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(Tech Xplore)   Who holds back the electric car? We do   (techxplore.com) divider line
    More: Plug, Electric vehicle, Automobile, Plug-in hybrid, Psychology, increase of greenhouse gases, Electric vehicles, Internal combustion engine, recent study  
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707 clicks; posted to STEM » on 19 May 2022 at 3:34 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-05-19 2:42:04 PM  
"Sure electric cars pollute less and I wouldn't have to buy gas, but what about when I need to tow a camper through 6 states in 3 days?"

"Dude, you drive a Chevy Cavalier."
 
2022-05-19 3:41:54 PM  
With the advertizing budgets of automakers you'd think this wouldn't be an issue. Instead they've spent all of their time showing people singing along to the radio and driving fast on winding country roads. But sure, blame consumers for not knowing what changes have been made in the last three years.
 
2022-05-19 3:45:31 PM  
I love my ioniq 5
 
2022-05-19 3:49:06 PM  
It doesn't help that the spokesman for the most visible electric car company in the world is an epic douchecanoe who has zero interest in actually helping the environment.
 
2022-05-19 3:50:11 PM  
Any household for which towing or long road trips are likely to be an issue is most likely a multi-car household anyway.
 
2022-05-19 3:51:08 PM  

Marcos P: I love my ioniq 5


If I were in the market today, I'd probably be buying that.
 
2022-05-19 3:51:44 PM  

IlGreven: It doesn't help that the spokesman for the most visible electric car company in the world is an epic douchecanoe who has zero interest in actually helping the environment.


And instead of talking about the capabilities of the cars he's selling he's out there constantly lying about the cars and trucks that are only a year away.
 
2022-05-19 3:54:29 PM  
HAH. I was literally just talking about that in an EV thread on here a day or two ago.

The vast majority of people drive 25 miles or less the vast majority of the time. The minimum max range of most EV's is around 250 miles - way, way more than almost anyone would need for almost any day of driving they require.

For those rare times it isn't - for instance the vacation my wife and I go on once or twice a year where we actually drive a few hours away - a second car would cover it, or a drive with rest stops to charge and stretch your legs. Some EV's (like the new Hyundai Kona, if I'm not mistaken) even have high voltage DC fast charging now, which will charge very fast at appropriate stations. Even charging at a most charging stations will probably only mean a 15-30 minute charge most of the time to get ready for the next leg.
 
2022-05-19 3:56:04 PM  
Need more apartment complexes to add in charging stations for EVs.  I park my car outside at mine and lots of just flat spots with no charging available.

That and yeah, can't really do long trips in em effectively yet.
 
2022-05-19 3:57:12 PM  

IlGreven: It doesn't help that the spokesman for the most visible electric car company in the world is an epic douchecanoe who has zero interest in actually helping the environment.


The wife and I very much want our next car to be an electric and Elon's certainly talked himself out of Tesla being one of the choices we consider. Big time.

The good news is that means we probably will get better build quality, Android Auto, and better driver controls for cabin stuff.
 
2022-05-19 4:00:39 PM  

mongbiohazard: HAH. I was literally just talking about that in an EV thread on here a day or two ago.

The vast majority of people drive 25 miles or less the vast majority of the time. The minimum max range of most EV's is around 250 miles - way, way more than almost anyone would need for almost any day of driving they require.

For those rare times it isn't - for instance the vacation my wife and I go on once or twice a year where we actually drive a few hours away - a second car would cover it, or a drive with rest stops to charge and stretch your legs. Some EV's (like the new Hyundai Kona, if I'm not mistaken) even have high voltage DC fast charging now, which will charge very fast at appropriate stations. Even charging at a most charging stations will probably only mean a 15-30 minute charge most of the time to get ready for the next leg.


I know plenty of people who fill up when their tank is at around 1/4 full, and now they want those same people to buy a car where that's the entire range. That they'd probably get around just fine won't help. They'll still feel that they're always on the verge of their car dying in the middle of the road.
 
2022-05-19 4:07:27 PM  

theresnothinglft: Need more apartment complexes to add in charging stations for EVs.  I park my car outside at mine and lots of just flat spots with no charging available.

That and yeah, can't really do long trips in em effectively yet.


The good news is that - at least for the big firms I work for or have worked for recently - any new apartment community being built includes a number of spaces with electric chargers. When the development folks discussed with me the second tower for the urban high-rise I used to run a few years ago, electric car chargers were definitely included. We'll need more as adoption increases, but for now they're getting easier to find even in apartment communities - assuming you move into new construction.

I believe that a lot of it is because a lot of the executives and upper management for the management companies are buying electric cars themselves. Actually, many years ago I worked for Marriott (this is like 10-12 years ago, I did furnished housing stuff for them) and their HQ here in Maryland literally had preferential parking for hybrids and EV's already. Hybrids and EV's parked in the front lots, IC engine vehicles parked in the back lots and parking structures in the back of the parking area. The folks in charge of businesses of all sorts make decisions based in no small part on their own personal assumptions and preferences.
 
2022-05-19 4:10:09 PM  

Russ1642: mongbiohazard: HAH. I was literally just talking about that in an EV thread on here a day or two ago.

The vast majority of people drive 25 miles or less the vast majority of the time. The minimum max range of most EV's is around 250 miles - way, way more than almost anyone would need for almost any day of driving they require.

For those rare times it isn't - for instance the vacation my wife and I go on once or twice a year where we actually drive a few hours away - a second car would cover it, or a drive with rest stops to charge and stretch your legs. Some EV's (like the new Hyundai Kona, if I'm not mistaken) even have high voltage DC fast charging now, which will charge very fast at appropriate stations. Even charging at a most charging stations will probably only mean a 15-30 minute charge most of the time to get ready for the next leg.

