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(NBC News)   Wisconsin's 1849 abortion ban allows abortion providers to be sentenced to 1-6 years. Wisconsin's Gov. Tony Evans (D-termined) will grant clemency to anyone convicted under the law   (nbcnews.com) divider line
    More: Giggity, Democratic Party, Supreme Court of the United States, Wisconsin Gov. Tony Evers, Roe v. Wade, President of the United States, Supreme Court, Human rights, United States  
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472 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Jun 2022 at 7:15 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-06-28 7:18:53 AM  
I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.
 
2022-06-28 7:21:22 AM  
that's good, currently all American women are just victims in waiting.
 
2022-06-28 7:23:05 AM  

Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.


Violate the what now?

"I will use those dietary regimens which will benefit my patients according to my greatest ability and judgment, and I will do no harm or injustice to them.[6] Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessaryto cause abortion. "

Good news, most don't actually swear the actual Hippocratic Oath.
 
2022-06-28 7:23:09 AM  

Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.


On the other side of that...there are medical professionals who don't think that it violates their professional ethics to lie to their patients.
 
2022-06-28 7:26:53 AM  

iheartscotch: Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.

On the other side of that...there are medical professionals who don't think that it violates their professional ethics to lie to their patients.


And we're going to find out what side of the line doctors stand.
Because the conservatives are forcing doctors to choose between following an  unjust law or betraying their patients.
Don't forget that many doctors have the financial means to actually pick up and move somewhere else.
I believe a lot of health care professionals will simply abandon rural areas and red states. Mostly as a matter of self preservation.
 
2022-06-28 7:31:45 AM  
Well, that solves that. Hey, let's build a bunch of other laws based off of what the Governor thinks.
 
2022-06-28 7:33:02 AM  

leeksfromchichis: Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.

Violate the what now?

"I will use those dietary regimens which will benefit my patients according to my greatest ability and judgment, and I will do no harm or injustice to them.[6] Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessaryto cause abortion. "

Good news, most don't actually swear the actual Hippocratic Oath.


"As of 2018 all US medical school graduates made made some form of public oath but none used the original Hippocratic Oath. A modified form or an oath unique to that school is often used. A review of 18 of these oaths was criticized for their wide variability: "Consistency would help society see that physicians are members of a profession that's committed to a shared set of essential ethical values."[40]"
 
2022-06-28 7:33:39 AM  
One would think states would periodically review laws that are on the books and overturn archaic legislation such as this and ridiculous blue laws
 
2022-06-28 7:34:39 AM  

Weaver95: iheartscotch: Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.

On the other side of that...there are medical professionals who don't think that it violates their professional ethics to lie to their patients.

And we're going to find out what side of the line doctors stand.
Because the conservatives are forcing doctors to choose between following an  unjust law or betraying their patients.
Don't forget that many doctors have the financial means to actually pick up and move somewhere else.
I believe a lot of health care professionals will simply abandon rural areas and red states. Mostly as a matter of self preservation.


I know that if I spent 10 years of my life working like mad to become a doctor to help people, and then suddenly the government tells me that they are going to put me in jail for doing certain types of services that THEY consider to be "wrong", for some reason, I would totally pack the fark up and move out of that state.

I would move right across the border to a state that is safe.
 
2022-06-28 7:40:35 AM  
Something else to consider - insurance rates for ob/gyn care in red states WILL skyrocket. That's gonna cause some interesting changes in red states health care systems as well.
 
2022-06-28 7:42:22 AM  
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2022-06-28 7:44:38 AM  
Law sounds unconstitutional anyway (Power to determine legality of abortion is clearly not given to the federal government in the originally ratified Constitution, and per the 14th Amendment states are not permitted to abridge rights and privileges of citizens.

Of course, with the current SCOTUS lineup, the "strict Constitutionalists" only strictly interpret the Constitution when it lines up with what they want it to say, otherwise they'll wipe their asses with it, so that doesn't seem to matter.

Good for Gov. Evans in this case, hopefully others will follow suit where needed.
 
2022-06-28 7:45:47 AM  
Sure, many doctors would move to a friendlier state, but I remember our family medicine MD back when we lived in Beaver Dam WI back in the 90s who turned out to be a very conservative churchy type. Doctors might just sort themselves geographically, like a lot of other people.

Still, though, that'll result in worse care and worse medical outcomes in red areas. Even worse than they already have.
 
2022-06-28 7:51:06 AM  
Well, that was kind of the point of the repeal.  State Legislatures need to start doing their jobs.  Abortion has
always belonged in the purview of law makers.

Quit hiding behind the Supreme Court; do some work and pass a common sense abortion law.
 
2022-06-28 7:52:32 AM  

Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.


I think if you're a doctor, you deserve what you get if you're stupid enough to remain in a red state.

Triply so if you're not a white male doctor.
 
2022-06-28 7:55:23 AM  

Ragin' Asian: One would think states would periodically review laws that are on the books and overturn archaic legislation such as this and ridiculous blue laws


These laws against abortion were specifically placed on this books for the day when the 40 year long conservative push to overturn Roe v. Wade happened.

