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(CBR)   JRR Tolkien hated "Dune," apparently put off by its prophecies of messianic leaders, fulfillment of ancient bloodlines, plots with ragtag band of underdogs battling massive forces of evil, characters with mystical powers, and lots and lots of walking   (cbr.com) divider line
    More: Awkward, The Lord of the Rings, J. R. R. Tolkien, important fantasy writer, Fantasy, ecological themes, Tolkien's contribution, Frank Herbert, Frank Herbert's Dune  
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1000 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 02 Apr 2022 at 8:50 PM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-04-02 5:34:29 PM  
No Eagles ex machina in Dune.
 
2022-04-02 5:50:41 PM  
He also hated Chronicles of Narnia, didn't he? Maybe he was just an asshole.
 
2022-04-02 6:04:17 PM  
Oh who cares, shut up and write the last book of game of thrones already.
 
2022-04-02 6:10:15 PM  

fatassbastard: He also hated Chronicles of Narnia, didn't he? Maybe he was just an asshole.


Well, I hate Chronicles of Narnia.  Its just such twee blatant Christology with all the subtlety of an H-bomb.  It's like Lewis was unable to understand there is parable and there is allegory, but etching things directly into the forehead of innocent bystanders with a jackhammer is right the fark out.

Also, Tolkien was a pastoral Luddite.  A story that deal with high-level politicking and that while about a feudalistic society, includes lots and lots of industrial technology would be almost anathema to his sensibilities.  And at least two of the major players were areligious while presenting themselves as religious institutions.  While he avoided religion in LotR, Tolkien would have recoiled at a story that not only had what were essentially atheists, but also atheists pretending to be devout, being presented as the competent ones.
 
2022-04-02 6:11:41 PM  

fatassbastard: He also hated Chronicles of Narnia, didn't he? Maybe he was just an asshole.


I think he just had a bunch of sand in his crack.
 
2022-04-02 6:31:31 PM  
That's quite the non-article based on one comment that was made in a letter about not liking Dune, but not wanting to go into details since he thought it would be a dick move.
 
2022-04-02 6:47:25 PM  
Something tells me that JRR probably hated the 60s in general. A good chunk of LOTR was him pining nostalgically for the rural England of pre WW1.
 
2022-04-02 6:59:04 PM  
One does not simply ride a sandworm into Mordor.
 
2022-04-02 7:01:10 PM  

IgG4: Something tells me that JRR probably hated the 60s in general. A good chunk of LOTR was him pining nostalgically for the rural England of pre WW1.


Imagine what Europe would look like today had neither of the world wars happened.
 
2022-04-02 7:16:58 PM  

studebaker hoch: IgG4: Something tells me that JRR probably hated the 60s in general. A good chunk of LOTR was him pining nostalgically for the rural England of pre WW1.

Imagine what Europe would look like today had neither of the world wars happened.


Probably the same shiatty dumb place it was before WW1.
 
2022-04-02 8:06:46 PM  
LOTR made the downtrodden Orcs the bad guys. Dune made the downtrodden Orcs the allies.
 
2022-04-02 8:21:09 PM  

fatassbastard: He also hated Chronicles of Narnia, didn't he? Maybe he was just an asshole.


Did he? He and Lewis were good friends and members of the informal literary group, the Inklings.

Just been dicking around Wikipedia for a bit trying to find out if Tolkien hated it, and the biggest wedge I could find between them is that when Lewis took up religion again, inspired by Tolkien, he chose Protestantism over Catholicism.
 
2022-04-02 9:00:34 PM  

fatassbastard: He also hated Chronicles of Narnia, didn't he? Maybe he was just an asshole.


He and C.S. Lewis were drinking buddies in the Inkling club.
 
2022-04-02 9:00:48 PM  

BumpInTheNight: Oh who cares, shut up and write the last book of game of thrones already.


Careful or Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson will finish the books and make you long for the quality of D & D.
 
2022-04-02 9:02:56 PM  

IgG4: Something tells me that JRR probably hated the 60s in general. A good chunk of LOTR was him pining nostalgically for the rural England of pre WW1.


Yeah, he definitely wanted a pastoral existence that never really never existed, much like the US attitude towards the 1950's. Hobbiton and "The Scouring of The Shire" was a pretty blatant expression of that.
 
2022-04-02 9:09:57 PM  

phalamir: fatassbastard: He also hated Chronicles of Narnia, didn't he? Maybe he was just an asshole.

