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(Gizmodo)   The Great Salt Lake is evaporating, so lets pipe in some sea water from the Pacific Ocean, 600 miles away across the Sierra Nevadas   (gizmodo.com) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Utah, Salt Lake City, Great Salt Lake, Climate, Hydrology, Climate change, Weather, low levels of water  
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1422 clicks; posted to Business » and STEM » on 18 May 2022 at 10:57 PM (19 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-05-18 8:54:14 PM  
Combine it with desalination and lithium extraction. Use the hop over the mountains as pumped hydroelectric storage to absorb peaks in solar / wind generation.
 
2022-05-18 9:09:30 PM  
Utah has 5 coal-fired generating plants.  They also mine their own coal. and mining a ton of coal uses a ton of water. Coal plants need cooling water, lots of it.  Utah is overly reliant on fossil fuels and is busy causing the Great Salt Lake to dry up.  They need to go to renewables but they are too cheap to do it.  Their farmers are also pumping down all the groundwater basins, which will not end well.  'Sustainable' just isn't in their vocabulary.  They will crash hard after a few years more of drought.
 
2022-05-18 9:26:15 PM  
This is why Idaho (basically Utah Lite) would looove to absorb lots of Oregon. The water.

/and they'd likely ship it to Utah because, well, Mormons too.
 
2022-05-18 9:30:46 PM  

Chenopod: Utah has 5 coal-fired generating plants.  They also mine their own coal. and mining a ton of coal uses a ton of water. Coal plants need cooling water, lots of it.  Utah is overly reliant on fossil fuels and is busy causing the Great Salt Lake to dry up.  They need to go to renewables but they are too cheap to do it.  Their farmers are also pumping down all the groundwater basins, which will not end well.  'Sustainable' just isn't in their vocabulary.  They will crash hard after a few years more of drought.


This. I live here now. This is all true. Though I'm sensing some willingness to wake up. Maybe just the early stages, but at least a move in the right direction. 

Also:

Industries around the lake, like BRINEshrimp farming and mineral extraction, rake in some $1.3 billion each year, while lake tourism is also one of the state's top industries.

FTF reality. Regular shrimp can't live in that thing.

I do wonder if they pump in seawater of something else will find a way to live. Doubtful, but life finds a way, or whatever Goldblum says.

/Also, why does FARK gobble up the space after a correction like that? Even if I preview and add it back in?  I'm no computer genius, but that has to be easy to fix.
 
2022-05-18 9:31:50 PM  
I guess that's one solution to deal with the arsenic dust clouds coming off the dry lake bed instead of completely abandoning Salt lake City
 
2022-05-18 9:33:46 PM  

Three Crooked Squirrels: Chenopod: Utah has 5 coal-fired generating plants.  They also mine their own coal. and mining a ton of coal uses a ton of water. Coal plants need cooling water, lots of it.  Utah is overly reliant on fossil fuels and is busy causing the Great Salt Lake to dry up.  They need to go to renewables but they are too cheap to do it.  Their farmers are also pumping down all the groundwater basins, which will not end well.  'Sustainable' just isn't in their vocabulary.  They will crash hard after a few years more of drought.

This. I live here now. This is all true. Though I'm sensing some willingness to wake up. Maybe just the early stages, but at least a move in the right direction. 

Also:

Industries around the lake, like BRINEshrimp farming and mineral extraction, rake in some $1.3 billion each year, while lake tourism is also one of the state's top industries.

FTF reality. Regular shrimp can't live in that thing.

I do wonder if they pump in seawater of something else will find a way to live. Doubtful, but life finds a way, or whatever Goldblum says.

/Also, why does FARK gobble up the space after a correction like that? Even if I preview and add it back in?  I'm no computer genius, but that has to be easy to fix.


They make $1.3 billion off of sea monkeys???
 
2022-05-18 9:34:27 PM  
So when the American Southwest dies in a few years, you guys think the East Coast will take me back?   I'd head to the Pacific Northwest, but I really don't wanna ruin that place anymore than guys like me already have.
 
