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(Screen Rant)   Retroactively rearranging reality to fit your perspective isn't limited to politics   (screenrant.com) divider line
    More: Silly, Star Wars, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, Anakin Skywalker, Darth Vader, Jedi, Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, George Lucas' decision  
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1272 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 30 Mar 2022 at 8:55 AM (18 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-03-30 6:28:45 AM  
Clearly the author isn't a Doctor Who fan.
 
2022-03-30 9:02:27 AM  
Star Wars ain't reality, subby.
 
2022-03-30 9:08:18 AM  

bbmaru: Star Wars ain't reality, subby.


Star Wars films are, though.
 
2022-03-30 9:28:01 AM  
So because some author wrote a prequel novel to the sequel trilogy (which by itself is an abomination, but I digress) that hamfists Anakin's ghost into a fight against "Sith phantoms" it now makes logical sense that Hayden Christian's Anakin shows up as the force ghost in Jedi?

Not sure what definitions of logically and sense this person is using, but they aren't the ones in the dictionary.
 
2022-03-30 10:02:30 AM  
Wow, TFA is a mess.

This is just another appearance of Anakin as a force ghost. It doesn't explain or justify anything.

Also, this excerpt doesn't introduce the idea that a character's story can continue after death. Kenobi converses with Yoda, he isn't just an observer.

Basically, a new SW book comes out and rabid fanboi pulls a bunch of malarkey out of their butt.
 
2022-03-30 10:26:19 AM  

Copperbelly watersnake: So because some author wrote a prequel novel to the sequel trilogy (which by itself is an abomination, but I digress) that hamfists Anakin's ghost into a fight against "Sith phantoms" it now makes logical sense that Hayden Christian's Anakin shows up as the force ghost in Jedi?

Not sure what definitions of logically and sense this person is using, but they aren't the ones in the dictionary.


This establishes the retroactive continuity that Anakin's Force Ghost ALWAYS resembled Hayden Christiansen, and never mind that for 20 years he looked like Sebastian Shaw on film.

I'm not really sure how something which happens LATER (this new book happens after Luke sees some emodouche ghost hanging out with Ben and Yoda's ghosts after destroying the second Death Star) establishes this, but the authors have spoken.
 
2022-03-30 11:04:09 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Copperbelly watersnake: So because some author wrote a prequel novel to the sequel trilogy (which by itself is an abomination, but I digress) that hamfists Anakin's ghost into a fight against "Sith phantoms" it now makes logical sense that Hayden Christian's Anakin shows up as the force ghost in Jedi?

Not sure what definitions of logically and sense this person is using, but they aren't the ones in the dictionary.

This establishes the retroactive continuity that Anakin's Force Ghost ALWAYS resembled Hayden Christiansen, and never mind that for 20 years he looked like Sebastian Shaw on film.

I'm not really sure how something which happens LATER (this new book happens after Luke sees some emodouche ghost hanging out with Ben and Yoda's ghosts after destroying the second Death Star) establishes this, but the authors have spoken.


How long until Lucas goes back and starts jamming Ben Solo's force ghost in places it didn't used to be?
 
2022-03-30 11:39:59 AM  
That terrible developer who didn't QA their code is my new hero.
 
2022-03-30 11:50:57 AM  
It always made sense to have Hayden Christiansen. It was awkward if you were expecting Sebastian Shaw, but it still made more sense.
 
2022-03-30 12:12:07 PM  

Chemlight Battery: It always made sense to have Hayden Christiansen. It was awkward if you were expecting Sebastian Shaw, but it still made more sense.


No, it wrecked the scene. We'd never seen Sebastian Shaw before, so we could believe he represented the good version of Anakin. Hayden's Anakin was always a creepy douche, so if the logic was that he'd reverted to his last moment as a good person, his Force ghost should have been Jake Lloyd yelling "Wizard!"
 
2022-03-30 12:17:27 PM  
Retcons are how a third of Star Wars lore exists.  See: anything involving the Kessel Run
 
2022-03-30 12:26:43 PM  

EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: It always made sense to have Hayden Christiansen. It was awkward if you were expecting Sebastian Shaw, but it still made more sense.

No, it wrecked the scene. We'd never seen Sebastian Shaw before, so we could believe he represented the good version of Anakin. Hayden's Anakin was always a creepy douche, so if the logic was that he'd reverted to his last moment as a good person, his Force ghost should have been Jake Lloyd yelling "Wizard!"


Think of it as a Matrix-style residual self image. The ghost takes the form of how the character sees himself, not how the beholder might imagine him. At no point did Anakin ever look like the old Sebastian Shaw ghost.
 
