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(NPR)   U.S. warns of discrimination in using artificial intelligence to screen job candidates. So blame HAL 9000, not the fact that you're 59 and asking for a salary that's not a 50% pay cut   (npr.org) divider line
    More: Creepy, Artificial intelligence, Employment, United States Department of Justice, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, Discrimination, hiring tools, Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, new job candidates  
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1184 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 13 May 2022 at 10:50 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-05-13 9:34:29 AM  
If you list having AE-35 repair experience, DO NOT go outside, ever.
 
2022-05-13 9:38:56 AM  
Or you could blame the CEO's that direct the program specification.
 
2022-05-13 10:00:43 AM  
AI has been screening job candidates for a long time, at least the last decade. Mostly just looking for keywords and phrases, though.

Like most models, though, there will be folks who are highly competent at gaming the system (but not particularly good at anything else) who receive the first and most focused attention.

We don't need a world populated by Instagram-like vapid models who can parrot the right phrases and "look the part" only to become another lump in the department carried along the few people who actually get things done. Meanwhile, the awkward, grumpy people, whose brains have been battle-scarred by getting the job done, don't naturally shine for delusional managers who think "fresh energy" is what their dysfunctional business segment needs.

There may be a handful of roles out there that truly benefit from shiny, energetic types. But far more of the world needs to be staffed by competent folks who actually do their job. Every great now and again someone who offers both comes along. Not too often though.

/this piece written by my new iCommentBot. Free 7-day trial; Subscriptions begin at $19/month
 
2022-05-13 10:53:17 AM  
Well, the AI is mad at me because I popped popcorn in the office microwave.  Popcorn button/seven minutes.  What' the diff?  Going outside while it pops.
 
2022-05-13 10:57:44 AM  
Why do I need to ask for 50% of my prior salary because I'm turning 50?
 
2022-05-13 10:58:59 AM  
All you have to do is get on the AI's good side before the interview. Help computer. Stop all the downloading.
 
2022-05-13 10:59:24 AM  

beezeltown: AI has been screening job candidates for a long time, at least the last decade. Mostly just looking for keywords and phrases, though.

Like most models, though, there will be folks who are highly competent at gaming the system (but not particularly good at anything else) who receive the first and most focused attention.

We don't need a world populated by Instagram-like vapid models who can parrot the right phrases and "look the part" only to become another lump in the department carried along the few people who actually get things done. Meanwhile, the awkward, grumpy people, whose brains have been battle-scarred by getting the job done, don't naturally shine for delusional managers who think "fresh energy" is what their dysfunctional business segment needs.

There may be a handful of roles out there that truly benefit from shiny, energetic types. But far more of the world needs to be staffed by competent folks who actually do their job. Every great now and again someone who offers both comes along. Not too often though.

/this piece written by my new iCommentBot. Free 7-day trial; Subscriptions begin at $19/month


Shiny, energetic types are sales monkeys - anywhere else they're usually a liability.  Some exceptions, you occaisonally get an earnest one that does do some good, but it's rare to find one with the discernment to wait and see what works before farking with things, rather than wading in with a machete and running amok
 
2022-05-13 11:00:04 AM  
Yep. Employers are, generally, not allowed to ask your age, but they can demand your date of birth and your date of graduation from college or post-graduate degrees on initial applications. We are all supposed to believe that doesn't result in people being preemptively eliminated.
 
2022-05-13 11:00:29 AM  

chaoswolf: Why do I need to ask for 50% of my prior salary because I'm turning 50?


Because you should be grateful they gave you a job, you dinosaur. Hell, you should be paying them.

/53
 
2022-05-13 11:02:17 AM  
please upload your resume. please fill out this application with all the information in the resume you just uploaded. FARK YOU
 
2022-05-13 11:02:17 AM  
I'm sorry, we're only hiring Gibbons for this position. We're not looking for a Panda right now.

Oh really? What if I sweeten the deal a little?

Fark user imageView Full Size



Welcome aboard!
 
2022-05-13 11:02:27 AM  

InfoFreako: chaoswolf: Why do I need to ask for 50% of my prior salary because I'm turning 50?