I know plenty of people who fill up when their tank is at around 1/4 full, and now they want those same people to buy a car where that's the entire range. That they'd probably get around just fine won't help. They'll still feel that they're always on the verge of their car dying in the middle of the road.


What the hell are your friends driving?

The average range for an EV is 194 miles (as of October last year). Are you saying most people can go 776 miles on a tank of gas?

My old 4Runner is lucky to get 185 before the light comes on. My much more efficient Mazda can stretch to over 400. 

A 2022 Prius is supposed to have a 640 mile range.
 
2022-05-19 4:14:09 PM  
I got 9500 miles on the first two tanks of gas in my Prius Prime.
 
2022-05-19 4:18:21 PM  
I've been driving an EV exclusively since May of 2015. Reside in the Baltimore area and been to south Florida twice, once with the car packed with my sisters belongings as she moved there. Upstate New York a few times and Lake Winnipesaukee once.

I have no idea why people think that EVs can't be used for long range driving. When my car was new it had about a 250 mile range, today it has about a 240+ mile range. I can assure you, no matter how comfortable the seats are in the car, after sitting in it for 3 hours on highways I am ready to get out for a breather. When I drove to Lake George, NY one fall it took about an hour or so longer due to charging but when I showed up at the hotel all I did was toss my luggage into the room and spend the rest of the day wandering around the town. I wasn't the least bit tired.

I do not miss the go go go malarkey with gas powered vehicles and I don't get there much later than anyone else. But when I get there I'm not exhausted.

Even back in 2015 there were a lot of charging stations. Today, you can't drive a mile without seeing a charging station. The only people that have a legit beef are apartment and condo dwellers.

/ EVs are not the answer to all that woes you, fuel powered vehicles will remain for a long time to come
 
2022-05-19 4:19:31 PM  

JessieL: Russ1642: mongbiohazard: HAH. I was literally just talking about that in an EV thread on here a day or two ago.

The vast majority of people drive 25 miles or less the vast majority of the time. The minimum max range of most EV's is around 250 miles - way, way more than almost anyone would need for almost any day of driving they require.

For those rare times it isn't - for instance the vacation my wife and I go on once or twice a year where we actually drive a few hours away - a second car would cover it, or a drive with rest stops to charge and stretch your legs. Some EV's (like the new Hyundai Kona, if I'm not mistaken) even have high voltage DC fast charging now, which will charge very fast at appropriate stations. Even charging at a most charging stations will probably only mean a 15-30 minute charge most of the time to get ready for the next leg.

I know plenty of people who fill up when their tank is at around 1/4 full, and now they want those same people to buy a car where that's the entire range. That they'd probably get around just fine won't help. They'll still feel that they're always on the verge of their car dying in the middle of the road.

What the hell are your friends driving?

The average range for an EV is 194 miles (as of October last year). Are you saying most people can go 776 miles on a tank of gas?

My old 4Runner is lucky to get 185 before the light comes on. My much more efficient Mazda can stretch to over 400. 

A 2022 Prius is supposed to have a 640 mile range.


The average range of an electric car is crap. You only get the these great ranges when you restrict yourself to a few specific models. And if you want one of them you're probably going to be waiting over a year just to get it. And then there's cost to consider and the lifespan of those batteries. Calling people stupid for thinking that electric car ranges suck isn't going to help sell them, because those people are mostly right. "Oh, it's not a quarter of the range of a gas vehicle, it's up to a half now!!!" And the range on the Prius you talk about is probably only if you only drive 100 km/hr on the highway with a tailwind and never use any other power in the vehicle, such as headlights or heaters. Yeah, I'm a bit off but people complaining about range will go away only when they increase the range, not when they convince everyone they don't need it.
 
2022-05-19 4:24:34 PM  

Russ1642: JessieL: Russ1642: mongbiohazard: HAH. I was literally just talking about that in an EV thread on here a day or two ago.

The vast majority of people drive 25 miles or less the vast majority of the time. The minimum max range of most EV's is around 250 miles - way, way more than almost anyone would need for almost any day of driving they require.

For those rare times it isn't - for instance the vacation my wife and I go on once or twice a year where we actually drive a few hours away - a second car would cover it, or a drive with rest stops to charge and stretch your legs. Some EV's (like the new Hyundai Kona, if I'm not mistaken) even have high voltage DC fast charging now, which will charge very fast at appropriate stations. Even charging at a most charging stations will probably only mean a 15-30 minute charge most of the time to get ready for the next leg.

I know plenty of people who fill up when their tank is at around 1/4 full, and now they want those same people to buy a car where that's the entire range. That they'd probably get around just fine won't help. They'll still feel that they're always on the verge of their car dying in the middle of the road.

What the hell are your friends driving?

The average range for an EV is 194 miles (as of October last year). Are you saying most people can go 776 miles on a tank of gas?

My old 4Runner is lucky to get 185 before the light comes on. My much more efficient Mazda can stretch to over 400. 

A 2022 Prius is supposed to have a 640 mile range.

The average range of an electric car is crap. You only get the these great ranges when you restrict yourself to a few specific models. And if you want one of them you're probably going to be waiting over a year just to get it. And then there's cost to consider and the lifespan of those batteries. Calling people stupid for thinking that electric car ranges suck isn't going to help sell them, because those people are mostly right. "Oh, it's not a quarter of the range of a gas vehicle, it's up to a half now!!!" And the range on the Prius you talk about is probably only if you only drive 100 km/hr on the highway with a tailwind and never use any other power in the vehicle, such as headlights or heaters. Yeah, I'm a bit off but people complaining about range will go away only when they increase the range, not when they convince everyone they don't need it.


