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(AP News)   Diversity on corporate boards is a Good Thing. Mandating it, however, is unconstitutional   (apnews.com) divider line
    More: Sad, Public company, Board of directors, Law, United States, Corporation, Form 10-K, California's landmark law, corporate boards  
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584 clicks; posted to Business » on 17 May 2022 at 5:35 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-05-17 5:39:39 AM  
Its almost like the best way for applications to be done would be with no identifying information at all and just a work history
 
2022-05-17 5:47:13 AM  
I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.
 
2022-05-17 5:49:19 AM  

lifeslammer: Its almost like the best way for applications to be done would be with no identifying information at all and just a work history


But then, how would they hire all their buddies?
 
2022-05-17 5:58:19 AM  

SiotMoc: lifeslammer: Its almost like the best way for applications to be done would be with no identifying information at all and just a work history

But then, how would they hire all their buddies?


Well we still need plenty of janitors and window washers
 
2022-05-17 6:31:56 AM  

RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.


Looking forward to you and your ilk getting replaced.
 
2022-05-17 7:00:08 AM  
I don't really see why this needs the Sad tag. Mandating personnel makeup is not a great thing.
Also do you not realize that women can be just as shiatty as a room full of men? Or would you prefer to have your company forcibly staffed with Elizabeth Holmes, Carly Fiorina, and Kelly Loeffler simply because they're females and you're mandated to fill that quota?

Yay women and all that but there needs to be more involved than "uterus=yes" to fill a job position. As others have mentioned we really need a stripped CV to review for most hiring practices. Can't disqualify a candidate if you don't know age, gender, race, or disability status. Maybe have HR go through the management-approved applicants with a full CV to fill quotas if absolutely necessary but I'd still rather not fill a position with an unqualified candidate simply because they ticked some diversity boxes.
 
2022-05-17 7:03:39 AM  
Interesting so far there doesn't seem to be much diversity in assumptions in this thread. Very much older white guy thought patterns.

And we wonder what the value of diversity is. Hmm.
 
2022-05-17 7:14:28 AM  

RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.


Try reading a history book. You could start by learning about decision-making leading to the Bay of Pigs
 
2022-05-17 7:25:24 AM  

RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.


What in the actilual fark is wrong with you?
 
2022-05-17 7:29:39 AM  

NuclearPenguins: RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.

Looking forward to you and your ilk getting replaced.


I hope it's soon too. I don't want to live to see the inevitable societal collapse as competence is replaced by tokenism.

I mean it should be farking obvious that this diversity nonsense is horseshiat. This law in particular didn't even require women be appointed just someone that identified as a woman. Essentially they are claiming that a man that says he's a woman is bringing exactly the same "diversity" of experience as a woman. If that's the bar then diversity is what? A hairstyle? The clothes somebody wears? Lipstick? In effect this means  women are of no actual value beyond appearance and if that's the case what is the point and what value does that bring to a board?

Diversity for the sake of diversity is totally worthless.
 
2022-05-17 8:01:18 AM  
What about when they put the same people of color on multiple boards just to say they "have one of those people"?

Happens all the time.
 
2022-05-17 8:17:38 AM  

raerae1980: RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.

What in the actilual fark is wrong with you?


Fear of Replacement.
 
2022-05-17 8:18:25 AM  

RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.


Just picture a scenario where it would be nice to have diverse opinions but you can't because everyone is a cookie cutter copy of each other
 
2022-05-17 8:20:08 AM  

raerae1980: RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.

What in the actilual fark is wrong with you?


Lack of tact and nuance, but that is not exactly your problem. The existence of people like Lauren Boebert and MTG and Elise Stefanek and whatnot ought to make it reasonably obvious that being a woman is not the same as not being a shiat person. So the entire intended point behind the law is a lie, and then you're just left with illegal discrimination.
 
2022-05-17 8:24:13 AM  

Meatsim1: RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.

Just picture a scenario where it would be nice to have diverse opinions but you can't because everyone is a cookie cutter copy of each other


When you're getting to the C suite and board levels of corporate governance, work history barely registers as a credential. Looking at blind work histories isn't going to fly. That is entirely a "who you know" situation, in exactly the same way that the upper ranks of NFL coaching and front office work are about who you know. And that's intentional, because the folks up there trust familiar quantities far more than unfamiliar ones. People are just like that.
 
2022-05-17 8:36:27 AM  
Diversity Diversity diversity!

All I hear about is diversity

When is it Ability's turn?
 
