I still need to check my gear before using it.

My employer paid for my Work at Heights training.

I'm not a ladder manufacturer or a ladder expert. But when I needed to use one provided by my employer to carry out my duties, I inspected it before use per the mandatory training.

That's not how a movie set works, at all.

Well, maybe it should.


why? Not to be contrarian but guns on tv/movie sets have an AMAZING safety record. Honestly, more people may have been hurt filming "The Exorcist" than buy guns in Hollywood. The regulations (more of guidelines) are not the problem, the most basic safety measures were not followed. A weapon capable of shooting live ammo was on set, live ammo was on set, the Weapon Master was derelict and/or interfered with by non-trained people, the director and producers did not make sure there was a safe work environment. The Mythbusters was a safer place to work and one of their mottos was "when in doubt, use C4", which is the elevated way of say "hey y'all, watch this". The director should never be allowed to do anything involving stunts again, the producers should all be taken to the bank, and the Weapon Master, well her life is ruined, maybe she can be an accountant now. Who every was shooting the guns for fun should be lumped in with the director and kept from anything dangerous again.

/ this is a tragedy
// the best to come out of this is adding to the examples of "safety matters" even on a budget
 
2022-08-15 8:05:01 AM  

SonOfSpam: The problem is that what Baldwin described cannot happen unless the gun in question is defective, with broken hammer notches. From what the FBI report indicates, the gun was in normal working order. Here's what the mechanism of a single action revolver of the type used looks like:

[Fark user image image 850x720]

For those unfamiliar, the hammer pivots on a pin through the large hole in it, and the trigger pivots on a pin through the small hole in it. The mainspring is a leaf spring, which applies pressure against the hammer to force it to rotate counter-clockwise in this view. That's what propels the firing pin against the cartridge's primer and makes it go bang. The trigger spring is also a leaf spring, bearing against the tab on the front of the trigger to force it to rotate clockwise - the part where you put your finger always has pressure pushing it forward and the tab at the top pushing back.

The hammer is shown in the fully cocked position, with the full cock notch of the hammer resting against the top of the trigger. This is a relatively precarious perch and only a few pounds of pressure against the trigger will push it back and allow the hammer to rotate and strike the cartridge, as it is supposed to. BUT, if the hammer is NOT pressed, the gun can sit this way for a hundred years and will NOT go off.

Be that as it may, Baldwin claims that he never had the hammer pulled all the way back, and that his finger was not on the trigger. If this were the case then the top tab of the hammer would be firm up against the curved portion of the hammer between the full cock notch, and the half cock notch. If he released the hammer in this position, then the trigger spring would keep the top tab of the hammer against the hammer surface and it would be caught by the half cock notch. In the unlikely event that the half cock notch was broken (and there is nothing to indicate that it was) then the trigger would still be caught by the safety notch. For both of these to fail is unlikely in the extreme (and there is nothing to indicate that they had).

Conclusion - Baldwin is a liar, or at best deluding himself. My guess is that he knows damn well he had his finger on the trigger but knows little enough about how the gun works that he thought he could claim otherwise and be believed.

The main question though is, how was Baldwin handed a gun loaded with live ammo? He's just an idiot actor who can't be expected to know how things work, and obviously doesn't. But that's why the movie industry has safety protocols in place to prevent just such a situation. Of course if Baldwin in his capacity as producer was cutting corners and bypassing industry safety standards, then he may ultimately be the responsible party anyway.


The article didn't say whether the FBI had made the conclusion based on the actual gun that fired the fatal bullet. I would assume that they had.

If not, would it be possible for the trigger spring to be missing and  allow a cocked hammer to fire without a trigger pull?
 
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