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(Phys Org2)   Ancient Neanderthals were tolerant of climate change. Modern Neanderthals are as well   (phys.org) divider line
    More: Interesting, Germany, Climate, Max Planck Society, Neanderthal, Pleistocene, Archaeological excavations, temperate environmental conditions, Stone tools  
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1960 clicks; posted to Main » and STEM » on 23 May 2022 at 10:19 PM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-05-23 10:20:48 PM  
Modern Neanderthals deny climate change exists.
 
2022-05-23 10:22:55 PM  
I must be drunk
 
2022-05-23 10:24:04 PM  
Well, of course they were.  Ability to tolerate a wide variety of environmental conditions is one of the hallmarks of humanity as a whole.  Outside of tardigrades, our family branch is probably the group most capable of surviving in diverse habitats out of everything else on the planet, thanks to both technology and an advanced natural heat dissipation system.
 
2022-05-23 10:24:51 PM  
I must be drunk the first paragraph, i swear every word is 10 or more letters
 
2022-05-23 10:32:36 PM  
It's insulting to Neanderthals to compare them to modern low-intelligence no-curiosity Fox News viewers. Neandertals had culture and art.
 
2022-05-23 10:34:08 PM  

get real: I must be drunk the first paragraph, i swear every word is 10 or more letters


A multidisciplinary research team from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, the Friedrich Alexander University Erlangen-Nuremberg, the Leuphana University Lüneburg, the Leibniz Institute for Applied Geophysics and other partner institutions investigated whether Neanderthals were well adapted to life in the cold or preferred more temperate environmental conditions. Based on investigations in Lichtenberg in the Wendland region (Lower Saxony, Germany), the researchers showed that during the last Ice Age, Neanderthals visited their northernmost settlement areas even during cold phases-albeit preferably in the summer months.


Translates to

"German boffins say....'Way back when, some of these guys went up north, even in winter..'"
 
2022-05-23 10:35:00 PM  
Neanderthals didn't pop up until about 430 thousand yrs ago.

Guess what extremes they ever experienced. Go on.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-23 10:37:18 PM  
We're supposed to be entering a long-term cooling period, yet the temps have gone through the roof in a mere dozen decades.

hUmAnS hAvE liVeD tHrOuGh tHiS bEfOrE
 
2022-05-23 10:39:45 PM  
I guess I am as set as anyone. My DNA shows about 2.6% Neanderthal which is on the high end for modern humans and no, I do not watch Faux News, vote red, drive a truck in a convoy or anything else attributed to knuckle draggers. This probably explains why I love living in the Great lakes area and am comfortable in both hot and cold weather.
 
2022-05-23 10:40:34 PM  

i_hate_your_god: Modern Neanderthals deny climate change exists.


What modern Neanderthal looks like
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-23 10:41:18 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-23 10:46:08 PM  
i.imgflip.comView Full Size
 
2022-05-23 10:51:59 PM  

LrdPhoenix: Well, of course they were.  Ability to tolerate a wide variety of environmental conditions is one of the hallmarks of humanity as a whole.  Outside of tardigrades, our family branch is probably the group most capable of surviving in diverse habitats out of everything else on the planet, thanks to both technology and an advanced natural heat dissipation system.


Being warm blooded helps too
 
2022-05-23 10:58:22 PM  

OhioUGrad: i_hate_your_god: Modern Neanderthals deny climate change exists.

What modern Neanderthal looks like
[Fark user image image 300x168]


mcbroom.bizView Full Size

Not cool bro
 
2022-05-23 10:59:05 PM  
Yes: The thing that has kept genus Homo alive for so long is its adaptability in the face of change.

It gets cold: we invent clothing, controlled fire, houses, electric heaters.
It gets hot: we move north, take off our clothes, invent a/c and ice makers
There's less food: We invent agriculture, domesticate animals, devise new ways to store food
There's less water: we develop solar stills, new ways to trap and save water, desalinization plants

A lot of other animals have gone extinct because it gets cold/hot/dry/wet and they can't evolve past that.

Nature doesn't care. Nature says: Here are the conditions organisms have to live in. They have to survive in it. It doesn't matter much to nature what caused the conditions, whether it was a tidal wave caused by a huge underwater earthquake, or an entirely man-made nuclear explosion. Here are the conditions, organisms. Live in it, raise your offspring, or die.

