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(KTLA Los Angeles)   Tragedy of the green lawns   (ktla.com) divider line
    More: Facepalm, Water crisis, Water, California, Hydrology, Precipitation, California's water use, Sierra Nevada, state officials  
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2448 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 May 2022 at 1:56 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



41 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-05-11 12:24:15 PM  
It appears the dry west is completely unwilling to make any life style or industrial changes to face the new water reality.

They have chosen poorly.
 
2022-05-11 12:26:38 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-11 12:34:36 PM  
Lawns should be outlawed yesterday. All the MAGATS here in CA have giant lawns to go with their embassy size US flags out front.
 
2022-05-11 12:54:56 PM  
We have so many programs in California that will help you dig up your lawn and replace with xeriscaping. There is no reason to have a grass lawn in California.
 
2022-05-11 2:07:14 PM  

Nina9: We have so many programs in California that will help you dig up your lawn and replace with xeriscaping. There is no reason to have a grass lawn in California.


I had to google xeriscaping

Cool.

/not a thing around here
 
2022-05-11 2:13:40 PM  
Yeah, well it's just another example of "people will do what they damn well want to do." They may know better, but they do it anyway.
 
2022-05-11 2:13:55 PM  

SpectroBoy: Nina9: We have so many programs in California that will help you dig up your lawn and replace with xeriscaping. There is no reason to have a grass lawn in California.

I had to google xeriscaping

Cool.

/not a thing around here


https://portal.ct.gov/DEEP/P2/Industry/Sustainable-Practices-and-Resources-For-the-Landscaping-and-Lawn-Care-Industry
 
2022-05-11 2:20:03 PM  

Lambskincoat: Lawns should be outlawed yesterday. All the MAGATS here in CA have giant lawns to go with their embassy size US flags out front.


Depends on where. I'm growing a lawn whether I like it or not. It's the natural state of my terrain.
 
2022-05-11 2:23:02 PM  
Save water and cut back on the grass.

i.pinimg.comView Full Size
 
2022-05-11 2:27:12 PM  
I'm seeing a lot more anti-lawn messaging recently, so that's good.

My local gardening group had a tiff over it with the resident chud arguing "I do what I want" despite most people pointing out that we're in a drought. Figured they would be the lawn holdouts. It's going to get to the point where you can note the bootlickers by their lawns.
 
2022-05-11 2:41:08 PM  

Omnidirectional Punching: I'm seeing a lot more anti-lawn messaging recently, so that's good.

My local gardening group had a tiff over it with the resident chud arguing "I do what I want" despite most people pointing out that we're in a drought. Figured they would be the lawn holdouts. It's going to get to the point where you can note the bootlickers by their lawns.


A Trumpanzee lawn is a very easy thing to attack. Weed killer is cheap and swastikas are easy to draw.
 
2022-05-11 2:44:45 PM  
Need to stop all of the pesticides and fertilizers that are destroying the water and eco systems.
 
2022-05-11 2:56:16 PM  

Private_Citizen: [Fark user image image 600x654]


Did anyone try to verify this at all??? 75% is a massive number.

From my few minutes of checking I see


If you put together all similar commercial water users, which includes many other companies besides bottlers, they all amount to 5/100ths of 1 percent of the state's annual water use.


That's a far cry from 75% of the rivers groundwater so maybe just a little bit inaccurate
 
jvl [BareFark]
2022-05-11 3:01:23 PM  

SpectroBoy: It appears the dry west is completely unwilling to make any life style or industrial changes to face the new water reality.


It's a Catch-22.  When the day comes that the water utility enforces rationing, it will be a rule like "reduce your usage by 20% from what you were using the previous month or face fines."  Right now, it's mostly voluntary rationing. If you voluntarily kill your lawn now, they still expect you to save even more water later. No credit is given for being a helpful volunteer who got ahead of the curve.
 
2022-05-11 3:06:38 PM  

The Irresponsible Captain: Save water and cut back on the grass.

[i.pinimg.com image 317x438]


His personal style choices offend me, imma pluck my eyes out now.
 
2022-05-11 3:08:09 PM  
Ive been renting for many years. It was a happy day for me when water main broke underground to sprinkler system. Landlords didn't want to fix it. I now have no cockroach problem, and my water bill has dropped a lot.
 
2022-05-11 3:11:08 PM  
I never water my lawn, if it dies, less to mow and it always grows back in the winter
 
2022-05-11 3:22:52 PM  

jvl: SpectroBoy: It appears the dry west is completely unwilling to make any life style or industrial changes to face the new water reality.

It's a Catch-22.  When the day comes that the water utility enforces rationing, it will be a rule like "reduce your usage by 20% from what you were using the previous month or face fines."  Right now, it's mostly voluntary rationing. If you voluntarily kill your lawn now, they still expect you to save even more water later. No credit is given for being a helpful volunteer who got ahead of the curve.


