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(Deseret News)   Good: you're converting your coal-fired plant to hydrogen to save the planet. Bad: the fuel comes from water in a state experiencing severe drought. Who needs drinking water trifecta in play   (deseret.com) divider line
    More: Awkward, Renewable energy, Wind power, Nuclear power, Natural gas, Energy development, Advanced Clean Energy Storage project, World energy resources and consumption, Electrolysis  
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1746 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 May 2022 at 3:31 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-05-19 3:07:04 PM  
Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.
 
2022-05-19 3:08:06 PM  
When you burn hydrogen you get pure water.

Don't they teach chemistry in public schools anymore?

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-19 3:22:54 PM  

syrynxx: Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.


The article is actually pretty good.

They are using surplus capacity of green tech (solar, wind) to release for electrolysis and using  local salt caves to store the hydrogen. It's a clever "battery" behind green generation.


The scale alone is staggering and makes the article worth the read.
 
2022-05-19 3:28:37 PM  

syrynxx: Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.


The article explains that it's temporary energy storage for wind and solar generation. Expect to see more of it in the future. Another step will be using the hydrogen as a chemical feedstock to produce ammonia fertilizer etc. instead of only for power generation. It's also an option for a future aviation fuel.
 
2022-05-19 3:37:17 PM  
We need nuclear. Like now.
 
2022-05-19 3:37:21 PM  
We should be out there mining Jupiter, Expanse style.
 
2022-05-19 3:38:36 PM  

SpectroBoy: When you burn hydrogen you get pure water.

Don't they teach chemistry in public schools anymore?

[Fark user image 622x302]


If I saw that diagram in high school I would not have thought of those two on the right as molecules.
 
2022-05-19 3:39:34 PM  
Hydrogen is an energy storage medium.

A highly explody energy storage medium.

One you can't just pour into a tank. It requires pressurized vessels and specialized equipment to transfer.

However what is really going on hasn't been hidden at all

"Sen. Mitt Romney, R-Utah, said the federal funding is a huge deal on multiple fronts. "
 
2022-05-19 3:39:34 PM  
A slick solution to the intermittent nature of wind and solar. There is no good way to store bulk electricity, but storing hydrogen is a much simpler problem. And extra points for generating it in a renewable way, instead of generating it from natural gas.
 
2022-05-19 3:41:46 PM  
JACKPOT
 
2022-05-19 3:45:32 PM  
Oh, and there are two main source for the production of hydrogen.

Steam-Methane Reformulation and Electrolysis

The first takes natural gas, water, and heat and makes H2, CO, and a little CO2. See anything we don't want in there?
The second uses a ton of electricity as it passes voltage through water to produce both hydrogen and oxygen gas (which are then compressed into liquid form).
 
2022-05-19 3:50:03 PM  
Screw that. I can generate even more energy on Fark using eletrollisys.   Stupid greenies think Big Oil has been suppressing this tech because we already have inefficient solar cells charging lead acid batteries through inefficient switching circuits. But PROFITS! So agreeing with this techology forces you to admit to a lifetime of spouting bad concepts.

Now attach the leads to your temples WOW voltage spike.
 
2022-05-19 3:50:21 PM  

SpectroBoy: When you burn hydrogen you get pure water.

Don't they teach chemistry in public schools anymore?



When you fuse hydrogen you get pure helium and a LOT of energy.

Don't they teach physics in public schools anymore?
 
2022-05-19 3:53:06 PM  
In spite of its name, H2, it only runs on dinosaur juice.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-19 3:55:57 PM  

Amelia Earhart's Black Box: Screw that. I can generate even more energy on Fark using eletrollisys.   Stupid greenies think Big Oil has been suppressing this tech because we already have inefficient solar cells charging lead acid batteries through inefficient switching circuits. But PROFITS! So agreeing with this techology forces you to admit to a lifetime of spouting bad concepts.

Now attach the leads to your temples WOW voltage spike.


Strange Brew - electroshock therapy
Youtube EsYqPRIMzfM
 
2022-05-19 4:01:45 PM  
Difficulty = storing hydrogen. Someday a stray spark is going to exist, and salt dome or not, they're gonna see that in the next state over lol. I'm all for it, but if it goes all 4th of July one day, well there better be video please haha.
 