This is bonko thinking, what TFA was talking about. The fact actually is that the vast majority of drivers go 25 miles or less a day, and you don't fill your IC engine vehicle up at the gas station every day when you do - but you'll top your electric car up each night at home for a LOT less expense.

For the overwhelming majority of people an electric car will already cover their needs quite well, but we're stuck thinking in terms of electric vehicles from decades ago and with illogical demands of capability.
 
2022-05-19 4:26:32 PM  

Russ1642: The average range of an electric car is crap. You only get the these great ranges when you restrict yourself to a few specific models. And if you want one of them you're probably going to be waiting over a year just to get it. And then there's cost to consider and the lifespan of those batteries. Calling people stupid for thinking that electric car ranges suck isn't going to help sell them, because those people are mostly right. "Oh, it's not a quarter of the range of a gas vehicle, it's up to a half now!!!" And the range on the Prius you talk about is probably only if you only drive 100 km/hr on the highway with a tailwind and never use any other power in the vehicle, such as headlights or heaters. Yeah, I'm a bit off but people complaining about range will go away only when they increase the range, not when they convince everyone they don't need it.


I quoted the average range for all electrics sold for a reason. Some are better and some are worse.

I didn't call anyone stupid, I just questioned your math. And I pointed out that the average is already better than some existing gas vehicles.

Also, the Prius is a farking gas powered car. I used it for an example of the high end of gasoline ranges.

Stop acting like the existence of electric cars is a personal assault against you maybe.
 
2022-05-19 4:26:46 PM  
Although the main financial and technological obstacles have been removed...

Lol, no. The prices are still significantly higher than the regular vehicle, and the charging points are too few. I could drive around the city without any problem but going anywhere over 200km one way could become an issue if I can't find a charging point mid-way that is available, and working.
 
2022-05-19 4:30:06 PM  

Russ1642: With the advertising budgets of automakers you'd think this wouldn't be an issue. Instead they've spent all of their time showing people singing along to the radio and driving fast on winding country roads. But sure, blame consumers for not knowing what changes have been made in the last three years.


Why, it's almost as if car makers and car dealers are aware enough to have noticed that (like movie theaters and popcorn, or razor makers and blades) the bulk of their profits come from *service and maintenance*, which will mostly evaporate once everyone goes electric, and thus they can't be arsed to do a competent job of advertising and selling electric vehicles!
 
2022-05-19 4:37:38 PM  
Maybe you should buy an electric bike, in the $350-1600 range.  For less than a few college textbooks, you'll learn all about range-anxiety, what's it like to charge something larger than a phone/laptop, where to park, how to keep from doing 0-60 starts in 3.0 secs, how to deal with second thoughts about getting solar panels, battery bank walls.

You get around your neighbor hood, wondering where all the charging stations are, which kind they are.   You may wonder where the 40% who don't have real access to a proper home docking station will do.  You may marvel at how simple the electric motor is vs the internal combustion vs the steam engine is.

The experience will ease you into what battery powered rocket ships can do and also help you obsess about redoing that dune buggy yourself and how to sift through the explosion of battery/charging/powering tech info that's out there.
 
2022-05-19 4:40:52 PM  

Interceptor1: I've been driving an EV exclusively since May of 2015. Reside in the Baltimore area and been to south Florida twice, once with the car packed with my sisters belongings as she moved there. Upstate New York a few times and Lake Winnipesaukee once.

I have no idea why people think that EVs can't be used for long range driving. When my car was new it had about a 250 mile range, today it has about a 240+ mile range. I can assure you, no matter how comfortable the seats are in the car, after sitting in it for 3 hours on highways I am ready to get out for a breather. When I drove to Lake George, NY one fall it took about an hour or so longer due to charging but when I showed up at the hotel all I did was toss my luggage into the room and spend the rest of the day wandering around the town. I wasn't the least bit tired.

I do not miss the go go go malarkey with gas powered vehicles and I don't get there much later than anyone else. But when I get there I'm not exhausted.

Even back in 2015 there were a lot of charging stations. Today, you can't drive a mile without seeing a charging station. The only people that have a legit beef are apartment and condo dwellers.

/ EVs are not the answer to all that woes you, fuel powered vehicles will remain for a long time to come


Every EV article I see online is filled with comments pushing outright lies or people who have no idea what they're talking about.  Everything from 'you're going to have to stop for 8+ hours every 200 miles on a road trip' to 'you're going to have to spend $20k for new batteries every 5 years'.  I don't know if people actually believe this nonsense, but can't rule it out since I see this stuff all the time.

That said, I live in a condo with no way to charge at home, and have been driving a PHEV for 4 1/2 years. I'm luck enough to be able to charge at work (when the office isn't locked down in a pandemic), but with a car with only 20 miles electric range I've been able to average ~100 MPG since I've owned this car.  If I had a PHEV with 50 miles of range and could charge at home, I would likely have to buy gas less frequently than once a year.

Point being that an EV with 200 miles range would likely suit the needs of 80% of the population, but there is so much BS surrounding them that it is preventing a lot of people from buying one despite the fact that they would be happier with one than with an ICE.
 
2022-05-19 4:44:20 PM  
If you're scared of the range, or have a legitimate range need, get a plug-in hybrid.

If you're not, go EV only.

