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(Rolling Stone)   Unsurprisingly, the researcher criticizing the effectiveness of antidepressants is full of it; the study is compared to a critique of the theory of imbalanced humours   (rollingstone.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, Psychiatry, lead author Joanna Moncrieff, dangers of various mental health interventions, clear evidence, nature of mental illness, Awais Aftab, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors  
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820 clicks; posted to STEM » on 01 Aug 2022 at 4:05 AM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



37 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-07-31 11:21:27 PM  
There is empirical evidence of SSRIs working for some people to reduce depression, the actual how and why for some positive and badly for others isn't understood.  None of the psychotropic drugs have an produced an understanding of what actually happens in the brain and SSRIs are no different.
 
2022-08-01 4:07:21 AM  
Subby sounds like a pharmabro whos shiatting their pants that a big moneymaker is suddenly being possibly threatened
 
2022-08-01 4:32:14 AM  
SSRIs are spooky as fark.  Lots of these looney tunes shooters were on "happy pills."

The side effects are suicidal thoughts...

Weren't there some Prozac murders in the 1990s?
 
2022-08-01 4:40:36 AM  

CoonAce: SSRIs are spooky as fark.  Lots of these looney tunes shooters were on "happy pills."

The side effects are suicidal thoughts...

Weren't there some Prozac murders in the 1990s?


No, there were conspiracy theories linked to Scientology in the '90s blaming Prozac for murders in an attempt to discredit psychiatry.
 
2022-08-01 4:48:12 AM  

Gordon Bennett: CoonAce: SSRIs are spooky as fark.  Lots of these looney tunes shooters were on "happy pills."

The side effects are suicidal thoughts...

Weren't there some Prozac murders in the 1990s?

No, there were conspiracy theories linked to Scientology in the '90s blaming Prozac for murders in an attempt to discredit psychiatry.


And per TFA, Scientology is linked to this new criticism, too...
 
2022-08-01 4:53:14 AM  
I dunno. I live with mental illness and depression is a horrible farking thing. Big Pharma has made me able to at least partially live a normal life. Psychiatrists in America, from my experience, are given very little time per patient. It really is all about the money. Move 'em through as fast as possible so the clinic can charge as much as possible per billable day. Too bad. A lot of people could benefit from psychiatric attention, real therapy by the hour. Healthcare providers seem to make it as difficult as possible just to get an appointment. God forbid you telephone for help (they insist on you using their website to get help via DIY) you get bounced from one person to another. It's frustrating as all hell. But the meds, they work. You may have to change doctors, you may have to change meds, but if you hang in there eventually they get it right.
 
2022-08-01 5:52:55 AM  
Shrooms.
 
2022-08-01 6:16:51 AM  
SSRI's have not worked well for treating my depression and I have tried many generations of them over the decades.  For me, CBT is key.

That said the right medications can at the very least help stabilize me enough to do the cognitive work if I am in a really bad place and have saved my life.  For some folks with mental health issues medication is absolutely necessary to live a manageable life.  For others SSRIs do work well and there are so much fewer side affects to these newer generations of them.

Most importantly do not go on a drinking binge for a few days or you will withdraw from most SSRI's. do not just quit taking them either, taper slowly under the advice of a doctor.  Prozac withdrawal for instance is very bad and must be tapered very very slowly.
 
2022-08-01 6:55:06 AM  

eurotrader: There is empirical evidence of SSRIs working for some people to reduce depression, the actual how and why for some positive and badly for others isn't understood.  None of the psychotropic drugs have an produced an understanding of what actually happens in the brain and SSRIs are no different.


We didn't understand the mechanism underlying the analgesic effects of aspirin until fairly recently, but no one assumed it was a conspiracy of Big Pharma.
 
2022-08-01 7:36:52 AM  
I love my Prozac. I don't care how or why it works. It keeps me somewhat sane.
NSCSB:
A while ago my prescription expired and I had switched doctors. The receptionist at the new doctor yelled at me to calm down (I was crying). I said, "I'm out of the medicine that keeps me calm! And you are refusing to help me!" I wasn't coherent enough to explain you just can't stop taking it cold turkey like that. Nightmare. Pharmacy and doctors playing hot potato with my brain as the bottle of pills emptied.
 
2022-08-01 7:38:09 AM  
Humours?

I don't find any of this funny.
 