2022-05-19 4:09:38 PM  

fullyautomatic: Difficulty = storing hydrogen. Someday a stray spark is going to exist, and salt dome or not, they're gonna see that in the next state over lol. I'm all for it, but if it goes all 4th of July one day, well there better be video please haha.


They will probably purge the storage caves with some other inert non-flammable gas first, like nitrogen. Once the O2 is gone it's safe to pump in hydrogen.
 
2022-05-19 4:13:49 PM  

syrynxx: Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.


Elon Musk has explained it and called it stupid, but not as concisely. Thank you.
 
2022-05-19 4:34:23 PM  
Fun fact, when hydrogen burns the flame is invisible.
 
2022-05-19 4:39:57 PM  

Kalyco Jack: We need nuclear. Like now.


Do you have an extra $9.8 billion $25 billion $??? billion lying around?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nukegate_scandal
 
2022-05-19 4:46:03 PM  

Ivo Shandor: syrynxx: Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.

The article explains that it's temporary energy storage for wind and solar generation. Expect to see more of it in the future. Another step will be using the hydrogen as a chemical feedstock to produce ammonia fertilizer etc. instead of only for power generation. It's also an option for a future aviation fuel.


Honestly, I would buy a hydrogen ICE engine or fuel cell based car before an electric too. I wonder they they aren't more popular.
 
2022-05-19 4:49:27 PM  
The current water demand at the plants' coal-fired generating units is 12,500 acre-feet per year, although it has rights to 45,000 acre-feet of water annually.

If the drought continues they'll be cutting that amount by up 70%.
 
2022-05-19 4:50:48 PM  

Ivo Shandor: syrynxx: Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.

The article explains that it's temporary energy storage for wind and solar generation. Expect to see more of it in the future. Another step will be using the hydrogen as a chemical feedstock to produce ammonia fertilizer etc. instead of only for power generation. It's also an option for a future aviation fuel.


Ammonia can be used directly as fuel as well. It has a much higher energy density than compressed hydrogen and even of liquid hydrogen, without having to worry about such extreme cryogenic temperatures. But pure ammonia is not something you want any risk of release in residential areas, so I doubt it would ever be used as a replacement for transportation fuel. I've been seeing papers for years talking about using green energy to run Haber-Bosch plants to generate ammonia from cracked water instead of cracking water and storing the hydrogen. Currently most ammonia is actually generated from hydrogen produced from natural gas.
 
2022-05-19 4:52:50 PM  

alex10294: Ivo Shandor: syrynxx: Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.

The article explains that it's temporary energy storage for wind and solar generation. Expect to see more of it in the future. Another step will be using the hydrogen as a chemical feedstock to produce ammonia fertilizer etc. instead of only for power generation. It's also an option for a future aviation fuel.

Honestly, I would buy a hydrogen ICE engine or fuel cell based car before an electric too. I wonder they they aren't more popular.


Batteries are better for regular cars. Hydrogen is difficult to handle so it's better suited to commercial fleets which can manage the necessary infrastructure for their vehicles. For airplanes, it's particularly attractive because cryogenic liquid hydrogen has a very good energy density by mass, and it's relatively easy to add volume to an airplane for a larger fuel tank.
 
2022-05-19 4:53:27 PM  
Regarding the headlines crud about using water in a desert...

They are replacing coal fired plants.Those plant use 12500 acre feet of water per year.  The new plant will use 2500 acre feet of water per year.  So it will net increase the water available.  Also once the hydrogen is burned water is a by product.

The power use to make the hydrogen is excess wind and solar so this is basically a huge battery..... on a scale that is stunning.
 
2022-05-19 4:53:42 PM  

SpectroBoy: syrynxx: Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.

The article is actually pretty good.

They are using surplus capacity of green tech (solar, wind) to release for electrolysis and using  local salt caves to store the hydrogen. It's a clever "battery" behind green generation.


The scale alone is staggering and makes the article worth the read.


It's all fun and well until a hydrogen leak goes unnoticed during a wildfire.

/only joking
 
2022-05-19 4:54:18 PM  

SpectroBoy: When you burn hydrogen you get pure water.