Because you should be grateful they gave you a job, you dinosaur. Hell, you should be paying them.

/53


Ok, thanks. Now it makes sense. I shall hence go forth from my year+ vacation with open eyes and an empty wallet!
 
2022-05-13 11:03:13 AM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: it's rare to find one with the discernment to wait and see what works before farking with things, rather than wading in with a machete and running amok


sterlingsop.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
 
2022-05-13 11:03:38 AM  
Fark HR to begin with. They do nothing but ride the coat tails of everyone else in an organization. They produce nothing. They do nothing. They are a waste of $$$ (and space... and air AFAIAC).
 
2022-05-13 11:05:50 AM  

InfoFreako: chaoswolf: Why do I need to ask for 50% of my prior salary because I'm turning 50?

Because you should be grateful they gave you a job, you dinosaur. Hell, you should be paying them.

/53


oh & because "HR" already = "Artificial Intelligence"

/ also 53 & told I'm lucky to have a job
 
2022-05-13 11:06:28 AM  
At every level, this software takes money out of the hands of working people. Job seekers have to put in more applications, have to spend more time putting 'keywords' in their resume, or even pay out for 'resume scan' software themselves to combat the A.I. On the prospective employer's side, they're spending less on staff to review applications.
 
2022-05-13 11:07:17 AM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: it's rare to find one with the discernment to wait and see what works before farking with things, rather than wading in with a machete and running amok


I simultaneously loathe working in environments where:
1. Older, entrenched people have a "We've always done it that way!" attitude about everything, and;
2. There is a selection process that promotes people who show up and change things for no good reason, and they do that because the process that led to their selection is they are a person who "Does things!"

It's hard to find a balance.
 
2022-05-13 11:07:33 AM  

beezeltown: AI has been screening job candidates for a long time, at least the last decade. Mostly just looking for keywords and phrases, though.

Like most models, though, there will be folks who are highly competent at gaming the system (but not particularly good at anything else) who receive the first and most focused attention.

We don't need a world populated by Instagram-like vapid models who can parrot the right phrases and "look the part" only to become another lump in the department carried along the few people who actually get things done. Meanwhile, the awkward, grumpy people, whose brains have been battle-scarred by getting the job done, don't naturally shine for delusional managers who think "fresh energy" is what their dysfunctional business segment needs.

There may be a handful of roles out there that truly benefit from shiny, energetic types. But far more of the world needs to be staffed by competent folks who actually do their job. Every great now and again someone who offers both comes along. Not too often though.

/this piece written by my new iCommentBot. Free 7-day trial; Subscriptions begin at $19/month


20 years ago the resume were scanning keywords, now the tools are much much more advanced.  Amazon built a tool that they trained on existing employee resumes which turned out to 'accidentally' become biased against women and they couldn't 'fix' it:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-com-jobs-automation-insight-idUSKCN1MK08G

New tools are incredibly opaque and allow companies to discriminate against older applicants and those applicants of non desired ethnic backgrounds. If your older than 40, don't think your resume isn't being thrown out due to innocent requirements such as 'must have 8-10 years experience'. If your resume has 20 years experience, your too old and automatically screened out. HR is not discriminating because they never see your resume.
 
2022-05-13 11:07:44 AM  

Fasces Breaker: Fark HR to begin with. They do nothing but ride the coat tails of everyone else in an organization. They produce nothing. They do nothing. They are a waste of $$$ (and space... and air AFAIAC).


HR only exists to fire you. You'll never find more than a room temperature IQ among people working in HR.
 
2022-05-13 11:09:15 AM  
Maybe the hard-to-accept reality is that the AI isn't wrong
 
2022-05-13 11:11:44 AM  
My wife is writing a book about ethics in AI that deals with this issue so I'm really getting a kick out of this
 
2022-05-13 11:14:21 AM  
Most AI is programmed by white men and we're surprised when it's biased towards white men? I'm shocked I say!
 
