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(MSN)   Why is the airline industry in a mess? Blame the 1500-hour rule   (msn.com) divider line
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2220 clicks; posted to Business » on 25 Jun 2022 at 4:25 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-06-25 12:49:00 AM  
That industry has gone downhill since 9/11. I can tell when I fly.
 
2022-06-25 2:18:16 AM  
It's probably less the rule than the unappealing shiat-tier salary you get trying to make 1500 hours.
 
2022-06-25 2:39:26 AM  
This is actually a pretty decent article.
 
2022-06-25 3:01:21 AM  
That same year in New York State, 1,148 people were killed in road accidents, an average of two per day, meaning on average every two weeks in the Empire State, around 50 people died in traffic accidents.

Really? How can anyone fail so completely at basic math - not just once, but twice in the same sentence?
 
2022-06-25 3:07:21 AM  

Farking Clown Shoes: That same year in New York State, 1,148 people were killed in road accidents, an average of two per day, meaning on average every two weeks in the Empire State, around 50 people died in traffic accidents.

Really? How can anyone fail so completely at basic math - not just once, but twice in the same sentence?


I just saw that and had to bite down to keep from going into a shouting rant. Literally 5 seconds on the calculator app in whichever system he wrote this on to double check those numbers.

(FWIW the averages are about 3 per day and roughly 22 per week)
 
2022-06-25 4:31:37 AM  
No subby, the reason airlines struggle is piss poor compensation, management that only cares about the shareholders and a long list of other self inflicted wounds. Passing the buck to one rule does not make it the sole factor when its actually one of many on the long list, and not even in the top 30
 
2022-06-25 4:54:20 AM  
airlines been going downhill since 1981 when Regan fired the ATC, and people realized Unions were weak and didn't need to be negotiated with
 
2022-06-25 6:06:27 AM  
This is not to say that any deaths are acceptable, but in our technological world, it's part of the risk we assume as we travel from place to place.

(a) millions more car trips are made every day
(b) cars continue to have new safety features added to reduce deaths and they work
 
2022-06-25 6:40:29 AM  

Maybe you should drive: This is actually a pretty decent article.


User name checks out....
 
2022-06-25 6:41:40 AM  

Maybe you should drive: This is actually a pretty decent article.


Yup, we should get rid of all regulations and let the free market sort them out.
Heck, a fetus should be able to drive a car.
 
2022-06-25 7:47:30 AM  

optikeye: Maybe you should drive: This is actually a pretty decent article.

Yup, we should get rid of all regulations and let the free market sort them out.
Heck, a fetus should be able to drive a car.


I don't know about fetuses, but maybe toonces the cat?
 
2022-06-25 7:48:13 AM  
The airlines are the cheapest bastards on the face of the earth and won't pay for good help.  They weren't even paying flight attendants until the doors were shut until just recently.  Greedy bastages are greedy.
 
2022-06-25 8:07:10 AM  
The Colgan pilot was under-skilled and failed or should have failed some check rides. He stalled and kept pulling into the stall, somewhat similar to that Air France crash in the Atlantic.


The 1,500 hour rule didn't fix that problem.
 
2022-06-25 8:22:44 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: The airlines are the cheapest bastards on the face of the earth and won't pay for good help.  They weren't even paying flight attendants until the doors were shut until just recently.  Greedy bastages are greedy.


My Uncle used to work Piedmont as an airplane mechanic and when they were bought by USAir he said everything went downhill, parts that Piedmont used to replace He either had to "repair it" or use a lower quality part which would wear out much quicker.  He got so fed up with not being able to repair the planes to the standards He knew was right that he moved to the motor pool for his last 2 years.  His facebook is loaded with love for Piedmont (with his fellow past Piedmont friends) and utter hatred of USAir
 
2022-06-25 8:28:16 AM  
What should be done? A great start would be to cut the ATP requirement altogether or cut the hours required to 750, or even 500 total time.


Why stop there? Get your pilots license online via MS Flight Simulator correspondence course.

How are we doing on 16 year olds driving 18-wheelers?  We pass that yet?
 
2022-06-25 9:10:15 AM  

mrmopar5287: The Colgan pilot was under-skilled and failed or should have failed some check rides. He stalled and kept pulling into the stall, somewhat similar to that Air France crash in the Atlantic.


When you stall, altitude is your friend.   You get altitude by pulling back on the stick/yoke. That makes perfect sense!