2022-05-17 8:40:35 AM  

vudukungfu: Diversity Diversity diversity!

All I hear about is diversity

When is it Ability's turn?


We tried that with monoculture crops that outperformed others.  I assume you know how that turned out.
 
2022-05-17 8:45:06 AM  
It is unconstitutional...
 
2022-05-17 8:48:04 AM  

American-Irish eyes: It is unconstitutional...


lol.

You'll get over it.
 
2022-05-17 8:52:33 AM  

American-Irish eyes: It is unconstitutional...


That word doesn't have any value anymore.  Unconstitutional just means an elite group of oathbreakers doesn't like something.
 
2022-05-17 9:00:43 AM  

NuclearPenguins: American-Irish eyes: It is unconstitutional...

lol.

You'll get over it.


I totally support the idea of it.... but go ahead and look at the non-white non-male people they appoint to their boards... most of them have zero connection to the communities that you'd want to have a voice.

Don't care about the constitutionality of it at all... but in order for it to actually serve the purpose of representation, you have to have people who actually represent those groups you are trying to empower and not just line their own pockets.

Better to have it than not, but don't for a minute thing a diversified board won't still keep corporate profit ahead of any other goal other people would like them to follow.

Those days of responsible corporate citizen are mostly dead.
 
2022-05-17 9:01:02 AM  

RTOGUY: I hope it's soon too. I don't want to live to see the inevitable societal collapse as competence is replaced by tokenism.

I mean it should be farking obvious that this diversity nonsense is horseshiat. This law in particular didn't even require women be appointed just someone that identified as a woman. Essentially they are claiming that a man that says he's a woman is bringing exactly the same "diversity" of experience as a woman. If that's the bar then diversity is what? A hairstyle? The clothes somebody wears? Lipstick? In effect this means  women are of no actual value beyond appearance and if that's the case what is the point and what value does that bring to a board?



Your opinion only has merit if you operate under the assumption that the only candidates with the requisite knowledge, experience, or competency are white males.  Which is patently false but goes to show how latent bigotry blinds you.
 
2022-05-17 9:06:04 AM  

NewportBarGuy: NuclearPenguins: American-Irish eyes: It is unconstitutional...

lol.

You'll get over it.

I totally support the idea of it.... but go ahead and look at the non-white non-male people they appoint to their boards... most of them have zero connection to the communities that you'd want to have a voice.

Don't care about the constitutionality of it at all... but in order for it to actually serve the purpose of representation, you have to have people who actually represent those groups you are trying to empower and not just line their own pockets.

Better to have it than not, but don't for a minute thing a diversified board won't still keep corporate profit ahead of any other goal other people would like them to follow.

Those days of responsible corporate citizen are mostly dead.


I fully believe that women and minorities can be just as greedy and corrupt as any white man, if just given the chance.
 
2022-05-17 9:06:12 AM  

pdieten: Meatsim1: RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.

Just picture a scenario where it would be nice to have diverse opinions but you can't because everyone is a cookie cutter copy of each other

When you're getting to the C suite and board levels of corporate governance, work history barely registers as a credential. Looking at blind work histories isn't going to fly. That is entirely a "who you know" situation, in exactly the same way that the upper ranks of NFL coaching and front office work are about who you know. And that's intentional, because the folks up there trust familiar quantities far more than unfamiliar ones. People are just like that.


I thought we were talking about a scenario when diversity has inherent value, not explaining how corporations or the NFL are run like old boy clubs.

Yes they are run like that but that wasn't the question
 
2022-05-17 9:10:22 AM  
Finally, a judge that isn't a liberal sycophant.

This needs to be appealed. It needs to go to SCOTUS, where it will be tossed out like the trash biased rule it is.
 
2022-05-17 9:11:17 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: I fully believe that women and minorities can be just as greedy and corrupt as any white man, if just given the chance.


LOL

Goddamn right!

If there's one thing this does is at least confirm that money corrupts all of us. Might as well have different shades of people swim in the same pool of money and have it look better. heh...
 
2022-05-17 9:12:54 AM  

zgrizz: Finally, a judge that isn't a liberal sycophant.

This needs to be appealed. It needs to go to SCOTUS, where it will be tossed out like the trash biased rule it is.


Die mad about it. :)
 
2022-05-17 9:13:25 AM  

JK47: RTOGUY: I hope it's soon too. I don't want to live to see the inevitable societal collapse as competence is replaced by tokenism.