2022-03-30 12:52:55 PM  

Chemlight Battery: EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: It always made sense to have Hayden Christiansen. It was awkward if you were expecting Sebastian Shaw, but it still made more sense.

No, it wrecked the scene. We'd never seen Sebastian Shaw before, so we could believe he represented the good version of Anakin. Hayden's Anakin was always a creepy douche, so if the logic was that he'd reverted to his last moment as a good person, his Force ghost should have been Jake Lloyd yelling "Wizard!"

Think of it as a Matrix-style residual self image. The ghost takes the form of how the character sees himself, not how the beholder might imagine him. At no point did Anakin ever look like the old Sebastian Shaw ghost.


Sure he did. He just didn't have hair or a spotless complexion. We all recognized him as the same actor we'd seen moments ago in the Vader suit. If we're going to get pedantic about it, classic Vader never looked like Hayden Christensen, because Hayden was only about two years old when ROTJ came out and hadn't even considered becoming an actor yet. (Still hadn't decided that while he was making the prequels, either.)

But if you go with Lucas logic and accept that sure, Hayden represents younger Anakin, it still looks wrong. Because even if you use the excuse of "Oh, he reverted to his better self", it doesn't make sense that Obi Wan and Yoda didn't de-age their ghosts as well. They want to spend their afterlife as creaky old guys with bad knees and stiff backs when they don't have to? That's their idealized vision of themselves? Sorry, but if Anakin's going to be rewound to Hayden, Obi Wan should look like Guinness did in The Man in the White Suit, and Yoda should be a lot more bright-eyed and spry.
 
2022-03-30 1:02:27 PM  

EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: It always made sense to have Hayden Christiansen. It was awkward if you were expecting Sebastian Shaw, but it still made more sense.

No, it wrecked the scene. We'd never seen Sebastian Shaw before, so we could believe he represented the good version of Anakin. Hayden's Anakin was always a creepy douche, so if the logic was that he'd reverted to his last moment as a good person, his Force ghost should have been Jake Lloyd yelling "Wizard!"

Think of it as a Matrix-style residual self image. The ghost takes the form of how the character sees himself, not how the beholder might imagine him. At no point did Anakin ever look like the old Sebastian Shaw ghost.

Sure he did. He just didn't have hair or a spotless complexion. We all recognized him as the same actor we'd seen moments ago in the Vader suit. If we're going to get pedantic about it, classic Vader never looked like Hayden Christensen, because Hayden was only about two years old when ROTJ came out and hadn't even considered becoming an actor yet. (Still hadn't decided that while he was making the prequels, either.)

But if you go with Lucas logic and accept that sure, Hayden represents younger Anakin, it still looks wrong. Because even if you use the excuse of "Oh, he reverted to his better self", it doesn't make sense that Obi Wan and Yoda didn't de-age their ghosts as well. They want to spend their afterlife as creaky old guys with bad knees and stiff backs when they don't have to? That's their idealized vision of themselves? Sorry, but if Anakin's going to be rewound to Hayden, Obi Wan should look like Guinness did in The Man in the White Suit, and Yoda should be a lot more bright-eyed and spry.


I don't understand your logic. If it's a residual self image, it would make sense that Obi Wan and Yoda saw themselves the way they were at an older age, but Anakin, whose body was mostly destroyed and replaced with robot parts, and who spent the last few decades in a life support suit, carries that self image of his younger self right before he was turned into a crispy critter. I didn't read the article, so I don't know anything about this magic "reverting back" thing you keep talking about. I just see it as the ghost's form representing how the dead Jedi sees himself in his own mind's eye.
 
2022-03-30 1:10:14 PM  

Chemlight Battery: EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: It always made sense to have Hayden Christiansen. It was awkward if you were expecting Sebastian Shaw, but it still made more sense.

No, it wrecked the scene. We'd never seen Sebastian Shaw before, so we could believe he represented the good version of Anakin. Hayden's Anakin was always a creepy douche, so if the logic was that he'd reverted to his last moment as a good person, his Force ghost should have been Jake Lloyd yelling "Wizard!"

Think of it as a Matrix-style residual self image. The ghost takes the form of how the character sees himself, not how the beholder might imagine him. At no point did Anakin ever look like the old Sebastian Shaw ghost.

Sure he did. He just didn't have hair or a spotless complexion. We all recognized him as the same actor we'd seen moments ago in the Vader suit. If we're going to get pedantic about it, classic Vader never looked like Hayden Christensen, because Hayden was only about two years old when ROTJ came out and hadn't even considered becoming an actor yet. (Still hadn't decided that while he was making the prequels, either.)