99+% of the time when a plane stalls, it is because you are intentionally going slow and still need to pull back to induce a stall for training.  It is done on every biennial flight review and many of times during training to teach pilots how to recover from a stall.  It sounds like that pilot took action of hearing stall warning sound, pull back until a full stall then recover was ingrained.  You generally don't get handed a stalled plane with instructions of "fix it" until you are doing pilot instructor training.

It is amazing how ingrained some actions are.  I left the steering wheel adjustment unlocked on my car and after flying, I would pull back if I wanted to slow down just a bit.  It doesn't work any better than pulling back in a stall.
 
2022-06-25 9:13:16 AM  

kkinnison: airlines been going downhill since 1981 when Regan fired the ATC, and people realized Unions were weak and didn't need to be negotiated with


I bet the aviation industry is pretty strong union-wise. Everyone involved has a safety card up their sleeve.

I came into this thread to call TFA bullshiat. They just want to be able to hire less qualified help. Like many states will do with teachers.
 
2022-06-25 9:13:58 AM  

kdawg7736: That industry has gone downhill since 9/11. I can tell when I fly.


Well before 9/11 they were in trouble, it just takes time to manifest.

Airlines have spent DECADES turning being a pilot from a well-paying, family supporting job into a meat grinder. Ask yourself: "Why does nobody want to be a pilot?" Because, at least until you get to the top level, you're being paid starvation wages. You often have two or three jobs. You work terrible hours. Benefits? Ha!

The rules didn't get airlines here, except to make it harder for the leadership to cover up their incompetence.
 
2022-06-25 9:19:16 AM  

Warrior Kermit: Marcus Aurelius: The airlines are the cheapest bastards on the face of the earth and won't pay for good help.  They weren't even paying flight attendants until the doors were shut until just recently.  Greedy bastages are greedy.

My Uncle used to work Piedmont as an airplane mechanic and when they were bought by USAir he said everything went downhill, parts that Piedmont used to replace He either had to "repair it" or use a lower quality part which would wear out much quicker.  He got so fed up with not being able to repair the planes to the standards He knew was right that he moved to the motor pool for his last 2 years.  His facebook is loaded with love for Piedmont (with his fellow past Piedmont friends) and utter hatred of USAir


USAir was renowned in the late 90's early '00's for hating their employees and their employees hating their customers. It was obvious, and made USAir my last choice for airlines*.

* Until Spirit came along
 
2022-06-25 9:21:34 AM  

mrmopar5287: The Colgan pilot was under-skilled and failed or should have failed some check rides. He stalled and kept pulling into the stall, somewhat similar to that Air France crash in the Atlantic.


The 1,500 hour rule didn't fix that problem.


I suspect the 1,500 rule wasn't the only change to come about because of that crash. It's just the one that the author has a problem with.

/could be wrong
 
2022-06-25 9:25:57 AM  

DON.MAC: mrmopar5287: The Colgan pilot was under-skilled and failed or should have failed some check rides. He stalled and kept pulling into the stall, somewhat similar to that Air France crash in the Atlantic.

When you stall, altitude is your friend.   You get altitude by pulling back on the stick/yoke. That makes perfect sense!

99+% of the time when a plane stalls, it is because you are intentionally going slow and still need to pull back to induce a stall for training.  It is done on every biennial flight review and many of times during training to teach pilots how to recover from a stall.  It sounds like that pilot took action of hearing stall warning sound, pull back until a full stall then recover was ingrained.  You generally don't get handed a stalled plane with instructions of "fix it" until you are doing pilot instructor training.

It is amazing how ingrained some actions are.  I left the steering wheel adjustment unlocked on my car and after flying, I would pull back if I wanted to slow down just a bit.  It doesn't work any better than pulling back in a stall.


Investigation of the Colgan crash pointed to pilot training. Apparently the stall recovery training scenarios had a fixed amount of altitude pilots were allowed to lose when recovering. Go below that fixed mark and you fail - do the ingrained training was a paranoia of losing as little altitude as possible. Reality is if you have a lot of altitude to work with, sacrifice more altitude for airspeed to recover and power out of the stall.

The FAA revised training to remove the fixed block of altitude and score pilots on successful recovery. If you lost more altitude than was previously allowed but you recovered nicely? Meh, that's a passing score.
 
