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(Independent)   What's going on with the 737 max these days? Oh..wow   (independent.co.uk) divider line
    More: Scary, Boeing, Southwest Airlines, Federal Aviation Administration, United Airlines, Aircraft manufacturer Boeing, Air safety, Boeing 737, Flight  
•       •       •

7008 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jul 2022 at 9:05 PM (11 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



125 Comments     (+0 »)
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2022-07-09 3:48:42 PM  
If it's Boeing, I'm not going.
 
2022-07-09 5:05:30 PM  
Screw that. I won't fly on a MAX if they get this exemption. F*ck Boeing.
 
2022-07-09 5:19:24 PM  
To me, the 737 MAX looks like a product designed by accountants instead of by people who love aircraft. They should kill it and start over with a team that is passionate about the art and craft of making great aircraft.
 
2022-07-09 6:08:07 PM  
Well, that's not frightening at all.

Looks like the bean counting that McDonnell Douglas brought in finally caught up with them.
 
2022-07-09 7:13:12 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size

Ah yes, the famous 737 Dreamliner.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-07-09 7:23:04 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-07-09 7:40:28 PM  

hermit: To me, the 737 MAX looks like a product designed by accountants instead of by people who love aircraft. They should kill it and start over with a team that is passionate about the art and craft of making great aircraft.


So, not American make, then.
 
2022-07-09 8:16:26 PM  

ImpendingCynic: Well, that's not frightening at all.

Looks like the bean counting that McDonnell Douglas brought in finally caught up with them.


"MD bought Boeing with Boeing's money."
 
2022-07-09 9:00:08 PM  
Does anyone know what system they want an exemption for? The article said "crew alert system" but I don't know what that means. Does it affect how the plane flies, or is this just a communications system for the crew?
 
2022-07-09 9:08:57 PM  
So planes need a safety system because the historical average of crashes is 2 for every two million commercial flights. But guns......
 
2022-07-09 9:08:59 PM  
Because this is what's going to make people want to fly or fly on those planes.

"You can fly on the death trap or spend/get paid the same and fly on another plane that's less likely to kill you."
 
2022-07-09 9:11:51 PM  

Lsherm: Does anyone know what system they want an exemption for? The article said "crew alert system" but I don't know what that means. Does it affect how the plane flies, or is this just a communications system for the crew?


So there are a few things. Most of which aren't on any aircraft today (Airbus has SOME of it).

It all goes back to the question as to if the MAX should be treated as its own type (which would require considerable training and expense for airlines who have large legacy 737 fleets, the vast majority which would be redundant for someone qualified on a legacy 737), which avoiding, is a big selling point of the plane.

The obvious answer here is there should be a special max qualified cert which bridges the gap and can be accomplished in a fraction of the time and expense, and with better results, focusing on the stuff that matters, than treating it as a new type where the guy who has 1000s of hours under the legacy planes is just tuning out during it.

But, you know, we let politicians decide this and not pilots and engineers.
 
2022-07-09 9:13:15 PM  

Alebak: Because this is what's going to make people want to fly or fly on those planes.

"You can fly on the death trap or spend/get paid the same and fly on another plane that's less likely to kill you."


The typical airline passenger long ago proved they just want to fly on what saves them 3 bucks, but will then biatch about it.

You get what you paid for.
 
2022-07-09 9:17:13 PM  
fark Boeing in the ass with a cactus.  "We won't fly if you won't let us fly without regulation!".....   and????
 
2022-07-09 9:17:20 PM  
 
2022-07-09 9:17:37 PM  
and when i say airbus has SOME of it, its on very recent planes, or options.

And i'm not going to get into an Airbus\Boeing pissing match. Both have their merits and reasons for detraction against all types and classes.

To give an example. I have a deck on my house. We know we are going to do an addition at some point, so don't want to sink a ton of money into it. The deck is grandfathered into code, but could use some improvements, and repairs.

But there is a breaking point with code in many things, where now i need to pull a permit and bring everything up to code, and shiat just cascades.