Well, I hate Chronicles of Narnia.  Its just such twee blatant Christology with all the subtlety of an H-bomb.  It's like Lewis was unable to understand there is parable and there is allegory, but etching things directly into the forehead of innocent bystanders with a jackhammer is right the fark out.

Also, Tolkien was a pastoral Luddite.  A story that deal with high-level politicking and that while about a feudalistic society, includes lots and lots of industrial technology would be almost anathema to his sensibilities.  And at least two of the major players were areligious while presenting themselves as religious institutions.  While he avoided religion in LotR, Tolkien would have recoiled at a story that not only had what were essentially atheists, but also atheists pretending to be devout, being presented as the competent ones.


There's an awesome essay by Michael Moorcock called "Epic Pooh" addressing a lot of those issues - that writers like Tolkien and Lewis were thoroughly full of themselves when it came to being anti-progress, anti-urbanization, and anti-science. He basically accused them of creating their own escapism from what they personally disliked about modern society, instead of writing something that would actually break new ground or challenge their readers' imaginations.

I like a lot of Tolkien's work and admit that Moorcock wrote a few stinkers over the years, but for the most part I agree with a lot of what Moorcock says in that essay.
 
2022-04-02 9:14:05 PM  

IgG4: studebaker hoch: IgG4: Something tells me that JRR probably hated the 60s in general. A good chunk of LOTR was him pining nostalgically for the rural England of pre WW1.

Imagine what Europe would look like today had neither of the world wars happened.

Probably the same shiatty dumb place it was before WW1.


With the original buildings!

No they weren't efficient, safe, or even comfortable.    But they looked so cool.
 
2022-04-02 9:19:30 PM  

clkeagle: phalamir: fatassbastard: He also hated Chronicles of Narnia, didn't he? Maybe he was just an asshole.

Well, I hate Chronicles of Narnia.  Its just such twee blatant Christology with all the subtlety of an H-bomb.  It's like Lewis was unable to understand there is parable and there is allegory, but etching things directly into the forehead of innocent bystanders with a jackhammer is right the fark out.

Also, Tolkien was a pastoral Luddite.  A story that deal with high-level politicking and that while about a feudalistic society, includes lots and lots of industrial technology would be almost anathema to his sensibilities.  And at least two of the major players were areligious while presenting themselves as religious institutions.  While he avoided religion in LotR, Tolkien would have recoiled at a story that not only had what were essentially atheists, but also atheists pretending to be devout, being presented as the competent ones.

There's an awesome essay by Michael Moorcock called "Epic Pooh" addressing a lot of those issues - that writers like Tolkien and Lewis were thoroughly full of themselves when it came to being anti-progress, anti-urbanization, and anti-science. He basically accused them of creating their own escapism from what they personally disliked about modern society, instead of writing something that would actually break new ground or challenge their readers' imaginations.

I like a lot of Tolkien's work and admit that Moorcock wrote a few stinkers over the years, but for the most part I agree with a lot of what Moorcock says in that essay.


https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/anti-tolkien
 
2022-04-02 9:20:19 PM  

phalamir: Well, I hate Chronicles of Narnia. Its just such twee blatant Christology with all the subtlety of an H-bomb. It's like Lewis was unable to understand there is parable and there is allegory, but etching things directly into the forehead of innocent bystanders with a jackhammer is right the fark out.


Back when the movies came out, there were some Farkers who amusingly insisted the Narnia stories couldn't possibly be Christian allegories because they contained pagan mythological creatures. Essentially they loved the books but hated Christianity, and the only way they could resolve that for themselves was to pretend the spiritual messages of the series were somehow subtle or open to interpretation.
 
2022-04-02 9:21:54 PM  

EdgeRunner: phalamir: Well, I hate Chronicles of Narnia. Its just such twee blatant Christology with all the subtlety of an H-bomb. It's like Lewis was unable to understand there is parable and there is allegory, but etching things directly into the forehead of innocent bystanders with a jackhammer is right the fark out.

Back when the movies came out, there were some Farkers who amusingly insisted the Narnia stories couldn't possibly be Christian allegories because they contained pagan mythological creatures. Essentially they loved the books but hated Christianity, and the only way they could resolve that for themselves was to pretend the spiritual messages of the series were somehow subtle or open to interpretation.


Contrarians?  On Fark?

Impossible.
 
2022-04-02 9:22:03 PM  
FTA: "Nevertheless, Dune is just as important as Tolkien's works and is consistently regarded as such. "

Sorry, got to call BS on that. I love both books, but I would never consider Dune to be nearly as important as The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings.
 