Wow that's dumb, it actually rewards using as much water as you can so rationing won't affect you as much.
 
2022-05-11 3:24:04 PM  

jvl: SpectroBoy: It appears the dry west is completely unwilling to make any life style or industrial changes to face the new water reality.

It's a Catch-22.  When the day comes that the water utility enforces rationing, it will be a rule like "reduce your usage by 20% from what you were using the previous month or face fines."  Right now, it's mostly voluntary rationing. If you voluntarily kill your lawn now, they still expect you to save even more water later. No credit is given for being a helpful volunteer who got ahead of the curve.


So, if I install a huge water tank and put my surplus in it now I will be sitting on a GOLD MINE when the rationing comes. . . .
 
2022-05-11 3:40:08 PM  
Lawns, which have been especially singled out as water wasting culprits, are estimated to use about 40% to 60% of landscape irrigation in California, or just 3.5% to 5% of total statewide water use.

Ten percent of California's water is guzzled up by almonds. That alone equals the volume of water used by all of California's cities combined."A fistful of California almonds, shipped to Europe or Asia, uses up more water than the average shower."
Almond Acreage Increases in 2022

"A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law.
"It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west." "The last few years there has been an increase in exports to China."

And the vast majority goes towards big agribusiness including growing water intensive crops like almonds and alfalfa. In California 80% of our water goes toward agriculture and 20% of that goes to tree nuts. Around two-thirds of these nuts are exported overseas, leaving massive profits for corporate titans but less water in California. Another 15% is used for alfalfa, a water-intensive crop used to feed cows on factory farms or for export. These crops have increased through the 20 year drought and have no business being grown to this scale in our arid climate. This is especially true as salmon die and over a million Californians lack access to clean water, in part due to sinking groundwater tables. That's no problem for a Saudi company that gained access to water rights in California. It exports alfalfa grown here back to Saudi Arabia to support its mega-dairies.

If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those of us who, at least occasionally, try to eat the way Michael Pollan and Alice Waters say we should), but the monetary impact within the state would be smaller than most people might guess, since agriculture accounts for no more than about two per cent of California's economy.

/No, this does not mean I support green lawns for California.  A quick search for California mansions (even empty ones on the market) still shows lots of massive green lawns.
 
2022-05-11 4:43:12 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-11 4:49:40 PM  

PyroStock: Lawns, which have been especially singled out as water wasting culprits, are estimated to use about 40% to 60% of landscape irrigation in California, or just 3.5% to 5% of total statewide water use.

Ten percent of California's water is guzzled up by almonds. That alone equals the volume of water used by all of California's cities combined."A fistful of California almonds, shipped to Europe or Asia, uses up more water than the average shower."
Almond Acreage Increases in 2022

"A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law. "It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west." "The last few years there has been an increase in exports to China."

And the vast majority goes towards big agribusiness including growing water intensive crops like almonds and alfalfa. In California 80% of our water goes toward agriculture and 20% of that goes to tree nuts. Around two-thirds of these nuts are exported overseas, leaving massive profits for corporate titans but less water in California. Another 15% is used for alfalfa, a water-intensive crop used to feed cows on factory farms or for export. These crops have increased through the 20 year drought and have no business being grown to this scale in our arid climate. This is especially true as salmon die and over a million Californians lack access to clean water, in part due to sinking groundwater tables. That's no problem for a Saudi company that gained access to water rights in California. It exports alfalfa grown here back to Saudi Arabia to support its mega-dairies.

If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those of us who, at least occasionally, try to eat the way Michael Pollan and Alice Waters say we should), but the monetary impact within the state would be smaller than most people might guess, since agriculture accounts for no more than about two per cent of California's economy.

/No, this does not mean I support green lawns for California.  A quick search for California mansions (even empty ones on the market) still shows lots of massive green lawns.


Singling out a particular crop or two is fairly simplistic and not really helpful. A grower has whatever water they have and they should be able to grow whatever they can make a living at. You get going to far in the direction of telling guys what to grow and it ends badly, because growers generally know their land and their circumstances far more intimately than any central planning set up could. I'm talking about guys who know that this field has a streak of clay down the middle and is prone to mold as a result, so they choose specific varieties that resist mold to hedge against this risk. Plus, guys have a lot of accumulated and specific knowledge of the crops in their rotation, as well as highly specialized equipment. Labor migration follows the crop patterns as well. It is a very complex system and it just isn't realistic for central planning to end anywhere but in disaster.