So you get what i call, the Deck of Theseus. Where we carefully figure out what keeps us JUST under requiring to come up to code, but still be able to do, each year, in parts.

At what point do i have a new deck that skirted code?
 
2022-07-09 9:18:13 PM  

LineNoise: Lsherm: Does anyone know what system they want an exemption for? The article said "crew alert system" but I don't know what that means. Does it affect how the plane flies, or is this just a communications system for the crew?

So there are a few things. Most of which aren't on any aircraft today (Airbus has SOME of it).

It all goes back to the question


REGISTER TO READ MORE OF THIS COMMENT
 
2022-07-09 9:18:27 PM  
Puting profits over safety...oh, who am I kidding? Boeing's done this for years.
 
2022-07-09 9:21:35 PM  
Wait.  Who are they threatening?
 
2022-07-09 9:23:37 PM  
Boeing... Boeing... bomb!

fark Boeing and their safety exemption request. They should be thankful they are an American Corp, else they'd have plenty of Senior Management looking at prison time for their willful disregard for safety
 
2022-07-09 9:24:36 PM  
I flew from Tampa to Sky Harbor on July 2nd.  Sat down in my seat and saw this....
Fark user imageView Full Size

I texted my brother and told him "Maybe this will be a shorter flight than I thought".  He didn't find it so funny.  Flight was fine.  Nice plane.  Didn't crash.
 
2022-07-09 9:24:50 PM  

LineNoise: and when i say airbus has SOME of it, its on very recent planes, or options.

And i'm not going to get into an Airbus\Boeing pissing match. Both have their merits and reasons for detraction against all types and classes.

To give an example. I have a deck on my house. We know we are going to do an addition at some point, so don't want to sink a ton of money into it. The deck is grandfathered into code, but could use some improvements, and repairs.

But there is a breaking point with code in many things, where now i need to pull a permit and bring everything up to code, and shiat just cascades.

So you get what i call, the Deck of Theseus. Where we carefully figure out what keeps us JUST under requiring to come up to code, but still be able to do, each year, in parts.

At what point do i have a new deck that skirted code?


? It got grandfathered.  So the answer to your question at the end is, the moment it had to be grandfathered.
 
2022-07-09 9:27:26 PM  
"Boeing has learned its lesson."

- Susan Collins
 
2022-07-09 9:30:09 PM  

waxbeans: ? It got grandfathered.  So the answer to your question at the end is, the moment it had to be grandfathered.


But those changes to code came about for good reason. We obviously can't tell everyone that built a deck that was compliant 10 years ago to tear it down and start over (or rewire your whole house, change your fire protection or plumbing up, railing heights, distance from your toilet to the closest wall, etc) every other year.

There is a point where you go, "OK, we can do better, but that is safe enough, or forcibly changing shiat on the fly  introduces new risk"

Likewise we can't say, "Hey, you have 2 wonky planks, or a stair, in that deck someone is going to get hurt on. You touch them, you need to tear the whole thing down" That isn't safe either.
 
2022-07-09 9:32:38 PM  

hermit: To me, the 737 MAX looks like a product designed by accountants instead of by people who love aircraft. They should kill it and start over with a team that is passionate about the art and craft of making great aircraft.


Hey, the accountants just tell you how you spent the money. Blame the finance guys who tell you how to spend the money.
 
2022-07-09 9:33:54 PM  
Wait.. what?

Is this not the company that engaged in negligent homicide of hundreds?
 
2022-07-09 9:34:09 PM  
From regulatory capture to regulatory blackmail.
 
2022-07-09 9:34:57 PM  

Lsherm: Does anyone know what system they want an exemption for? The article said "crew alert system" but I don't know what that means. Does it affect how the plane flies, or is this just a communications system for the crew?


It doesn't affect how the plane flies, it only affects how it crashes.
 
2022-07-09 9:34:57 PM  
air bus is safer
0
 
2022-07-09 9:36:55 PM  

LineNoise: To give an example. I have a deck on my house. We know we are going to do an addition at some point, so don't want to sink a ton of money into it. The deck is grandfathered into code, but could use some improvements, and repairs.

