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(Some Guy)   Everyone is in agreement, the Dems, GOP and the Indies: Let's vote it out on abortion   (ipsos.com) divider line
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2444 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Aug 2022 at 9:05 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-08-12 5:11:18 AM  
The fundamental right to control one's body should not be up for a vote.
 
2022-08-12 6:49:08 AM  

educated: The fundamental right to control one's body should not be up for a vote.


What about authoritarian edict?

Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of abortion rights. But I am also in favor of mandatory vaccinations for certain diseases. I think you would agree that having to get a vaxx is a violation of your personal body control. My point is, there are gradations and nuance involved, and a flat-out assertion such as yours misses all that.

As far as abortion: my position is that the micro-instant that there is a detectable hint of consciousness, is the point beyond which abortion IS murder. Science constantly marches on with new data, but currently says this: "Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. https://www.google.com/search?q=the+point+of+first+consciousness+in+a+fetus&client=firefox-b-1-d&ei=nS72YuX0CuDDkPIPh8CFoAY&ved=0ahUKEwilt5eGj8H5AhXgIUQIHQdgAWQQ4dUDCA0&uact=5&oq=the+point+of+first+consciousness+in+a+fetus&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsAM6BAghEApKBAhBGABKBAhGGABQlg1YmCpg6C9oAnABeACAAbYBiAHPD5IBBDAuMTSYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz
 
2022-08-12 7:03:55 AM  

Harlee: I think you would agree that having to get a vaxx is a violation of your personal body control.


You have a right to swing your fist, but that right ends at my nose.

Similarly, your right to get sick ends at my immune system.
 
2022-08-12 7:19:21 AM  

kudayta: Harlee: I think you would agree that having to get a vaxx is a violation of your personal body control.

You have a right to swing your fist, but that right ends at my nose.

Similarly, your right to get sick ends at my immune system.


Precisely. Individual rights do not exist within a vacuum. They exist because a society exists to enforce those rights. This means that individual rights must logically and practically be limited by the measures a society takes to ensure it's continued existence. That limitation of those rights is called responsibility. Rights, therefore, must inevitably come with responsibilities. Without that framework, rights can not exist and control over everyone devolves to the person with the biggest fists, gun, or army of thugs.
 
2022-08-12 7:21:35 AM  

Harlee: educated: The fundamental right to control one's body should not be up for a vote.

What about authoritarian edict?

Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of abortion rights. But I am also in favor of mandatory vaccinations for certain diseases. I think you would agree that having to get a vaxx is a violation of your personal body control. My point is, there are gradations and nuance involved, and a flat-out assertion such as yours misses all that.

As far as abortion: my position is that the micro-instant that there is a detectable hint of consciousness, is the point beyond which abortion IS murder. Science constantly marches on with new data, but currently says this: "Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. https://www.google.com/search?q=the+point+of+first+consciousness+in+a+fetus&client=firefox-b-1-d&ei=nS72YuX0CuDDkPIPh8CFoAY&ved=0ahUKEwilt5eGj8H5AhXgIUQIHQdgAWQQ4dUDCA0&uact=5&oq=the+point+of+first+consciousness+in+a+fetus&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsAM6BAghEApKBAhBGABKBAhGGABQlg1YmCpg6C9oAnABeACAAbYBiAHPD5IBBDAuMTSYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz


91% of all abortions in the U.S. are performed during the first trimester of pregnancy. Late-term abortions are extremely rare, and are performed in cases when the mother's life is in danger or if the fetus isn't viable.
 
2022-08-12 7:35:28 AM  
Kansas is one thing. If we let it go to a state vote, we effectively abandon women in 12+ states to the whims of the Christofascists.

Absolutely not.
 
2022-08-12 8:19:23 AM  

educated: The fundamental right to control one's body should not be up for a vote.


Let's repeat that again.

Folks, do not accept the premise where basic civil rights are up for debate.
 
2022-08-12 8:32:12 AM  

weddingsinger: educated: The fundamental right to control one's body should not be up for a vote.

Let's repeat that again.

Folks, do not accept the premise where basic civil rights are up for debate.


I would clarify that the fundamental control of one's own body should not have to be up for a vote (or debate).
 
2022-08-12 8:42:50 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Kansas is one thing. If we let it go to a state vote, we effectively abandon women in 12+ states to the whims of the Christofascists.

Absolutely not.


That might be assuming too much. Total bans and a year of implementation will not please 12 states women either.
 
2022-08-12 9:07:22 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Kansas is one thing. If we let it go to a state vote, we effectively abandon women in 12+ states to the whims of the Christofascists.

Absolutely not.