You get to drive EV only for 50KM, which will be 99% of your trips, and you can still drive long distance on petrol.
 
2022-05-19 4:57:54 PM  

BitwiseShift: Maybe you should buy an electric bike, in the $350-1600 range.  For less than a few college textbooks, you'll learn all about range-anxiety


A small nitpick... an electric bike with a dead battery is still a bike.  Range anxiety is substantially reduced when you've got a built-in fallback.

But also, yeah... there isn't much to be anxious about with EV range these days, either.  About the only major gripe I have is the unrealistic range ratings the EPA puts out.  But I suppose there's a long tradition of the EPA giving super ultra best-case numbers for fuel economy, so maybe people are just used to that and automatically expect it's 20-30% less than claimed.  Still, nothing prevents manufacturers from using lower range numbers that are more realistic on the label, and I wish they would (a few actually do, even).  Once we get through the backlog of "will put up with nonsense to reduce emissions" early adopters, there's going to be a LOT of totally justified "my 300-mile EV runs out of charge at 240 miles" gripes, even if the charging network density makes it moot.

Mostly, I think this will be a self-solving problem.  People who have doubts eventually have a friend or relative that has an EV, and find out their worries are already solved in-person from someone they trust.  And eventually they replace their car with an EV, and become that friend or relative for somebody else, and so on and so forth.About the only market we haven't really got a solution for is the "I want to be a loud, showy douchebag" crowd-- but I'm sure somebody's got a jacob's ladder/tesla coil kit in the works so your electric car shoots angry lightning that we can use to ease the coal-rolling crowd into this as well.
 
2022-05-19 5:01:11 PM  

raygundan: A small nitpick... an electric bike with a dead battery is still a bike.  Range anxiety is substantially reduced when you've got a built-in fallback.


Many aren't.  In fact, it's remarkable when an electric bike is easy to peddle with a dead battery.  Most are really hard to peddle without the battery on, especially if you live in a hilly area.
 
2022-05-19 5:05:13 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Russ1642: With the advertising budgets of automakers you'd think this wouldn't be an issue. Instead they've spent all of their time showing people singing along to the radio and driving fast on winding country roads. But sure, blame consumers for not knowing what changes have been made in the last three years.

Why, it's almost as if car makers and car dealers are aware enough to have noticed that (like movie theaters and popcorn, or razor makers and blades) the bulk of their profits come from *service and maintenance*, which will mostly evaporate once everyone goes electric, and thus they can't be arsed to do a competent job of advertising and selling electric vehicles!


Do electric cars really require significantly less service than gas powered ones?  I don't, I've never owned one.   I have a couple of problems with my ICE car now, two of the power windows no longer work, and the idiot light telling me that my windshield washer fluid is low is always on even if there's plenty of fluid.  I also have two outstanding factory recalls, neither of which I'm really worried about because I don't live in a state where cars corrode.  None of these issues is effected by whether my car runs on gas or electricity.
 
2022-05-19 5:08:41 PM  

mongbiohazard: IlGreven: It doesn't help that the spokesman for the most visible electric car company in the world is an epic douchecanoe who has zero interest in actually helping the environment.

The wife and I very much want our next car to be an electric and Elon's certainly talked himself out of Tesla being one of the choices we consider. Big time.

The good news is that means we probably will get better build quality, Android Auto, and better driver controls for cabin stuff.


Yes I agree, I usually care more about the feeling that a CEO of a company is a big dumb meanie head when making the decision to buy a car. Definitely more important than, you know, the actual specs of the vehicle itself, things like range, cost and available charging stations etc.

At any rate if making such a laudable C-Suite oriented decision might be better to focus on the people who actually are responsible for running the company day to day like president Michael Goodman. Likely pure evil that one... economics major. {shudder}
 
2022-05-19 5:12:22 PM  

erktrek: mongbiohazard: IlGreven: It doesn't help that the spokesman for the most visible electric car company in the world is an epic douchecanoe who has zero interest in actually helping the environment.

The wife and I very much want our next car to be an electric and Elon's certainly talked himself out of Tesla being one of the choices we consider. Big time.

The good news is that means we probably will get better build quality, Android Auto, and better driver controls for cabin stuff.

Yes I agree, I usually care more about the feeling that a CEO of a company is a big dumb meanie head when making the decision to buy a car. Definitely more important than, you know, the actual specs of the vehicle itself, things like range, cost and available charging stations etc.

At any rate if making such a laudable C-Suite oriented decision might be better to focus on the people who actually are responsible for running the company day to day like president Michael Goodman. Likely pure evil that one... economics major. {shudder}


And I goofed... sigh.. that was for Tesla Forecasting apparently.. hangs head in utter shame.. my g-foo is weak.
 
2022-05-19 5:14:40 PM  

hlehmann: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Russ1642: With the advertising budgets of automakers you'd think this wouldn't be an issue. Instead they've spent all of their time showing people singing along to the radio and driving fast on winding country roads. But sure, blame consumers for not knowing what changes have been made in the last three years.

Why, it's almost as if car makers and car dealers are aware enough to have noticed that (like movie theaters and popcorn, or razor makers and blades) the bulk of their profits come from *service and maintenance*, which will mostly evaporate once everyone goes electric, and thus they can't be arsed to do a competent job of advertising and selling electric vehicles!

Do electric cars really require significantly less service than gas powered ones?  I don't, I've never owned one.   I have a couple of problems with my ICE car now, two of the power windows no longer work, and the idiot light telling me that my windshield washer fluid is low is always on even if there's plenty of fluid.  I also have two outstanding factory recalls, neither of which I'm really worried about because I don't live in a state where cars corrode.  None of these issues is effected by whether my car runs on gas or electricity.