Now, this is not to say that agriculture isn't an area that needs to improve to keep up with the current climate patterns. But you target irrigation practices and reform certain aspects of the water rights system, and you let the growers figure out how to adapt and stay in the game. Flood irrigation uses several fold more water than drip. And the only guys who flood all have riparian water rights (i.e. nearly unlimited water more or less for free). Another big one is ground water, which they are beginning to reform. Used to be you could take as much as you could pump out, but they put meters on Ag wells and starting this year or next there will be severe limits to ground water withdrawals.

This constitutes a taking, in the eminent domain sense of the word, whether restricting water or crops or the like, because the per acre value of farm land is tied tightly to the water rights and what you can grow. So this has to be done thoughtfully to maximize the impact without strangling agriculture.

I think there is a really solid argument to be made in favor of a robust Ag industry and as local a one as possible, so on the face I think your post is a non starter from that point of view. But also, your casual "it would be hard on farming communities" is more than a little shiatty. It would completely and utterly destroy farming communities. Similar to how nafta, on net, results in a net benefit for the average Joe because of cheaper goods, but was wretched for the factory towns in the Midwest. When a community surges to 25+% unemployment because of some closures, it is devastating in ways that ripple far beyond the short term loss of a factory and show up for example as rates of diabetes and addiction decades later. Please don't casually toss communities aside like that.

/ Work in Ag in California
// Libby liberal to boot
/// Also, you are cherry picking your statistics a little bit. Agriculture itself is only a couple percent, but don't forget all of the related economic activity that goes away without it. The 80% of water is 80% of the water that is used, not 80% of the water in the system, which makes it sound more dramatic. The water left in the rivers may not be as much as it should be, but it is left there for the purpose of protecting the environment.
 
2022-05-11 4:51:14 PM  

Barricaded Gunman: Omnidirectional Punching: I'm seeing a lot more anti-lawn messaging recently, so that's good.

My local gardening group had a tiff over it with the resident chud arguing "I do what I want" despite most people pointing out that we're in a drought. Figured they would be the lawn holdouts. It's going to get to the point where you can note the bootlickers by their lawns.

A Trumpanzee lawn is a very easy thing to attack. Weed killer is cheap and swastikas are easy to draw.


I have a 50/50 chance of drawing it in the opposite direction it is supposed to be.
 
2022-05-11 5:19:52 PM  

Daer21: Lambskincoat: Lawns should be outlawed yesterday. All the MAGATS here in CA have giant lawns to go with their embassy size US flags out front.

Depends on where. I'm growing a lawn whether I like it or not. It's the natural state of my terrain.


Yeah, up here on the Oregon coast, my lawn has been "juicy" as my husband calls it, for months.  We keep the actual grass lawn to a minimum, maybe 12' x 24.  But the lawn has decided it wants to move into the other parts of my yard (which are garden/flower beds, etc..   It knows it's been too crappy to get out and pull all that errant grass...but just you wait, lawn, when we have a few days of not torrential downpour, we're coming for you.)

I always look forward to the few months in late summer when we don't have to mow.  It turns sorta brown.
 
2022-05-11 5:20:49 PM  

Tom Marvolo Bombadil: [Fark user image 850x637]


That is freakin' beautiful.
 
2022-05-11 5:30:46 PM  
Dialysis uses like 100L of fresh water a session.

Times that by 3 sessions per week per person.
 
2022-05-11 5:47:53 PM  

SpectroBoy: It appears the dry west is completely unwilling to make any life style or industrial changes to face the new water reality.

They have chosen poorly.


Fortunately, this is a self-correcting problem.  Not a very pretty correction, but one nonetheless.
 
2022-05-11 5:59:44 PM  
When a drought is taking place, every drop of water is precious. Show me a person who insists on green lawns during a drought, and I will show you a person with a negative IQ.
 
2022-05-11 6:44:22 PM  

olorin604: jvl: SpectroBoy: It appears the dry west is completely unwilling to make any life style or industrial changes to face the new water reality.

It's a Catch-22.  When the day comes that the water utility enforces rationing, it will be a rule like "reduce your usage by 20% from what you were using the previous month or face fines."  Right now, it's mostly voluntary rationing. If you voluntarily kill your lawn now, they still expect you to save even more water later. No credit is given for being a helpful volunteer who got ahead of the curve.

Wow that's dumb, it actually rewards using as much water as you can so rationing won't affect you as much.


Like government offices trying not to save money so their budget doesn't get cut next year
 
2022-05-11 6:46:03 PM  

PyroStock: Lawns, which have been especially singled out as water wasting culprits, are estimated to use about 40% to 60% of landscape irrigation in California, or just 3.5% to 5% of total statewide water use.

Ten percent of California's water is guzzled up by almonds. That alone equals the volume of water used by all of California's cities combined."A fistful of California almonds, shipped to Europe or Asia, uses up more water than the average shower."
Almond Acreage Increases in 2022

"A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law. "It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west." "The last few years there has been an increase in exports to China."