2022-05-13 11:15:16 AM  
This is a consequence of sharty HR minions and a system that half arsed attempts to protect employees but not really so you end up with employers who are looking to discriminate, but 2nd had so they can put their pinkie to their mouths and play innocent.  Same thing with like price fixing in the rental market where a research company will state this is the going rate, and landlords will fix their price to that rate; price fixing through an intermediary, which is not letter of the law illegal, though spirit of the law it is, but this is Murica.
 
2022-05-13 11:15:41 AM  

Fano: My wife is writing a book about ethics in AI that deals with this issue so I'm really getting a kick out of this


I *am* an AI so I'm END STATEMENT.
 
2022-05-13 11:17:42 AM  

Fasces Breaker: Fark HR to begin with. They do nothing but ride the coat tails of everyone else in an organization. They produce nothing. They do nothing. They are a waste of $$$ (and space... and air AFAIAC).


They ferret out snitches, errr whistle blowers and disgruntled employees.  You never know when the boss is handed an indictment and he needs to know people who know are long gone.
 
2022-05-13 11:17:59 AM  

Karma Chameleon: please upload your resume. please fill out this application with all the information in the resume you just uploaded. FARK YOU


I always hated this tedious bullshiat
 
2022-05-13 11:19:40 AM  
If you're 10+ years into your career and not using your own network to walk into jobs, you're doing it so unbelievably wrong.

I cannot stress this enough that job hunting through job boards and cold calls should be the LAST resort as those are almost always chock filled with 10 million shiat ass applicants that smash the apply button to everything even remotely related to their skill set (or hell, not even that).

Hiring a headhunter is the best option or just wait for them to message you. I get 10-20 cold calls and messages a week on LinkedIn looking to hire and I'm not even in that specialized of a career - just middle management type stuff.
 
2022-05-13 11:20:12 AM  
Hey subby, I'm an old person and one of the best employees my company has ever had. Any company should be happy to have my old ass, but my company wouldn't let me go and I don't want to leave.

Sure they could give us some more paid holidays and the insurance sucks. Nevertheless, it's a great place to work, nobody is standing over me and we have fun sometimes.
 
2022-05-13 11:21:46 AM  
There's a very simple principle in data science, known as GIGO: Garbage In, Garbage Out. If your AI is discriminating, then the data you fed it is garbage, and if the people generating the racist data did so intentionally, they too are garbage.
 
2022-05-13 11:22:47 AM  

Karma Chameleon: please upload your resume. please fill out this application with all the information in the resume you just uploaded. FARK YOU


Thank you for your cooperation. This allows a computer to prescreen you before a 24 year old recruiting assistant takes a look.

You will be contacted by someone competent in round 4, at which time we will determine we don't have the money to hire you.

Have a good day
 
2022-05-13 11:23:25 AM  

Fano: My wife is writing a book about ethics in AI that deals with this issue so I'm really getting a kick out of this

The Alignment Problem: Machine Learning and Human Values

is already on my pile of books to read, but I'd absolutely pick up another book or three that covered it. I hope I hear about it whenever your wife wraps it up and publishes, it's a really interesting topic!
 
2022-05-13 11:23:45 AM  

Flushing It All Away: If you're 10+ years into your career and not using your own network to walk into jobs, you're doing it so unbelievably wrong.

I cannot stress this enough that job hunting through job boards and cold calls should be the LAST resort as those are almost always chock filled with 10 million shiat ass applicants that smash the apply button to everything even remotely related to their skill set (or hell, not even that).

Hiring a headhunter is the best option or just wait for them to message you. I get 10-20 cold calls and messages a week on LinkedIn looking to hire and I'm not even in that specialized of a career - just middle management type stuff.


any advice for someone 1.5 years into an IT career? how much do headhunters cost? and do they even take clients that are still at basically entry level? I did move from help desk to sys admin in three months, but that was more out of necessity than my skills

got a new dept director recently and he is extremely mercurial, probably bipolar. has already fired a few people and constantly contradicts himself, almost on a daily basis. I need out.

I started in the pandemic and work from home so networking opportunities have been pretty non-existent.
 