2022-08-01 8:03:39 AM  

dryknife: Shrooms.


micro-dosing? I'd be interested in trying that and I am not "drug-tested" for work, just not sure where to find a reputable source, plus don't want an arrest record

I quit taking anti-depressants because I didn't feel they were helping and I've tried several over the years. I used to take St John's Wort for over 10 years and then didn't feel they were being effective. I upped my dosage of Vitamin D and feel like I did when I first started taking STJW. Most people know their bodies well enough to know what works and isn't working and so few people actually speak up and are honest with their doctors (I'll never understand why would make an interesting research paper)

Now I just need to find something to help with my SQUIRREL
 
2022-08-01 8:08:59 AM  
If you're a psychiatrist who wants to question the accepted science, then more power to you. That's what science is about.

But if you're being bankrolled by Scientology, then fark right off.
 
2022-08-01 8:20:57 AM  

Spawn_of_Cthulhu: cold turkey


Nothing more dangerous than SSRI cold turkey. Polar personality shift.
 
2022-08-01 8:34:19 AM  
I just took my daily dose of Prozac and Wellbutrin so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

/or something
 
2022-08-01 8:51:42 AM  
Off topic: I find the push - pull "cyberwarfare" of propaganda to be fascinating. "They"- whomever it is that is really really frightened by healing people's minds- have been on a massive push lately.  Fascinating!

On topic- The Drs couldn't figure out I had colon cancer for 2 years. (F*ckin pandemic!) I wasn't doing well. As a matter of fact I was in the darkest place you can be. I call it 'maximum level negative thinking.' I think it obvious what I was considering to end the pain.

They started giving me a series of SSRIs. The drugs made it worse!! I think it was because I didn't have an imbalance in my brain- I had rationally come to this place to end the f*cking pain I was enduring. Super weird experience.

The cure- true cure, my mind healed (!), was with a real healing psychiatrist and ketamine assisted therapy. It for real deal cured my mind. I am no longer depressed, we can talk about the weird table that surgeons use when they dissect you, without crying, mind you, and I have an understanding of many ways to deal with the anxiety. (To cure the anxiety, society will either have to end or return to sanity. I truly wish I could stop paying attention.)

But, to take a pill that is supposed to help you, and have it be a timeline like "you have to take this for 3 weeks,." but it gives you *every single negative side effect* ...WOW! That is possibly the second worst thing I have endured in my life. F*****CK! First place of course was the right side hemi-colectomy plus. That sucked.

I think SSRIs are a very dangerous double edged sword. I am glad they worked for you! There may be a better way, where you can be cured of the depression. Of course, tripping balls really isn't for everyone.

I have been told that most people just go unconscious w/a dose of ketamine, but some people have ... hmmm...*incredible* psychedelic experiences. It helps one gain perspective on your situation.

If KAT has been legalized in your area, and you have mental health problems, I encourage you to look at it. KAT has the possibility to actually cure you. Plus, that come down... ooof!  Good times.
 
2022-08-01 9:02:07 AM  
Yeah let's all go off our meds! What could go wrong?

/please don't go off your meds
 
2022-08-01 9:25:07 AM  
This brings my choleric to the fore!
 
2022-08-01 9:39:59 AM  

oldfool: Yeah let's all go off our meds! What could go wrong?

/please don't go off your meds


you rang?
independent.ieView Full Size
 
2022-08-01 9:42:37 AM  

xanadian: Humours?

I don't find any of this funny.


You've lost bile because you posted cringe.

/with apologies to Liam Anderson of Well There's Your Problem
 
2022-08-01 10:00:42 AM  

OhioUGrad: dryknife: Shrooms.

micro-dosing? I'd be interested in trying that and I am not "drug-tested" for work, just not sure where to find a reputable source, plus don't want an arrest record

I quit taking anti-depressants because I didn't feel they were helping and I've tried several over the years. I used to take St John's Wort for over 10 years and then didn't feel they were being effective. I upped my dosage of Vitamin D and feel like I did when I first started taking STJW. Most people know their bodies well enough to know what works and isn't working and so few people actually speak up and are honest with their doctors (I'll never understand why would make an interesting research paper)

Now I just need to find something to help with my SQUIRREL


More interested in a long form 1/8th oz or less guided trip/therapy session. I believe they do this but at lower doses. At an 1/8th you're gonna want to bust out of the room and go walk around. Which is fine, people can walk and talk.
 
2022-08-01 10:02:27 AM  

Concrete Donkey: Subby sounds like a pharmabro whos shiatting their pants that a big moneymaker is suddenly being possibly threatened


With so-called "conservatism" having evolved into a personality disorder, it's not surprising that those trapped in it would evolve rationales to resist treatment.
 