You are also forgetting that the state legislatures can just ignore referendums.  They do it all the time.
 
2022-08-12 9:10:42 AM  
It's what I posted yesterday.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-08-12 9:11:03 AM  
Abortions and cannabis for some.
Tiny American flags for others.
 
2022-08-12 9:12:06 AM  

kudayta: Harlee: I think you would agree that having to get a vaxx is a violation of your personal body control.

You have a right to swing your fist, but that right ends at my nose.

Similarly, your right to get sick ends at my immune system.


One doesn't have the right to infect people with a virus or disease.

The hypocrisy of their stance is that, of course, the vast majority of them have had dozens of vaccines in their life. But an orange pustule of Russian splooge needed political cover, so now it's all vaccines are bad.
 
2022-08-12 9:12:27 AM  

educated: The fundamental right to control one's body should not be up for a vote.


We really shouldn't have to be spelling this out in 2022, what the fark is this regressionist push
 
2022-08-12 9:13:35 AM  

sleze: NewportBarGuy: Kansas is one thing. If we let it go to a state vote, we effectively abandon women in 12+ states to the whims of the Christofascists.

Absolutely not.

You are also forgetting that the state legislatures can just ignore referendums.  They do it all the time.


Whose going to enforce what the Supreme Court says? BeerBro? Ginny?

Probably a can of worms democrats don't want to open, but....
 
2022-08-12 9:13:40 AM  
Popular sovereignty autonomy?

What's next? Breeding Kansas?  The Fallopottawatomie Massacre?  Jane Brown's Raid on Herpuss Ferry?
 
2022-08-12 9:13:42 AM  
Now that the republicans know they'll get their asses kicked if they put this on the ballot, they won't.  They'll just ban, and make the bans as difficult to undo as possible.
 
2022-08-12 9:15:14 AM  

HerptheDerp: educated: The fundamental right to control one's body should not be up for a vote.

We really shouldn't have to be spelling this out in 2022, what the fark is this regressionist push


Crunk scared of future. Crunk want to go back to past. Bang rocks together and worship sky wizard.
 
2022-08-12 9:15:19 AM  
We did vote on abortion.  In 2016. It didn't go well.  I think a lot of folks lost focus somehow.
 
2022-08-12 9:15:22 AM  
Isn't this what Liberty means: Your individual rights cannot be taken away by a majority vote?
 
2022-08-12 9:15:43 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: sleze: NewportBarGuy: Kansas is one thing. If we let it go to a state vote, we effectively abandon women in 12+ states to the whims of the Christofascists.

Absolutely not.

You are also forgetting that the state legislatures can just ignore referendums.  They do it all the time.

Whose going to enforce what the Supreme Court says? BeerBro? Ginny?

Probably a can of worms democrats don't want to open, but....


Genocide might not be the best precedent to open that can of worms, but...

"The Court has made their decision, now they can enforce it."
 
2022-08-12 9:15:55 AM  

LurkLongAndProsper: We did vote on abortion.  In 2016. It didn't go well.  I think a lot of folks lost focus somehow.


Oh dear....

Here we go
 
2022-08-12 9:15:58 AM  

Harlee: educated: The fundamental right to control one's body should not be up for a vote.

What about authoritarian edict?

Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of abortion rights. But I am also in favor of mandatory vaccinations for certain diseases. I think you would agree that having to get a vaxx is a violation of your personal body control. My point is, there are gradations and nuance involved, and a flat-out assertion such as yours misses all that.

As far as abortion: my position is that the micro-instant that there is a detectable hint of consciousness, is the point beyond which abortion IS murder. Science constantly marches on with new data, but currently says this: "Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. https://www.google.com/search?q=the+point+of+first+consciousness+in+a+fetus&client=firefox-b-1-d&ei=nS72YuX0CuDDkPIPh8CFoAY&ved=0ahUKEwilt5eGj8H5AhXgIUQIHQdgAWQQ4dUDCA0&uact=5&oq=the+point+of+first+consciousness+in+a+fetus&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgAEEcQsAM6BAghEApKBAhBGABKBAhGGABQlg1YmCpg6C9oAnABeACAAbYBiAHPD5IBBDAuMTSYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz


Dress it up however you like, but it's all an attempt rationalize female slavery.
 
2022-08-12 9:16:24 AM  
Of course they would.  Conservatives are the minority, no matter how hard they try to convince themselves they aren't.  Which, after what happened in Kansas, there's no way other red states are going to let something like this be a ballot initiative.
 
2022-08-12 9:20:22 AM  

Lorelle: 91% of all abortions in the U.S. are performed during the first trimester of pregnancy. Late-term abortions are extremely rare, and are performed in cases when the mother's life is in danger or if the fetus isn't viable.