2022-05-13 11:25:14 AM  

trerro: There's a very simple principle in data science, known as GIGO: Garbage In, Garbage Out. If your AI is discriminating, then the data you fed it is garbage, and if the people generating the racist data did so intentionally, they too are garbage.


What about the garbage applicant pool?

Anyone thinking that a one-click application submittal process, most often found today on job boards, is getting high quality candidates is fooling only themselves.
 
2022-05-13 11:25:34 AM  

moothemagiccow: At every level, this software takes money out of the hands of working people. Job seekers have to put in more applications, have to spend more time putting 'keywords' in their resume, or even pay out for 'resume scan' software themselves to combat the A.I. On the prospective employer's side, they're spending less on staff to review applications.


So as a former hiring manager.....here is how it works.

I post a job. It goes on some job sites, ends up across a couple of aggregators, etc.

I get 5000 responses for it. Obviously i can't sit there and read through every one. So i search across some key criteria, and get it down to a reasonable number i can look at.

If you couldn't be arsed to do a little homework on the company to get a sense of what i was looking for, and spend 10 minutes tailoring your resume, it means you don't have substantial interest in the position, and are just puking out resumes to everything that you remotely slot in on, if that.
 
2022-05-13 11:26:01 AM  
My graphics teacher in college told all of us to job hop in our 20s to get raise our salaries and start looking for a retirement job at around 35. By the time you hit 40, get comfy where you are and become indispensable because no one will hire your old ass when they can just underpay a new grad. Granted, he worked at a gaming company.
 
2022-05-13 11:26:45 AM  

Flushing It All Away: If you're 10+ years into your career and not using your own network to walk into jobs, you're doing it so unbelievably wrong.

I cannot stress this enough that job hunting through job boards and cold calls should be the LAST resort as those are almost always chock filled with 10 million shiat ass applicants that smash the apply button to everything even remotely related to their skill set (or hell, not even that).

Hiring a headhunter is the best option or just wait for them to message you. I get 10-20 cold calls and messages a week on LinkedIn looking to hire and I'm not even in that specialized of a career - just middle management type stuff.


Your assumptions are predicated on a belief that you work in an environment where a meaningful network of connections can be built and your employer(s) are not using you and then discarding you when they're done with you.  I've worked in two industries now where this really wasn't an option and the contacts I built were coworkers who are in the same position as me, resorting to indeed for jobs because employers are price fixing wages in our fields, in our area.  I mean, there are so many facets to employment, to make such a blanket statement shows just how out of touch you are.
 
2022-05-13 11:27:51 AM  
It's both...
 
2022-05-13 11:29:01 AM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: beezeltown: AI has been screening job candidates for a long time, at least the last decade. Mostly just looking for keywords and phrases, though.

Like most models, though, there will be folks who are highly competent at gaming the system (but not particularly good at anything else) who receive the first and most focused attention.

We don't need a world populated by Instagram-like vapid models who can parrot the right phrases and "look the part" only to become another lump in the department carried along the few people who actually get things done. Meanwhile, the awkward, grumpy people, whose brains have been battle-scarred by getting the job done, don't naturally shine for delusional managers who think "fresh energy" is what their dysfunctional business segment needs.

There may be a handful of roles out there that truly benefit from shiny, energetic types. But far more of the world needs to be staffed by competent folks who actually do their job. Every great now and again someone who offers both comes along. Not too often though.

/this piece written by my new iCommentBot. Free 7-day trial; Subscriptions begin at $19/month

20 years ago the resume were scanning keywords, now the tools are much much more advanced.  Amazon built a tool that they trained on existing employee resumes which turned out to 'accidentally' become biased against women and they couldn't 'fix' it:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-com-jobs-automation-insight-idUSKCN1MK08G

New tools are incredibly opaque and allow companies to discriminate against older applicants and those applicants of non desired ethnic backgrounds. If your older than 40, don't think your resume isn't being thrown out due to innocent requirements such as 'must have 8-10 years experience'. If your resume has 20 years experience, your too old and automatically screened out. HR is not discriminating because they never see your resume.