Scheduled maintenance on an EV is basically just tire rotations and cabin air filter changes. No oil changes, transmission service, belts, hoses, or spark plugs.

The motor has essentially one moving part, the "transmission" is a single speed, and the absence of vibration and extreme temperatures tends to make the rest of the car last a bit better too.
 
2022-05-19 5:19:55 PM  

hlehmann: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Russ1642: With the advertising budgets of automakers you'd think this wouldn't be an issue. Instead they've spent all of their time showing people singing along to the radio and driving fast on winding country roads. But sure, blame consumers for not knowing what changes have been made in the last three years.

Why, it's almost as if car makers and car dealers are aware enough to have noticed that (like movie theaters and popcorn, or razor makers and blades) the bulk of their profits come from *service and maintenance*, which will mostly evaporate once everyone goes electric, and thus they can't be arsed to do a competent job of advertising and selling electric vehicles!

Do electric cars really require significantly less service than gas powered ones?  I don't, I've never owned one.   I have a couple of problems with my ICE car now, two of the power windows no longer work, and the idiot light telling me that my windshield washer fluid is low is always on even if there's plenty of fluid.  I also have two outstanding factory recalls, neither of which I'm really worried about because I don't live in a state where cars corrode.  None of these issues is effected by whether my car runs on gas or electricity.


Well, I don't have direct experience of electric vehicles, myself.

But from what I read, from what should be reputable sources, maintenance on electric vehicles should be largely limited to -

Tires
Brakes (which will need less maintenance on the electric due to regenerative braking)
Cooling system (the electric motor(s) and battery pack will need cooling, but less than an ICE engine)
Lubrication (but much less than the ICE car)
Shocks, struts, and other suspension items
Wiper Blades and lights (lights are going LED on a wide scale and getting more reliable across the board)
Cabin Air Filter, etc.

The electric vehicle, you lose the *entire* Rube Goldberg ("Heath Robinson", if you're British) mess of all the finicky, expensive moving parts in the engine, the starter, the transmission, the ignition, *lots* of lubrication and bearings, timing belts/chains, valves, fuel injection systems (or even worse - carburetors), fuel pump and fuel filters, power steering pumps and fluid (if they haven't gone electric, even in the ICE vehicle), the exhaust system and catalytic converter, etc.

I'm probably missing a lot of other things that the electric vehicle says 'goodbye' to.

But here's the thing - most of what's left that requires maintenance in an electric, with the exception of the brakes, tends to be much cheaper, easier, and faster to maintain, and require a less highly refined skill set, than the intricate bits the electric got rid of.

I'm sure, as time goes on, there will be a lot more empirical data available so that these contentions can be quantified.
 
2022-05-19 5:20:10 PM  
A 300 mile range might get me to replace our hybrid with an electric.  I would like a little more range than that.

I have one round-trip drive that I do regularly that is 150 miles each way.  There is an approx 80 mile section in there with no gas or charging.  It would be great if I could make that trip without having to find a charge.
 
2022-05-19 5:22:54 PM  

BitwiseShift: raygundan: A small nitpick... an electric bike with a dead battery is still a bike.  Range anxiety is substantially reduced when you've got a built-in fallback.

Many aren't.  In fact, it's remarkable when an electric bike is easy to peddle with a dead battery.  Most are really hard to peddle without the battery on, especially if you live in a hilly area.


Many aren't?  I thought e-bikes had pedals by definition.  I guess if the term applies to electric motorcycles as well, that's a different kettle of fish.
 
2022-05-19 5:28:03 PM  

raygundan: BitwiseShift: raygundan: A small nitpick... an electric bike with a dead battery is still a bike.  Range anxiety is substantially reduced when you've got a built-in fallback.

Many aren't.  In fact, it's remarkable when an electric bike is easy to peddle with a dead battery.  Most are really hard to peddle without the battery on, especially if you live in a hilly area.

Many aren't?  I thought e-bikes had pedals by definition.  I guess if the term applies to electric motorcycles as well, that's a different kettle of fish.


I would hazard a guess that a *lot* depends on the design - which will be influenced by the cost and vice versa.

You'll have pedals, but you *might* be pedaling against electromagnetic resistance from the motor - like a regenerative braking effect.

Plus, batteries are NOT weightless!
 
2022-05-19 5:30:26 PM  
I think a large percentage of people don't want an electric car no matter what.  I think a large percentage of people might consider one, but only if it costs no more than a gas powered one (right now, that's not the case, even though you make it up in savings from gas and repairs).  Those two groups probably consist of at least 50% of the American motoring public.

I also worry about supply issues.  None of the Detroit 3 have demonstrated they can produce electric vehicles en masse, and most of the Japanese and some of the Europeans aren't much better.  Plus, keeping costs down when demand increases in all the exotic materials that make up an electric car will be difficult.

There is zero chance that either the car makers or governments are going to meet the various deadlines they are proposing for going all (or 50%, or whatever) electric.
 
2022-05-19 5:32:59 PM  

erktrek: erktrek: mongbiohazard: IlGreven: It doesn't help that the spokesman for the most visible electric car company in the world is an epic douchecanoe who has zero interest in actually helping the environment.

The wife and I very much want our next car to be an electric and Elon's certainly talked himself out of Tesla being one of the choices we consider. Big time.

The good news is that means we probably will get better build quality, Android Auto, and better driver controls for cabin stuff.