But there is a breaking point with code in many things, where now i need to pull a permit and bring everything up to code, and shiat just cascades.

So you get what i call, the Deck of Theseus. Where we carefully figure out what keeps us JUST under requiring to come up to code, but still be able to do, each year, in parts.

At what point do i have a new deck that skirted code?


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-07-09 9:37:53 PM  

Lsherm: Does anyone know what system they want an exemption for? The article said "crew alert system" but I don't know what that means. Does it affect how the plane flies, or is this just a communications system for the crew?


Well, yesterday's Fark thread on this had a better article.  The system is called EICAS (Engine Indicating and Crew Alerting System) and it's part of the "glass cockpit".  It relays critical info on engine operation and systems failure messages.
 
2022-07-09 9:39:08 PM  
"We've Been Trying To Reach You About Your Aircraft's Extended Warranty..."
 
2022-07-09 9:41:41 PM  

LineNoise: Lsherm: Does anyone know what system they want an exemption for? The article said "crew alert system" but I don't know what that means. Does it affect how the plane flies, or is this just a communications system for the crew?

So there are a few things. Most of which aren't on any aircraft today (Airbus has SOME of it).

It all goes back to the question as to if the MAX should be treated as its own type (which would require considerable training and expense for airlines who have large legacy 737 fleets, the vast majority which would be redundant for someone qualified on a legacy 737), which avoiding, is a big selling point of the plane.


And when you try to hide the systems changes made to the airframe in order to end run around type recertification you wind up with pilots who are unaware of things like MCAS, and then planes nose dive into the ground while the crews fight them all the way down.  But hey, FREE MARKETS, right?
 
2022-07-09 9:42:13 PM  
Wow, I would think Boeing would be avoiding anything that even remotely smelled like skirting saftey protocols. Then again a goldfish has a longer memory than most consumers and 737 crashes are more than 3 news cycles old
 
2022-07-09 9:42:33 PM  

Znuh: If it's Boeing, I'm not going.


So Airbus then? Equally sketchy.

Or maybe you'll just do small aircraft and have much higher accident rates?

You'll get in a Boeing. You have little choice.
 
2022-07-09 9:46:14 PM  
Holy Fark, not gonna fly on one of those death tubes.

Cry cry cry, Capitolism, whaaa!

"I think our case is persuasive enough [to be granted an extension]... This is a risk I'm willing to take. If I lose the fight, I lose the fight."
Mr Calhoun added: "If you go through the things we've been through, the debts that we've had to accumulate, our ability to respond, or willingness to see things through even a world without the MAX 10 is not that threatening."

We had to go into debt to fix our shait human killer tube, whaa, why can't we just make money and not have to not kill people?
 
2022-07-09 9:47:06 PM  

Ivo Shandor: [Fark user image image 425x366]
Ah yes, the famous 737 Dreamliner.


[Fark user image image 395x750]


#172life
 
2022-07-09 9:47:06 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-07-09 9:49:34 PM  
Only fly at 737 ft max, lose the windows and instruments, and all will be fine. You also have a built-in marketing campaign.

"737 Max. That's as high as you'll go."
 
2022-07-09 9:49:44 PM  

hermit: To me, the 737 MAX looks like a product designed by accountants instead of by people who love aircraft. They should kill it and start over with a team that is passionate about the art and craft of making great aircraft.


Welcome to capitalism
 
2022-07-09 9:50:22 PM  

SplittingAces: "Boeing has learned its lesson."

- Susan Collins


Someone get the lights, please.
 
2022-07-09 9:51:39 PM  
Needs more snakes.
 
2022-07-09 9:53:49 PM  

hermit: To me, the 737 MAX looks like a product designed by accountants instead of by people who love aircraft. They should kill it and start over with a team that is passionate about the art and craft of making great aircraft.


Ha ha ha.  That costs money. Have you honestly not stopped to consider what this would do to the shareholder? What is more important to you? A bunch of people getting to and from their destinations safely rich, or people having plenty of money to buy a super sized yacht? You need to get your priorities straight
 
2022-07-09 9:58:54 PM  
This reeks of the "too big to fail" mentality of outsized companies when they reach a certain stage and basically consider themselves capitalistic gods immune to the workings and laws of mere mortals.
 