2022-06-25 9:32:13 AM  

Chilkoot Charlie: mrmopar5287: The Colgan pilot was under-skilled and failed or should have failed some check rides. He stalled and kept pulling into the stall, somewhat similar to that Air France crash in the Atlantic.


The 1,500 hour rule didn't fix that problem.

I suspect the 1,500 rule wasn't the only change to come about because of that crash. It's just the one that the author has a problem with.

/could be wrong


the person who wrote this sounds like a cyclist pretending to care about aviation standards with all their anti car nonsense
 
2022-06-25 9:58:12 AM  

mrmopar5287: Investigation of the Colgan crash pointed to pilot training. Apparently the stall recovery training scenarios had a fixed amount of altitude pilots were allowed to lose when recovering. Go below that fixed mark and you fail - do the ingrained training was a paranoia of losing as little altitude as possible. Reality is if you have a lot of altitude to work with, sacrifice more altitude for airspeed to recover and power out of the stall.


That happens in early VFR (aka 1st private pilot license, single engine type training) not that long ago.  The rules are +/- 100 feet but instructors use to claim you had to be within 10 feet or something stilly like that for the exams.  The 2nd rating (IFR, fly in clouds) is +/- 50 feet on the check ride.  The check ride should be more about "you are approaching the limit, now what are you going to do?".  The best answer isn't "force the plane to comply".
 
2022-06-25 10:56:31 AM  
Having someone else that knows how to fly the plane competently was never a bad idea, so whether or not it would've mattered in the specific situation it was done in response to, it's a good common-sense safety rule.

The actual problem, as it is with nearly everything corporate, is greed. Billionaires don't want to have enough staff, properly train them, or pay them enough that they actually get experienced employees.
 
2022-06-25 11:19:15 AM  
My next door neighbor is a UA pilot.

He was really frustrated with all the new pilots who were training because they would not put down their phones.
I don't know if he is involved in training as well but he told me they "reluctantly" let go of someone who was doing a test in the simulator as he kept pulling out his phone the entire time.

He was told to put his dam phone away, but his response was something to the effect of "I'm fine, I can do two things at once you know".
 
2022-06-25 12:06:45 PM  

thecactusman17: Farking Clown Shoes: That same year in New York State, 1,148 people were killed in road accidents, an average of two per day, meaning on average every two weeks in the Empire State, around 50 people died in traffic accidents.

Really? How can anyone fail so completely at basic math - not just once, but twice in the same sentence?

I just saw that and had to bite down to keep from going into a shouting rant. Literally 5 seconds on the calculator app in whichever system he wrote this on to double check those numbers.

(FWIW the averages are about 3 per day and roughly 22 per week)


I don't know that it's a math error, I think it's a copy/paste error.  Higher up in the article, they talked about 2 pedestrian deaths a day on average in NYC.  My assumption is, at some point the author swapped out a statistic about pedestrian deaths with a statistic on any vehicle death, and then didn't clean up the sentences around it correctly.  It's a moo point though, cause math or editing, it's wrong either way.
 
2022-06-25 12:15:06 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: The airlines are the cheapest bastards on the face of the earth and won't pay for good help.  They weren't even paying flight attendants until the doors were shut until just recently.  Greedy bastages are greedy.


Airlines can train their own pilots to fly airplanes.  They are just too cheap to spend any money training.  They prefer for the Air Force to train them.
 
2022-06-25 12:48:22 PM  
It was the only aviation-related death in New York City that year, while there were two pedestrians killed by cars... every single day of that year on average, which resulted in no policy changes.

OK, sure, I mean, there probably should have been some policy changes in terms of cars/roads, and yes, people are scared of aviation, but also, our entire economy relies extremely heavily on cars. It doesn't at all rely on some damn helicopters. I'm not saying we should sacrifice people to car accidents for the economy, but you also can't just straight-up ban all cars in Manhattan like you can with helicopters.
 
2022-06-25 12:53:55 PM  
Also, f*ck this author. Their argument is non sequitur:  "The regulation we added after this crash wouldn't have stopped this crash, so therefore the correct move is to do the opposite" is just bonkers. He's also conflating airplane safety with availability of pilots, which is tenuously placed on the premise of "pilots are tired." And that may be a factor, but he provides no actual statistics to back this position up.