Just as the laws defining marriage as a bond between a man and a woman are on the books for when that's overturned. And personally, if I were Sotomeyer, when it comes up I'd vote to overturn Loving v. Virginiajust as a massive fark you to Thomas.

\ But that's why I'm not a judge.
 
2022-06-28 7:55:27 AM  

phaseolus: Sure, many doctors would move to a friendlier state, but I remember our family medicine MD back when we lived in Beaver Dam WI back in the 90s who turned out to be a very conservative churchy type. Doctors might just sort themselves geographically, like a lot of other people.

Still, though, that'll result in worse care and worse medical outcomes in red areas. Even worse than they already have.


Even the ultra conservative doctors will still be forced to deal with higher insurance rates tho. And it'll be a smaller pool of doctors paying into those insurance plans.
Yet another unintentional consequence that conservatives never expected.
 
2022-06-28 7:59:14 AM  
He reminds me of George Burns
 
2022-06-28 8:04:10 AM  

Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.


Ob's are already hard to find in many areas.  For a while now (not sure if it's gotten any better) just about every idiot who's kid gets autism or any other cognitive issue rants online about "birth injuries" would sue the doctor who delivered the kid so the malpractice rates were through the roof.
 
2022-06-28 8:06:09 AM  

Weaver95: iheartscotch: Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.

On the other side of that...there are medical professionals who don't think that it violates their professional ethics to lie to their patients.

And we're going to find out what side of the line doctors stand.
Because the conservatives are forcing doctors to choose between following an  unjust law or betraying their patients.
Don't forget that many doctors have the financial means to actually pick up and move somewhere else.
I believe a lot of health care professionals will simply abandon rural areas and red states. Mostly as a matter of self preservation.


My cousin left a hospital Pittsburg after it was sold to a job creator and they cut staff salaries and benefits (many staff left).  They then moved to rural PA to a private practice and ended up fighting screaming Q-nuts as they were sedated and put on ventilators during the peak of Covid.  The money was really good, and they didn't mind being called a Soros round earth liar or whatever propaganda they shouted.  Lots of very high hourly billing paid for by the government.  Luckily they are in great physical condition to tackle disorderly Trump voters with raging covid.

I think most MDs will go where the money is.  Thanks to the ACA and a focus on PCPs, more medical professionals can move to rural areas if they want.
Once SCOTUS overturns the ACA though rural areas are going to implode, and the country will be deep into a recession with the massive contraction of federal spending.
Oh well, can't stack the court so we will just get deeper and deeper into a constitutional crisis.  What could go wrong?
 
2022-06-28 8:10:31 AM  

Weaver95: iheartscotch: Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.

On the other side of that...there are medical professionals who don't think that it violates their professional ethics to lie to their patients.

And we're going to find out what side of the line doctors stand.
Because the conservatives are forcing doctors to choose between following an  unjust law or betraying their patients.
Don't forget that many doctors have the financial means to actually pick up and move somewhere else.
I believe a lot of health care professionals will simply abandon rural areas and red states. Mostly as a matter of self preservation.


While i totally understand why doctors and nurses would leave, hopefully many stay. There are a lot of non insane people in red states who don't have the means of relocating. They deserve medical care too.
 
2022-06-28 8:11:45 AM  

Ragin' Asian: One would think states would periodically review laws that are on the books and overturn archaic legislation such as this and ridiculous blue laws


Ours was a third rail nobody wanted to touch especially if they wanted to be governor or run for a federal seat some day.  And Roe being precedent make inaction ok.  Not even Tommy Thompson who was governor for 14 years and wiped the floor with most of his opponents and was as Catholic as the day is long ever got that serious about it.
 
2022-06-28 8:12:06 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Well, that was kind of the point of the repeal.  State Legislatures need to start doing their jobs.  Abortion has
always belonged in the purview of law makers.

Quit hiding behind the Supreme Court; do some work and pass a common sense abortion law.


Abortion belongs to doctors and their patients. No one else.
 
2022-06-28 8:13:08 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Well, that was kind of the point of the repeal.  State Legislatures need to start doing their jobs.  Abortion has
always belonged in the purview of law makers.

Quit hiding behind the Supreme Court; do some work and pass a common sense abortion law.


But also, this is a terrible idea because state legislatures are batshiat insane. SCOTUS pushed it on them for exactly that reason.
 
2022-06-28 8:15:22 AM  
That's great but one is going to risk that overall. Especially somber anything happening today probably wouldn't be prosecuted for a year. I like the guy, but he might not be guv'nor next year.
 
2022-06-28 8:16:14 AM  
Unfortunately, wouldn't clemency still leave a felony record and damage your ability to practice medicine. I would think a pardon would be better.
 
2022-06-28 8:29:03 AM  

Shotgun Justice: Unfortunately, wouldn't clemency still leave a felony record and damage your ability to practice medicine. I would think a pardon would be better.


Pardons are a form of clemency. You're probably thinking of commutation, the other common form of clemency.
 
2022-06-28 8:36:09 AM  

Ragin' Asian: One would think states would periodically review laws that are on the books and overturn archaic legislation such as this and ridiculous blue laws


A few years back legislators in Virginia attempted to repeal the law against oral sex (of any kind, hetero included)

Note I say attempted- it took multiple attempts over 15 years to actually stop a blowie from being a felony.