Humans like to think we've short-circuited that equation, but we really haven't. We've just found a way to add more numbers. Some day, we'll run out of ways to increase the carrying capacity of the land or the amount of potable water, and then we'll still be faced with the same two-factor equation as any other organism: here are the conditions. Live in them, raise your offspring, or die.

But screeching either about how it didn't used to be this way OR how nobody cares except you because you're somehow special and the rest of us are "deniers" is bullshiat. The climate is going to change and we're going to have to live in it regardless.
 
2022-05-23 11:03:10 PM  

OhioUGrad: i_hate_your_god: Modern Neanderthals deny climate change exists.

What modern Neanderthal looks like
[Fark user image 300x168]


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-23 11:04:48 PM  

i_hate_your_god: Modern Neanderthals deny climate change exists.


Isn't it up in the air whether or not neanderthals were actually dumber than humans? We ourbred them, but it doesn't mean we were smarter.
 
2022-05-23 11:05:58 PM  
Man that effort sure employed a lot of people.
 
2022-05-23 11:06:26 PM  
No one is saying that humans as a species will go extinct (no one that needs to be taken seriously, anyway).

But a relatively peaceful global interconnected society that can sustain 8 billion people?

Now that's a very different question.
 
2022-05-23 11:06:51 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: i_hate_your_god: Modern Neanderthals deny climate change exists.

Isn't it up in the air whether or not neanderthals were actually dumber than humans? We ourbred them, but it doesn't mean we were smarter.


And interbred with them.
 
2022-05-23 11:07:37 PM  

ansius: No one is saying that humans as a species will go extinct (no one that needs to be taken seriously, anyway).

But a relatively peaceful global interconnected society that can sustain 8 billion people?

Now that's a very different question.


We're due for a population rebalance anyway.
 
2022-05-23 11:15:14 PM  
Neanderthals of the North reveal tolerance of humans to changing environmental conditions

Neanderthals aren't humans you nitwit.
 
2022-05-23 11:16:32 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: i_hate_your_god: Modern Neanderthals deny climate change exists.

Isn't it up in the air whether or not neanderthals were actually dumber than humans? We ourbred them, but it doesn't mean we were smarter.


Most archaeologists believe now that that is the wrong question to ask. Neandertals had a completely different brain structure than modern humans. For instance, casts of the brain case show that they had Broca's area, meaning they would have had a capacity for language, but not Wernicke's area, meaning they probably did not have spoken language. They had a larger cranial capacity, but smaller frontal lobes and a smaller prefrontal cortex, which is where higher order thinking processes (like long-term planning and cause/effect thinking) take place.

On the other hand, they were able to survive in a harsher environment for longer than any modern human species, had a completely adequate tool set, clearly had fully human emotions and social constructs, and were quite able to handle anything the Paleolithic world threw at them. So trying to decide which species was "smarter" isn't the right question to ask. It's like asking which was "smarter," aboriginal Australians or Inuit.
 
2022-05-23 11:22:35 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: i_hate_your_god: Modern Neanderthals deny climate change exists.

Isn't it up in the air whether or not neanderthals were actually dumber than humans? We ourbred them, but it doesn't mean we were smarter.


Do Neanderthals use spell check?
 
2022-05-23 11:24:05 PM  

ansius: No one is saying that humans as a species will go extinct (no one that needs to be taken seriously, anyway).


We will
 
2022-05-23 11:38:30 PM  
modern Neanderthals are the ones who constantly turn the thermostat down...
 
2022-05-24 12:02:43 AM  

chitownmike: ansius: No one is saying that humans as a species will go extinct (no one that needs to be taken seriously, anyway).

We will


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-24 12:16:56 AM  

get real: I must be drunk the first paragraph, i swear every word is 10 or more letters


Focus, friend. Sound out the letters and Google the words.

And pour one for me
 
2022-05-24 12:20:05 AM  

Russ1642: Neanderthals of the North reveal tolerance of humans to changing environmental conditions

Neanderthals aren't humans you nitwit.


Uh, yeah they are.
 
2022-05-24 12:21:35 AM  

Madman drummers bummers: It's insulting to Neanderthals to compare them to modern low-intelligence no-curiosity Fox News viewers. Neandertals had culture and art.


Thank you for speaking up!  Might I interest you in joining the Neandertal Defense League?
 
2022-05-24 12:24:44 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Yes: The thing that has kept genus Homo alive for so long is its adaptability in the face of change.