2022-05-18 9:37:12 PM  
There was a plan to divert Columbia River to California back in the day
 
2022-05-18 9:39:33 PM  

Circusdog320: There was a plan to divert Columbia River to California back in the day


If there isn't a concern about what might get wiped out on the way to California that is far more doable with some high energy devices.
 
2022-05-18 9:45:19 PM  

Shostie: Three Crooked Squirrels: Chenopod: Utah has 5 coal-fired generating plants.  They also mine their own coal. and mining a ton of coal uses a ton of water. Coal plants need cooling water, lots of it.  Utah is overly reliant on fossil fuels and is busy causing the Great Salt Lake to dry up.  They need to go to renewables but they are too cheap to do it.  Their farmers are also pumping down all the groundwater basins, which will not end well.  'Sustainable' just isn't in their vocabulary.  They will crash hard after a few years more of drought.

This. I live here now. This is all true. Though I'm sensing some willingness to wake up. Maybe just the early stages, but at least a move in the right direction. 

Also:

Industries around the lake, like BRINEshrimp farming and mineral extraction, rake in some $1.3 billion each year, while lake tourism is also one of the state's top industries.

FTF reality. Regular shrimp can't live in that thing.

I do wonder if they pump in seawater of something else will find a way to live. Doubtful, but life finds a way, or whatever Goldblum says.

/Also, why does FARK gobble up the space after a correction like that? Even if I preview and add it back in?  I'm no computer genius, but that has to be easy to fix.

They make $1.3 billion off of sea monkeys???


I think most of that comes from rescue operations. They save the sea monkeys with straight cash, then ship them out to kind and loving families that still mail order out of the back of Boy Scout catalogs.
 
2022-05-18 9:57:22 PM  
This is wild. When I was stationed at Hill in 85-86, the lake was flooded along with most of the salt flats.
 
2022-05-18 10:07:50 PM  
The Lake's plummeting levels seem to have sounded serious alarm bells in the Legislature. "We're dead serious about this," Commission co-chair Rep. Joel Ferry (R) told Fox 13 reporter Ben Winslow when asked if the commission was serious about studying a pipeline. "I mean, Ben, desperate times call for desperate measures and all options are on the table."

...except admitting humans are causing climate change, we need environmental protections against things like industry overuse because of it, or that maybe outlawing abortion/transgendered people isn't the most important legislative item.

Other than that, all options are on the table.
 
2022-05-18 10:14:05 PM  
Couldn't they just order sea water from Amazon. After all, there's free shipping.
 
2022-05-18 10:30:50 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-18 11:05:44 PM  

Ivo Shandor: Combine it with desalination and lithium extraction. Use the hop over the mountains as pumped hydroelectric storage to absorb peaks in solar / wind generation.


The extraction process for lithium wasn't commercially viable until this year. Salton Sea is the hot lithium mining operation. They can extract it directly from the ground
 
2022-05-18 11:06:34 PM  

eurotrader: I guess that's one solution to deal with the arsenic dust clouds coming off the dry lake bed instead of completely abandoning Salt lake City


Has serious thought been given to that alternative?
 
2022-05-18 11:15:22 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: eurotrader: I guess that's one solution to deal with the arsenic dust clouds coming off the dry lake bed instead of completely abandoning Salt lake City

Has serious thought been given to that alternative?


SLC was an abandoned area for at least thousands of years until a group that had already been chased out the rest of the US and settled there because no one else wanted to even go there and the military was busy so who knows for sure.
 
2022-05-18 11:17:54 PM  

Circusdog320: There was a plan to divert Columbia River to California back in the day


Let's just dust this perfectly cromulent idea off.
 
2022-05-18 11:19:54 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: eurotrader: I guess that's one solution to deal with the arsenic dust clouds coming off the dry lake bed instead of completely abandoning Salt lake City

Has serious thought been given to that alternative?


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-18 11:38:44 PM  
Let's live in the desert, they said.

It'll be fun, they said.
 