Yes I agree, I usually care more about the feeling that a CEO of a company is a big dumb meanie head when making the decision to buy a car. Definitely more important than, you know, the actual specs of the vehicle itself, things like range, cost and available charging stations etc.

At any rate if making such a laudable C-Suite oriented decision might be better to focus on the people who actually are responsible for running the company day to day like president Michael Goodman. Likely pure evil that one... economics major. {shudder}

And I goofed... sigh.. that was for Tesla Forecasting apparently.. hangs head in utter shame.. my g-foo is weak.


Regardless, I'd argue with your overall point.

For any given consumer decision like this there will be many options to choose from, and at minimum several of those options will likely be roughly equivalent and come down to some form of personal preference. There's nothing wrong with someone - like myself - having one of those preferences being that the manufacturer isn't led by people openly supporting nasty shiat. Steering your money towards companies which make you less uncomfortable to fund is literally a part of capitalism's market functionality. it's how us consumers get to voice our opinions.

It's also why anyone in business who isn't a moron keeps their politics to themselves when representing their company in public.
 
2022-05-19 5:40:13 PM  
Russ1642:

I know plenty of people who fill up when their tank is at around 1/4 full [snip]

That's... not unreasonable.  Below 1/4th of a tank part or all of the fuel pump inside the tank is exposed, and it doesn't last as long if you keep doing that.  There's a reason the low fuel warning is called the "idiot light".
 
2022-05-19 5:45:17 PM  

Geotpf: I think a large percentage of people don't want an electric car no matter what.  I think a large percentage of people might consider one, but only if it costs no more than a gas powered one (right now, that's not the case, even though you make it up in savings from gas and repairs).  Those two groups probably consist of at least 50% of the American motoring public.

I also worry about supply issues.  None of the Detroit 3 have demonstrated they can produce electric vehicles en masse, and most of the Japanese and some of the Europeans aren't much better.  Plus, keeping costs down when demand increases in all the exotic materials that make up an electric car will be difficult.

There is zero chance that either the car makers or governments are going to meet the various deadlines they are proposing for going all (or 50%, or whatever) electric.


Detroit will make damn sure they do not demonstrate an ability to make electric vehicles en masse, because once the dam breaks on electrification, the automakers and their symbiotic partner the dealers are going to suffer a financial bloodletting, as so much of their maintenance and service (/ spare parts) income and the dealer bullshiat fees go away.

They can probably keep the 'dealer / showroom' model going, and continue to hit customers up for 'Destination Charges' and the like, but even if they do, it won't be enough to replace the money the service bays bring in.

But there's a lot of customers out there these days who can live just fine without waiting breathlessly while the salesman "sees what my manager has to say".
 
2022-05-19 5:45:37 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: raygundan: BitwiseShift: raygundan: A small nitpick... an electric bike with a dead battery is still a bike.  Range anxiety is substantially reduced when you've got a built-in fallback.

Many aren't.  In fact, it's remarkable when an electric bike is easy to peddle with a dead battery.  Most are really hard to peddle without the battery on, especially if you live in a hilly area.

Many aren't?  I thought e-bikes had pedals by definition.  I guess if the term applies to electric motorcycles as well, that's a different kettle of fish.

I would hazard a guess that a *lot* depends on the design - which will be influenced by the cost and vice versa.

You'll have pedals, but you *might* be pedaling against electromagnetic resistance from the motor - like a regenerative braking effect.

Plus, batteries are NOT weightless!


I can't claim to have ridden every e-bike in the universe by a long shot, but I've been on quite a few, ranging from homebrew hub-motor conversions to nicely integrated mid-drive commercial offerings.  While there might be a tiny bit of extra rolling resistance, it's in the "too small for humans to notice without measuring equipment" ballpark on everything I've ever tried.  With the battery dead, it's "just a bike."

The battery and motor certainly add weight, though.  A pretty run-of-the-mill e-bike will weigh something like 50lbs, which is more like the steel Schwinn I had as a kid than the 16lb carbon-fiber-and-unicorn-farts road bike I've got today... but that Schwinn got me around fine.

I'm not saying people will love riding their ebikes with the battery flat-- just that you have a backup option you don't get with an electric car.
 
2022-05-19 5:50:02 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Geotpf: I think a large percentage of people don't want an electric car no matter what.  I think a large percentage of people might consider one, but only if it costs no more than a gas powered one (right now, that's not the case, even though you make it up in savings from gas and repairs).  Those two groups probably consist of at least 50% of the American motoring public.

I also worry about supply issues.  None of the Detroit 3 have demonstrated they can produce electric vehicles en masse, and most of the Japanese and some of the Europeans aren't much better.  Plus, keeping costs down when demand increases in all the exotic materials that make up an electric car will be difficult.

There is zero chance that either the car makers or governments are going to meet the various deadlines they are proposing for going all (or 50%, or whatever) electric.

Detroit will make damn sure they do not demonstrate an ability to make electric vehicles en masse, because once the dam breaks on electrification, the automakers and their symbiotic partner the dealers are going to suffer a financial bloodletting, as so much of their maintenance and service (/ spare parts) income and the dealer bullshiat fees go away.

They can probably keep the 'dealer / showroom' model going, and continue to hit customers up for 'Destination Charges' and the like, but even if they do, it won't be enough to replace the money the service bays bring in.

But there's a lot of customers out there these days who can live just fine without waiting breathlessly while the salesman "sees what my manager has to say".


This is mainly a problem for car dealers, not the car makers.
 
2022-05-19 5:56:38 PM  

Geotpf: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Geotpf: I think a large percentage of people don't want an electric car no matter what.  I think a large percentage of people might consider one, but only if it costs no more than a gas powered one (right now, that's not the case, even though you make it up in savings from gas and repairs).  Those two groups probably consist of at least 50% of the American motoring public.