2022-07-09 10:03:13 PM  

LineNoise: and when i say airbus has SOME of it, its on very recent planes, or options.

And i'm not going to get into an Airbus\Boeing pissing match. Both have their merits and reasons for detraction against all types and classes.

To give an example. I have a deck on my house. We know we are going to do an addition at some point, so don't want to sink a ton of money into it. The deck is grandfathered into code, but could use some improvements, and repairs.

But there is a breaking point with code in many things, where now i need to pull a permit and bring everything up to code, and shiat just cascades.

So you get what i call, the Deck of Theseus. Where we carefully figure out what keeps us JUST under requiring to come up to code, but still be able to do, each year, in parts.

At what point do i have a new deck that skirted code?


Kudos to the Ship of Theseus reference.  I learned about this philosophical problem by watching a Leo Goolden video during his re-build of the Tally Ho.
 
2022-07-09 10:05:19 PM  

LineNoise: Lsherm: Does anyone know what system they want an exemption for? The article said "crew alert system" but I don't know what that means. Does it affect how the plane flies, or is this just a communications system for the crew?

So there are a few things. Most of which aren't on any aircraft today (Airbus has SOME of it).

It all goes back to the question as to if the MAX should be treated as its own type (which would require considerable training and expense for airlines who have large legacy 737 fleets, the vast majority which would be redundant for someone qualified on a legacy 737), which avoiding, is a big selling point of the plane.

The obvious answer here is there should be a special max qualified cert which bridges the gap and can be accomplished in a fraction of the time and expense, and with better results, focusing on the stuff that matters, than treating it as a new type where the guy who has 1000s of hours under the legacy planes is just tuning out during it.

But, you know, we let politicians decide this and not pilots and engineers.


Even the modifications made to the MAX 8 "should" have required no pilots be offline for training because it's basically a 737 with a more fuel efficient engine, which made it a huge selling feature.

BUT Boeing also modified it so that there was an automated mechanism (MCAS) that pushed the nose down under certain conditions that would cause a critical problem (ie nosedive into the ground...as we all saw happen...twice) if it wasn't manually overridden and they failed to mention it.

Engineers couldn't say anything because they're under massive NDAs and Boeing got off with a fine that wasn't even a slap on the wrist.
 
2022-07-09 10:06:26 PM  

LineNoise: At what point do i have a new deck that skirted code?


Yeah, the "grandfather's axe" method of skirting code enforcement can be slow but effective for rebuilding old structures like decks, sheds, and detached garages. Buddy of mine had a detached three-car garage that was grandfathered in. It was not only too large but was also built partially on easement. It was rotting out and the town would never issue him a permit for a rebuild. The solution? Take off the roof and tear down three walls, but leave the easement-encroaching wall standing. Tear up the floor, pour new floor, build new walls and roof, then tear down the original wall and rebuild that. Now it's considered a "remodel" and the town will happily issue the permits.
 
2022-07-09 10:10:35 PM  

LineNoise: and when i say airbus has SOME of it, its on very recent planes, or options.

And i'm not going to get into an Airbus\Boeing pissing match. Both have their merits and reasons for detraction against all types and classes.

To give an example. I have a deck on my house. We know we are going to do an addition at some point, so don't want to sink a ton of money into it. The deck is grandfathered into code, but could use some improvements, and repairs.

But there is a breaking point with code in many things, where now i need to pull a permit and bring everything up to code, and shiat just cascades.

So you get what i call, the Deck of Theseus. Where we carefully figure out what keeps us JUST under requiring to come up to code, but still be able to do, each year, in parts.

At what point do i have a new deck that skirted code?


After you sailed it across an ocean?
 
2022-07-09 10:12:43 PM  
Cancel it. Safety first.
 
2022-07-09 10:13:58 PM  

yagottabefarkinkiddinme: Cancel it. Safety first.


User name checks out......
 
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