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(The Hill) Hero Dear Turkey: fark you. Yours in Christ, Rep. Chris Pappas (D-NH)   (thehill.com) divider line
    More: Hero, Turkey, Rep. Chris Pappas, Greece, Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis, NATO ally Greece, military equipment, Sen. Jeanne Shaheen, State Department  
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3457 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Jul 2022 at 8:40 PM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



47 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-07-12 8:42:07 PM  
I read that as Turley and thought "wtf has that moron done now"

Anyway. *drinks beer*
 
2022-07-12 8:44:02 PM  
As God as my witness I thought F16s could fly
 
2022-07-12 8:46:32 PM  
"...unless the president can certify to Congress that Turkey has "not violated the sovereignty of Greece" for at least 120 days prior to the sale or transfer. "

Seems like kind of a low bar, 120 days.  'Hey, try not to suck any dick violate Greek sovereignty on the way to the parking lot.'
 
2022-07-12 8:50:12 PM  
Hey, maybe we should be not working with anyone helping Russia. That seems like a pretty easy line not to cross.
 
2022-07-12 8:50:29 PM  
Had no idea Yannis Pappas had a brother.
 
2022-07-12 8:50:43 PM  
You'd think the EU could take care of that shiat.
 
2022-07-12 8:51:20 PM  
so they're marking their calendars for 121 days from whenever
 
2022-07-12 8:51:34 PM  
I thought Turkiye changed the spelling of their name
 
2022-07-12 8:51:51 PM  
Hey, that's nobody's business.
 
2022-07-12 8:53:42 PM  
Uh subby, by blocking the sale, America has to return Turkeys money and lose out on additional profit from more maintenance and upgrade fees. Because Turkey then has no business dealings over modern F-16s, American political bargaining power is further diminished as that is the major benefit of selling advanced weapon systems to foreign countries. And Turkey needs to replace their fighter jets. Since Russia is out that leaves France, China, and a very distant third of Sweden as the only other options. And Turkey will use the bargaining chip of choosing China just to leverage more money and concessions from the other NATO countries.

Also, Greece is also an economic dumpster fire that also uses American fighter jets. Letting Turkey slug it out with Greece just means America can profit from both sides and have leverage over the two exhausted nations after the stockpiles have been used.
 
2022-07-12 8:55:37 PM  

Heliodorus: Uh subby, by blocking the sale, America has to return Turkeys money and lose out on additional profit from more maintenance and upgrade fees.


Well that's certainly be a concern if the US were cash-strapped, which it absolutely isn't whatsoever.
 
2022-07-12 8:57:07 PM  

Palined Parenthood: so they're marking their calendars for 121 days from whenever


correct me if i'm wrong but isn't that a friday?
 
2022-07-12 9:02:56 PM  

JolobinSmokin: Had no idea Yannis Pappas had a brother.


If Yannis has a family fortune built on chicken fingers...then, yes.
 
2022-07-12 9:03:34 PM  
Erdogan is going to Tehran next week to meet w/ the Iranian president and Putin. You know, because that's the kind of thing nato members do.

fark off, Turkey.
 
2022-07-12 9:04:03 PM  
Seinfeld - whats going on with the papayas
Youtube fwigH6QPQv0
 
2022-07-12 9:07:42 PM  
Might wanna poke 'em another time, 'least until Sweden and Finland are officially part of NATO. A little behind, but couldn't Turkey just change their vote at this time and screw things up?

If so, it's better to wait, and then once Sweden and Finland are officially NATO we can wait until Thanksgiving and send the Greeks even better planes, perhaps with suspiciously-named 'Hungry Pilgrim' AI installed.

Ooh, and Himars painted like basters!  :)
 
2022-07-12 9:17:11 PM  
How about until they want to have a real talk about where all those Armenians went 100 or so years ago?
 
2022-07-12 9:19:05 PM  

gameshowhost: Palined Parenthood: so they're marking their calendars for 121 days from whenever

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't that a friday?


SHUT

DOWN

EVERYTHING
 
2022-07-12 9:23:44 PM  

TheDavil: Might wanna poke 'em another time, 'least until Sweden and Finland are officially part of NATO. A little behind, but couldn't Turkey just change their vote at this time and screw things up?

If so, it's better to wait, and then once Sweden and Finland are officially NATO we can wait until Thanksgiving and send the Greeks even better planes, perhaps with suspiciously-named 'Hungry Pilgrim' AI installed.