It gets cold: we invent clothing, controlled fire, houses, electric heaters.
It gets hot: we move north, take off our clothes, invent a/c and ice makers
There's less food: We invent agriculture, domesticate animals, devise new ways to store food
There's less water: we develop solar stills, new ways to trap and save water, desalinization plants

A lot of other animals have gone extinct because it gets cold/hot/dry/wet and they can't evolve past that.

Nature doesn't care. Nature says: Here are the conditions organisms have to live in. They have to survive in it. It doesn't matter much to nature what caused the conditions, whether it was a tidal wave caused by a huge underwater earthquake, or an entirely man-made nuclear explosion. Here are the conditions, organisms. Live in it, raise your offspring, or die.

Humans like to think we've short-circuited that equation, but we really haven't. We've just found a way to add more numbers. Some day, we'll run out of ways to increase the carrying capacity of the land or the amount of potable water, and then we'll still be faced with the same two-factor equation as any other organism: here are the conditions. Live in them, raise your offspring, or die.

But screeching either about how it didn't used to be this way OR how nobody cares except you because you're somehow special and the rest of us are "deniers" is bullshiat. The climate is going to change and we're going to have to live in it regardless.


Scene: I'm an ancient human, a Neanderthal if you will. There's a region north of where I am where some folks say there is plenty of game.

I'm going. Some friends and their wives and kids are coming too, we're gonna set up housekeeping if we can, and settle in.

21th century politics? What the hell are you talking about?
 
2022-05-24 12:27:12 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Neanderthals of the North reveal tolerance of humans to changing environmental conditions

Neanderthals aren't humans you nitwit.

Uh, yeah they are.


Neanderthals are a different species. Human only covers one species: homo sapiens.
 
2022-05-24 12:32:19 AM  

Russ1642: Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Neanderthals of the North reveal tolerance of humans to changing environmental conditions

Neanderthals aren't humans you nitwit.

Uh, yeah they are.

Neanderthals are a different species. Human only covers one species: homo sapiens.


Jury's still out on that. If they weren't a subspecies H. sapiens neandertalensis, we couldn't have interbred successfully.
 
2022-05-24 12:47:34 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Neanderthals of the North reveal tolerance of humans to changing environmental conditions

Neanderthals aren't humans you nitwit.

Uh, yeah they are.

Neanderthals are a different species. Human only covers one species: homo sapiens.

Jury's still out on that. If they weren't a subspecies H. sapiens neandertalensis, we couldn't have interbred successfully.


Especially in the context of discussing neanderthals, human means homo sapiens only. Human means not neaderthal.
 
2022-05-24 12:52:00 AM  
https://daily.jstor.org/the-surprising-frequency-of-interspecies-mating/

just posting that for no particular reason, in response to no one in particular
 
2022-05-24 1:42:19 AM  
I'm finding a cave. Bye
 
2022-05-24 2:01:15 AM  

New Rising Sun: OhioUGrad: i_hate_your_god: Modern Neanderthals deny climate change exists.

What modern Neanderthal looks like
[Fark user image 300x168]

[Fark user image image 236x353]


Forgive me, Buk
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-24 7:27:21 AM  

Russ1642: Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Neanderthals of the North reveal tolerance of humans to changing environmental conditions

Neanderthals aren't humans you nitwit.

Uh, yeah they are.

Neanderthals are a different species. Human only covers one species: homo sapiens.


Fark user imageView Full Size

Actually
 
2022-05-24 7:45:38 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Neanderthals of the North reveal tolerance of humans to changing environmental conditions

Neanderthals aren't humans you nitwit.

Uh, yeah they are.

Neanderthals are a different species. Human only covers one species: homo sapiens.

Jury's still out on that. If they weren't a subspecies H. sapiens neandertalensis, we couldn't have interbred successfully.


Horses and donkeys...
:P
 
2022-05-24 8:20:06 AM  

LiberalConservative: Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Neanderthals of the North reveal tolerance of humans to changing environmental conditions

Neanderthals aren't humans you nitwit.

Uh, yeah they are.

Neanderthals are a different species. Human only covers one species: homo sapiens.

Jury's still out on that. If they weren't a subspecies H. sapiens neandertalensis, we couldn't have interbred successfully.

Horses and donkeys...
:P


Yeahbut mules are sterile (generally, except for that one case) whereas Neanderthal hybrids were able to pass genes down so must have been fertile.
 
2022-05-24 8:35:00 AM  

KarmicDisaster: LiberalConservative: Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Neanderthals of the North reveal tolerance of humans to changing environmental conditions

Neanderthals aren't humans you nitwit.

Uh, yeah they are.