I also worry about supply issues.  None of the Detroit 3 have demonstrated they can produce electric vehicles en masse, and most of the Japanese and some of the Europeans aren't much better.  Plus, keeping costs down when demand increases in all the exotic materials that make up an electric car will be difficult.

There is zero chance that either the car makers or governments are going to meet the various deadlines they are proposing for going all (or 50%, or whatever) electric.

Detroit will make damn sure they do not demonstrate an ability to make electric vehicles en masse, because once the dam breaks on electrification, the automakers and their symbiotic partner the dealers are going to suffer a financial bloodletting, as so much of their maintenance and service (/ spare parts) income and the dealer bullshiat fees go away.

They can probably keep the 'dealer / showroom' model going, and continue to hit customers up for 'Destination Charges' and the like, but even if they do, it won't be enough to replace the money the service bays bring in.

But there's a lot of customers out there these days who can live just fine without waiting breathlessly while the salesman "sees what my manager has to say".

This is mainly a problem for car dealers, not the car makers.


Like any dying industry, expect the car dealers to make it a problem for the car makers on their way out.  Hell, you can already see this happening today.
 
2022-05-19 5:58:17 PM  

Geotpf: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Geotpf: I think a large percentage of people don't want an electric car no matter what.  I think a large percentage of people might consider one, but only if it costs no more than a gas powered one (right now, that's not the case, even though you make it up in savings from gas and repairs).  Those two groups probably consist of at least 50% of the American motoring public.

I also worry about supply issues.  None of the Detroit 3 have demonstrated they can produce electric vehicles en masse, and most of the Japanese and some of the Europeans aren't much better.  Plus, keeping costs down when demand increases in all the exotic materials that make up an electric car will be difficult.

There is zero chance that either the car makers or governments are going to meet the various deadlines they are proposing for going all (or 50%, or whatever) electric.

Detroit will make damn sure they do not demonstrate an ability to make electric vehicles en masse, because once the dam breaks on electrification, the automakers and their symbiotic partner the dealers are going to suffer a financial bloodletting, as so much of their maintenance and service (/ spare parts) income and the dealer bullshiat fees go away.

They can probably keep the 'dealer / showroom' model going, and continue to hit customers up for 'Destination Charges' and the like, but even if they do, it won't be enough to replace the money the service bays bring in.

But there's a lot of customers out there these days who can live just fine without waiting breathlessly while the salesman "sees what my manager has to say".

This is mainly a problem for car dealers, not the car makers.


Aren't they usually joined at the hip?
 
2022-05-19 6:15:21 PM  

Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Geotpf: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Geotpf: I think a large percentage of people don't want an electric car no matter what.  I think a large percentage of people might consider one, but only if it costs no more than a gas powered one (right now, that's not the case, even though you make it up in savings from gas and repairs).  Those two groups probably consist of at least 50% of the American motoring public.

I also worry about supply issues.  None of the Detroit 3 have demonstrated they can produce electric vehicles en masse, and most of the Japanese and some of the Europeans aren't much better.  Plus, keeping costs down when demand increases in all the exotic materials that make up an electric car will be difficult.

There is zero chance that either the car makers or governments are going to meet the various deadlines they are proposing for going all (or 50%, or whatever) electric.

Detroit will make damn sure they do not demonstrate an ability to make electric vehicles en masse, because once the dam breaks on electrification, the automakers and their symbiotic partner the dealers are going to suffer a financial bloodletting, as so much of their maintenance and service (/ spare parts) income and the dealer bullshiat fees go away.

They can probably keep the 'dealer / showroom' model going, and continue to hit customers up for 'Destination Charges' and the like, but even if they do, it won't be enough to replace the money the service bays bring in.

But there's a lot of customers out there these days who can live just fine without waiting breathlessly while the salesman "sees what my manager has to say".

This is mainly a problem for car dealers, not the car makers.

Aren't they usually joined at the hip?


Traditionally, yes.  But the big change with EVs is the decrease in maintenance revenue dealerships rely on.  Which leads to dealerships steering people away from EVs.  Which leads to car makers attempting direct sales so they can actually get their product into customer hands.  Which leads to dealerships fighting tooth-and-nail for laws to require cars only be sold through independently-owned dealerships, and so on and so on.
 
2022-05-19 6:26:03 PM  

mongbiohazard: The vast majority of people drive 25 miles or less the vast majority of the time. The minimum max range of most EV's is around 250 miles - way, way more than almost anyone would need for almost any day of driving they require.


Most?  I mean, I know that the good ones have that kind or range, but I thought that most, including the more affordable ones, were under 200 miles.
 
2022-05-19 6:31:35 PM  
We have legitimate biases. While we commute in the range of most EVs, there are often times we drive beyond that range for family or work besides the major road trip edge case that EV proponents always cite. Additionally, the cost to replace the battery is A LOT.  Additionally, there are not a lot of fast chargers compared to gas pumps.

All that said, I am deciding between a Ford Lighting or a Hybrid F150 as my next vehicle (4 years away). I want to own an EV but I have the same concerns that others have and they are very valid.
 
2022-05-19 6:46:43 PM  
What's holding me back from buying an electric vehicle today is the $5k dealer adjustment and the 6-month waiting list.
 
2022-05-19 6:50:12 PM  

flondrix: mongbiohazard: The vast majority of people drive 25 miles or less the vast majority of the time. The minimum max range of most EV's is around 250 miles - way, way more than almost anyone would need for almost any day of driving they require.