I'm sure you can guess why.

/Felon :^)
 
2022-06-28 8:40:31 AM  

LL316: While i totally understand why doctors and nurses would leave, hopefully many stay. There are a lot of non insane people in red states who don't have the means of relocating. They deserve medical care too.


Then they shouldn't have let Republicans overturn Roe v Wade and destroy health care.
🤷‍♀
I think doctors will go where they can practice medicine and not risk jail for saving a patient's life. It'll be up to the patient to come to them.
 
2022-06-28 8:47:03 AM  

animal color: Good news, most don't actually swear the actual Hippocratic Oath.

"As of 2018 all US medical school graduates made made some form of public oath but none used the original Hippocratic Oath. A modified form or an oath unique to that school is often used. A review of 18 of these oaths was criticized for their wide variability: "Consistency would help society see that physicians are members of a profession that's committed to a shared set of essential ethical values."[40]"


It might surprise old people to know this, but absent some sort of legal consequence, most people in the modern era regard these sorts of archaic oaths as just some random words they have to recite to get to where they want to be. Basically magic spells for the computer age.
 
2022-06-28 9:01:57 AM  
Don't let the government come between you and your doctor.

Remember when that was a GOP mantra?
 
2022-06-28 9:04:22 AM  
Isn't it fun that in order to get an abortion in Wisconsin, the entire state has to be informed of it?
 
2022-06-28 9:44:00 AM  
Also, there's an election in November, so this only buys a few months for women in Wisconsin.
 
2022-06-28 9:57:00 AM  

Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.


I remember last year the ERA was back in the news cycle (finally ratified ?). I know some state have the ERA in their state constitutions so I'm thinking that there is A LOT of legal argument that an amended constitution will overwhelm the opinions of 6 muthafarking crypto-fascists currently sitting on the SC.

IANAL, but the text reads as follows...

Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

"Opposition to the amendment was particularly high among religious conservatives, who argued that the amendment would guarantee universal abortion rights and the right for homosexual couples to marry."
 
2022-06-28 11:04:26 AM  

exqqqme: Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.

I remember last year the ERA was back in the news cycle (finally ratified ?). I know some state have the ERA in their state constitutions so I'm thinking that there is A LOT of legal argument that an amended constitution will overwhelm the opinions of 6 muthafarking crypto-fascists currently sitting on the SC.

IANAL, but the text reads as follows...

Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

"Opposition to the amendment was particularly high among religious conservatives, who argued that the amendment would guarantee universal abortion rights and the right for homosexual couples to marry."


I don't think it was ratified.

The deadline wasn't extended past 1982, and  5 states rescinded their ratification.

Not 100% sure of its current status, but I think the house voted to eliminate the deadline, but the senate hasn't done anything that I'm aware of.  Then there's those states that recinded ratification to figure out.

Here's a recent story about it:
https://www.npr.org/2022/03/22/1086978928/50-years-ago-sex-equality-seemed-destined-for-the-constitution-what-happened
 
2022-06-28 11:07:43 AM  

exqqqme: Weaver95: I think a lot of doctors are going to just abandon red states. Many health care workers were already disgusted by conservatives after the COVID pandemic and have already been physically assaulted by conservatives patients and relatives.
Forcing doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath is probably going to be the final insult that breaks the rural health care system. They're just gonna leave for somewhere else.

I remember last year the ERA was back in the news cycle (finally ratified ?). I know some state have the ERA in their state constitutions so I'm thinking that there is A LOT of legal argument that an amended constitution will overwhelm the opinions of 6 muthafarking crypto-fascists currently sitting on the SC.

IANAL, but the text reads as follows...

Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

"Opposition to the amendment was particularly high among religious conservatives, who argued that the amendment would guarantee universal abortion rights and the right for homosexual couples to marry."


Also, I'm not sure the ERA would help.  It could end up forcing a language change from "pregnant women" to pregnant person" or something, and it doesn't say who's rights are equal exactly.  The Supreme Court could just judge that the woman's right to her body is equal to that of the fetus, and she can not be given special rights to it that are different from those of the fetus'.
 
2022-06-28 12:13:04 PM  
I am just running off memory here, but isn't the Wisconsin law just about extremely late term abortions?  I could have sworn its law specifically referenced pregnancies that had "quickened".
 
2022-06-28 12:28:17 PM  
Something I've been thinking about this morning, doctors are licensed by the states because in the past all doctoring was local. With the advent of telemedicine this can now be cross state line commerce. Cross state line commerce is within the purview of the federal government to regulate. Start licensing telemedicine doctors at the federal level. Legalize the dispensing of medicine through the mail at the federal level and at least most of the abortions that are early (which are all normally just meds) can proceed without interruption. The Court can't object since it regulation of interstate commerce.
 
2022-06-28 1:59:15 PM  

Ragin' Asian: One would think states would periodically review laws that are on the books and overturn archaic legislation such as this and ridiculous blue laws


They keep them around just in case they get the chance to use them again.

Why do you think so many states still have anti-sodomy laws on the books?
 
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