Neanderthals are a different species. Human only covers one species: homo sapiens.

Jury's still out on that. If they weren't a subspecies H. sapiens neandertalensis, we couldn't have interbred successfully.

Horses and donkeys...
:P

Yeahbut mules are sterile (generally, except for that one case) whereas Neanderthal hybrids were able to pass genes down so must have been fertile.


Yes the obvious answer. Was expecting that. But can't edit a post!
Probably should of gone with something like Wolphin, which was found to be fertile.
Oddly in my work have come across many hybrid plants that were fertile. Also seen some apparent (I'm skeptical) hybrids of different plant genera, which probably shouldn't be happening under classical definition of what a species is. But no one seems to know if those cross-genera plant hybrids are fertile or not; found in wild and not from breeding experiments.
 
2022-05-24 9:51:02 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Yes: The thing that has kept genus Homo alive for so long is its adaptability in the face of change.

It gets cold: we invent clothing, controlled fire, houses, electric heaters.
It gets hot: we move north, take off our clothes, invent a/c and ice makers
There's less food: We invent agriculture, domesticate animals, devise new ways to store food
There's less water: we develop solar stills, new ways to trap and save water, desalinization plants

A lot of other animals have gone extinct because it gets cold/hot/dry/wet and they can't evolve past that.

Nature doesn't care. Nature says: Here are the conditions organisms have to live in. They have to survive in it. It doesn't matter much to nature what caused the conditions, whether it was a tidal wave caused by a huge underwater earthquake, or an entirely man-made nuclear explosion. Here are the conditions, organisms. Live in it, raise your offspring, or die.

Humans like to think we've short-circuited that equation, but we really haven't. We've just found a way to add more numbers. Some day, we'll run out of ways to increase the carrying capacity of the land or the amount of potable water, and then we'll still be faced with the same two-factor equation as any other organism: here are the conditions. Live in them, raise your offspring, or die.

But screeching either about how it didn't used to be this way OR how nobody cares except you because you're somehow special and the rest of us are "deniers" is bullshiat. The climate is going to change and we're going to have to live in it regardless.


This. Very much this. Anyone with a brain can see that the climate is changing. Anyone with a brain also knows that this has happened many times over the course of the history of this planet. We, as human beings, are of little consequence to it. Thinking that we are the cause of and/or have the cure for climate change is the epitome of human arrogance.
 
2022-05-24 10:00:35 AM  

thealgorerhythm: Russ1642: Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Neanderthals of the North reveal tolerance of humans to changing environmental conditions

Neanderthals aren't humans you nitwit.

Uh, yeah they are.

Neanderthals are a different species. Human only covers one species: homo sapiens.

[Fark user image image 425x390]
Actually


Oh crap, we're using shiatty wikipedia articles as references now. At least link to the one most likely to have correct information. The entire point of the classifications within the genus is to distinguish humans from similar non-human species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo
 
2022-05-24 10:13:56 AM  

Gyrfalcon: God-is-a-Taco: i_hate_your_god: Modern Neanderthals deny climate change exists.

Isn't it up in the air whether or not neanderthals were actually dumber than humans? We ourbred them, but it doesn't mean we were smarter.

Most archaeologists believe now that that is the wrong question to ask. Neandertals had a completely different brain structure than modern humans. For instance, casts of the brain case show that they had Broca's area, meaning they would have had a capacity for language, but not Wernicke's area, meaning they probably did not have spoken language. They had a larger cranial capacity, but smaller frontal lobes and a smaller prefrontal cortex, which is where higher order thinking processes (like long-term planning and cause/effect thinking) take place.

On the other hand, they were able to survive in a harsher environment for longer than any modern human species, had a completely adequate tool set, clearly had fully human emotions and social constructs, and were quite able to handle anything the Paleolithic world threw at them. So trying to decide which species was "smarter" isn't the right question to ask. It's like asking which was "smarter," aboriginal Australians or Inuit.


I thought Wernicke's area was defined in Neanderthals.

My impression is that most experts do not seem to rule out language in Neanderthals, and what we've found anatomically is consistent with spoken language.  Same with the Denisovans (which is limited to DNA studies at this point) and perhaps our common ancestor Homo heidelbergensi.

OTOH, obviously the prerequisites of speech had to evolve sometime, and perhaps Neanderthals, Denisovans, and Heidelbergensi all had the prerequisites, but did not have modern speech as we know it.