And the vast majority goes towards big agribusiness including growing water intensive crops like almonds and alfalfa. In California 80% of our water goes toward agriculture and 20% of that goes to tree nuts. Around two-thirds of these nuts are exported overseas, leaving massive profits for corporate titans but less water in California. Another 15% is used for alfalfa, a water-intensive crop used to feed cows on factory farms or for export. These crops have increased through the 20 year drought and have no business being grown to this scale in our arid climate. This is especially true as salmon die and over a million Californians lack access to clean water, in part due to sinking groundwater tables. That's no problem for a Saudi company that gained access to water rights in California. It exports alfalfa grown here back to Saudi Arabia to support its mega-dairies.

If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those of us who, at least occasionally, try to eat the way Michael Pollan and Alice Waters say we should), but the monetary impact within the state would be smaller than most people might guess, since agriculture accounts for no more than about two per cent of California's economy.

/No, this does not mean I support green lawns for California.  A quick search for California mansions (even empty ones on the market) still shows lots of massive green lawns.


And cam care less about the fines.

There was an article years back about a property Oprah owned in Cali that she never visited but the workers kept the grass green and paid the fines.
 
2022-05-11 7:04:29 PM  

jvl: SpectroBoy: It appears the dry west is completely unwilling to make any life style or industrial changes to face the new water reality.

It's a Catch-22.  When the day comes that the water utility enforces rationing, it will be a rule like "reduce your usage by 20% from what you were using the previous month or face fines."  Right now, it's mostly voluntary rationing. If you voluntarily kill your lawn now, they still expect you to save even more water later. No credit is given for being a helpful volunteer who got ahead of the curve.


Yup. We killed off our lawn years ago. Just dirt right now. I'll be installing fake turf sometime here in the near future to make it green again. Most of our other yard plants are on a drip system. So we are about as conservative as possible. Showers are low flow, toilets are all low flow, HE washer and dishwasher, etc.

Our utility provides a minimum allocation to any single household of 8 ccf per month. We typically average 7 ccf usage with just me and my wife, so it would be pretty tough to best those numbers.
 
2022-05-11 10:47:03 PM  
Just finished watching a series of presentations put on by Mono County, Forest Service, BLM and local fire departments. I am glad I just planted a defensive green fire break. They recommended it for safety.

It's called a lawn by some.

It's watered twice a day, seven days a week. With LA DWP's water that I don't pay for. No hard feelings, they stole our water for 100 years so screw them. Screw them all.
 
2022-05-12 12:25:00 AM  

Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Lawns, which have been especially singled out as water wasting culprits, are estimated to use about 40% to 60% of landscape irrigation in California, or just 3.5% to 5% of total statewide water use.

Ten percent of California's water is guzzled up by almonds. That alone equals the volume of water used by all of California's cities combined."A fistful of California almonds, shipped to Europe or Asia, uses up more water than the average shower."
Almond Acreage Increases in 2022

"A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law. "It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west." "The last few years there has been an increase in exports to China."

And the vast majority goes towards big agribusiness including growing water intensive crops like almonds and alfalfa. In California 80% of our water goes toward agriculture and 20% of that goes to tree nuts. Around two-thirds of these nuts are exported overseas, leaving massive profits for corporate titans but less water in California. Another 15% is used for alfalfa, a water-intensive crop used to feed cows on factory farms or for export. These crops have increased through the 20 year drought and have no business being grown to this scale in our arid climate. This is especially true as salmon die and over a million Californians lack access to clean water, in part due to sinking groundwater tables. That's no problem for a Saudi company that gained access to water rights in California. It exports alfalfa grown here back to Saudi Arabia to support its mega-dairies.

If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those of us who, at least occasionally, try to eat the way Michael Pollan and Alice Waters say we should), but the monetary impact within the sta ...


Your solicitude for the business you work in is appreciated, I assure you.  Singling out a particular crop or two is as simplistic as singling out only green lawns (a far smaller percentage use than almonds or alfalfa). I pointed out the biggest water users in the agriculture business and how most of that goes overseas, which unsurprisingly disturbed someone in the CA agriculture business.  Also, Fark threads are locked after 1-2days, so it's literally impossible to go into long detailed in depth lengthy discussions here even if I did have the time to sit here all day/night waiting for you, but I think you knew that with your fairly simplistic and not helpful reply.  I know, welcome to Fark.

I never said there wasn't an "argument to be made in favor of a robust Ag industry and as local a one", but it's funny you attributed an entire article's recommendations to me based on 1 sentence & even seem to imply I want to completely remove all agriculture business from California... somehow.  If I felt as strongly as you think I did about destroying CA agriculture then I would have well referenced and done that, but don't let that get in your way over your irrational fear that I'm after your precious.