I mean it should be farking obvious that this diversity nonsense is horseshiat. This law in particular didn't even require women be appointed just someone that identified as a woman. Essentially they are claiming that a man that says he's a woman is bringing exactly the same "diversity" of experience as a woman. If that's the bar then diversity is what? A hairstyle? The clothes somebody wears? Lipstick? In effect this means  women are of no actual value beyond appearance and if that's the case what is the point and what value does that bring to a board?


Your opinion only has merit if you operate under the assumption that the only candidates with the requisite knowledge, experience, or competency are white males.  Which is patently false but goes to show how latent bigotry blinds you.


Yeah but yours only has merit under the assumption that women can't be just as insular-minded, incompetent, or venal as men. Which, simple observation ought to make the reality of that notion pretty clear.

Companies and boards that value diversity in thought will find it no matter which boxes the candidates check. Companies and boards that don't value diversity in thought will avoid it no matter which boxes the candidates check. If you know an actual effective method to turn insular people broad-minded - in spirit, not just giving the right answers on a test, and without breaking any laws - then you need to open a consultancy, because there will be great demand for your services.
 
2022-05-17 9:23:50 AM  

pdieten: Yeah but yours only has merit under the assumption that women can't be just as insular-minded, incompetent, or venal as men. Which, simple observation ought to make the reality of that notion pretty clear.


I think that's unfair - women have the capacity to be insular-minded, incompetent, and venal in entirely NEW ways. (White) Men do not encompass the sum-total of the human experience, and it's naive or narcissistic to think that either side of the gender spectrum has a monopoly on (or even a full understanding of) humankind's capacity for barbarity.

// and all else being equal, wouldn't you rather have someone with SOMETHING different to offer the board?
// something other than sycophancy, nepotism, groupthink, and the same private HS-private college-country club network pipeline to the job, for example
 
2022-05-17 9:38:55 AM  

lifeslammer: Its almost like the best way for applications to be done would be with no identifying information at all and just a work history


You really don't know how corporate boards work if you think ability, experience, and knowledge are the sole criteria for selecting people.
 
2022-05-17 9:39:32 AM  

Meatsim1: pdieten: Meatsim1: RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.

Just picture a scenario where it would be nice to have diverse opinions but you can't because everyone is a cookie cutter copy of each other

When you're getting to the C suite and board levels of corporate governance, work history barely registers as a credential. Looking at blind work histories isn't going to fly. That is entirely a "who you know" situation, in exactly the same way that the upper ranks of NFL coaching and front office work are about who you know. And that's intentional, because the folks up there trust familiar quantities far more than unfamiliar ones. People are just like that.

I thought we were talking about a scenario when diversity has inherent value, not explaining how corporations or the NFL are run like old boy clubs.


Well, it does, except that just making laws to force boards to take on women isn't the most apt tool for the job. It doesn't actually prove to those who don't value diversity that diversity has inherent value, it just means that boards that don't value diversity are going to have to restrict their shortlist to women who also don't value diversity. It's not immediately clear to me why that is an improvement, irrespective of

Dr Dreidel: women have the capacity to be insular-minded, incompetent, and venal in entirely NEW ways.

 
2022-05-17 9:44:34 AM  

Dr Dreidel: // something other than sycophancy, nepotism, groupthink, and the same private HS-private college-country club network pipeline to the job, for example


Where do you think they are finding women for the roles? Just picking them at random off the street?
 
2022-05-17 9:48:11 AM  

Meatsim1: RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.

Just picture a scenario where it would be nice to have diverse opinions but you can't because everyone is a cookie cutter copy of each other


I'm all for diversity but just because you put people of different genders or ethnicities on a corporate board doesn't mean they still won't be cookie cutter copies of each other. You don't tend to get very high in the corporate world without being a yes man or yes woman or yes person.
 
2022-05-17 9:55:19 AM  

pdieten: Meatsim1: pdieten: Meatsim1: RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.

Just picture a scenario where it would be nice to have diverse opinions but you can't because everyone is a cookie cutter copy of each other

When you're getting to the C suite and board levels of corporate governance, work history barely registers as a credential. Looking at blind work histories isn't going to fly. That is entirely a "who you know" situation, in exactly the same way that the upper ranks of NFL coaching and front office work are about who you know. And that's intentional, because the folks up there trust familiar quantities far more than unfamiliar ones. People are just like that.

I thought we were talking about a scenario when diversity has inherent value, not explaining how corporations or the NFL are run like old boy clubs.