I'll note that Homo sapiens does seem to be rather boring for at least 100,000 years.  We find that Homo sapiens didn't successfully leave Africa for about that time frame - we evolved about 250,000 years ago, give or take, showed up in Europe for a bit, then our range shrunk back to Africa, before expanding to Eurasia about 70,000 years ago.  We don't know why, especially when earlier hominids, such as Homo erectus and Homo heidelbergensi, were able to colonize Eurasia.  Perhaps we faced too much competition from our cousins and needed to successfully evolve social structures to compete.  Or perhaps, we are giving ourselves too much credit and the peopling of Eurasia was due to a population crash in our cousins and us taking advantage of such a situation.

But one could make the argument that improved language capability evolved during that time, giving us the edge, and nothing could disprove that hypothesis so far.

There's other hypothesis though - the earliest microlithic technology found so far seems to date to 70,000 years ago (microlithic = stuff like spear points), and by that time, we seemed to be (arguably) what's called behaviorally modern humans (making beads, artworks, using projectile weapons, and covering ourselves in ochre paint).  The reason why homo sapiens is around and our cousins are not may be something very boring like gaining a slight technological edge that allowed us to support a slightly increased population size and out-compete our nearest relatives over tens of thousands of years.  That's a pretty boring theory, but would also be consistent with what we found.

(Note cool things like domestic plants and animals, metalworking, cities, etc, are very recent in human history - happening in only the final 10% of the timespan homo sapiens existed.  So that cannot explain why humans were successful.)
 
2022-05-24 10:35:02 AM  
"So that cannot explain why humans were successful."*

*Some humans are more successful than other and
 
2022-05-24 10:36:09 AM  
"Some humans are more successful than other humans"

/liek FARKers
 
2022-05-24 10:51:40 AM  
Lotta neanderphobia in this thread. Unless you are 100% sub-Saharan in origin, you too carry their DNA.
 
2022-05-24 3:53:03 PM  

Russ1642: thealgorerhythm: Russ1642: Gyrfalcon: Russ1642: Neanderthals of the North reveal tolerance of humans to changing environmental conditions

Neanderthals aren't humans you nitwit.

Uh, yeah they are.

Neanderthals are a different species. Human only covers one species: homo sapiens.

[Fark user image image 425x390]
Actually

Oh crap, we're using shiatty wikipedia articles as references now. At least link to the one most likely to have correct information. The entire point of the classifications within the genus is to distinguish humans from similar non-human species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo


And yet, that page says "Homo erectus appeared about 2 million years ago and, in several early migrations, spread throughout Africa (where it is dubbed Homo ergaster) and Eurasia. It was likely the first human species to live in a hunter-gatherer society and to control fire."  In the second paragraph at that.

Everything the genus Homo covers is considered human.  That's what "Homo" means.  We are merely modern humans.
 
2022-05-24 7:23:44 PM  
Neanderthals at least had a natural environment with animals to hunt and plants to forage.
We won't.
 
2022-05-24 7:27:48 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Yes: The thing that has kept genus Homo alive for so long is its adaptability in the face of change.

It gets cold: we invent clothing, controlled fire, houses, electric heaters.
It gets hot: we move north, take off our clothes, invent a/c and ice makers
There's less food: We invent agriculture, domesticate animals, devise new ways to store food
There's less water: we develop solar stills, new ways to trap and save water, desalinization plants

A lot of other animals have gone extinct because it gets cold/hot/dry/wet and they can't evolve past that.

Nature doesn't care. Nature says: Here are the conditions organisms have to live in. They have to survive in it. It doesn't matter much to nature what caused the conditions, whether it was a tidal wave caused by a huge underwater earthquake, or an entirely man-made nuclear explosion. Here are the conditions, organisms. Live in it, raise your offspring, or die.

Humans like to think we've short-circuited that equation, but we really haven't. We've just found a way to add more numbers. Some day, we'll run out of ways to increase the carrying capacity of the land or the amount of potable water, and then we'll still be faced with the same two-factor equation as any other organism: here are the conditions. Live in them, raise your offspring, or die.

But screeching either about how it didn't used to be this way OR how nobody cares except you because you're somehow special and the rest of us are "deniers" is bullshiat. The climate is going to change and we're going to have to live in it regardless.


Oh, nature 'cares.' Plants and animals are dying, and ecosystems are unraveling at a cataclysmic rate, much faster than species can adapt. It's just that the average domesticated terrarium ape we call a 'modern human' doesn't interact with the outdoors enough to witness the suffering.
 
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