Finally, the decades long drought in CA (& 2022 Is California's Driest Year on Record So Far) and climate change is not a mere NAFTA policy you can conveniently lobby against to protect your innocent farmer (and your big agriculture profits).  I'm not the living embodiment avatar of climate change or the CA drought that you can conveniently say "don't do that" and problem solved.  Water rights, land rights, contracts and profits ensnared together are the bigger picture with that.  Some unwatered lawns will not solve California's water problems.  Agriculture(80% of California's water use) has a exponentially bigger role in California's water and thus a bigger responsibility.  You could say... with great water power comes great water responsibility.
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-12 12:45:40 PM  

PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Lawns, which have been especially singled out as water wasting culprits, are estimated to use about 40% to 60% of landscape irrigation in California, or just 3.5% to 5% of total statewide water use.

Ten percent of California's water is guzzled up by almonds. That alone equals the volume of water used by all of California's cities combined."A fistful of California almonds, shipped to Europe or Asia, uses up more water than the average shower."
Almond Acreage Increases in 2022

"A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law. "It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west." "The last few years there has been an increase in exports to China."

And the vast majority goes towards big agribusiness including growing water intensive crops like almonds and alfalfa. In California 80% of our water goes toward agriculture and 20% of that goes to tree nuts. Around two-thirds of these nuts are exported overseas, leaving massive profits for corporate titans but less water in California. Another 15% is used for alfalfa, a water-intensive crop used to feed cows on factory farms or for export. These crops have increased through the 20 year drought and have no business being grown to this scale in our arid climate. This is especially true as salmon die and over a million Californians lack access to clean water, in part due to sinking groundwater tables. That's no problem for a Saudi company that gained access to water rights in California. It exports alfalfa grown here back to Saudi Arabia to support its mega-dairies.

If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those of us who, at least occasionally, try to eat the way Michael Pollan and Alice Waters say we should), but the monetary impact within the sta ...

Your solicitude for the business you work in is appreciated, I assure you.  Singling out a particular crop or two is as simplistic as singling out only green lawns (a far smaller percentage use than almonds or alfalfa). I pointed out the biggest water users in the agriculture business and how most of that goes overseas, which unsurprisingly disturbed someone in the CA agriculture business.  Also, Fark threads are locked after 1-2days, so it's literally impossible to go into long detailed in depth lengthy discussions here even if I did have the time to sit here all day/night waiting for you, but I think you knew that with your fairly simplistic and not helpful reply.  I know, welcome to Fark.

I never said there wasn't an "argument to be made in favor of a robust Ag industry and as local a one", but it's funny you attributed an entire article's recommendations to me based on 1 sentence & even seem to imply I want to completely remove all agriculture business from California... somehow.  If I felt as strongly as you think I did about destroying CA agriculture then I would have well referenced and done that, but don't let that get in your way over your irrational fear that I'm after your precious.

Finally, the decades long drought in CA (& 2022 Is California's Driest Year on Record So Far) and climate change is not a mere NAFTA policy you can conveniently lobby against to protect your innocent farmer (and your big agriculture profits).  I'm not the living embodiment avatar of climate change or the CA drought that you can conveniently say "don't do that" and problem solved.  Water rights, land rights, contracts and profits ensnared together are the bigger picture with that.  Some unwatered lawns will not solve California's water problems.  Agriculture(80% of California's water use) has a exponentially bigger role in California's water and thus a bigger responsibility.  You could say... with great water power comes great water responsibility.
[Fark user image image 644x508]


I mean, you do you, but this post is a little bit of a doubling down on your scorn for agricultural communities.

Singling out lawns over farming is fairly easily defensible, because lawns produce nothing of value. Ag produces food, and jobs, and economic activity. Some of the food is exported, and current government policy does not give incentive to produce healthy food or to farm more sustainably, so definitely a flawed industry. But a ham fisted ban on a couple of crops won't fix any of that.

And for the record, almonds are the single biggest threat to my job. The water and land they use is coming out of the potential space for vegetables, and the more orchards they plant, the more likely the vegetable crops will collapse as a viable sector. That doesn't change the fact that throwing out simplistic arguments and factoids about one or two crops is not a substitute for a meaningful conversation about how we can improve Ag in the United States.
 
2022-05-12 1:22:50 PM  

Drank_the_40_water: Singling out a particular crop or two is fairly simplistic and not really helpful. A grower has whatever water they have and they should be able to grow whatever they can make a living at. You get going to far in the direction of telling guys what to grow and it ends badly,


Mostly true but the growth of almonds has exploded in California over the last decade or two so are you saying that that land is best used for almonds because I disagree. California grows 80% of the worlds almonds, its about profit and not what is best for the land. Alfalfa and other nuts are also higher consumers of water.