Ooh, and Himars painted like basters!  :)


No worries. This little grandstanding maneuver isn't going anywhere in Congress.
 
2022-07-12 9:29:38 PM  
After arming despots and lunatics all over the globe, overthrowing "inconvenient" leaders and Governments everywhere, I am mightily impressed we have decided to draw the line in the sand in exactly the most ridiculous and grandstanding position possible.  Good job high school geo-politics majors everywhere.
 
2022-07-12 9:31:16 PM  

omg bbq: How about until they want to have a real talk about where all those Armenians went 100 or so years ago?


It is rather offensive that we are conducting business with countries who deny committing genocides.
 
2022-07-12 9:35:03 PM  

Plane Guy: JolobinSmokin: Had no idea Yannis Pappas had a brother.

If Yannis has a family fortune built on chicken fingers...then, yes.


I don't know about that but he's friends with John Stamos.

/you should google who Yannis Pappas is and watch some of it.
 
2022-07-12 9:39:49 PM  

gameshowhost: Palined Parenthood: so they're marking their calendars for 121 days from whenever

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't that a friday?


And it's a payday, too!!
 
2022-07-12 9:41:57 PM  
Turkey: Shame something might hold up those Scandinavian NATO memberships again
 
2022-07-12 9:43:49 PM  

Heliodorus: Uh subby, by blocking the sale, America has to return Turkeys money and lose out on additional profit from more maintenance and upgrade fees. Because Turkey then has no business dealings over modern F-16s, American political bargaining power is further diminished as that is the major benefit of selling advanced weapon systems to foreign countries. And Turkey needs to replace their fighter jets. Since Russia is out that leaves France, China, and a very distant third of Sweden as the only other options. And Turkey will use the bargaining chip of choosing China just to leverage more money and concessions from the other NATO countries.


Unless you're a shareholder of General Dynamics, why do you care? Turkey is the least dependable NATO member ever, so it's not like there's any strategic advantage to kissing Erdogan's ass - he will always do what most benefits Erdogan regardless of what we do.
 
2022-07-12 9:45:24 PM  
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't one of the selling points of the F-16 is that it is supposed to be a really easy fighter jet to learn how to fly, provided you are already a pilot?  It's also small enough that I think you could take the wings off and put it in a shipping container.

Seems like the perfect plane if some country had a bunch of pilots who were really good at flying Mig-29s and SU-25s needed a new plane to fly, because they didn't have enough planes to go around, you could probably equip them with F-16s, and we have so many extra F-16s laying around we have been converting them to target drones.
 
2022-07-12 9:54:31 PM  

omg bbq: How about until they want to have a real talk about where all those Armenians went 100 or so years ago?


They moved to Glendale and Burbank and Hollywood Adjacent.
 
2022-07-12 9:57:10 PM  
All my Greek relatives, plus the entire country, in chorus: "WE TOLD YOU SO!"  And I mean they have, for 100 years, warned everyone who would listen that Turkey would make a shiat partner for any western country.  It's just always been about realpolitik, letting them get away with shiat because it was better than it being an openly Soviet satellite state, but the current regime is pretty much a bad actor in every way that matters, so I don't know what we get out of it any more.
 
2022-07-12 10:00:50 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-07-12 10:00:55 PM  

GreatGlavinsGhost: I thought Turkiye changed the spelling of their name


And no one has to listen to them.
 
2022-07-12 10:02:25 PM  
Meanwhile, tucker carlson is running to make an op-ed for the second time that will tell the leader is so manily
 
2022-07-12 10:03:28 PM  

omg bbq: How about until they want to have a real talk about where all those Armenians went 100 or so years ago?


The irony given current events is they were persecuted because they supported the Russian invaders. The Armenian community had already been under suspicion so when some Armenian insurgents started fighting on the Russian side the Ottomans overreacted and ordered every Armenian forcibly relocated far away from the front lines. Cue massacres and death marches.
 
2022-07-12 10:12:30 PM  

Klyukva: omg bbq: How about until they want to have a real talk about where all those Armenians went 100 or so years ago?

The irony given current events is they were persecuted because they supported the Russian invaders. The Armenian community had already been under suspicion so when some Armenian insurgents started fighting on the Russian side the Ottomans overreacted and ordered every Armenian forcibly relocated far away from the front lines. Cue massacres and death marches.


You mean a Christian minority supported the Christian invaders against their Muslim occupiers?
Surely an unprecedented and incomprehensible situation.
 