2022-05-18 11:39:32 PM  

Chenopod: Utah has 5 coal-fired generating plants.  They also mine their own coal. and mining a ton of coal uses a ton of water. Coal plants need cooling water, lots of it.  Utah is overly reliant on fossil fuels and is busy causing the Great Salt Lake to dry up.  They need to go to renewables but they are too cheap to do it.  Their farmers are also pumping down all the groundwater basins, which will not end well.  'Sustainable' just isn't in their vocabulary.  They will crash hard after a few years more of drought.


Good. Then they can all die and get their own personal planet that their fraud of a prophet promised them.

\only applies to Mormon Utahans, of course; the rest will just suffer
 
2022-05-18 11:40:06 PM  

Shostie: Three Crooked Squirrels: Chenopod: Utah has 5 coal-fired generating plants.  They also mine their own coal. and mining a ton of coal uses a ton of water. Coal plants need cooling water, lots of it.  Utah is overly reliant on fossil fuels and is busy causing the Great Salt Lake to dry up.  They need to go to renewables but they are too cheap to do it.  Their farmers are also pumping down all the groundwater basins, which will not end well.  'Sustainable' just isn't in their vocabulary.  They will crash hard after a few years more of drought.

This. I live here now. This is all true. Though I'm sensing some willingness to wake up. Maybe just the early stages, but at least a move in the right direction. 

Also:

Industries around the lake, like BRINEshrimp farming and mineral extraction, rake in some $1.3 billion each year, while lake tourism is also one of the state's top industries.

FTF reality. Regular shrimp can't live in that thing.

I do wonder if they pump in seawater of something else will find a way to live. Doubtful, but life finds a way, or whatever Goldblum says.

/Also, why does FARK gobble up the space after a correction like that? Even if I preview and add it back in?  I'm no computer genius, but that has to be easy to fix.

They make $1.3 billion off of sea monkeys???


They steal the jewels from their crowns
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-18 11:41:43 PM  

Three Crooked Squirrels: Chenopod: Utah has 5 coal-fired generating plants.  They also mine their own coal. and mining a ton of coal uses a ton of water. Coal plants need cooling water, lots of it.  Utah is overly reliant on fossil fuels and is busy causing the Great Salt Lake to dry up.  They need to go to renewables but they are too cheap to do it.  Their farmers are also pumping down all the groundwater basins, which will not end well.  'Sustainable' just isn't in their vocabulary.  They will crash hard after a few years more of drought.

This. I live here now. This is all true. Though I'm sensing some willingness to wake up. Maybe just the early stages, but at least a move in the right direction. 

Also:

Industries around the lake, like BRINEshrimp farming and mineral extraction, rake in some $1.3 billion each year, while lake tourism is also one of the state's top industries.

FTF reality. Regular shrimp can't live in that thing.

I do wonder if they pump in seawater of something else will find a way to live. Doubtful, but life finds a way, or whatever Goldblum says.

/Also, why does FARK gobble up the space after a correction like that? Even if I preview and add it back in?  I'm no computer genius, but that has to be easy to fix.


Put a placeholder letter where you want the whitespace to be, then add in the text you want to be formatted differently, then remove the placeholder letter. That might work.
 
2022-05-18 11:42:15 PM  

kudayta: So when the American Southwest dies in a few years, you guys think the East Coast will take me back?   I'd head to the Pacific Northwest, but I really don't wanna ruin that place anymore than guys like me already have.


The PN's soon going to be just a constant year-round forest fire.
 
2022-05-18 11:45:05 PM  

The Bestest: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: eurotrader: I guess that's one solution to deal with the arsenic dust clouds coming off the dry lake bed instead of completely abandoning Salt lake City

Has serious thought been given to that alternative?

[Fark user image image 623x350]


They never did cover what happened to the Mormons after that, even in the books AFAIK.
 
2022-05-18 11:45:48 PM  

chitownmike: Shostie: Three Crooked Squirrels: Chenopod: Utah has 5 coal-fired generating plants.  They also mine their own coal. and mining a ton of coal uses a ton of water. Coal plants need cooling water, lots of it.  Utah is overly reliant on fossil fuels and is busy causing the Great Salt Lake to dry up.  They need to go to renewables but they are too cheap to do it.  Their farmers are also pumping down all the groundwater basins, which will not end well.  'Sustainable' just isn't in their vocabulary.  They will crash hard after a few years more of drought.