Most?  I mean, I know that the good ones have that kind or range, but I thought that most, including the more affordable ones, were under 200 miles.


I think there's only a handful left being made with range below 200 miles.  The lowest-trim version of the Leaf is 150, the new Mazda MX-30 is just 100 miles (and is being roundly mocked for it), and the Mini Cooper SE at 114.  I can't find a complete list anywhere, but those are the only three I can find.
 
2022-05-19 7:04:24 PM  

JessieL: hlehmann: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Russ1642: With the advertising budgets of automakers you'd think this wouldn't be an issue. Instead they've spent all of their time showing people singing along to the radio and driving fast on winding country roads. But sure, blame consumers for not knowing what changes have been made in the last three years.

Why, it's almost as if car makers and car dealers are aware enough to have noticed that (like movie theaters and popcorn, or razor makers and blades) the bulk of their profits come from *service and maintenance*, which will mostly evaporate once everyone goes electric, and thus they can't be arsed to do a competent job of advertising and selling electric vehicles!

Do electric cars really require significantly less service than gas powered ones?  I don't, I've never owned one.   I have a couple of problems with my ICE car now, two of the power windows no longer work, and the idiot light telling me that my windshield washer fluid is low is always on even if there's plenty of fluid.  I also have two outstanding factory recalls, neither of which I'm really worried about because I don't live in a state where cars corrode.  None of these issues is effected by whether my car runs on gas or electricity.

Scheduled maintenance on an EV is basically just tire rotations and cabin air filter changes. No oil changes, transmission service, belts, hoses, or spark plugs.

The motor has essentially one moving part, the "transmission" is a single speed, and the absence of vibration and extreme temperatures tends to make the rest of the car last a bit better too.


The batteries degrade but can't be maintained. At some point you need to decide to replace them which isn't exactly a minor thing.
 
2022-05-19 7:07:36 PM  

flondrix: mongbiohazard: The vast majority of people drive 25 miles or less the vast majority of the time. The minimum max range of most EV's is around 250 miles - way, way more than almost anyone would need for almost any day of driving they require.

Most?  I mean, I know that the good ones have that kind or range, but I thought that most, including the more affordable ones, were under 200 miles.


Yeah, you know what? It's like half and half, below and above 200 miles range now. I had checked a bunch of EV's recently... and turns out all the ones I was looking up just happened to be biased towards the higher end of the range being offered. lol, just my luck.

I thought the Nissan Leaf - the cheap, mass-production EV - had a 226 mile min, but it looks like I didn't read the fine print, and the base model Leaf starts at 149 miles. The 226 mile battery is an upgraded battery option. The bigger battery is a great option, but in my mind the capability of the base models are more important when discussing broadly. Still, 149 miles range means wifey and I would still be able to use it exactly the same since we only drive more than 20 or so miles when we go on vacation once or twice a year. It'd be the same diff, charging up overnight.

But then you've got why I was under the impression pretty much all the base models were at around 250 and up. The Chevy Bolt starts at 259 miles, Hyundai has a whole range of EV offerings which have base models themselves which could be 170/258/or 303 miles range, Kia EV's start at 239 and go up from there, etc.. Which is important to recognize - there are a lot of +200 mile range options out there now anyway, and they're not just relegated to luxury models either. The Bolt is not a luxury car. Hyundai and Kia aren't luxury brands either. The Leaf still has a relatively affordable option with a 226 mile battery - and then you can factor in tax incentives and even better the lack of having to constantly feed it expensive gasoline, and repair it much less often too.

Honestly speaking, EV's are now not fringe vehicles. They're legitimate options, and will often cost much less of our precious dollar moneys over the course of owning one, and worthwhile budget options exist too.
 
2022-05-19 7:17:00 PM  

Marcos P: I love my ioniq 5


Can I ask what kind of efficiency you're getting? My wife has one on order, but I'm hearing disappointing things about the efficiency. There are plenty of chargers where I live, but they typically top out around 50 or 80kW, so efficiency is extremely important to us.
 
2022-05-19 7:29:49 PM  

raygundan: Geotpf: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Geotpf: I think a large percentage of people don't want an electric car no matter what.  I think a large percentage of people might consider one, but only if it costs no more than a gas powered one (right now, that's not the case, even though you make it up in savings from gas and repairs).  Those two groups probably consist of at least 50% of the American motoring public.

I also worry about supply issues.  None of the Detroit 3 have demonstrated they can produce electric vehicles en masse, and most of the Japanese and some of the Europeans aren't much better.  Plus, keeping costs down when demand increases in all the exotic materials that make up an electric car will be difficult.

There is zero chance that either the car makers or governments are going to meet the various deadlines they are proposing for going all (or 50%, or whatever) electric.

Detroit will make damn sure they do not demonstrate an ability to make electric vehicles en masse, because once the dam breaks on electrification, the automakers and their symbiotic partner the dealers are going to suffer a financial bloodletting, as so much of their maintenance and service (/ spare parts) income and the dealer bullshiat fees go away.

They can probably keep the 'dealer / showroom' model going, and continue to hit customers up for 'Destination Charges' and the like, but even if they do, it won't be enough to replace the money the service bays bring in.

But there's a lot of customers out there these days who can live just fine without waiting breathlessly while the salesman "sees what my manager has to say".

This is mainly a problem for car dealers, not the car makers.

Like any dying industry, expect the car dealers to make it a problem for the car makers on their way out.  Hell, you can already see this happening today.


The F-150 lightning is finally out and we're seeing markups as high as $50K
 
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