It seems to me that we should be able to pinpoint with some reasonable accuracy just how many hours are necessary to ensure that pilots are well qualified. Yes, accidents will happen, but how many accidents happen with 500 hours versus 2000 hours? Shouldn't we know by now? Shouldn't we have plenty of data to crunch on this?

If he thinks it should be 500-750 hours, fine, but he should also be able to demonstrate why. (And he also needs to work on his f*cking math skills.) Until then, this just sounds like "There's a surgeon shortage. Shouldn finishing medical school even be necessary to get your medical license?"
 
2022-06-25 1:32:07 PM  

Farking Clown Shoes: That same year in New York State, 1,148 people were killed in road accidents, an average of two per day, meaning on average every two weeks in the Empire State, around 50 people died in traffic accidents.

Really? How can anyone fail so completely at basic math - not just once, but twice in the same sentence?


I know it's not what you're pointing out but I never liked those comparisons. How many of those deaths had someone driving for a living at the wheel? Or...how many air transport deaths would there be if a proportional volume of flights were captained by an average working citizen?

That's not a comparison of the relative safety of the technology, it's a comparison of the level of training of the driver.
 
2022-06-25 1:34:42 PM  
Gross incompetence was the cause of the Q400 crash, and slashing the hour requirements will only produce more of these gross negligence accidents.
Ask any military branch--time-in and hours-in-seat requirements are there for a fricking reason, and reducing them costs lives. TFA is showing that he values airline dollars over human lives.
 
2022-06-25 1:50:22 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Marcus Aurelius: The airlines are the cheapest bastards on the face of the earth and won't pay for good help.  They weren't even paying flight attendants until the doors were shut until just recently.  Greedy bastages are greedy.

Airlines can train their own pilots to fly airplanes.  They are just too cheap to spend any money training.  They prefer for the Air Force to train them.


The air force cant train them. You have to have flight hours specific to the planes you fly
 
2022-06-25 1:54:30 PM  
Oh hey, the airlines are desperately shilling to distract from their hilariously poor service and standards.

The number one reason that airlines are such a shiat show right now is because they can be. They are allowed to overbook and then refuse service to paying customers for virtually any reason once it becomes clear they've overbooked. They are allowed to call any service disruption a "weather-related disruption" and not provide any compensation to customers without anyone calling them on it. And they're allowed to pay substandard wages and push pilots and staff to dangerous levels of fatigue with no repercussions. They are allowed to keep horrible books and make idiotic financial decisions without ever having to face any consequences because bailouts are always just a phone call away.

And pilots and staff are finally sick and tired of it. Why bother working stupid hours far from home on barely any sleep in a shared flophouse with bunkbeds when you can earn just as much and be home every day working at a McDonald's?
 
2022-06-25 2:16:54 PM  
Hmm, anyone have a licensed picture of some airline pilots we can use for the article?  Screw it, I'll just use my kid's Etch A Sketch.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-06-25 2:42:59 PM  

Lusiphur: Oh hey, the airlines are desperately shilling to distract from their hilariously poor service and standards.

The number one reason that airlines are such a shiat show right now is because they can be. They are allowed to overbook and then refuse service to paying customers for virtually any reason once it becomes clear they've overbooked. They are allowed to call any service disruption a "weather-related disruption" and not provide any compensation to customers without anyone calling them on it. And they're allowed to pay substandard wages and push pilots and staff to dangerous levels of fatigue with no repercussions. They are allowed to keep horrible books and make idiotic financial decisions without ever having to face any consequences because bailouts are always just a phone call away.

And pilots and staff are finally sick and tired of it. Why bother working stupid hours far from home on barely any sleep in a shared flophouse with bunkbeds when you can earn just as much and be home every day working at a McDonald's?


Ah...I've seen you've flown USlessAir
 
2022-06-25 3:56:08 PM  
c.tenor.comView Full Size
 
2022-06-25 5:43:26 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Airlines can train their own pilots to fly airplanes.


1,500 flight hours is a big ask to provide that to new hires.
 
2022-06-25 6:18:49 PM  

mrmopar5287: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Airlines can train their own pilots to fly airplanes.

1,500 flight hours is a big ask to provide that to new hires.


That's how Lufthansa works.
 
2022-06-25 6:30:05 PM  

Concrete Donkey: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Marcus Aurelius: The airlines are the cheapest bastards on the face of the earth and won't pay for good help.  They weren't even paying flight attendants until the doors were shut until just recently.  Greedy bastages are greedy.