This. I live here now. This is all true. Though I'm sensing some willingness to wake up. Maybe just the early stages, but at least a move in the right direction. 

Also:

Industries around the lake, like BRINEshrimp farming and mineral extraction, rake in some $1.3 billion each year, while lake tourism is also one of the state's top industries.

FTF reality. Regular shrimp can't live in that thing.

I do wonder if they pump in seawater of something else will find a way to live. Doubtful, but life finds a way, or whatever Goldblum says.

/Also, why does FARK gobble up the space after a correction like that? Even if I preview and add it back in?  I'm no computer genius, but that has to be easy to fix.

They make $1.3 billion off of sea monkeys???

They steal the jewels from their crowns[Fark user image image 425x425]


Created by a neo-Nazi.
 
2022-05-18 11:48:12 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: The Bestest: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: eurotrader: I guess that's one solution to deal with the arsenic dust clouds coming off the dry lake bed instead of completely abandoning Salt lake City

Has serious thought been given to that alternative?

[Fark user image image 623x350]

They never did cover what happened to the Mormons after that, even in the books AFAIK.


They just haven't written that part yet
 
2022-05-18 11:50:50 PM  
California -- "Sure, but you're going to have to take the Mormons with the water."

/ They are everywhere in California and they need to go home.
 
2022-05-19 12:01:30 AM  

Ivo Shandor: Combine it with desalination and lithium extraction. Use the hop over the mountains as pumped hydroelectric storage to absorb peaks in solar / wind generation.


Hydroelectric storage would only work if, you know, the water could flow back to the pacific ocean when the power is needed.  This, like all Republican ideas, is a pile of horse manure.
 
2022-05-19 12:01:31 AM  

Shostie: They make $1.3 billion off of sea monkeys???


They're probably used as dietary supplements in the US.

/It's actually a fish food supplement, because our fish eat better than people in Afghanistan.
 
2022-05-19 12:06:43 AM  

bekaye: Couldn't they just order sea water from Amazon. After all, there's free shipping.


Amazon is fresh water.  That's no good for a salt lake.  Everybody knows that.
 
2022-05-19 12:06:44 AM  

hlehmann: Ivo Shandor: Combine it with desalination and lithium extraction. Use the hop over the mountains as pumped hydroelectric storage to absorb peaks in solar / wind generation.

Hydroelectric storage would only work if, you know, the water could flow back to the pacific ocean when the power is needed.  This, like all Republican ideas, is a pile of horse manure.


Presumably there's some elevation drop on the other side of the mountain. But even if not, pumping water uphill into a lake is a decent way to take advantage of excess electrical power.
 
2022-05-19 12:10:27 AM  

Ivo Shandor: hlehmann: Ivo Shandor: Combine it with desalination and lithium extraction. Use the hop over the mountains as pumped hydroelectric storage to absorb peaks in solar / wind generation.

Hydroelectric storage would only work if, you know, the water could flow back to the pacific ocean when the power is needed.  This, like all Republican ideas, is a pile of horse manure.

Presumably there's some elevation drop on the other side of the mountain. But even if not, pumping water uphill into a lake is a decent way to take advantage of excess electrical power.



"Pumping water 600 miles over mountains is a decent way to use electricity generated by burning coal and oil"

See how stupid that sounds? Or maybe you don't.


Not sure where you think that "excess" electricity is.
 
2022-05-19 12:13:02 AM  
One of my favorite Don Rickles insults:

"Why don't you go back to Utah and suck salt?"
 
2022-05-19 12:13:46 AM  

Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: Ivo Shandor: hlehmann: Ivo Shandor: Combine it with desalination and lithium extraction. Use the hop over the mountains as pumped hydroelectric storage to absorb peaks in solar / wind generation.

Hydroelectric storage would only work if, you know, the water could flow back to the pacific ocean when the power is needed.  This, like all Republican ideas, is a pile of horse manure.

Presumably there's some elevation drop on the other side of the mountain. But even if not, pumping water uphill into a lake is a decent way to take advantage of excess electrical power.