Don't they teach chemistry in public schools anymore?

[Fark user image image 622x302]


If that's true, then why didn't the Hindenburg extinguish its own fire with all that water it created?  Exactly!  There was no water.  Study it out, people!
 
2022-05-19 4:55:08 PM  

alex10294: Ivo Shandor: syrynxx: Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.

The article explains that it's temporary energy storage for wind and solar generation. Expect to see more of it in the future. Another step will be using the hydrogen as a chemical feedstock to produce ammonia fertilizer etc. instead of only for power generation. It's also an option for a future aviation fuel.

Honestly, I would buy a hydrogen ICE engine or fuel cell based car before an electric too. I wonder they they aren't more popular.


Hydrogen cars aren't very powerful, the cost to remove hydrogen, it produces as much pollution to as it would remove in manufacturing when removed from other sources like coal and natural gas, so zero sum and it's damned expensive when you fill your car up. Roughly about 16$ a gallon when compared to gas.
 
2022-05-19 5:09:12 PM  
They have another power plant in the area that I can't figure out. The farking thing looks like Vegas, but isn't very big. I can't figure out if the glow is from lights or somehow a byproduct of the power generation, it's just far enough from the freeway that you can't tell for sure.
 
2022-05-19 5:15:13 PM  

Mikey1969: They have another power plant in the area that I can't figure out. The farking thing looks like Vegas, but isn't very big. I can't figure out if the glow is from lights or somehow a byproduct of the power generation, it's just far enough from the freeway that you can't tell for sure.


Glowing in the daytime or at night? If the former, maybe one of the solar plants which concentrate sunlight onto a central tower.
 
2022-05-19 5:35:30 PM  

Geotpf: Kalyco Jack: We need nuclear. Like now.

Do you have an extra $9.8 billion $25 billion $??? billion lying around?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nukegate_scandal


As far as I can tell the "WE need Nuke" comment in every thread that is somehow energy related is just trolling bait at this point.
They know that nuke isn't sustainable, either environmentally or economically.
They just drop it and run, like a dog shiatting on your carpet when he knows he's not supposed to.
 
2022-05-19 5:47:31 PM  
Looks like the plan is to take in water and use the excess California electricity to produce hydrogen that will be stored in a salt cave.  Will they be taking water from aquifers, rivers, or?

Would it be better to do the following:
1) use the excess California electricity that they mentioned and desalinate the ocean water, creating fresh water
2) use the excess electricity to separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen using electrolysis
3) Pump the gaseous hydrogen to the salt mines to be stored when needed

From there, the hydrogen burning plant will help raise the local humidity in Utah?
 
2022-05-19 5:51:15 PM  

SpectroBoy: The article is actually pretty good.

They are using surplus capacity of green tech (solar, wind) to release for electrolysis and using local salt caves to store the hydrogen. It's a clever "battery" behind green generation.


The scale alone is staggering and makes the article worth the read.


How efficient is the "round trip" from electricity to stored hydrogen back to electricity?  How does it compare to pumping water uphill and using it to drive turbines later?

Pumped hydro does not require any exotic fuel cell materials, and the storage requirements are a lot simpler.
 
2022-05-19 6:14:43 PM  

jso2897: Geotpf: Kalyco Jack: We need nuclear. Like now.

Do you have an extra $9.8 billion $25 billion $??? billion lying around?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nukegate_scandal

As far as I can tell the "WE need Nuke" comment in every thread that is somehow energy related is just trolling bait at this point.
They know that nuke isn't sustainable, either environmentally or economically.
They just drop it and run, like a dog shiatting on your carpet when he knows he's not supposed to.


Energy in general is not sustainable, but fossil fuels make nuclear look like a church. Electrical generation is always going to be expensive, dangerous, and inconvenient.
 
2022-05-19 6:36:04 PM  

Obama's Left Nut: Regarding the headlines crud about using water in a desert...

They are replacing coal fired plants.Those plant use 12500 acre feet of water per year.  The new plant will use 2500 acre feet of water per year.  So it will net increase the water available.  Also once the hydrogen is burned water is a by product.