2022-08-01 10:33:12 AM  

Concrete Donkey: Subby sounds like a pharmabro whos shiatting their pants that a big moneymaker is suddenly being possibly threatened


This is a nutjob shrink with an agenda, just like Wakefield and mercury in vaccines causing autism (because he was pushing his own brand of vaccine that didn't include mercury at the time).

Joanna Moncrieff is pushing the same nonsense that Scientologists do when it comes to psychiatry and meds.
 
2022-08-01 10:47:22 AM  
My head has always been a dark, swirling, disastrous place. A little over two weeks ago it added a really nice headache and I almost lost all ability to concentrate on anything for more than 5 mins.

Looked in the mirror yesterday and said "Dude, I have no effing clue."

However, with some of the horror stories I've read, as someone that lives alone (the cat would be zero use here (so, typical day)), the thought of going on meds and trying different ones and different doses scares the absolute crap out of me.
Odds are I'll just deal with it best I can until it either sorts itself out or nature just takes its course.
 
2022-08-01 11:16:05 AM  

wildbill0712: My head has always been a dark, swirling, disastrous place. A little over two weeks ago it added a really nice headache and I almost lost all ability to concentrate on anything for more than 5 mins.

Looked in the mirror yesterday and said "Dude, I have no effing clue."

However, with some of the horror stories I've read, as someone that lives alone (the cat would be zero use here (so, typical day)), the thought of going on meds and trying different ones and different doses scares the absolute crap out of me.
Odds are I'll just deal with it best I can until it either sorts itself out or nature just takes its course.


Take a walk in a forest
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5369157/
https://news.stanford.edu/2015/06/30/hiking-mental-health-063015/
 
2022-08-01 11:35:54 AM  
talkyournonsense:

Take a walk in a forest
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5369157/
https://news.stanford.edu/2015/06/30/hiking-mental-health-063015/


110% honestly appreciate the suggestions. Just shy of two months ago I completed my first half Ironman, so being out and about hasn't been an issue for a over a year. But, I could always add more trail running to the mix.
My father hasn't left his property in over 35 years and is the type that writes names on the people he hates on his walls.
His mother spent most of her adult life in and out of self check in mental facilities.

Overall, I've always thought I've kept it on the rails fairly well for these almost 48 years. Thankfully, none of the women that have been goodly enough to sleep with me over the years have told me about any crotch fruit along the way. Odds are all of this "fun" will end with me.
So, I've got that goin' for me, which is nice. lol
 
2022-08-01 11:57:38 AM  

talkyournonsense: Take a walk in a forest
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5369157/
https://news.stanford.edu/2015/06/30/hiking-mental-health-063015/


It's not surprising to me that as we become more and more an indoor species, with the vast majority of our time spent in cars, offices, stores, and our own homes, our mental health problems have gradually increased.

When we lived in Philly, my mental health took a nosedive.  Working in the city with a long commute, and then listening to horns, sirens, and car alarms all day, left me constantly frazzled.  Every Sunday when the weather permitted, I drove about 80 miles round trip just to get out of the city and go for a good long hike.  Without that, I don't think I would have held onto my sanity.

Moved to semi-rural Virginia and recently to very rural Virginia, and to say my outlook has improved would be a huge understatement.
 
2022-08-01 12:31:00 PM  

wildbill0712: talkyournonsense:

Take a walk in a forest
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5369157/
https://news.stanford.edu/2015/06/30/hiking-mental-health-063015/

110% honestly appreciate the suggestions. Just shy of two months ago I completed my first half Ironman, so being out and about hasn't been an issue for a over a year. But, I could always add more trail running to the mix.
My father hasn't left his property in over 35 years and is the type that writes names on the people he hates on his walls.
His mother spent most of her adult life in and out of self check in mental facilities.

Overall, I've always thought I've kept it on the rails fairly well for these almost 48 years. Thankfully, none of the women that have been goodly enough to sleep with me over the years have told me about any crotch fruit along the way. Odds are all of this "fun" will end with me.
So, I've got that goin' for me, which is nice. lol


I think part of it is wandering without purpose. Slowly, watch the light between the leaves, don't run through, be present with the forest. Other studies looked at green space like a park vs a forest/ treed area. The trees worked better than the green space.  There's some science theories and some hippie theories on why but we're not super sure.

Good luck on your journey.
 
2022-08-01 12:37:13 PM  

wildbill0712: My head has always been a dark, swirling, disastrous place. A little over two weeks ago it added a really nice headache and I almost lost all ability to concentrate on anything for more than 5 mins.