So much this. Let me rephrase what is really happening: They tell their AI (fancy word for software that filters based on criteria) they are looking for someone with 8-10 years experience. Only people that have 8-10 years experience in exactly what they are looking for (i.e. "pushing buttons") are passed along. No one that has more than that experience is passed along, no one with less. No one that is more experienced is passed along, no one with less. No one with 8-10 years experience pushing buttons, and 5-10 years experience moping floors. The only person/people that make it through the filter are the ones that match "8-10 years pushing buttons". Everyone else is "outside the scope of what was requested".

Is it discrimination? Maybe, maybe not. It isn't discrimination to look for a junior staff level employee (i.e. less experienced). It is to explicitly avoid someone that is experienced and is interested in taking the junior staff position because they're at the point in their life where they aren't interested in the breakneck pace of the senior positions anymore.
 
2022-05-13 11:29:13 AM  

Flushing It All Away: If you're 10+ years into your career and not using your own network to walk into jobs, you're doing it so unbelievably wrong.


Also, your assumption is based on your experience in a major metropolitan area...there's a lot of open country out there.
 
2022-05-13 11:29:59 AM  

Karma Chameleon: any advice for someone 1.5 years into an IT career? how much do headhunters cost? and do they even take clients that are still at basically entry level? I did move from help desk to sys admin in three months, but that was more out of necessity than my skills


You shouldn't be paying a head hunter, if you are, you are being scammed. You can certainly reach out to staffing firms, etc, let them know what you are interested in, and start building a relationship with them.

The most important thing you should be doing is networking. IT is obviously flush full of sharp technical people, but so many of them lack people or business skills. Demonstrating you have them gets you noticed and opens doors.
 
2022-05-13 11:30:02 AM  
This is hitting very much home for me.  Have been unemployed since just before Christmas.  According to my log book, I have applied for over 400 jobs.  I have had 3 interviews so far.  Always make it to the 2nd round of interviews, but never beyond that.  I keep getting emails from companies that find my resume on line offering me jobs paying between $8 and $12.50 per hour.  My job search criteria is a minimum of $18 per hour.  The other thing that really bothers me is that I am trying for a remote job (help desk related) and each job that pops up as a Remote help desk job requires you to work in or around the town where the corporate office is because they require you to go into the office 5 days a week.  THATS NOT WHAT A REMOTE JOB IS.

/Also just turned 53, so getting kicks, etc...
 
2022-05-13 11:30:04 AM  

Karma Chameleon: Flushing It All Away: If you're 10+ years into your career and not using your own network to walk into jobs, you're doing it so unbelievably wrong.

I cannot stress this enough that job hunting through job boards and cold calls should be the LAST resort as those are almost always chock filled with 10 million shiat ass applicants that smash the apply button to everything even remotely related to their skill set (or hell, not even that).

Hiring a headhunter is the best option or just wait for them to message you. I get 10-20 cold calls and messages a week on LinkedIn looking to hire and I'm not even in that specialized of a career - just middle management type stuff.

any advice for someone 1.5 years into an IT career? how much do headhunters cost? and do they even take clients that are still at basically entry level? I did move from help desk to sys admin in three months, but that was more out of necessity than my skills

got a new dept director recently and he is extremely mercurial, probably bipolar. has already fired a few people and constantly contradicts himself, almost on a daily basis. I need out.

I started in the pandemic and work from home so networking opportunities have been pretty non-existent.


Yeah. Network. Network everyday and every weekend.

Message people on LinkedIn and take them out to drinks or dinner. Get inside knowledge of the industry from professionals. I've never said no to a free dinner or a free drink after work to share what I know.

As much as the future is digital, it's in person networking that gives you the most real data. Hell, I've straight up asked people what they make and they've shared it. Guess what I found out? Glassdoor is a farking joke and you'll get way better insight into the total compensation packages available.

One company I worked for said 2 weeks PTO to all new hires, but I talked to five current employees and realized they will give you up to six in negotiations, but don't move much on salary. I got five weeks PTOwith an extra week of sick time and negotiated a higher 401k match and performance bonus multiplier.