But if you go with Lucas logic and accept that sure, Hayden represents younger Anakin, it still looks wrong. Because even if you use the excuse of "Oh, he reverted to his better self", it doesn't make sense that Obi Wan and Yoda didn't de-age their ghosts as well. They want to spend their afterlife as creaky old guys with bad knees and stiff backs when they don't have to? That's their idealized vision of themselves? Sorry, but if Anakin's going to be rewound to Hayden, Obi Wan should look like Guinness did in The Man in the White Suit, and Yoda should be a lot more bright-eyed and spry.

I don't understand your logic. If it's a residual self image, it would make sense that Obi Wan and Yoda saw themselves the way they were at an older age, but Anakin, whose body was mostly destroyed and replaced with robot parts, and who spent the last few decades in a life support suit, carries that self image of his younger self right before he was turned into a crispy critter. I didn't read the article, so I don't know anything about this magic "reverting back" thing you keep talking about. I just see it as the ghost's form representing how the dead Jedi sees himself in his own mind's eye.


After spending years in that suit, his residual image would be him in the suit. That's what's been staring back at him in the mirror for most of his life. Flipping back to Hayden might work for you, but visually it was the wrong call. Seeing the scarred Sebastian Shaw appear at the end all renewed but still matching the "this is who I was when I died" theme made for a clean, consistent vision of how Force ghosts work. Shoehorning in Hayden just to provide a link to the prequels wasn't clean or consistent. It raised unnecessary questions that distracted from the moment, and that's clumsy filmmaking.
 
2022-03-30 1:10:24 PM  

Chemlight Battery: I just see it as the ghost's form representing how the dead Jedi sees himself in his own mind's eye.


So Anakin would rather see himself as the punk who killed younglings and betrayed his friends (not to mention the woman he loved) than as the redeemed father of the savior of the Jedi galaxy?

That seems weird, especially if we're going with the redemption arc.

// also weird that Obi-Wan would stay as an old man regretful of (the Anakin parts of) his life, and not the bright-eyed hopeful new Jedi who would train The Prophesied One
// although that was right after Qui-Gon got bisected, so maybe he was still sad about that then, and instead chose a form for his FG from when he had already accepted both that loss and Anakin's?
 
2022-03-30 1:40:12 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Chemlight Battery: I just see it as the ghost's form representing how the dead Jedi sees himself in his own mind's eye.

So Anakin would rather see himself as the punk who killed younglings and betrayed his friends (not to mention the woman he loved) than as the redeemed father of the savior of the Jedi galaxy?

That seems weird, especially if we're going with the redemption arc.

// also weird that Obi-Wan would stay as an old man regretful of (the Anakin parts of) his life, and not the bright-eyed hopeful new Jedi who would train The Prophesied One
// although that was right after Qui-Gon got bisected, so maybe he was still sad about that then, and instead chose a form for his FG from when he had already accepted both that loss and Anakin's?


I would rather see myself as the very physically fit 25 year old that I used to be instead of the late-30's fatass with an accumulation of injuries that force me to walk with the help of a cane. But I don't think that's how that self-image works. You make it sound like they filled out a form to select preferences from a list immediately after death. I don't think that's how it happened. I think it makes sense that Anakin's self image looks the way it did before his body was burned up and locked in a life support system. I'm not so sure Anakin has ever even seen his own face since then.
 
2022-03-30 2:09:21 PM  

Chemlight Battery: I would rather see myself as the very physically fit 25 year old that I used to be instead of the late-30's fatass with an accumulation of injuries that force me to walk with the help of a cane.


Which suggests that Yoda and Obi-Wan saw themselves as old decrepits; unlike Anakin, who only saw his mid-20s self.

I understand that Yoda and Ben would have visually seen themselves as old men where Anakin wouldn't have, but that still implies some kind of "choice" in your FG avatar, even if it's just the last time you saw your own face. Which brings up a related question - did we ever see ANY mirrors in the SW universe?

// I guess it's lucky Sebby Shaw never got near a reflective surface during his only scene, since that now allows for Christiansen to be his FG
// it was a stupid vanity change that Lucas made for the DVD rerelease, that they've now had to bend over backwards to try and explain in a way that doesn't make it even stupider
// and for me, the whole point is that the older version of Anakin is the closest version to the Platonic Ideal of Anakin Skywalker - free from the hate and shame and anger and resentment and regret of his past, free to look hopefully forward (to the next generation[s] of Jedi)
 
2022-03-30 2:29:27 PM  

Dr Dreidel: it was a stupid vanity change that Lucas made for the DVD rerelease, that they've now had to bend over backwards to try and explain in a way that doesn't make it even stupider


Okay, but it requires a lot less bending over backwards than trying to explain Sebastian Shaw now that the prequels exist.