Well, it does, except that just making laws to force boards to take on women isn't the most apt tool for the job. It doesn't actually prove to those who don't value diversity that diversity has inherent value, it just means that boards that don't value diversity are going to have to restrict their shortlist to women who also don't value diversity. It's not immediately clear to me why that is an improvement, irrespective of


I never said making laws was the best tool or even a tool I support. I just wanted to point out that having diversity can be inherently valuable in a situation where you need diverse opinions and don't want 10 people giving you the same 1 answer.

I'm not even really talking about corporate boards either, just pointing out to that one guy that diversity can be inherently valuable
 
2022-05-17 9:57:31 AM  

RTOGUY: Dr Dreidel: // something other than sycophancy, nepotism, groupthink, and the same private HS-private college-country club network pipeline to the job, for example

Where do you think they are finding women for the roles? Just picking them at random off the street?


Again - all else being equal, I think even the slight difference in [genetics/morphology/social interactions/whateverthefark gender is] would move the needle more towards the historically-un(der)represented candidate. Doing things the way you've always done them (or by the same people) will get you the same results, and the MBAs tell me that's bad to keep a business growing.

Yeah, you don't get to be a board member without (educational) pedigree and working the right network - but consider that the rare (thankfully less so) woman who can do that is doing it backwards and in high heels. That's gumption and moxie and those other 1920s words that modern businesses claim to like, right? Surely there isn't some other reason they're not hiring from these historically-un(der)represented groups?

// like RBG said about an all-woman SCOTUS: we've had all men and the country survived*
// I realize that a diversity mandate is a slightly different beast, but you're crazy if you don't think an "outside" perspective is valuable on its own
 
2022-05-17 10:31:07 AM  

RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.


most things of real value cannot be calculated or described with symbols like this:
$

So if you fail to perceive a value somewhere/in something, it might be your POV on what has value in the first place.
 
2022-05-17 11:21:11 AM  

PvtStash: RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.

most things of real value cannot be calculated or described with symbols like this:
$

So if you fail to perceive a value somewhere/in something, it might be your POV on what has value in the first place.


Private business is not the place for your social engineering experiment.  If you are going to mandate something by law and punish non-compliance with a crushing $200,000 fine you should be required to explain and justify the law and the subsequent fines.
 
2022-05-17 11:33:05 AM  

RTOGUY: PvtStash: RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.

most things of real value cannot be calculated or described with symbols like this:
$

So if you fail to perceive a value somewhere/in something, it might be your POV on what has value in the first place.

Private business is not the place for your social engineering experiment.  If you are going to mandate something by law and punish non-compliance with a crushing $200,000 fine you should be required to explain and justify the law and the subsequent fines.


Don't you have a klan rally you could be participating in instead of ruining Fark with your continued existence?

The nerve you people have by continuing to draw breath.
 
2022-05-17 12:02:46 PM  

RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.


It stops a clique of rich white guys at the top handing out jobs to all their demographically similar friends, and keeping talent from other communities out of top jobs through a combination of nepotism and greed, ultimately reversing the stagnation that such a situation leads to.
 
2022-05-17 12:26:56 PM  

Mr. Tweedy: Meatsim1: RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.

Just picture a scenario where it would be nice to have diverse opinions but you can't because everyone is a cookie cutter copy of each other

I'm all for diversity but just because you put people of different genders or ethnicities on a corporate board doesn't mean they still won't be cookie cutter copies of each other. You don't tend to get very high in the corporate world without being a yes man or yes woman or yes person.


Well, we'll never know if we keep not hiring anyone that isn't a plus one for the white man gang
 
2022-05-17 12:37:40 PM  
Pointless fighting, we are all going to replaced by robots in the end anyway.
 
2022-05-17 12:53:53 PM  
and Trump wins again
 
2022-05-17 2:00:16 PM  
Seriously this indicates how much we need diversity with the amount of people who start from the natural unquestioned assumption that the white guy got there on his own merits as "the most qualified candidate" and that any woman or minority did not.
 
2022-05-17 2:19:36 PM  

Fano: Seriously this indicates how much we need diversity with the amount of people who start from the natural unquestioned assumption that the white guy got there on his own merits as "the most qualified candidate" and that any woman or minority did not.


The merit at this level is "I know him from {my college frat | interning at his company | my golf club | my mentor recommended him | some other relationship} and he's not a complete farkwit." That's pretty much it.