2022-07-12 10:14:23 PM  

g.fro: Klyukva: omg bbq: How about until they want to have a real talk about where all those Armenians went 100 or so years ago?

The irony given current events is they were persecuted because they supported the Russian invaders. The Armenian community had already been under suspicion so when some Armenian insurgents started fighting on the Russian side the Ottomans overreacted and ordered every Armenian forcibly relocated far away from the front lines. Cue massacres and death marches.

You mean a Christian minority supported the Christian invaders against their Muslim occupiers?
Surely an unprecedented and incomprehensible situation.


I mean there was a reason the Ottomans were expecting it.
 
2022-07-12 10:19:17 PM  
Klyukva:...

I mean there was a reason the Ottomans were expecting it.

Some might even say they were counting on it.
 
2022-07-12 11:00:59 PM  

ricochet4: Heliodorus: Uh subby, by blocking the sale, America has to return Turkeys money and lose out on additional profit from more maintenance and upgrade fees. Because Turkey then has no business dealings over modern F-16s, American political bargaining power is further diminished as that is the major benefit of selling advanced weapon systems to foreign countries. And Turkey needs to replace their fighter jets. Since Russia is out that leaves France, China, and a very distant third of Sweden as the only other options. And Turkey will use the bargaining chip of choosing China just to leverage more money and concessions from the other NATO countries.

Unless you're a shareholder of General Dynamics, why do you care? Turkey is the least dependable NATO member ever, so it's not like there's any strategic advantage to kissing Erdogan's ass - he will always do what most benefits Erdogan regardless of what we do.


I understand how much influence the military industrial complex has on national policy, not only here but in other nations that produce arms. More importantly, I also understand that other countries have independent thoughts and desires than the US. Standing up and petulantly screaming that other countries do something or don't do something without leverage over that country is what most Americans and American politicians think is all that is necessary but that is not how the world actually functions.
 
2022-07-12 11:31:31 PM  

New Rising Sun: "...unless the president can certify to Congress that Turkey has "not violated the sovereignty of Greece" for at least 120 days prior to the sale or transfer. "

Seems like kind of a low bar, 120 days.  'Hey, try not to suck any dick violate Greek sovereignty on the way to the parking lot.'


It gives the executive the power to determine what counts as a violation of their sovereignty too
 
2022-07-12 11:59:38 PM  

Heliodorus: I understand how much influence the military industrial complex has on national policy, not only here but in other nations that produce arms. More importantly, I also understand that other countries have independent thoughts and desires than the US. Standing up and petulantly screaming that other countries do something or don't do something without leverage over that country is what most Americans and American politicians think is all that is necessary but that is not how the world actually functions.


Fark user imageView Full Size


No one is "petulantly screaming" anything (nice strawman); you seem to be implying that I expect Erdogan to do anything other than fark us over every chance he gets. Moreover, what's good for General Dynamics (and the MIC generally) is not necessarily good for the United States, and selling Turkey these planes isn't the useful leverage that you seem to think it is.
 
2022-07-13 2:21:47 AM  
I thought this was going to be more like that hilarious bit of utter stupidity brought to us by Alaska's #1 village idiot.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-07-13 3:17:36 AM  

Heliodorus: ricochet4: Heliodorus: Uh subby, by blocking the sale, America has to return Turkeys money and lose out on additional profit from more maintenance and upgrade fees. Because Turkey then has no business dealings over modern F-16s, American political bargaining power is further diminished as that is the major benefit of selling advanced weapon systems to foreign countries. And Turkey needs to replace their fighter jets. Since Russia is out that leaves France, China, and a very distant third of Sweden as the only other options. And Turkey will use the bargaining chip of choosing China just to leverage more money and concessions from the other NATO countries.

Unless you're a shareholder of General Dynamics, why do you care? Turkey is the least dependable NATO member ever, so it's not like there's any strategic advantage to kissing Erdogan's ass - he will always do what most benefits Erdogan regardless of what we do.

I understand how much influence the military industrial complex has on national policy, not only here but in other nations that produce arms. More importantly, I also understand that other countries have independent thoughts and desires than the US. Standing up and petulantly screaming that other countries do something or don't do something without leverage over that country is what most Americans and American politicians think is all that is necessary but that is not how the world actually functions.


Turkey needs to learn to stay in its lane. They still think they're the Ottoman Empire. They're just a middling regional power now, and a pretty annoying one too. People still remember the Armenian Genocide and they still claim it never happened. Well, it did and we're going to keep talking about it, and Ataturk can kiss my ass.