Airlines can train their own pilots to fly airplanes.  They are just too cheap to spend any money training.  They prefer for the Air Force to train them.

The air force cant train them. You have to have flight hours specific to the planes you fly

T

hey prefer the Air Force to give them the 1,500 initial hours.  The airlines can then train on the individual aircraft. That training is not very long.

That was the issue with the 737Max.  Boeing said 737 pilots required no training.
 
2022-06-25 6:32:21 PM  
I like how this article provides no evidence whatsoever other than "gee, 1500 is a lot of hours! Wouldn't everything be better if we didn't require 1500 hours?"
 
2022-06-25 6:50:01 PM  
From the comments at TFA, the problem is big government, Biden, mask and JAB mandates, and Biden.

Wanking intensifies...
 
2022-06-25 7:48:04 PM  

Dafatone: I like how this article provides no evidence whatsoever other than "gee, 1500 is a lot of hours! Wouldn't everything be better if we didn't require 1500 hours?"


The evidence is that there doesn't appear to be problems before (when only 250 hours was required), they found one accident with Colgan air where a pilot stalled the plane but was otherwise licensed to fly, and the knee-jerk reaction to this was increasing experience to 1,500 hours with no real evidence that was necessary.
 
2022-06-25 8:13:08 PM  
You want experience and safety or noobs and death?  Simple enough
 
2022-06-25 11:16:14 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: The airlines are the cheapest bastards on the face of the earth and won't pay for good help.  They weren't even paying flight attendants until the doors were shut until just recently.  Greedy bastages are greedy.


And that's only Delta. All the rest still operate under the same doors closed block hours rule.
 
2022-06-26 12:07:06 AM  

Warrior Kermit: Marcus Aurelius: The airlines are the cheapest bastards on the face of the earth and won't pay for good help.  They weren't even paying flight attendants until the doors were shut until just recently.  Greedy bastages are greedy.

My Uncle used to work Piedmont as an airplane mechanic and when they were bought by USAir he said everything went downhill, parts that Piedmont used to replace He either had to "repair it" or use a lower quality part which would wear out much quicker.  He got so fed up with not being able to repair the planes to the standards He knew was right that he moved to the motor pool for his last 2 years.  His facebook is loaded with love for Piedmont (with his fellow past Piedmont friends) and utter hatred of USAir


I flew a Piedmont shuttle every couple months during that time. I can confirm that our airframe, the customer service, and the space aboard all measurably declined after USAir took over.
 
2022-06-26 12:49:08 PM  

edmo: You want experience and safety or noobs and death?  Simple enough


TBH,
In the past, 250+ or so hours in something like a Beech 18 or DC-3 without ground looping it I'd argue demonstrates more of a safe pilot than a 1500 hour one in an Airbus. Disclaimer: I did ATP-CTP in an A320, appreciate the safety factors and ergonomics when extremely fatigued in midnight sim sessions.

The former military pilots with low-ish hours because they didn't fly every day have been extremely competent ones to work with, including the ones with a lot of rotor turbine time, but low fixed wing hours.

They come from standardized training with critical thinking skills that serve them well in the civilian world. TT isn't the whole story. I don't know what the answer is -- I'm sure you've met the 15k hour major airline captains that can't operate Velcro.

Btw, what are you operating now?

/why yes, getting checked out in a Twin Beech first real pilot job
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-06-26 3:49:45 PM  
I feel like this 1,500 hour rule should be revised to allow people with fewer hours to be hired as co-pilots with airlines that will pair them with more experienced pilots. There is always a pilot in command (the Captain of a crew when the other is a First Officer, or the Senior Captain for long-haul flights with multiple crew members due to rest requirements). If someone has like 500 hours, hire them as a first officer and pair them with experienced pilots on the roster to build their hours. After all, with two pilots on the flight deck, the more senior one can always say "MY PLANE!" in any weird or unusual circumstances that come up.
 
2022-06-26 5:35:17 PM  
So if I'm reading this correctly:

2002-2008 Two crashes, 100 dead
2009: Buffalo crash, 49 Dead

Enact 1500 hr rule

No domestic airline crashes since.

Therefore 1500 hr rule is bad. I guess I don't get it. I've probably skipped a vital fact but this is Fark. Hell, I read the damn thing one, not about to read it again.
 
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