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(CBC)   When Indians end up with "XXX" as their first names on passports. Vin Diesel and McLovin seen nodding in sympathy   (cbc.ca) divider line
    More: Weird, Family name, full name, Notary public, firstname, Canadian passport, Safa Khan, Personal name, Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative  
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4812 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 28 Jun 2022 at 10:05 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



101 Comments     (+0 »)
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2022-06-28 9:45:08 AM  
I recently got my Canadian passport. There's an application and a whole separate document of instructions. Why not just instruct applicants, "If your name is not in Given Name/Family Name format, put your name in the family name field and what your friends call you in the given name field."

... or something to that effect.

In other news, Canadian passports do this.
 
2022-06-28 10:08:01 AM  
Approves -- and is applying for Canadian citizenship, as we speak...

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-06-28 10:09:29 AM  
President Not Sure will fix this.  He's smart.
 
2022-06-28 10:09:44 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-06-28 10:11:38 AM  
When I was in high school I knew a refugee from Vietnam. They had screwed up her birthday when she got here so she was like 16 and her drivers license said she was 22.
 
2022-06-28 10:11:45 AM  
Governments are slower to make bureaucratic changes to forms and documents than societal changes...news at 11.
 
2022-06-28 10:13:34 AM  
In a followup email late Monday, another IRCC spokesperson, Peter Liang, said passport holders with XXX as their first name can return their valid passport and have it replaced with a blank in their given-name field at no extra charge.

Great, instead of "XXX" as your first name, it could just be no first name at all. What an elegant solution that will have no unintended consequences at all!
 
Juc [recently expired TotalFark]
2022-06-28 10:14:27 AM  
Hell I was born in Canada and my documents are stupid too.
The Catholic tradition of giving a billion middle names masses up stuff when they assume you will have one or zero.
I only have two, and it messed with things.
 
2022-06-28 10:15:31 AM  
TFA is quite right that conventions vary wildly across India. small and incomplete data set: some places you take your father's forename as your surname. some places your surname is the name of your village. some places (as TFA mentions) you only have 1 name - an old boss was in that category. so he used his first name as his surname, and took an abbreviated version of his hometown's name as his first name (like, his new first name that he always used personally and professionally, responded to, expected to be called, was simply something such as "RJS")
 
2022-06-28 10:16:41 AM  
Safa Khan didn't think her Canadian passport would prove to be such a hassle when she first moved from Delhi to London, Ont., nearly 10 years ago.

Safa Khan...

Safa, Safa, Safa, Safa Khan
Safa  Khan, Safa Khan, Safa Khan
Safa Khan, let me rock you
Let me rock you, Safa Khan
Let me rock you, that's all I wanna do
Safa Khan, let me rock you
Let me rock you, Safa Khan
Let me rock you, 'cause I feel for you
 
2022-06-28 10:17:38 AM  
I know an Indian guy who has only one name. I think his ID lists his first name as "Mr."
 
2022-06-28 10:18:50 AM  
Better than Robert');DROP TABLE PASSPORTS;
 
2022-06-28 10:19:45 AM  

tintar: TFA is quite right that conventions vary wildly across India. small and incomplete data set: some places you take your father's forename as your surname. some places your surname is the name of your village. some places (as TFA mentions) you only have 1 name - an old boss was in that category. so he used his first name as his surname, and took an abbreviated version of his hometown's name as his first name (like, his new first name that he always used personally and professionally, responded to, expected to be called, was simply something such as "RJS")


Suddenly the joke in Friends about Rachel's chiropractor being named Dr. Bobbi Bobbi makes a hell of a lot more sense.
 
2022-06-28 10:20:40 AM  

Ambitwistor: I know an Indian guy who has only one name. I think his ID lists his first name as "Mr."


thetravellady.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
 
2022-06-28 10:21:53 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-06-28 10:21:57 AM  

Ambitwistor: I know an Indian guy who has only one name. I think his ID lists his first name as "Mr."


Dear Indian Guy,

Happens all the time.

Sincerely,
Cher
Madonna
Flea
Adele
Charo
 
2022-06-28 10:22:31 AM  
I like the bit about the university student who refuses to fix her name issue because it takes effort (a whole $122 and some waiting), but also complains about needing to get notarised documents for everything because of the name issue. As if those are fully free and take no time at all.

/Also: stfu about the systemic racism
//If you move to a different country you don't get to complain they designed their society according to their customs
///Yes, it needs to be fixed, but it is not racist
 
2022-06-28 10:22:52 AM  

Ragin' Asian: [Fark user image 425x320]


And we're done here.
 