A resume and list of references who aren't known to the employer might be good enough for an entry level job but at the top there have to be pre-established trust relationships. People are going to bring in those who they are comfortable with. Some people are comfortable with diversity. And some are only comfortable with others who are like them. You're not going to be able to write a law that actually overcomes that. It would be effective as the Rooney Rule. It will be circumvented. It's a personality thing, and the decision makers at any given company have to decide how they want the company to be run.
 
2022-05-17 2:31:43 PM  

RTOGUY: I have yet to see any evidence that diversity in and of itself is of any actual value.


Oh, here let me assist, because there have been studies that prove diversity has value.  I say this a rich white male who researches such things because I want to make more money (because eff you, I want more money, that's why).  I am an accredited investor who looks for diversity.

How do the financial outcomes of homogeneous partnerships compare with those of diverse collaborations? The difference is dramatic. Along all dimensions measured, the more similar the investment partners, the lower their investments' performance. For example, the success rate of acquisitions and IPOs was 11.5% lower, on average, for investments by partners with shared school backgrounds than for those by partners from different schools. The effect of shared ethnicity was even stronger, reducing an investment's comparative success rate by 26.4% to 32.2%.
https://hbr.org/2018/07/the-other-diversity-dividend

companies in the top quartile for gender diversity on their executive teams were 15 percent more likely to experience above-average profitability than companies in the fourth quartile.
https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/delivering-through-diversity

The biggest takeaway we found is a strong and statistically significant correlation between the diversity of management teams and overall innovation. Companies that reported above-average diversity on their management teams also reported innovation revenue that was 19 percentage points higher than that of companies with below-average leadership diversity-45% of total revenue versus just 26%.
https://www.bcg.com/en-us/publications/2018/how-diverse-leadership-teams-boost-innovation
Fark user imageView Full Size

/There's more, but you should do your own research
 
2022-05-17 2:47:09 PM  
/I say this as a rich

FTFM
 
2022-05-17 3:40:54 PM  

pdieten: A resume and list of references who aren't known to the employer might be good enough for an entry level job but at the top there have to be pre-established trust relationships. People are going to bring in those who they are comfortable with. Some people are comfortable with diversity. And some are only comfortable with others who are like them. You're not going to be able to write a law that actually overcomes that. It would be effective as the Rooney Rule. It will be circumvented. It's a personality thing, and the decision makers at any given company have to decide how they want the company to be run.


just last year we had a search for a management position (next step up for me). An internal search. As in, only people in the company can apply for it. That means you already have a list of everyone you can choose from.

I apply and make it as a finalist along with two other people. After a week of several interviews, a presentation, etc. None of us were selected by the one person who had the final say. Said person skipped out on my interview parts with them.

Again, an internal search...You knew everyone who would be eligible to apply for the position and still chose no one.

Either that person's favored candidate didn't get picked or it was a colossal waste of everyone's time.

/that person was afraid I would fall victim of the Peter Principle...rich from someone who gets promoted up to interim something every two years with retirements.
 
2022-05-17 5:38:05 PM  

Dr.Fey: Oh, here let me assist, because there have been studies that prove diversity has value.  I say this a rich white male who researches such things because I want to make more money (because eff you, I want more money, that's why).  I am an accredited investor who looks for diversity.


Question for you, Doc.  If someone ticks a lot of diversity boxes (say, immigrant woman of color) and their work in the community has led to nonprofits (library, hospital, united way) beating down their door to get their "unique diverse global voice" onto pro-bono boards... how do they make the leap onto start-up or corporate boards?
 
2022-05-17 8:41:51 PM  

dbirchall: Dr.Fey: Oh, here let me assist, because there have been studies that prove diversity has value.  I say this a rich white male who researches such things because I want to make more money (because eff you, I want more money, that's why).  I am an accredited investor who looks for diversity.

Question for you, Doc.  If someone ticks a lot of diversity boxes (say, immigrant woman of color) and their work in the community has led to nonprofits (library, hospital, united way) beating down their door to get their "unique diverse global voice" onto pro-bono boards... how do they make the leap onto start-up or corporate boards?


Not my wheelhouse.  I don't always know how woman founders or minority board members or trans private equity investors get to where they are.  I just direct my dollars after-the-fact.  I'm an agent of change, but not that early in the process.  I'm just voting with my dollars, so to speak.

/if I misunderstood your question, let me know
 
2022-05-17 9:07:41 PM  
Yes, mandating any race, religion, or gender be hired is discrimination, sorry, we have to stop trying to make words mean different things based on those factors. If we can't deny person A a job based on those things, we also can't specifically give people jobs based on those criteria.
 
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