California is in such dire straits water wise maybe we must start making decisions about what crops can be grown or at least the acreage of those crops in total for the state. Its one part of a larger solution but its one that we need to think about.
Fark user imageView Full Size

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-05-12 2:44:15 PM  

TheRedMonkey: Drank_the_40_water: Singling out a particular crop or two is fairly simplistic and not really helpful. A grower has whatever water they have and they should be able to grow whatever they can make a living at. You get going to far in the direction of telling guys what to grow and it ends badly,

Mostly true but the growth of almonds has exploded in California over the last decade or two so are you saying that that land is best used for almonds because I disagree. California grows 80% of the worlds almonds, its about profit and not what is best for the land. Alfalfa and other nuts are also higher consumers of water.

California is in such dire straits water wise maybe we must start making decisions about what crops can be grown or at least the acreage of those crops in total for the state. Its one part of a larger solution but its one that we need to think about.
[Fark user image image 354x256]
[Fark user image image 659x472]


Definitely not the best use of the land from point of view of feeding the country a healthy diet. Especially since the almonds are mostly for export. But indisputably the best use from point of view of lining the farmers pockets. To me, in a sane world, the farm bill should be designed to shift the economics towards healthier farm output. Sadly, we don't live in a sane world, and the farm bill does the exact opposite.

But a lot of what drives almond acreage comes back to water rights in the south western section of the central valley. Those are the big conglomerates, who are gaming the system to extract water and keep them nuts coming. They do things like buying adjacent land, putting one cow on it so it can be called range land, which allows them surface and ground water that they can pipe over to their almonds. And that poor cow, good lord what a miserable life.

But if water policy was sensible, almonds would not be viable, much less profitable, in Bakertucky. In that area, rain might give you ten percent of what the trees need. Up north in the Sacramento Valley you might get forty or sixty percent as rain, so a lot less water project capacity is used.

Water policy can also be used to conserve the soil by allowing an understory and incentive to use drip etc. From a climate basis, the state is already restricting burning when the orchard comes out, so the trees go through a monster chipper and then get reincorporated into the soil, which improves water use and soil health, and does also cut into the profit (maybe shifting away from orchards).  Done right, almonds don't have to be bad water users, and certainly don't have to be bad for the soil.

Ag does need reform, and water is the single biggest piece of that, even outside of the arid west. But my point is that more will be accomplished with less resistance if we focus on what needs fixing and not on telling farmers what to do.
 
2022-05-12 3:14:05 PM  

Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Lawns, which have been especially singled out as water wasting culprits, are estimated to use about 40% to 60% of landscape irrigation in California, or just 3.5% to 5% of total statewide water use.

Ten percent of California's water is guzzled up by almonds. That alone equals the volume of water used by all of California's cities combined."A fistful of California almonds, shipped to Europe or Asia, uses up more water than the average shower."
Almond Acreage Increases in 2022

"A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law. "It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west." "The last few years there has been an increase in exports to China."

And the vast majority goes towards big agribusiness including growing water intensive crops like almonds and alfalfa. In California 80% of our water goes toward agriculture and 20% of that goes to tree nuts. Around two-thirds of these nuts are exported overseas, leaving massive profits for corporate titans but less water in California. Another 15% is used for alfalfa, a water-intensive crop used to feed cows on factory farms or for export. These crops have increased through the 20 year drought and have no business being grown to this scale in our arid climate. This is especially true as salmon die and over a million Californians lack access to clean water, in part due to sinking groundwater tables. That's no problem for a Saudi company that gained access to water rights in California. It exports alfalfa grown here back to Saudi Arabia to support its mega-dairies.

If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those of us who, at least occasionally, try to eat the way Michael Pollan and Alice Waters say we should), but the ...


Your post is doubling down on your bias in the agriculture business and your livelihood that depends on it, but you're acting like a disgruntled teenager who mows lawns assuming I have some personal scorn against you and all lawn care related industries/jobs/products while preaching to me about all the environmental benefits that lawns provide.  Again, I'm not the CA drought.

Ironically, you admit almonds are the greatest threat to your job too, agree with my point about their excessive water use and agree there are flaws in the industry as well as point out several other problems with the almonds greed fad.  So we're on the same side there.  If you were looking for meaningful conversation you wouldn't fabricate extreme simplistic strawmen, like saying I'm advocating for a simplistic complete ban on all almonds and alfalfa (which I never said) purely to destroy all agriculture communities including that little house on the prairie and their little dog too.  Good luck fighting your "meaningful" strawmen you create before the thread locks.
 