"Pumping water 600 miles over mountains is a decent way to use electricity generated by burning coal and oil"

See how stupid that sounds? Or maybe you don't.


Not sure where you think that "excess" electricity is.


Solar / wind curtailment, as I said in the boobies.
 
2022-05-19 12:14:41 AM  
It would be cheaper to build a desal plant in SoCal so Utah could exchange an equal volume of Colorado River water for themselves.
 
2022-05-19 12:22:28 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: bekaye: Couldn't they just order sea water from Amazon. After all, there's free shipping.

Amazon is fresh water.  That's no good for a salt lake.  Everybody knows that.


It's a salt lake, pumping sea water in will make it saltier. Unless they want more salt.
 
2022-05-19 12:24:33 AM  
Good lord, pumping in ocean water? Sure, morons, you go right ahead and do this stupid thing. You'll have enough salt to last forever!
 
2022-05-19 12:24:43 AM  

wildcardjack: Marcus Aurelius: bekaye: Couldn't they just order sea water from Amazon. After all, there's free shipping.

Amazon is fresh water.  That's no good for a salt lake.  Everybody knows that.

It's a salt lake, pumping sea water in will make it saltier. Unless they want more salt.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-19 12:25:27 AM  

hlehmann: Ivo Shandor: Combine it with desalination and lithium extraction. Use the hop over the mountains as pumped hydroelectric storage to absorb peaks in solar / wind generation.

Hydroelectric storage would only work if, you know, the water could flow back to the pacific ocean when the power is needed.  This, like all Republican ideas, is a pile of horse manure.


I literally just ran some quick "back of the napkin" math...
/A university engineering course ran the numbers on lift power for water. To lift one acre foot of water one foot takes 2 kilowatt hours of power assuming 50% pump and transport efficiency.

//SLC is over 4200 ft elevation. That's 8400 kWh per acre foot. Utah's power rate was 0.10$/kWh in February. $840 per acre foot of water JUST for power to run the pumps.


///Great salt lake is 1 million acres, so to raise the water level one foot (temporarily!) would require power costs of $840,000,000 just to lift the water from sea level to SLC.

//// Assuming the pipelines, pumps, right of ways and bureaucracy are already in place
 
2022-05-19 12:26:40 AM  

wildcardjack: Marcus Aurelius: bekaye: Couldn't they just order sea water from Amazon. After all, there's free shipping.

Amazon is fresh water.  That's no good for a salt lake.  Everybody knows that.

It's a salt lake, pumping sea water in will make it saltier. Unless they want more salt.


Sea water is considerably less salty than the lake, which is why desalination brine would also be an option to refill it.

Wikipedia says its salinity varies from 5% to 27%, vs. 3.5% for the ocean.
 
2022-05-19 12:29:13 AM  
""I mean, Ben, desperate times call for desperate measures and all options are on the table."

I assume "all options" excludes any measures to address climate change beyond thoughts and prayers, along with any measures to severely restrict water use?
 
2022-05-19 12:30:44 AM  
Pumping water uphill into a holding tank when power is cheap, and then letting gravity pull the water down through turbines when power is expensive has been talked about a lot.

I don't know how well it would work, or if anyone is doing it.  It seems plausible though, especially paired with solar.  If you can generate a bunch of solar power during the day, you use some of that power to pump water uphill, then at night the water can run downhill to create power.

Piping ocean water to SLC is completely stupid though.  I read an article one time advocating for pumping water from the Mississippi to Arizona.  That was dumb as shiat too.
 
2022-05-19 12:34:40 AM  
I was thinking awhile ago that Canada should build its pipeline to the United States. In fact, it should build several of them. But not oil pipelines -- water pipelines. To the arid west.

Canada has 20% of the world's freshwater. The country looks big on a map, but most of it is lakes (think Minnesota, but scaled up like 90 times). How much of an engineering hurdle would it be to harness this massive reservoir and sell/distribute it to our thirsty cousins down south? Just thinking out loud here.

cdn.watercanada.netView Full Size
 
2022-05-19 12:35:52 AM  

Holy Carp: Pumping water uphill into a holding tank when power is cheap, and then letting gravity pull the water down through turbines when power is expensive has been talked about a lot.

