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(ArtNet)   The oldest discovered mine in the Americas didn't produce coal or iron. Which explains why it was always in the red   (news.artnet.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Indigenous peoples of the Americas, Archaeology, Americas, Prehistory, United States, Paleo-Indians, Mexico, North America  
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1773 clicks; posted to STEM » on 29 May 2022 at 3:45 AM (11 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-05-29 6:21:03 AM  
Hmm - is that a mine or a quarry?  Or is there some other word that even my garbage brain doesn't have at hand?

/and yeah the joke but
//couldn't help but think
///iron or coal mines more than ten thousand years ago would confuse the hell out of a lot of -ologists
 
2022-05-29 6:38:05 AM  
Archaeologists Have Discovered the Oldest Prehistoric Mine in America-and It Was Dedicated to Sacred Ancient Art Supplies Grain Storage

Red stuff is food preservatives
 
2022-05-29 8:23:39 AM  

LewDux: Archaeologists Have Discovered the Oldest Prehistoric Mine in America-and It Was Dedicated to Sacred Ancient Art Supplies Grain Storage

Red stuff is food preservatives


Red ochre is pretty much #1 with old school ritual shiat they have found, grave offerings and the like
 
2022-05-29 8:46:47 AM  
Also, the American civilizations were all stone age. Not iron age, not even bronze age, they were stone age. They could work in soft metals (gold, silver, copper).
 
2022-05-29 9:26:09 AM  

madgonad: Also, the American civilizations were all stone age. Not iron age, not even bronze age, they were stone age. They could work in soft metals (gold, silver, copper).


It always puzzled me how they never figured out metal smelting. Red ochre is a good source of iron and it would have ended up in a fire at some point. It seems to me that at least one of the more settled civilizations would have stumbled on it by just by chance, in much the same way as it happened in the old world. Pretty sure at least a few of them made fired pottery.

/going to start building a bloomery furnace today in my backyard.
 
2022-05-29 9:40:32 AM  

Mail Order American Husband: madgonad: Also, the American civilizations were all stone age. Not iron age, not even bronze age, they were stone age. They could work in soft metals (gold, silver, copper).

It always puzzled me how they never figured out metal smelting. Red ochre is a good source of iron and it would have ended up in a fire at some point. It seems to me that at least one of the more settled civilizations would have stumbled on it by just by chance, in much the same way as it happened in the old world. Pretty sure at least a few of them made fired pottery.

/going to start building a bloomery furnace today in my backyard.


Not a hot enough fire is the problem - the development of serious business ovens had to come along to kickstart the idea of proper forges and smelting.  Iron smelting takes like 3k+F temps, not something that's gonna happen in a fire or a basic bread baking clay oven
 
2022-05-29 9:48:27 AM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: Mail Order American Husband: madgonad: Also, the American civilizations were all stone age. Not iron age, not even bronze age, they were stone age. They could work in soft metals (gold, silver, copper).

It always puzzled me how they never figured out metal smelting. Red ochre is a good source of iron and it would have ended up in a fire at some point. It seems to me that at least one of the more settled civilizations would have stumbled on it by just by chance, in much the same way as it happened in the old world. Pretty sure at least a few of them made fired pottery.

/going to start building a bloomery furnace today in my backyard.

Not a hot enough fire is the problem - the development of serious business ovens had to come along to kickstart the idea of proper forges and smelting.  Iron smelting takes like 3k+F temps, not something that's gonna happen in a fire or a basic bread baking clay oven


Which is why the Bronze Age preceded the Iron Age by several millennia--copper is a lot easier to smelt than iron.  Still beyond the Native Americans for some reason.
 
2022-05-29 10:17:33 AM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: Mail Order American Husband: madgonad: Also, the American civilizations were all stone age. Not iron age, not even bronze age, they were stone age. They could work in soft metals (gold, silver, copper).

It always puzzled me how they never figured out metal smelting. Red ochre is a good source of iron and it would have ended up in a fire at some point. It seems to me that at least one of the more settled civilizations would have stumbled on it by just by chance, in much the same way as it happened in the old world. Pretty sure at least a few of them made fired pottery.

/going to start building a bloomery furnace today in my backyard.

Not a hot enough fire is the problem - the development of serious business ovens had to come along to kickstart the idea of proper forges and smelting.  Iron smelting takes like 3k+F temps, not something that's gonna happen in a fire or a basic bread baking clay oven


They never figured out air fed charcoal for a kiln? A big enough charcoal fire that lasts long enough, say an all night ritual, will eventually suck up enough air to get 2,600ish degrees and then all you need is enough red ochre to get a noticeable bloom. I can get not stumbling on bronze, since tin and copper are fairly rare. Iron ore is one of the most plentiful things on earth though.
 
2022-05-29 11:07:32 AM  

Mail Order American Husband: Some Junkie Cosmonaut: Mail Order American Husband: madgonad: Also, the American civilizations were all stone age. Not iron age, not even bronze age, they were stone age. They could work in soft metals (gold, silver, copper).

It always puzzled me how they never figured out metal smelting. Red ochre is a good source of iron and it would have ended up in a fire at some point. It seems to me that at least one of the more settled civilizations would have stumbled on it by just by chance, in much the same way as it happened in the old world. Pretty sure at least a few of them made fired pottery.

/going to start building a bloomery furnace today in my backyard.

Not a hot enough fire is the problem - the development of serious business ovens had to come along to kickstart the idea of proper forges and smelting.  Iron smelting takes like 3k+F temps, not something that's gonna happen in a fire or a basic bread baking clay oven

They never figured out air fed charcoal for a kiln? A big enough charcoal fire that lasts long enough, say an all night ritual, will eventually suck up enough air to get 2,600ish degrees and then all you need is enough red ochre to get a noticeable bloom. I can get not stumbling on bronze, since tin and copper are fairly rare. Iron ore is one of the most plentiful things on earth though.