2022-05-12 4:36:17 PM  

PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Lawns, which have been especially singled out as water wasting culprits, are estimated to use about 40% to 60% of landscape irrigation in California, or just 3.5% to 5% of total statewide water use.

Ten percent of California's water is guzzled up by almonds. That alone equals the volume of water used by all of California's cities combined."A fistful of California almonds, shipped to Europe or Asia, uses up more water than the average shower."
Almond Acreage Increases in 2022

"A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law. "It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west." "The last few years there has been an increase in exports to China."

And the vast majority goes towards big agribusiness including growing water intensive crops like almonds and alfalfa. In California 80% of our water goes toward agriculture and 20% of that goes to tree nuts. Around two-thirds of these nuts are exported overseas, leaving massive profits for corporate titans but less water in California. Another 15% is used for alfalfa, a water-intensive crop used to feed cows on factory farms or for export. These crops have increased through the 20 year drought and have no business being grown to this scale in our arid climate. This is especially true as salmon die and over a million Californians lack access to clean water, in part due to sinking groundwater tables. That's no problem for a Saudi company that gained access to water rights in California. It exports alfalfa grown here back to Saudi Arabia to support its mega-dairies.

If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those of us who, at least occasionally, try to eat the way Michael Pollan and Alice Waters say we should), but the ...

Your post is doubling down on your bias in the agriculture business and your livelihood that depends on it, but you're acting like a disgruntled teenager who mows lawns assuming I have some personal scorn against you and all lawn care related industries/jobs/products while preaching to me about all the environmental benefits that lawns provide.  Again, I'm not the CA drought.

Ironically, you admit almonds are the greatest threat to your job too, agree with my point about their excessive water use and agree there are flaws in the industry as well as point out several other problems with the almonds greed fad.  So we're on the same side there.  If you were looking for meaningful conversation you wouldn't fabricate extreme simplistic strawmen, like saying I'm advocating for a simplistic complete ban on all almonds and alfalfa (which I never said) purely to destroy all agriculture communities including that little house on the prairie and their little dog too.  Good luck fighting your "meaningful" strawmen you create before the thread locks.


I appreciate the pivot from the disgruntled teenager dig to the accusation of strawman fallacy, that is some fine fark.com discussion work.

Your original post was that almonds have no business being grown here at this scale. Pretty easy to read as a call not to grow them, and also, pretty simplistic. In order to hit big on an almond harvest, you need certainty that you won't get a hard freeze when blooming, that the bees will have good weather to fly, and that you won't get rain on your crop. You know where you can count on those things? California. There is a reason for growing almonds here.

And those farmers are going to use their water on something. Cotton was king here about in the day, still is a lot of it. Also very water inefficient, but they can charge a premium since brands like Victoria secret don't want to have child labor or slave labor in their supply chain. Also a crop where rain at the wrong time is very bad. But the drought aspect does not change regardless of whether it is almonds or cotton or dairy or whatever else.

So I advocate for a conversation about water use rather than about almonds. Seems reasonable to me, but this is fark, so reasonable is probably unreasonable.
 
2022-05-12 7:52:22 PM  

Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Lawns, which have been especially singled out as water wasting culprits, are estimated to use about 40% to 60% of landscape irrigation in California, or just 3.5% to 5% of total statewide water use.

Ten percent of California's water is guzzled up by almonds. That alone equals the volume of water used by all of California's cities combined."A fistful of California almonds, shipped to Europe or Asia, uses up more water than the average shower."
Almond Acreage Increases in 2022

"A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law. "It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west." "The last few years there has been an increase in exports to China."

And the vast majority goes towards big agribusiness including growing water intensive crops like almonds and alfalfa. In California 80% of our water goes toward agriculture and 20% of that goes to tree nuts. Around two-thirds of these nuts are exported overseas, leaving massive profits for corporate titans but less water in California. Another 15% is used for alfalfa, a water-intensive crop used to feed cows on factory farms or for export. These crops have increased through the 20 year drought and have no business being grown to this scale in our arid climate. This is especially true as salmon die and over a million Californians lack access to clean water, in part due to sinking groundwater tables. That's no problem for a Saudi company that gained access to water rights in California. It exports alfalfa grown here back to Saudi Arabia to support its mega-dairies.

If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those of us who, at least occasionally, try to eat the way Michael Pollan and Alice ...


No pivot, you're both, you have a disgruntled teenager mentality and you post strawman fallacies.  Maybe you get off on that.  Rather than enter the conversation tactfully like a mature adult and have a reasonable discussion about your industry, almonds, mansion lawns, alfalfa, water rights, land rights, policy, etc you simply came at me like a blind rabid dog thinking I'm after your bone.  But you have no teeth since the only attack you have against me is to make up stuff I never said.