The power use to make the hydrogen is excess wind and solar so this is basically a huge battery..... on a scale that is stunning.


On the one hand, you use water to generate the hydrogen. On the other hand, when you burn the hydrogen, you get the water back.
 
2022-05-19 6:38:05 PM  
It all sounds good, until you realize that they're risking a toxic dihydrogen monoxide spill at any time.
 
2022-05-19 7:31:12 PM  

Geotpf: Kalyco Jack: We need nuclear. Like now.

Do you have an extra $9.8 billion $25 billion $??? billion lying around?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nukegate_scandal


Nuclear Diamond Batteries.

diamond-batteries | Cabot Institute for the Environment | University of Bristol

"Nuclear Batteries" Offer a New Approach to Carbon-Free Energy (scitechdaily.com)
 
2022-05-19 7:34:07 PM  

zeaper12: Fun fact, when hydrogen burns the flame is invisible.


The flame is red. Really pretty red.

I believe you are thinking of alcohol
 
2022-05-19 8:03:04 PM  
After years of reading people's internet opinions on hydrogen, I am quite certain that most people think they know better than professionals who spend their lives researching and developing on this topic. The internet cognoscenti are perfectly content to advise everyone about things that just aren't true.

Here are some doozies.

1. Hydrogen will never be economical.
2. Hydrogen is inherently dangerous.
3. Hydrogen is not useful.

There are many others. At least 10. People don't care because you can find people who get paid to push x technology as an alternative at every turn. Typically the conversation spins off to some technology that is "just as good," or whatever. Some people "get" hydrogen, and others never will. I am perfectly willing to accept that.
 
2022-05-19 8:11:28 PM  

Shadow Blasko: I believe you are thinking of alcohol


You're on fark, captain obvious.
 
2022-05-19 9:08:48 PM  

flondrix: SpectroBoy: The article is actually pretty good.

They are using surplus capacity of green tech (solar, wind) to release for electrolysis and using local salt caves to store the hydrogen. It's a clever "battery" behind green generation.


The scale alone is staggering and makes the article worth the read.

How efficient is the "round trip" from electricity to stored hydrogen back to electricity?  How does it compare to pumping water uphill and using it to drive turbines later?

Pumped hydro does not require any exotic fuel cell materials, and the storage requirements are a lot simpler.


It is much more efficent.  A large water pump you may get 60% efficiency.  The rectifiers on to convert the AC to DC are better the 95% efficent. The actual electrolysis extremely efficient as well, do not remember the numbers off the top of my head.

(Electrical engineer who worked on the losing company bid for the project)
 
2022-05-19 9:39:46 PM  
Green Hydrogen is such a scam. It makes battery backed solar seem cheap. Electrolysis is horribly in efficient. When all is said and done they will be lucky to get half the energy expended to create the hydrogen.
 
2022-05-19 9:51:13 PM  

Kalyco Jack: jso2897: Geotpf: Kalyco Jack: We need nuclear. Like now.

Do you have an extra $9.8 billion $25 billion $??? billion lying around?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nukegate_scandal

As far as I can tell the "WE need Nuke" comment in every thread that is somehow energy related is just trolling bait at this point.
They know that nuke isn't sustainable, either environmentally or economically.
They just drop it and run, like a dog shiatting on your carpet when he knows he's not supposed to.

Energy in general is not sustainable, but fossil fuels make nuclear look like a church. Electrical generation is always going to be expensive, dangerous, and inconvenient.


Well, then, let's just go back to coal - it's cheap, easy, and equally off-topic.
 
2022-05-19 9:59:32 PM  

syrynxx: Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.


Zero-sum is the impossible theoretical best. The actual real-world best we can do right now is to lose about 2/3 of the energy you start with.

It's better than having no way to store energy at all... but we have substantially more effective ways to store energy.
 
2022-05-19 10:15:41 PM  

Boooozy: flondrix: SpectroBoy: The article is actually pretty good.

They are using surplus capacity of green tech (solar, wind) to release for electrolysis and using local salt caves to store the hydrogen. It's a clever "battery" behind green generation.


The scale alone is staggering and makes the article worth the read.

How efficient is the "round trip" from electricity to stored hydrogen back to electricity?  How does it compare to pumping water uphill and using it to drive turbines later?