2022-06-28 10:23:34 AM  
PROTIP:  When emigrating from an area that doesn't use surnames to an area that does, pick a surname.
 
2022-06-28 10:26:05 AM  

Juc: Hell I was born in Canada and my documents are stupid too.
The Catholic tradition of giving a billion middle names masses up stuff when they assume you will have one or zero.
I only have two, and it messed with things.


Same story in the US. It's amazing to me that anything still in use today either doesn't support spaces in name fields or has an arbitrary character limit. Sometimes there's even a whole "oh god this has never happened before it's my first day where am I" committee meeting over just letting me pick one to get it over with.

/Thankfully arcades already prepared me for this.
 
2022-06-28 10:28:19 AM  

DerAppie: I like the bit about the university student who refuses to fix her name issue because it takes effort (a whole $122 and some waiting), but also complains about needing to get notarised documents for everything because of the name issue. As if those are fully free and take no time at all.

/Also: stfu about the systemic racism
//If you move to a different country you don't get to complain they designed their society according to their customs
///Yes, it needs to be fixed, but it is not racist


"It's not racist for this expensive and time-consuming problem to regularly happen to people of only one race."
 
2022-06-28 10:31:25 AM  

Mouser: PROTIP:  When emigrating from an area that doesn't use surnames to an area that does, pick a surname.


That's not a protip.

You're not pro., infact you know nothing of the subject.

You don't get to make up your own name. Your name is what is what is on your documents.
 
2022-06-28 10:32:30 AM  
This is pretty common with Indian employees in HR systems.

Have a client where every third person has the FNU value for first name (first name unknown) because the HR drones were too lazy to go back in and reach out for clarification, instead opting to transcribe the names verbatim from the form into the system under family name, no spaces.

The worst I've seen though, was a client who used a fly by night bodyshop that assigned THE SAME GUY on two teams because he was in their system once as FNU and once as his name on the correct lines and their paper pushers were too stupid to compare ITINs. He was fully remote and dutifully did as he was told, called into every meeting as instructed twice until someone realized that two people with "does not meet expectations" performance reviews had similar names and HR flagged the PIP approval, investigated it on concerns that there might be bias towards them 😂. The tolerance levels for bureaucratic bullshiat in that culture is phenomenal (even higher than Americans as far as I can tell).
 
2022-06-28 10:32:41 AM  
When I did clinicals at a local hospital I was surprised at the number of staff who were perplexed by a chart that had the patient's First Name or Last Name listed as "UNK".

"what do we call him?" the charge nurse would say, "Mr UNK?"

This usually involved a patient named MOHAMMED.

When admitted, they only had that one name.  Since all fields had to be filled in, they used UNK (UNKNOWN) but no one ever told the nursing staff.  Some had been there for a couple decades and were still clueless about this.
 
2022-06-28 10:39:42 AM  
decades before I even met the family, my ex-FIL had decided his name was Steve. not legally or anything, mind. just that I never heard anyone call him otherwise. not even when speaking Gujarati or Hindi, lol.

then again, at least half the time no one even uses names but rather just whatever correct morphosyntactic dealie (I know there's a word for this, but it evades) for family/relatives/friends/etc. (and gets complex because there are conditions) - and the meaning is understood by context.
 
2022-06-28 10:41:33 AM  

UltimaCS: DerAppie: I like the bit about the university student who refuses to fix her name issue because it takes effort (a whole $122 and some waiting), but also complains about needing to get notarised documents for everything because of the name issue. As if those are fully free and take no time at all.

/Also: stfu about the systemic racism
//If you move to a different country you don't get to complain they designed their society according to their customs
///Yes, it needs to be fixed, but it is not racist

"It's not racist for this expensive and time-consuming problem to regularly happen to people of only one race."


Not per definition, no.

It is something that flows from their culture, not their race. It is completely normal that an immigrant will see things that do not fit with the culture of his or her native country. Western countries deal with people having at least a first and a last name. If a system can't deal with someone without a first name, that is not a racist system. It was build to support the local population. Not that of India.
 
2022-06-28 10:42:15 AM  

Mouser: PROTIP:  When emigrating from an area that doesn't use surnames to an area that does, pick a surname.


Even in Europe, having a first and last name is a relative innovation.

This is less a cultural thing than a convention we've adopted in order to facilitate a large, relatively organized modern society.
 
2022-06-28 10:42:36 AM  
oh, next we should do 19th-century Chinese name-mangling in the US!

your first name is... Ah!
or
your last name is... Ah! (truly one of the most bizarre forms of hypercorrection I have ever seen)
 
2022-06-28 10:44:51 AM  

UltimaCS: DerAppie: I like the bit about the university student who refuses to fix her name issue because it takes effort (a whole $122 and some waiting), but also complains about needing to get notarised documents for everything because of the name issue. As if those are fully free and take no time at all.