Do you remember this? This is what Turkey thinks they can do with diplomatic immunity. Too bad some of their goons didn't get shot.

A violent brawl outside the Turkish embassy in Washington, D.C.
Youtube oIiBY_u0vaw
 
2022-07-13 3:48:42 AM  

ricochet4: Heliodorus: I understand how much influence the military industrial complex has on national policy, not only here but in other nations that produce arms. More importantly, I also understand that other countries have independent thoughts and desires than the US. Standing up and petulantly screaming that other countries do something or don't do something without leverage over that country is what most Americans and American politicians think is all that is necessary but that is not how the world actually functions.

[Fark user image 425x318]

No one is "petulantly screaming" anything (nice strawman); you seem to be implying that I expect Erdogan to do anything other than fark us over every chance he gets. Moreover, what's good for General Dynamics (and the MIC generally) is not necessarily good for the United States, and selling Turkey these planes isn't the useful leverage that you seem to think it is.


I don't know why you are trying to put words in my mouth about creating straw men but whatever makes you feel better about yourself I guess.

Foreign leaders like Erdogan, willing to screw over the US if they don't get the best deal all the time is a sign of a foreign leader looking out for their country. Playing powers against each other for the best military purchase or economic deals is how functioning small and middle countries operate. There are no real friendships between nations, only interests. And this goes the same for the US in how it treats other countries. If you can't understand that you need to actually study how countries interact with each other.

You believe that fighter jets aren't a major concern for the United States. But reality and facts disagree with your beliefs. Look at the current desperate blundering the US is getting into over Argentina's likely choice of Chinese aircraft, or if you want a historic example, we can look all the way back at the favoritism that was given to the dictatorship of the Iranian Shah. Or we can look at the long term favoritism and deals struck between the US and Thailand. Or say Morocco for that matter. Military sales such as aircraft, and just as importantly blocking non-US sales to a client, is an important pillar of modern politics.

In terms of what is best for the United States, that is clearly the military industrial complex. Democrat, Republican, no matter the party in charge, that hasn't changed for decades. Since the US is a democracy, the fact that it hasn't changed means voters are fine with it on a fundamental level. If not, politicians that did not favor such things would have been voted in long ago.
 
2022-07-13 6:05:30 AM  

GreatGlavinsGhost: I thought Turkiye changed the spelling of their name


I did as well. I now spell it as Pigeon.
 
2022-07-13 7:20:37 AM  
Ergodan cares more about transforming Turkey into a right wing dictatorship than the West or NATO. Just like TFG, he admires Putin and would have no problem openly committing genocide and questioning why the West has a right to complain about it.
 
2022-07-13 8:15:05 AM  
Too bad Turkey was trying to be accepted as a Western democracy, and the Erdogan came along. The sooner Turks be done with him the better.
 
2022-07-13 8:16:26 AM  
ALso, vote Chris Pappas!
 
2022-07-13 11:50:49 AM  

Heliodorus: I don't know why you are trying to put words in my mouth about creating straw men but whatever makes you feel better about yourself I guess.

[snip]

In terms of what is best for the United States, that is clearly the military industrial complex. Democrat, Republican, no matter the party in charge, that hasn't changed for decades. Since the US is a democracy, the fact that it hasn't changed means voters are fine with it on a fundamental level. If not, politicians that did not favor such things would have been voted in long ago.


"Standing up and petulantly screaming that other countries do something or don't do something without leverage over that country is what most Americans and American politicians think is all that is necessary but that is not how the world actually functions."
This is not happening anywhere except in your imagination; those are your words, that's the strawman I was referring to.

The second point of yours that I've quoted above is beyond ridiculous, to the point that I now think that you're either trolling or brain damaged, or both. Ad hominems aside, there are serious logic problems with your chain of thought presented here, several opinions presented as facts
 
2022-07-13 9:20:15 PM  

winedrinkingman: Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't one of the selling points of the F-16 is that it is supposed to be a really easy fighter jet to learn how to fly, provided you are already a pilot?  It's also small enough that I think you could take the wings off and put it in a shipping container.

Seems like the perfect plane if some country had a bunch of pilots who were really good at flying Mig-29s and SU-25s needed a new plane to fly, because they didn't have enough planes to go around, you could probably equip them with F-16s, and we have so many extra F-16s laying around we have been converting them to target drones.


Up, down, left and right is easy in an F-16. Employing it as a weapons systems is 6-8 months of training in Arizona.
 
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