Your very own post mentions how a "farm bill should be designed to shift the economics towards healthier farm output" yet when you somehow assume that couldn't apply to my posts and instead jump off the deep end and assume I want to ban all almonds and control farmers.  But you didn't come here to seek discussion and common ground... you came wanting a fight and wanting to exchange insults.  Mission accomplished?
 
2022-05-12 8:14:40 PM  

PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Lawns, which have been especially singled out as water wasting culprits, are estimated to use about 40% to 60% of landscape irrigation in California, or just 3.5% to 5% of total statewide water use.

Ten percent of California's water is guzzled up by almonds. That alone equals the volume of water used by all of California's cities combined."A fistful of California almonds, shipped to Europe or Asia, uses up more water than the average shower."
Almond Acreage Increases in 2022

"A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law. "It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west." "The last few years there has been an increase in exports to China."

And the vast majority goes towards big agribusiness including growing water intensive crops like almonds and alfalfa. In California 80% of our water goes toward agriculture and 20% of that goes to tree nuts. Around two-thirds of these nuts are exported overseas, leaving massive profits for corporate titans but less water in California. Another 15% is used for alfalfa, a water-intensive crop used to feed cows on factory farms or for export. These crops have increased through the 20 year drought and have no business being grown to this scale in our arid climate. This is especially true as salmon die and over a million Californians lack access to clean water, in part due to sinking groundwater tables. That's no problem for a Saudi company that gained access to water rights in California. It exports alfalfa grown here back to Saudi Arabia to support its mega-dairies.

If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those of us who, at least occasionally, try to eat the way Michael Pollan and Alice ...

No pivot, you're both, you have a disgruntled teenager mentality and you post strawman fallacies.  Maybe you get off on that.  Rather than enter the conversation tactfully like a mature adult and have a reasonable discussion about your industry, almonds, mansion lawns, alfalfa, water rights, land rights, policy, etc you simply came at me like a blind rabid dog thinking I'm after your bone.  But you have no teeth since the only attack you have against me is to make up stuff I never said.

Your very own post mentions how a "farm bill should be designed to shift the economics towards healthier farm output" yet when you somehow assume that couldn't apply to my posts and instead jump off the deep end and assume I want to ban all almonds and control farmers.  But you didn't come here to seek discussion and common ground... you came wanting a fight and wanting to exchange insults.  Mission accomplished?


The two comments you seem mad about I reference your words, that prompted my comment, in my comments. Made up indeed. And then I tried to explain where I was coming from. If that is your experience with teenagers, then you are lucky. And if you think this is my fighting words and exchanging insults, I have news for you. But regardless, I hope you have a relaxing day rest of your day. Nothing on the internet is worth getting so worked up over.
 
2022-05-12 8:42:45 PM  

Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Drank_the_40_water: PyroStock: Lawns, which have been especially singled out as water wasting culprits, are estimated to use about 40% to 60% of landscape irrigation in California, or just 3.5% to 5% of total statewide water use.

Ten percent of California's water is guzzled up by almonds. That alone equals the volume of water used by all of California's cities combined."A fistful of California almonds, shipped to Europe or Asia, uses up more water than the average shower."
Almond Acreage Increases in 2022

"A hundred billion gallons of water per year is being exported in the form of alfalfa from California," argues Professor Robert Glennon from Arizona College of Law. "It's a huge amount. It's enough for a year's supply for a million families - it's a lot of water, particularly when you're looking at the dreadful drought throughout the south-west." "The last few years there has been an increase in exports to China."

And the vast majority goes towards big agribusiness including growing water intensive crops like almonds and alfalfa. In California 80% of our water goes toward agriculture and 20% of that goes to tree nuts. Around two-thirds of these nuts are exported overseas, leaving massive profits for corporate titans but less water in California. Another 15% is used for alfalfa, a water-intensive crop used to feed cows on factory farms or for export. These crops have increased through the 20 year drought and have no business being grown to this scale in our arid climate. This is especially true as salmon die and over a million Californians lack access to clean water, in part due to sinking groundwater tables. That's no problem for a Saudi company that gained access to water rights in California. It exports alfalfa grown here back to Saudi Arabia to support its mega-dairies.

If that happens, it would be hard on farming communities (and on those of us who, at least occasionally, try to eat th ...


Again, I never mentioned any ban or application of force to the issues I posted.  Those are your words, your strawman.  You took offense over words and facts in an article and took that anger out on me without even asking for my own words on subject.  The only thing in my Boobies with my actual words were about mansion lawns which you completely ignored.  If you think you made no insults in any of your posts then I have news for you that you probably insult lots of people without knowing it.  I'm not mad, just mildly amused.  I hope you feel less worked up later and have a relaxing day rest of your day.
 
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