2022-04-02 9:26:09 PM  

EdgeRunner: phalamir: Well, I hate Chronicles of Narnia. Its just such twee blatant Christology with all the subtlety of an H-bomb. It's like Lewis was unable to understand there is parable and there is allegory, but etching things directly into the forehead of innocent bystanders with a jackhammer is right the fark out.

Back when the movies came out, there were some Farkers who amusingly insisted the Narnia stories couldn't possibly be Christian allegories because they contained pagan mythological creatures. Essentially they loved the books but hated Christianity, and the only way they could resolve that for themselves was to pretend the spiritual messages of the series were somehow subtle or open to interpretation.


Who in their right mind would make that argument? Lewis was extremely open about what those stories were. He didn't even like them being referred to as "allegory." Aslan isn't supposed to be a vague stand-in for Jesus... he IS Jesus, just how Jesus appears in another world.
 
2022-04-02 9:29:45 PM  

Snapper Carr: EdgeRunner: phalamir: Well, I hate Chronicles of Narnia. Its just such twee blatant Christology with all the subtlety of an H-bomb. It's like Lewis was unable to understand there is parable and there is allegory, but etching things directly into the forehead of innocent bystanders with a jackhammer is right the fark out.

Back when the movies came out, there were some Farkers who amusingly insisted the Narnia stories couldn't possibly be Christian allegories because they contained pagan mythological creatures. Essentially they loved the books but hated Christianity, and the only way they could resolve that for themselves was to pretend the spiritual messages of the series were somehow subtle or open to interpretation.

Contrarians?  On Fark?

Impossible.


They weren't being contrarian. They seriously wanted everyone to know the Narnia books had nothing to do with Christianity. Absolutely nothing, you hear? Nothing!!!

There was no telling them otherwise, even though they might as well have been arguing that Starship Troopers wasn't pro-military because it was a sci-fi story with superintelligent giant bugs in it. Do real militaries go into space to fight superintelligent giant bugs? No? Well there you go then!
 
2022-04-02 9:31:32 PM  
I mean, Tolkien was big into heroic mythologies (he famously translated Beowulf in addition to writing the Rings stuff).  Dune is pretty much the opposite of that - its a deconstruction of the messiah figure.  So it's not surprising that it wouldn't be his thing.

He also would have been pretty old by the time he read Dune, so its not surprising that he wouldn't like new those new fangled types of books.
 
2022-04-02 9:33:06 PM  

studebaker hoch: One does not simply ride a sandworm into Mordor.


Unless one was a total badass.
 
2022-04-02 9:41:23 PM  

aleister_greynight: No Eagles ex machina in Dune.


Sex ninjas though
 
2022-04-02 9:42:05 PM  
who gives a shiat what jrr tolkien hated
 
2022-04-02 9:48:34 PM  
I agree. Dune is like watching paint dry.
 
2022-04-02 10:00:02 PM  

talkertopc: studebaker hoch: One does not simply ride a sandworm into Mordor.

Unless one was a total badass.


Which Frodo was not.

Sam maybe.
 
2022-04-02 10:07:20 PM  

puffy999: talkertopc: studebaker hoch: One does not simply ride a sandworm into Mordor.

Unless one was a total badass.

Which Frodo was not.

Sam maybe.


Ash: "This is my sandworm"

/no reason to limit a crossover to only two franchises.
 
2022-04-02 10:10:49 PM  

talkertopc: puffy999: talkertopc: studebaker hoch: One does not simply ride a sandworm into Mordor.

Unless one was a total badass.

Which Frodo was not.

Sam maybe.

Ash: "This is my sandworm"

/no reason to limit a crossover to only two franchises.


"You have my sword."
"And my bow.
"And my axe."
"And my BOOMSTICK!!!"
 
2022-04-02 10:11:22 PM  

talkertopc: puffy999: talkertopc: studebaker hoch: One does not simply ride a sandworm into Mordor.

Unless one was a total badass.

Which Frodo was not.

Sam maybe.

Ash: "This is my sandworm"

/no reason to limit a crossover to only two franchises.


"Listen up, you primitive spice-heads!  This is my weirding module!"
 
2022-04-02 10:14:49 PM  

iron de havilland: fatassbastard: He also hated Chronicles of Narnia, didn't he? Maybe he was just an asshole.

Did he? He and Lewis were good friends and members of the informal literary group, the Inklings.

Just been dicking around Wikipedia for a bit trying to find out if Tolkien hated it, and the biggest wedge I could find between them is that when Lewis took up religion again, inspired by Tolkien, he chose Protestantism over Catholicism.