/Also: stfu about the systemic racism
//If you move to a different country you don't get to complain they designed their society according to their customs
///Yes, it needs to be fixed, but it is not racist

"It's not racist for this expensive and time-consuming problem to regularly happen to people of only one race."


It's not though.  The passport system was designed with having a surname and a prename.  If you don't fill out the form, or only provide one name what should they do?

It doesn't help that these systems are usually old and expensive to upgrade either.  When you move to another country there's an expectation that you assimilate to their laws and regulations.  The passport system used here doesn't work for just one surname, it's on the person making the application to split it.

It might be stupid and outdated, but it's not racist.
 
2022-06-28 10:45:36 AM  

DerAppie: UltimaCS: DerAppie: I like the bit about the university student who refuses to fix her name issue because it takes effort (a whole $122 and some waiting), but also complains about needing to get notarised documents for everything because of the name issue. As if those are fully free and take no time at all.

/Also: stfu about the systemic racism
//If you move to a different country you don't get to complain they designed their society according to their customs
///Yes, it needs to be fixed, but it is not racist

"It's not racist for this expensive and time-consuming problem to regularly happen to people of only one race."

Not per definition, no.

It is something that flows from their culture, not their race. It is completely normal that an immigrant will see things that do not fit with the culture of his or her native country. Western countries deal with people having at least a first and a last name. If a system can't deal with someone without a first name, that is not a racist system. It was build to support the local population. Not that of India.


A CRT course would blow your farkin' mind.
 
2022-06-28 10:48:28 AM  

Aquapope: President Not Sure will fix this.  He's smart.


Stolen. I'm calling him that from now on.
 
2022-06-28 10:49:40 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


/ I know of at least one Farker who will know where this is
 
2022-06-28 10:50:10 AM  

Ketchuponsteak: Mouser: PROTIP:  When emigrating from an area that doesn't use surnames to an area that does, pick a surname.

That's not a protip.

You're not pro., infact you know nothing of the subject.

You don't get to make up your own name. Your name is what is what is on your documents.



Interesting thing I encountered in the past. At one point I was considering staying in Shanghai after having been there for some time with stable employment.

At the time, when you applied for their equivalent of permanent residency you got a local id, and were instructed to pick a name in Chinese characters. They didn't care what it was or have any interest in transliterating foreign names. The government preferenced the convenience of locals over public knowledge of absolute identity/origin because they give you a number, keep your records on file associated keyed to it and as a result know who you are regardless of your local alias.
 
2022-06-28 10:50:52 AM  

Sushi and the Banshees: Ambitwistor: I know an Indian guy who has only one name. I think his ID lists his first name as "Mr."

Dear Indian Guy,

Happens all the time.

Sincerely,
Cher
Madonna
Flea
Adele
Charo


You mean Cherilyn Sarkasian, Madonna Ciccone, Michael Peter Balzary, Adele Laurie Blue Atkins (OK, two middle names screws up some things; see Juc's post above) and María Rosario Pilar Martínez Molina Baeza (wow...)?
 
2022-06-28 10:52:24 AM  
The only reason it is expensive and difficult to upgrade government technology is because...wait for it...the government wants it to be! Ta-da!
 
2022-06-28 10:52:25 AM  

Nick Nostril: [Fark user image 850x524]

/ I know of at least one Farker who will know where this is


"Every-one-here's-completely-blind-town"?
 
2022-06-28 10:54:31 AM  

raius: UltimaCS: DerAppie: I like the bit about the university student who refuses to fix her name issue because it takes effort (a whole $122 and some waiting), but also complains about needing to get notarised documents for everything because of the name issue. As if those are fully free and take no time at all.

/Also: stfu about the systemic racism
//If you move to a different country you don't get to complain they designed their society according to their customs
///Yes, it needs to be fixed, but it is not racist

"It's not racist for this expensive and time-consuming problem to regularly happen to people of only one race."

It's not though.  The passport system was designed with having a surname and a prename.  If you don't fill out the form, or only provide one name what should they do?

It doesn't help that these systems are usually old and expensive to upgrade either.  When you move to another country there's an expectation that you assimilate to their laws and regulations.  The passport system used here doesn't work for just one surname, it's on the person making the application to split it.

It might be stupid and outdated, but it's not racist.