Looked in the mirror yesterday and said "Dude, I have no effing clue."

However, with some of the horror stories I've read, as someone that lives alone (the cat would be zero use here (so, typical day)), the thought of going on meds and trying different ones and different doses scares the absolute crap out of me.
Odds are I'll just deal with it best I can until it either sorts itself out or nature just takes its course.


Hi. I'm going to do the unthinkable on Fark and offer up some warm, personal support, one human being to another, free from derision, sarcasm, and snark. Truly. If I get a lifetime ban for trying to help another person with depression, I'm O.K. with that.

No one can predict what will or won't work to help you with depression - there are only varying degrees of probability. Much like life. The horror stories are rare. Not "non-existent", but rare.

I was very reluctant to commit to ingesting brain altering substances with potentially bad side effects, having unknown long-term consequences for the one organ that makes me me. My brain.

What finally convinced me to try meds was that talk therapy and other things weren't doing enough to help me out of my hole. I finally decided that I would rather try action than endure the status quo. That if meds caused me trouble, I'd at least done SOMETHING to help myself beyond what I'd been doing.

That mental process itself - choosing action over inaction - has (and continues to be) a central aspect in managing my depression. It's damn hard. Sometimes the only thing that urges me to act is the sad certainty that past events have always taught me: action is almost always the better choice and makes me feel better. (Isn't it awesome re-re-learning life's lessons?)

If you try something, it's not this or that. There are many meds out there, all with different capabilities and efficacy for different people. I tried about 5 different ones before settling on one or two. They helped. "Helped": they didn't cure me. Talk therapy and self work continued to be vital. Changing my life circumstances helped a LOT.

I guess for me, it came down to being so fed up that I was willing to try something - anything - to help myself. I even seriously considered electroshock therapy, and that sh$t REALLY scared me.

In the end, pills were less than I'd hoped and feared. They helped some, but I still had to work at myself. There were unpleasant side effects, but they weren't overwhelming after I tried a bunch of different meds and doses. I think my experience is much more typical that way. Not newsworthy, not dramatic. Just enough better to help me on the path to a better place.

Definitely worth it for me. And I'm a hard-headed empiricist disgusted by the hype of the pharma industry's assault on medicine.

I hope you get some help. In the end, it's your head and your life: what are you doing to improve your wretched state?  If what you're doing isn't helping, is it time to try something different?

Good luck. You're not alone. Not even on Fark.
 
2022-08-01 12:44:26 PM  

OhioUGrad: dryknife: Shrooms.

micro-dosing? I'd be interested in trying that and I am not "drug-tested" for work, just not sure where to find a reputable source, plus don't want an arrest record

I quit taking anti-depressants because I didn't feel they were helping and I've tried several over the years. I used to take St John's Wort for over 10 years and then didn't feel they were being effective. I upped my dosage of Vitamin D and feel like I did when I first started taking STJW. Most people know their bodies well enough to know what works and isn't working and so few people actually speak up and are honest with their doctors (I'll never understand why would make an interesting research paper)

Now I just need to find something to help with my SQUIRREL


You can grow your own for personal use in a closet. Or so I have heard.  It's also a great little hobby.  Spores are legal in most states and can be shipped discreetly.  Or so I've heard.  It does take patience and some basic science and research to get a set up going but it's not complicated. And can make your life with depression and anxiety much better. Or so I've heard.
 
2022-08-01 1:03:58 PM  

bughunter: Gordon Bennett: CoonAce: SSRIs are spooky as fark.  Lots of these looney tunes shooters were on "happy pills."

The side effects are suicidal thoughts...

Weren't there some Prozac murders in the 1990s?

No, there were conspiracy theories linked to Scientology in the '90s blaming Prozac for murders in an attempt to discredit psychiatry.

And per TFA, Scientology is linked to this new criticism, too...


It's amazing when the same shadowy creeps keep muddying the waters, isn't it?
 
2022-08-01 1:07:58 PM  

indy_kid: Concrete Donkey: Subby sounds like a pharmabro whos shiatting their pants that a big moneymaker is suddenly being possibly threatened

This is a nutjob shrink with an agenda, just like Wakefield and mercury in vaccines causing autism (because he was pushing his own brand of vaccine that didn't include mercury at the time).

Joanna Moncrieff is pushing the same nonsense that Scientologists do when it comes to psychiatry and meds.