It's been a bit since I've read Tolkien's letters, but my recollection is that while he was good friends with Lewis, he thought Narnia was over the top, ham handed allegory, and childish.
 
2022-04-02 10:25:40 PM  

puffy999: talkertopc: puffy999: talkertopc: studebaker hoch: One does not simply ride a sandworm into Mordor.

Unless one was a total badass.

Which Frodo was not.

Sam maybe.

Ash: "This is my sandworm"

/no reason to limit a crossover to only two franchises.

"You have my sword."
"And my bow.
"And my axe."
"And my BOOMSTICK!!!"


And my weirding module!

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-04-02 10:37:42 PM  

dsmith42: BumpInTheNight: Oh who cares, shut up and write the last book of game of thrones already.

Careful or Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson will finish the books and make you long for the quality of D & D.


I read one of their Dune prequels (I understand there's about 30 of them).  Hated it.  Didn't read the final two Dune books for a long time because of that.  Then I read a review that mentioned those books were written from an outline and notes from Frank Herbert's lock box.  I enjoyed them, but have no intention of trying any more of the prequels.
 
2022-04-02 10:44:05 PM  
"Lord of the Rings" is unmitigated garbage. The whole fantasy genre is garbage, frankly.

"Dune"...mostly is. I've said it before, but the "Dune" series doesn't get interesting until "God Emperor". It's too bad Herbert died before he could finish the series. His son did a *terrible* job.

I don't subscribe to the idea that "world building" is something that deserves accolades. A good writer doesn't need to spend a ton of time on that. The "world" should emerge from the characters and story, not from explicit and tedious decription. And alternate languages and weird terminology? That's pure cheese.
 
2022-04-02 10:48:22 PM  

realmolo: "Lord of the Rings" is unmitigated garbage. The whole fantasy genre is garbage, frankly.

"Dune"...mostly is. I've said it before, but the "Dune" series doesn't get interesting until "God Emperor". It's too bad Herbert died before he could finish the series. His son did a *terrible* job.

I don't subscribe to the idea that "world building" is something that deserves accolades. A good writer doesn't need to spend a ton of time on that. The "world" should emerge from the characters and story, not from explicit and tedious decription. And alternate languages and weird terminology? That's pure cheese.


Careful with those sharp edges, son. You're gonna cut yourself. Maybe you should consider some safety scissors.
 
2022-04-02 11:04:07 PM  

realmolo: "Lord of the Rings" is unmitigated garbage. The whole fantasy genre is garbage, frankly.

"Dune"...mostly is. I've said it before, but the "Dune" series doesn't get interesting until "God Emperor". It's too bad Herbert died before he could finish the series. His son did a *terrible* job.

I don't subscribe to the idea that "world building" is something that deserves accolades. A good writer doesn't need to spend a ton of time on that. The "world" should emerge from the characters and story, not from explicit and tedious decription. And alternate languages and weird terminology? That's pure cheese.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-04-02 11:04:22 PM  

realmolo: ...alternate languages and weird terminology? That's pure cheese.


Internet slang and acronyms must have you SYH and saying FML like a total OG noob on the constant, bruh.
 
2022-04-02 11:05:50 PM  
Frank Herbert's Dune is one of the most important sci-fi stories in literature

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-04-02 11:23:41 PM  

EdgeRunner: realmolo: ...alternate languages and weird terminology? That's pure cheese.

Internet slang and acronyms must have you SYH and saying FML like a total OG noob on the constant, bruh.


That is *actual real language*. It doesn't bother me.

I genuinely think the fantasy genre sucks, and that "Dune" is nothing special. They both appeal to a certain kind of reader. Readers that want everything spelled out for them, in excruciating detail.
 
2022-04-02 11:29:10 PM  

realmolo: I genuinely think the fantasy genre sucks, and that "Dune" is nothing special. They both appeal to a certain kind of reader. Readers that want everything spelled out for them, in excruciating detail.


What's a good book to you?
 
2022-04-02 11:44:14 PM  

realmolo: EdgeRunner: realmolo: ...alternate languages and weird terminology? That's pure cheese.

Internet slang and acronyms must have you SYH and saying FML like a total OG noob on the constant, bruh.

That is *actual real language*. It doesn't bother me.

I genuinely think the fantasy genre sucks, and that "Dune" is nothing special. They both appeal to a certain kind of reader. Readers that want everything spelled out for them, in excruciating detail.