Pumped hydro does not require any exotic fuel cell materials, and the storage requirements are a lot simpler.

It is much more efficent.  A large water pump you may get 60% efficiency.  The rectifiers on to convert the AC to DC are better the 95% efficent. The actual electrolysis extremely efficient as well, do not remember the numbers off the top of my head.

(Electrical engineer who worked on the losing company bid for the project)


"Pumped-storage hydropower is more than 80 percent energy efficient through a full cycle"

Does the system in the article burn the hydrogen in an engine or use a fuel cell?  The former is subject to the Second Law, the latter is rather expensive.
 
2022-05-19 11:05:00 PM  

flondrix: Boooozy: flondrix: SpectroBoy: The article is actually pretty good.

They are using surplus capacity of green tech (solar, wind) to release for electrolysis and using local salt caves to store the hydrogen. It's a clever "battery" behind green generation.


The scale alone is staggering and makes the article worth the read.

How efficient is the "round trip" from electricity to stored hydrogen back to electricity?  How does it compare to pumping water uphill and using it to drive turbines later?

Pumped hydro does not require any exotic fuel cell materials, and the storage requirements are a lot simpler.

It is much more efficent.  A large water pump you may get 60% efficiency.  The rectifiers on to convert the AC to DC are better the 95% efficent. The actual electrolysis extremely efficient as well, do not remember the numbers off the top of my head.

(Electrical engineer who worked on the losing company bid for the project)

"Pumped-storage hydropower is more than 80 percent energy efficient through a full cycle"

Does the system in the article burn the hydrogen in an engine or use a fuel cell?  The former is subject to the Second Law, the latter is rather expensive.


Whether they're using a fuel cell or a combustion engine, you're only gonna get something like 30% round-trip efficiency with hydrogen.

Electrolysis alone is about 80% efficient, so you lose 20% right out of the gate. But how do you get the energy back out of the hydrogen?

First you gotta store it, and you have to spend some of the energy just pumping and compressing it for storage.  Maaaaaybe they're using a lower storage pressure here, so they can trim this down from "bad" to "medium."

Then you have to run it through a fuel cell (~50% efficiency) or an engine of some sort (~30% efficiency).

This is a fixed-location system, so they could use a second stage to recover some of the waste heat, which would improve things... but you're basically stuck with an absolute ceiling of 80% and multiple lossy steps that reduce it from there.

I didn't realize pumped-storage hydro could reach 80%, but if it can, it stomps all over the best we can do with hydrogen.  And that's always the big gotcha with hydrogen.  It's "electric, with extra steps" or "combustion, with extra steps."  Those extra steps mean that fundamentally, it can't beat simpler electric or combustion arrangements-- you'll always lose more of your energy with it.
 
2022-05-20 8:11:03 AM  

WastrelWay: syrynxx: Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.

Elon Musk has explained it and called it stupid, but not as concisely. Thank you.


Proving Elon Musk is often full of crap.

The article explains this.
 
2022-05-20 9:09:18 AM  

Shadow Blasko: zeaper12: Fun fact, when hydrogen burns the flame is invisible.

The flame is red. Really pretty red.

I believe you are thinking of alcohol


At night hydrogen will show a faint blue flame, much like alcohol.  In daylight a hydrogen flame is pretty much invisible.

Not sure why you would claim it burns red.
 
2022-05-20 11:29:02 AM  

raygundan: I didn't realize pumped-storage hydro could reach 80%,


The article I cited was written by someone with a dog in that fight, so finding other sources might be in order.

But the guy who said pumps were 60% efficient sounded way off base.
 
2022-05-20 11:40:06 AM  

Ivo Shandor: syrynxx: Fuel comes from water... OK do they need another power plant to provide the electricity to split the water into H and O? It's zero-sum at best to use that hydrogen as 'fuel'.

The article explains that it's temporary energy storage for wind and solar generation. Expect to see more of it in the future. Another step will be using the hydrogen as a chemical feedstock to produce ammonia fertilizer etc. instead of only for power generation. It's also an option for a future aviation fuel.


What is this world coming to when I'm expected to read TFA  before posting an opinion
 
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