I understand where you're coming from, and I approve of the application of Hanlon's razor. It's worth noting that the general consensus as to whether or not something is racist is "does it have a racist outcome?" The argument can be successfully made for structural racism here because it unduly and in out-sized proportion effects people along ethnic boundaries.
 
2022-06-28 10:58:00 AM  

Ambitwistor: I know an Indian guy who has only one name. I think his ID lists his first name as "Mr."


I have seen "FNU" used often by payroll providers.


/first name unused
//it's ok that you didn't get it right away, I didn't either
///threebedeebedee
 
2022-06-28 11:01:59 AM  
picclickimg.comView Full Size
 
2022-06-28 11:02:44 AM  

raius: UltimaCS: DerAppie: I like the bit about the university student who refuses to fix her name issue because it takes effort (a whole $122 and some waiting), but also complains about needing to get notarised documents for everything because of the name issue. As if those are fully free and take no time at all.

/Also: stfu about the systemic racism
//If you move to a different country you don't get to complain they designed their society according to their customs
///Yes, it needs to be fixed, but it is not racist

"It's not racist for this expensive and time-consuming problem to regularly happen to people of only one race."

It's not though.  The passport system was designed with having a surname and a prename.  If you don't fill out the form, or only provide one name what should they do?

It doesn't help that these systems are usually old and expensive to upgrade either.  When you move to another country there's an expectation that you assimilate to their laws and regulations.  The passport system used here doesn't work for just one surname, it's on the person making the application to split it.

It might be stupid and outdated, but it's not racist.


It's not racist. But it is culturalist. It assumes a naming convention used in the culture of the people who programmed the software. If that culture used a first middle last name system, program would have required three names to be entered. The programmers did not assume a specific race, but did assume a specific culture (theirs).

Suppose the coders were Icelandic and had a simple subroutine that added the suffix "-dottir" or "-sson" to a person's last name based on the choice of "M" or "F" (or their icelandic equivalent). That would work very well with most Icelanders, but would work poorly even with other Nordic nstions such as Norway or Denmark. Culturally and racially, Icelanders and Norwegians are fairly similar, but such a subroutine would only work well with Icelanders.
 
2022-06-28 11:06:15 AM  
I worked for an English teaching branch of a school once. So many "Mohammad Mohammad"s

You had to be flexible, and it's generally not difficult. One part is making sure that people filling out the form have some guidelines to work with.

The reason there's so many "johnsons" and such in some European countries is because that was the advice given out.

But I always made sure there was "Given name" "Other names" and "Family name" and never termed "first" or "last" because the first name in many Asian countries is the Family name. I also made sure that there was plenty of space to store names. I mean no one is "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" but not everyone is "Tom" either.
 
2022-06-28 11:08:42 AM  
An Indian named XXX?!  That's RACIST!!1!
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-06-28 11:11:58 AM  
How about the people from India and China and Russia all stay home ? 

Fark you all , get out to your own gigantic countries and fix them.

You insist your kids are all attorneys, doctors, and engineers - go tend to the BILLIONS on the Asian continent.
 
2022-06-28 11:13:51 AM  
This is NOT what Sir Mix-A-Lot meant by a XXX throwdown.
 
2022-06-28 11:16:22 AM  

rubi_con_man: How about the people from India and China and Russia all stay home ? 

Fark you all , get out to your own gigantic countries and fix them.

You insist your kids are all attorneys, doctors, and engineers - go tend to the BILLIONS on the Asian continent.


i.imgflip.comView Full Size
 
2022-06-28 11:19:29 AM  

Russ1642: When I was in high school I knew a refugee from Vietnam. They had screwed up her birthday when she got here so she was like 16 and her drivers license said she was 22.


She would have been the most popular girl in school, for purely alcoholic reasons.
 
2022-06-28 11:22:14 AM  
I hear if you are coming from France, you can bribe them to use XYZ.
 
2022-06-28 11:22:16 AM  

johnphantom: Aquapope: President Not Sure will fix this.  He's smart.

Stolen. I'm calling him that from now on.


Not really sure how you're gonna steal it, it was a big joke in the movie, everybody knows it.  His name is Joe Bauers, but the really stupid people call him Not Sure, so you go right ahead.
 
2022-06-28 11:24:45 AM  
I've been waiting for Bollywood to produce some of those films. About time.
 
2022-06-28 11:31:27 AM  

Arkanaut: In a followup email late Monday, another IRCC spokesperson, Peter Liang, said passport holders with XXX as their first name can return their valid passport and have it replaced with a blank in their given-name field at no extra charge.

Great, instead of "XXX" as your first name, it could just be no first name at all. What an elegant solution that will have no unintended consequences at all!


FNU
 
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