Water is wet.
 
2022-08-12 9:21:02 AM  

BMFPitt: Lorelle: 91% of all abortions in the U.S. are performed during the first trimester of pregnancy. Late-term abortions are extremely rare, and are performed in cases when the mother's life is in danger or if the fetus isn't viable.

Water is wet.


Film at 11.
 
2022-08-12 9:21:21 AM  
the key problem with statements like "70% of people support this" is how voting blocks work in this country.  saying that 30% of republicans support abortion rights is meaningless - b/c 70% dont.  so those 30% are just ignored, utterly, and the republicans follow the will of the other 70%.  unless abortion becomes such a wedge issue that on that single issue those people leave republicanism and become dem or 3rd party or stop voting then it doesnt MATTER that they have a dissenting opinion b/c they still vote republican, which means ON THE BALLOT they are anti-choice no matter what they say in surveys.
 
2022-08-12 9:21:33 AM  

greensunshine: Abortions and cannabis for some.
Tiny American Russian flags for others.


FTFY
 
2022-08-12 9:22:01 AM  
Great.

Now vote people in who will not only do that, but pass state and federal constitutional amendments permanently ending this idiocy.
 
2022-08-12 9:23:07 AM  

Trail of BABYMETAL DEATH: Isn't this what Liberty means: Your individual rights cannot be taken away by a majority vote?


well, allegedly, that's what "inalienable" MEANT.
 
2022-08-12 9:23:14 AM  
If you insist on comparing abortion rights to vaccinations I'm going to toss your opinion in the trash.
 
2022-08-12 9:23:28 AM  
No, everyone is not in agreement. It's not something we should be voting on at all.

And as for vaccines, body autonomy applies there too. I will never be on the side of sticking needles into people who do not want them. Medical ethics is founded on informed consent.

But while you have the right to refuse needles, you do not have the right to parade your pathogen-filled corpus around with the rest of us and infect others.

Freedom is freedom to take consequences. And the consequences of not being vaccinated is that the rest of us don't want you near us.
 
2022-08-12 9:23:53 AM  
Then vote these morons out who are passing such laws.
 
2022-08-12 9:24:00 AM  
States like Florida and Texas ought to be examples of how jacked up America can become if people keep voting for conservative assholes.
 
2022-08-12 9:24:24 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-08-12 9:24:27 AM  

Harlee: Precisely. Individual rights do not exist within a vacuum. They exist because a society exists to enforce those rights. This means that individual rights must logically and practically be limited by the measures a society takes to ensure it's continued existence. That limitation of those rights is called responsibility. Rights, therefore, must inevitably come with responsibilities. Without that framework, rights can not exist and control over everyone devolves to the person with the biggest fists, gun, or army of thugs.


I don't think you're wrong. Society exists to safeguard your rights; without it, the rights you enjoy only exist so far as you yourself are willing to enforce them. No one has a "right" to live; we has a society have decided that killing people is bad for society, so we have decided to not do it.

The issue becomes when we as a society have decided things, but the structure of society is built such that our decision does not translate to policy. Abortion access is one of those things; the majority of Americans approve of legal access to abortion in some form. And yet, if we allowed states themselves to decide, through their elected officials (ostensibly how our government is supposed to function) we would see the majority of the country enact draconian bans under anything but the most onerous conditions, if at all.

It is difficult, because I agree with the spirit of "don't vote on human rights", but also see the reality that public opinion on those positions is exactly what makes us settle on them as rights. and that those opinions are just informal votes conducted constantly.
 
2022-08-12 9:26:46 AM  

debug: Of course they would.  Conservatives are the minority, no matter how hard they try to convince themselves they aren't.  Which, after what happened in Kansas, there's no way other red states are going to let something like this be a ballot initiative.


OTOH, nobody thinks Kansas is suddenly going blue now.  There was just a large enough chunk of the population that didn't want their legislature to have the power to go full clownshoes.
 
2022-08-12 9:27:52 AM  

Harlee: "Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation.


You are not going to use a damn Google search to enslave ME to this stupid meat body that I had zero decision in choosing to be embodied in so I could live on this planet, mister.
 
2022-08-12 9:29:59 AM  
They should have went back and asked the question about having the vote after they had determined how that vote would go. I bet the numbers would be different.

The state legislatures can just do what they like right now, why bother asking? It is not like the Republicans are normally into letting people vote.
 
2022-08-12 9:31:12 AM  

PirateKing: No, everyone is not in agreement. It's not something we should be voting on at all.

And as for vaccines, body autonomy applies there too. I will never be on the side of sticking needles into people who do not want them. Medical ethics is founded on informed consent.