You do realize a lot of *actual real language* on the Internet is derived from pop culture references like Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Marvel, etc? Jedi mind tricks, Hobbits and orcs, warp speed, Babelfish translations... All made up fantasy terms that fell into common use. If invented jargon from fiction is your kryptonite, browsing Fark headlines must hit you harder than an Avada Kedavra.
 
2022-04-02 11:56:57 PM  

iron de havilland: fatassbastard: He also hated Chronicles of Narnia, didn't he? Maybe he was just an asshole.

Did he? He and Lewis were good friends and members of the informal literary group, the Inklings.

Just been dicking around Wikipedia for a bit trying to find out if Tolkien hated it, and the biggest wedge I could find between them is that when Lewis took up religion again, inspired by Tolkien, he chose Protestantism over Catholicism.


Also, the philologist protagonist in the first two books of the Perelandra trilogy was about 50/50 Tolkien and Lewis.
 
2022-04-03 12:14:14 AM  

aleister_greynight: No Eagles ex machina in Dune.


Just Dei Ex Condimento.
 
2022-04-03 12:36:34 AM  

maxheck: iron de havilland: fatassbastard: He also hated Chronicles of Narnia, didn't he? Maybe he was just an asshole.

Did he? He and Lewis were good friends and members of the informal literary group, the Inklings.

Just been dicking around Wikipedia for a bit trying to find out if Tolkien hated it, and the biggest wedge I could find between them is that when Lewis took up religion again, inspired by Tolkien, he chose Protestantism over Catholicism.

Also, the philologist protagonist in the first two books of the Perelandra trilogy was about 50/50 Tolkien and Lewis.


Yes, they were friends/colleagues, I just recall reading a long time ago that Tolkien wasn't a Narnia fan. This author seems to have the same idea:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/11/21/prisoner-of-narnia

Tolkien hated the Narnia books, despite Lewis's avid sponsorship of Tolkien's own mythology, because he hated to see an imagination constrained by the allegorical impulse.

(Plus, my initial comment was mostly just a wisecrack on a thread that wasn't yet green.)
 
2022-04-03 12:54:49 AM  
Why does anyone care about this?
 
2022-04-03 1:00:17 AM  

wiredroach: realmolo: I genuinely think the fantasy genre sucks, and that "Dune" is nothing special. They both appeal to a certain kind of reader. Readers that want everything spelled out for them, in excruciating detail.

What's a good book to you?


The Culture series (except for "Matter"). The Vorkosigan books (up to and including "A Civil Campaign"). "The Forever War". "Fire Upon The Deep" is pretty good (unlike most people, I didn't like the sequel all that much). "The Stars My Destination". "Neuromancer" (though the rest of the trilogy was lame). I think Philip K. Dick was really good, but too depressing for me to revisit very often. I like "Snow Crash" a lot, though I haven't liked any of Stephenson's other stuff, primarily because he go to into the whole "world-building" crap.

And like i said, I enjoyed the last 3 Frank Herbert-penned "Dune" books well-enough.
 
2022-04-03 1:02:50 AM  

real_headhoncho: Why does anyone care about this?


It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it.

Faith no More-We Care A Lot 4k Video Remaster
Youtube cm7kTCyJTzs
 
2022-04-03 1:12:29 AM  

fatassbastard: maxheck: iron de havilland: fatassbastard: He also hated Chronicles of Narnia, didn't he? Maybe he was just an asshole.

Did he? He and Lewis were good friends and members of the informal literary group, the Inklings.

Just been dicking around Wikipedia for a bit trying to find out if Tolkien hated it, and the biggest wedge I could find between them is that when Lewis took up religion again, inspired by Tolkien, he chose Protestantism over Catholicism.

Also, the philologist protagonist in the first two books of the Perelandra trilogy was about 50/50 Tolkien and Lewis.

Yes, they were friends/colleagues, I just recall reading a long time ago that Tolkien wasn't a Narnia fan. This author seems to have the same idea:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/11/21/prisoner-of-narnia

Tolkien hated the Narnia books, despite Lewis's avid sponsorship of Tolkien's own mythology, because he hated to see an imagination constrained by the allegorical impulse.

(Plus, my initial comment was mostly just a wisecrack on a thread that wasn't yet green.)


Just as an aside, I had the complete Narnia Chronicles early on, but the one the one I kept going back to was "The Magician's Nephew." Specifically the description of the much older sunset world of Charn and Empress Jadis.

Nertz to the Xtian fanfic parts of the Chronicles.


"Make your choice, adventurous stranger,
ring the bell and bide the danger,
or wonder 'till it drives you mad;
What would have happened, if you had."
 
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