Insight comes from real people.

So, networking is my answer. I have a dozen people I could call up tomorrow and take a position with. It's always good to keep good options in your back pocket in case you want to scoot from your current employer.
 
2022-05-13 11:34:00 AM  
"Monitor work productivity"


So they should not look to see if someone is doing a good job or just sitting around doing nothing. What's next? You will not be able to fire anyone that doesn't do their job? That's socialism for you.
 
2022-05-13 11:34:35 AM  

Flushing It All Away: If you're 10+ years into your career and not using your own network to walk into jobs, you're doing it so unbelievably wrong.


As well, having to resort to networking over your own merits is not the flex you think it is.
 
2022-05-13 11:37:28 AM  
As someone who occasionally does hiring, I just learned that my refusal to let HR do an initial screen of applicants based on rules, because I want to make up my own mind as to whether or not they're qualified, is most DEI.

I'm farkin' trendy!
 
2022-05-13 11:39:58 AM  

MrScruffles: Flushing It All Away: If you're 10+ years into your career and not using your own network to walk into jobs, you're doing it so unbelievably wrong.

As well, having to resort to networking over your own merits is not the flex you think it is.


Maybe, but I talk to a lot of new guys who don't even realize the hiring process is a negotiation and who sent literally thousands of applications.

Education into hiring should be a mandatory topic in high school education.

Me? I'd prefer the handshake jobs than hoping on ropes end that you can eek out a couple more thousand dollars before the company hires someone else cheaper.

Merit is fine, but like SAT scores, not everyone scores a 1600.
 
2022-05-13 11:42:20 AM  

Flushing It All Away: MrScruffles: Flushing It All Away: If you're 10+ years into your career and not using your own network to walk into jobs, you're doing it so unbelievably wrong.

As well, having to resort to networking over your own merits is not the flex you think it is.

Maybe, but I talk to a lot of new guys who don't even realize the hiring process is a negotiation and who sent literally thousands of applications.

Education into hiring should be a mandatory topic in high school education.

Me? I'd prefer the handshake jobs than hoping on ropes end that you can eek out a couple more thousand dollars before the company hires someone else cheaper.

Merit is fine, but like SAT scores, not everyone scores a 1600.


That's fair.  I mean, I get the idea and advantages of networking, I just believe it's a symptom of a flaw in the system.
 
2022-05-13 11:43:20 AM  

Reverend J: Most AI is programmed by white men and we're surprised when it's biased towards white men? I'm shocked I say!


Virtual reality has a white male bias.
 
2022-05-13 11:44:59 AM  

Flushing It All Away: So, networking is my answer. I have a dozen people I could call up tomorrow and take a position with. It's always good to keep good options in your back pocket in case you want to scoot from your current employer.


So much this. Even if you are in east bumblefark, you can be using linked in, professional forums, etc to make some connections and demonstrate your abilities to them. Like i said, reach out to a recruiter in your area, introduce yourself, tell them what you are looking for, and then keep in touch.

Like Flushing said, if i have someone come to me asking if i know anyone who does XYZ and may be looking, there is a good chance i have someone in my head that i know would be a good fit for the job, and not just from a technical fit, but also someone who would thrive in it and where it would be beneficial to everyone involved. I can then reach out to that person, say, "Hey, these guys are looking for someone that does this, dust off your resume, tailor it to this, and i'll hand walk it to them and you will be at the front of the line"

If you are relying on an auto filled form on monster or something, you are just throwing darts.
 
2022-05-13 11:50:47 AM  

MrScruffles: Flushing It All Away: If you're 10+ years into your career and not using your own network to walk into jobs, you're doing it so unbelievably wrong.

As well, having to resort to networking over your own merits is not the flex you think it is.


I don't think that's it...for any given set of qualifications or performance level, there are going to be many qualified applicants.  You are just using people skills to get your resume/CV on the very short list and to find out about hidden opportunities.

"It's not advertised yet, but you know that XYZ Co is starting and new division of..."

Plus, it makes the lives of HR much easier when they get someone recommended to them.
 
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