2600 isn't going to cut it as a rule - you want 3200 or so.  Sure not a giant difference, but with smelting it kinda matters.  Meteoric iron - if you could find it - was malleable as hell and could be cold hammered out as is usually, but that was rare to say the least and a bastard to work with with stone and wood tools.  Could be done, but a lot of damn work.  Why we have legends about that kind of thing - some folks that found a source of it did have some early iron tools and blades.  Crude to say the least, but they had them - and in comparison with bone, stone, or even copper they were vastly durable stuff.  Better edge on stone, but that fragments when someone sneezes too hard.  Copper is... well - copper.  If someone had a source of cold-workable iron they could produce shiat that no one else could rival, 'cause smelting iron just wasn't possible with what they'd invented at the time to do it in.  Close, but close doesn't count smelting ore
 
2022-05-29 11:50:40 AM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: Mail Order American Husband: Some Junkie Cosmonaut: Mail Order American Husband: madgonad: Also, the American civilizations were all stone age. Not iron age, not even bronze age, they were stone age. They could work in soft metals (gold, silver, copper).

It always puzzled me how they never figured out metal smelting. Red ochre is a good source of iron and it would have ended up in a fire at some point. It seems to me that at least one of the more settled civilizations would have stumbled on it by just by chance, in much the same way as it happened in the old world. Pretty sure at least a few of them made fired pottery.

/going to start building a bloomery furnace today in my backyard.

Not a hot enough fire is the problem - the development of serious business ovens had to come along to kickstart the idea of proper forges and smelting.  Iron smelting takes like 3k+F temps, not something that's gonna happen in a fire or a basic bread baking clay oven

They never figured out air fed charcoal for a kiln? A big enough charcoal fire that lasts long enough, say an all night ritual, will eventually suck up enough air to get 2,600ish degrees and then all you need is enough red ochre to get a noticeable bloom. I can get not stumbling on bronze, since tin and copper are fairly rare. Iron ore is one of the most plentiful things on earth though.

2600 isn't going to cut it as a rule - you want 3200 or so.  Sure not a giant difference, but with smelting it kinda matters.  Meteoric iron - if you could find it - was malleable as hell and could be cold hammered out as is usually, but that was rare to say the least and a bastard to work with with stone and wood tools.  Could be done, but a lot of damn work.  Why we have legends about that kind of thing - some folks that found a source of it did have some early iron tools and blades.  Crude to say the least, but they had them - and in comparison with bone, stone, or even copper they were vastly durable stuff.  Better edge on stone, but that fragments when someone sneezes too hard.  Copper is... well - copper.  If someone had a source of cold-workable iron they could produce shiat that no one else could rival, 'cause smelting iron just wasn't possible with what they'd invented at the time to do it in.  Close, but close doesn't count smelting ore


Apparently there was a very large iron meteorite in Greenland.
 
2022-05-29 12:19:34 PM  

Nurglitch: Some Junkie Cosmonaut: Mail Order American Husband: Some Junkie Cosmonaut: Mail Order American Husband: madgonad: Also, the American civilizations were all stone age. Not iron age, not even bronze age, they were stone age. They could work in soft metals (gold, silver, copper).

It always puzzled me how they never figured out metal smelting. Red ochre is a good source of iron and it would have ended up in a fire at some point. It seems to me that at least one of the more settled civilizations would have stumbled on it by just by chance, in much the same way as it happened in the old world. Pretty sure at least a few of them made fired pottery.

/going to start building a bloomery furnace today in my backyard.

Not a hot enough fire is the problem - the development of serious business ovens had to come along to kickstart the idea of proper forges and smelting.  Iron smelting takes like 3k+F temps, not something that's gonna happen in a fire or a basic bread baking clay oven

They never figured out air fed charcoal for a kiln? A big enough charcoal fire that lasts long enough, say an all night ritual, will eventually suck up enough air to get 2,600ish degrees and then all you need is enough red ochre to get a noticeable bloom. I can get not stumbling on bronze, since tin and copper are fairly rare. Iron ore is one of the most plentiful things on earth though.

2600 isn't going to cut it as a rule - you want 3200 or so.  Sure not a giant difference, but with smelting it kinda matters.  Meteoric iron - if you could find it - was malleable as hell and could be cold hammered out as is usually, but that was rare to say the least and a bastard to work with with stone and wood tools.  Could be done, but a lot of damn work.  Why we have legends about that kind of thing - some folks that found a source of it did have some early iron tools and blades.  Crude to say the least, but they had them - and in comparison with bone, stone, or even copper they were vastly durable stuff.  ...


It was more common than often portrayed - Tutankhamen had meteoric iron stuff in with the grave goods - it was just rare and expensive as hell if you could even get your paws on any - which usually required lots to offer, being near a source, or being able to take it from those that had it.  The last point was especially tricky, as anyone with a good supply of it was making at least some weapons - 'cause they weren't that stupid
 
2022-05-29 5:32:52 PM  
To be fair, have you priced art supplies lately?
 
2022-05-30 10:27:27 AM  
Always funny to see today's convenience-fed, basement dwellers saying stuff like, "They couldn't figure out..."! Like if we dropped them off in pre-contact America, they would be able to build New York. You are the product of thousands of generations of your ancestors and their work. Have some appreciation for those generations that contributed to your knowledge.

And anyone who wonders why the Europeans had the small pox and First Nations in the Americas did not, can check out, "Guns, Germs and Steel," by Jared Diamond.

And just a reminder, "civilization" was invented in only about 5 places on the planet, none of which were in Europe. Winter is a biatch, no matter where you are on the planet.
 
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