But while you have the right to refuse needles, you do not have the right to parade your pathogen-filled corpus around with the rest of us and infect others.

Freedom is freedom to take consequences. And the consequences of not being vaccinated is that the rest of us don't want you near us.


Bodily Autonomy with vaccines:

Fark user imageView Full Size


Bodily Autonomy with abortion:

Fark user imageView Full Size


Another:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-08-12 9:33:06 AM  

PirateKing: No, everyone is not in agreement. It's not something we should be voting on at all.

And as for vaccines, body autonomy applies there too. I will never be on the side of sticking needles into people who do not want them. Medical ethics is founded on informed consent.

But while you have the right to refuse needles, you do not have the right to parade your pathogen-filled corpus around with the rest of us and infect others.

Freedom is freedom to take consequences. And the consequences of not being vaccinated is that the rest of us don't want you near us.


Oh and to those that smart this: you are the f*cking imbeciles that brought polio back. Congratulations, morons.
 
2022-08-12 9:33:10 AM  

debug: Of course they would.  Conservatives are the minority, no matter how hard they try to convince themselves they aren't.  Which, after what happened in Kansas, there's no way other red states are going to let something like this be a ballot initiative.


Also the GOP would not have put it on the ballot in Kansas if they had any other choice.
 
2022-08-12 9:33:36 AM  

educated: The fundamental right to control one's body should not be up for a vote.


Cool.

Let's just add that to the list of things that "should not be".
 
2022-08-12 9:34:01 AM  
I'd say we try to get it on the ballot on any state that might be a swing state. Put it on the ballot in red states too. Could swing some house seats..
 
2022-08-12 9:34:29 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Kansas is one thing. If we let it go to a state vote, we effectively abandon women in 12+ states to the whims of the Christofascists.

Absolutely not.


24 States do not allow the voters to make decisions via the ballot box.  Many legislations can override the vote or just ignore it, even if it is on a constitutional amendment.

Ideally an amendment to the US Constitution would be put in place, but that has less then zero chance of happening. See ERA.
 
2022-08-12 9:35:04 AM  

GoldSpider: educated: The fundamental right to control one's body should not be up for a vote.

Cool.

Let's just add that to the list of things that "should not be".


This.
 
2022-08-12 9:36:07 AM  

johnphantom: PirateKing: No, everyone is not in agreement. It's not something we should be voting on at all.

And as for vaccines, body autonomy applies there too. I will never be on the side of sticking needles into people who do not want them. Medical ethics is founded on informed consent.

But while you have the right to refuse needles, you do not have the right to parade your pathogen-filled corpus around with the rest of us and infect others.

Freedom is freedom to take consequences. And the consequences of not being vaccinated is that the rest of us don't want you near us.

Bodily Autonomy with vaccines:

[Fark user image 630x840]

Bodily Autonomy with abortion:

[Fark user image 800x533]

Another:

[Fark user image 612x411]


I wish there was a vaccine for reading comprehension.
 
2022-08-12 9:37:59 AM  

PirateKing: johnphantom: PirateKing: No, everyone is not in agreement. It's not something we should be voting on at all.

And as for vaccines, body autonomy applies there too. I will never be on the side of sticking needles into people who do not want them. Medical ethics is founded on informed consent.

But while you have the right to refuse needles, you do not have the right to parade your pathogen-filled corpus around with the rest of us and infect others.

Freedom is freedom to take consequences. And the consequences of not being vaccinated is that the rest of us don't want you near us.

Bodily Autonomy with vaccines:

[Fark user image 630x840]

Bodily Autonomy with abortion:

[Fark user image 800x533]

Another:

[Fark user image 612x411]

I wish there was a vaccine for reading comprehension.


Science is the future, fool.
 
2022-08-12 9:40:32 AM  

GoldSpider: educated: The fundamental right to control one's body should not be up for a vote.

Cool.

Let's just add that to the list of things that "should not be".


Its a long list.
(._. )
 
2022-08-12 9:41:01 AM  

Harlee: Precisely. Individual rights do not exist within a vacuum. They exist because a society exists to enforce those rights. This means that individual rights must logically and practically be limited by the measures a society takes to ensure it's continued existence. That limitation of those rights is called responsibility. Rights, therefore, must inevitably come with responsibilities. Without that framework, rights can not exist and control over everyone devolves to the person with the biggest fists, gun, or army of thugs.


A society that cannot exist without forcing women to give birth against their will is not a society that should exist.  Ever.  Women have no responsibility to sacrifice their health for the fetus inside them against their will, and a society that tries to force one on them is overstepping their bounds.
 
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