I know it's fashionable in history classes to dismiss single person causes of things, but I feel like quackery is a realm where a couple motivated jackoffs can shift perceptions for decades
 
2022-08-01 1:40:17 PM  
I've been on Prozac 4 or 5 times when things got bad.  I'm on it now for an extended period.  I don't care how it works.  it saved me from suicide probably a couple of times.

Fano: I know it's fashionable in history classes to dismiss single person causes of things, but I feel like quackery is a realm where a couple motivated jackoffs can shift perceptions for decades


You can do that in psychology/psychiatry.  It's too farking subjective and people don't understand it.  Not to mention that the drugs work differently in everyone, so you can't just prescribe something and fix the person.
When I worked in the field, you could watch the diagnoses change with each fad mental disorder.  boys all used to be ADHD.  Then bipolar was a great diagnosis--are you flaky and erratic?  Probably bipolar!  Take a pill.
Then women were all borderlines.  Everyone has depression and anxiety.  Narcissistic personality disorder is running amok.
some of that is real, and some is it is just mental health spasms.  Since mental health is related to our environment, and our interpretation of "mentally healthy" is dependent on how well everyone else is, we can all be narcissistic and depressed, but it's just a function of our society. So is it a mental disorder or not?
If everyone is sick, is the society sick, or do we need to change the definitions?  Careful now, because this matters.

We're just going to change the definitions, so that we can keep doing the same thing that we do now, even if it is bad for us.  If you want to be an anxious bisexual with a light heroin habit who sleeps with people in leather, we don't have to stigmatize you.  We can just change the definitions, so that every sort of freak is "normal."
It's a lot better for THE ECONOMY.  Anxious bisexuals with something to prove spend a lot of money.
 
2022-08-01 2:27:15 PM  
So, I'm on my fifth SSRI; this one is... well, it works but I can't tell if it's any better then the last one. Side effects are less bad, but...

I read the Dr's rebuttal linked in the article, and yes, she and her co-authors bring up a good point: not knowing the mechanism for how these meds work have unknown risks and warrant further study.

But in a mechanism that is as complex as a brain where you can't exactly do precise neurochemical A/B testing, such uncertainty doesn't invalidate the end effect that SSRIs. For those of us where they do have some effect, aka "working", it's really the only solution to live some sort life of reasonable quality.

In short, I know that if I don't want to end up in a Dr.'s office breaking down because my double whammy of anxiety and depression has triggered my fight/flight response so hard I can't think straight, I have to take these meds.

So, Scientologist-supported doctor, don't take your hypotheses too far. Claiming your "review of the material" supports a radical notion - that people shouldn't use SSRIs - is about eleventy steps too far.

PS - I've read recently that psychotropics and guided usage are a potential new avenue in treating depression and anxiety, and I look forward to a day in which a better tool than SSRIs become available.
 
2022-08-01 3:51:32 PM  

Fano: bughunter: Gordon Bennett: CoonAce: SSRIs are spooky as fark.  Lots of these looney tunes shooters were on "happy pills."

The side effects are suicidal thoughts...

Weren't there some Prozac murders in the 1990s?

No, there were conspiracy theories linked to Scientology in the '90s blaming Prozac for murders in an attempt to discredit psychiatry.

And per TFA, Scientology is linked to this new criticism, too...

It's amazing when the same shadowy creeps keep muddying the waters, isn't it?


David Miscavige looks like a creepy villain right out of DC Comics:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-08-01 3:54:14 PM  

bughunter: Fano: bughunter: Gordon Bennett: CoonAce: SSRIs are spooky as fark.  Lots of these looney tunes shooters were on "happy pills."

The side effects are suicidal thoughts...

Weren't there some Prozac murders in the 1990s?

No, there were conspiracy theories linked to Scientology in the '90s blaming Prozac for murders in an attempt to discredit psychiatry.

And per TFA, Scientology is linked to this new criticism, too...

It's amazing when the same shadowy creeps keep muddying the waters, isn't it?

David Miscavige looks like a creepy villain right out of DC Comics:

[Fark user image image 596x335]


townsquare.mediaView Full Size
 
2022-08-02 6:49:18 AM  

imashark: So, Scientologist-supported doctor, don't take your hypotheses too far. Claiming your "review of the material" supports a radical notion - that people shouldn't use SSRIs - is about eleventy steps too far.


Just as a FWIW, I googled the doc's name and Scientology and I didn't find any links between the two.  What I did find was a number of shrinks saying that all it takes is challenging the conventional view of psychology/psychiatry, and then the accusations of being affiliated with Scientology start to fly.  Considering how hard the field is being hit by the replication crisis, it's becoming clear the field needs to be examined.
 
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