I don't know how well it would work, or if anyone is doing it.  It seems plausible though, especially paired with solar.  If you can generate a bunch of solar power during the day, you use some of that power to pump water uphill, then at night the water can run downhill to create power.

Piping ocean water to SLC is completely stupid though.  I read an article one time advocating for pumping water from the Mississippi to Arizona.  That was dumb as shiat too.


Eventually, many parts of the world will have to figure out some way to replace the water which no longer flows there naturally. Or abandon entire cities, lose large areas of farmland, etc. Pumping water over long distances might turn out to be the least-bad option.
 
2022-05-19 12:41:17 AM  

Ivo Shandor: Combine it with desalination and lithium extraction. Use the hop over the mountains as pumped hydroelectric storage to absorb peaks in solar / wind generation.


At a glance, you're looking to pump up 4000 feet. If you follow I-80, it looks relatively shallow down to Sacramento. I don't know if there's free pumped hydro on the direct route.
 
2022-05-19 12:42:26 AM  

chitownmike: Tyrone Slothrop: The Bestest: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: eurotrader: I guess that's one solution to deal with the arsenic dust clouds coming off the dry lake bed instead of completely abandoning Salt lake City

Has serious thought been given to that alternative?

[Fark user image image 623x350]

They never did cover what happened to the Mormons after that, even in the books AFAIK.

They just haven't written that part yet


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-19 12:54:54 AM  

wildcardjack: Ivo Shandor: Combine it with desalination and lithium extraction. Use the hop over the mountains as pumped hydroelectric storage to absorb peaks in solar / wind generation.

At a glance, you're looking to pump up 4000 feet. If you follow I-80, it looks relatively shallow down to Sacramento. I don't know if there's free pumped hydro on the direct route.


Sacramento's elevation is about 20 feet above sea level. Donner Summit on I-80 (about 80 miles East) is 7200 feet.
 
2022-05-19 1:08:29 AM  

chitownmike: Shostie: Three Crooked Squirrels: Chenopod: Utah has 5 coal-fired generating plants.  They also mine their own coal. and mining a ton of coal uses a ton of water. Coal plants need cooling water, lots of it.  Utah is overly reliant on fossil fuels and is busy causing the Great Salt Lake to dry up.  They need to go to renewables but they are too cheap to do it.  Their farmers are also pumping down all the groundwater basins, which will not end well.  'Sustainable' just isn't in their vocabulary.  They will crash hard after a few years more of drought.

This. I live here now. This is all true. Though I'm sensing some willingness to wake up. Maybe just the early stages, but at least a move in the right direction. 

Also:

Industries around the lake, like BRINEshrimp farming and mineral extraction, rake in some $1.3 billion each year, while lake tourism is also one of the state's top industries.

FTF reality. Regular shrimp can't live in that thing.

I do wonder if they pump in seawater of something else will find a way to live. Doubtful, but life finds a way, or whatever Goldblum says.

/Also, why does FARK gobble up the space after a correction like that? Even if I preview and add it back in?  I'm no computer genius, but that has to be easy to fix.

They make $1.3 billion off of sea monkeys???

They steal the jewels from their crowns[Fark user image 425x425]


So....

1. Add water
2. Life!
3.???
4. Grow!

I thought 4 was always profit.
 
2022-05-19 1:10:45 AM  

Dinjiin: It would be cheaper to build a desal plant in SoCal so Utah could exchange an equal volume of Colorado River water for themselves.


The proposed Huntington Beach desalination plant, which was projected to cost $1.4 billion, would be capable of producing about 200,000 acre-feet a year, and cost $1800/acre-foot, of which about half is amortized capital investment and the other half operations cost. The Great Salt Lake is estimated to have lost about 8 million acre-feet of water since it was last at its historical average level, 35 years ago - so to restore its volume over 35 years they'd have to fund about two desalination plants (the first to offset the decline, the second to raise its level) - call it $800 million / year, about 10% of the state's budget (excluding federal transfers).
 
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