Before the prequels existed, we all understood that FG Sebastian Shaw represented what Anakin looked like before he ended up in the suit. There was no debate over that.

But since the prequels do exist, it takes a lot of weird explanation to justify why Anakin should look like something that never existed and that he literally never looked like at any point in his life, ever.

If you're watching Star Wars 1 to 6 for the first time, especially if you watch them in that order, that scene--the final scene in that whole arc--is ruined by Sebastian "Who the F*ck Is This Guy" Shaw.
 
2022-03-30 2:42:46 PM  
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2022-03-30 2:43:58 PM  

Chemlight Battery: Dr Dreidel: it was a stupid vanity change that Lucas made for the DVD rerelease, that they've now had to bend over backwards to try and explain in a way that doesn't make it even stupider

Okay, but it requires a lot less bending over backwards than trying to explain Sebastian Shaw now that the prequels exist.

Before the prequels existed, we all understood that FG Sebastian Shaw represented what Anakin looked like before he ended up in the suit. There was no debate over that.

But since the prequels do exist, it takes a lot of weird explanation to justify why Anakin should look like something that never existed and that he literally never looked like at any point in his life, ever.

If you're watching Star Wars 1 to 6 for the first time, especially if you watch them in that order, that scene--the final scene in that whole arc--is ruined by Sebastian "Who the F*ck Is This Guy" Shaw.


Um, Sebastian Shaw was the actor who plays the unmasked Darth Vader at the end of RotJ - we see that incarnation of him literally 5 minutes (or less?) of screen time before his Force Ghost shows up. If your reaction to seeing him in the original untouched trilogy is "who the fark is this guy", your problem may be more with object permanence or facial recognition.

Luke, who had only laid eyes on dear-ol' dad as either Black Menace or as Old Crustyface, would have no idea who the twentysomething hanging out with his old-ass mentors are, making his smile reaction also seem a bit out of place. I guess you could say that Luke knew who it was "because the Force", but that's less satisfactory than just keeping Shaw as Anakin's Force Ghost - besides, if they wanted to just sweep things under the rug like that, why bother at all with these increasingly dumb explanations?

// Luke's not a total idiot, so he'd probably figure it out
// given half an hour or so, and probably some help from Leia
 
2022-03-30 2:48:24 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Chemlight Battery: Dr Dreidel: it was a stupid vanity change that Lucas made for the DVD rerelease, that they've now had to bend over backwards to try and explain in a way that doesn't make it even stupider

Okay, but it requires a lot less bending over backwards than trying to explain Sebastian Shaw now that the prequels exist.

Before the prequels existed, we all understood that FG Sebastian Shaw represented what Anakin looked like before he ended up in the suit. There was no debate over that.

But since the prequels do exist, it takes a lot of weird explanation to justify why Anakin should look like something that never existed and that he literally never looked like at any point in his life, ever.

If you're watching Star Wars 1 to 6 for the first time, especially if you watch them in that order, that scene--the final scene in that whole arc--is ruined by Sebastian "Who the F*ck Is This Guy" Shaw.

Um, Sebastian Shaw was the actor who plays the unmasked Darth Vader at the end of RotJ - we see that incarnation of him literally 5 minutes (or less?) of screen time before his Force Ghost shows up. If your reaction to seeing him in the original untouched trilogy is "who the fark is this guy", your problem may be more with object permanence or facial recognition.

Luke, who had only laid eyes on dear-ol' dad as either Black Menace or as Old Crustyface, would have no idea who the twentysomething hanging out with his old-ass mentors are, making his smile reaction also seem a bit out of place. I guess you could say that Luke knew who it was "because the Force", but that's less satisfactory than just keeping Shaw as Anakin's Force Ghost - besides, if they wanted to just sweep things under the rug like that, why bother at all with these increasingly dumb explanations?

// Luke's not a total idiot, so he'd probably figure it out
// given half an hour or so, and probably some help from Leia


The point is that we all agreed before the prequels that the image was what Anakin looked like before he was in the suit. Putting Hayden Christiansen there keeps the original explanation intact. Keeping Sebastian Shaw forces you to retrofit the scene and the lore with a whole new explanation.
 
2022-03-30 3:08:21 PM  

Chemlight Battery: Keeping Sebastian Shaw forces you to retrofit the scene and the lore with a whole new explanation.


There was no "original explanation" - we're just sort of led to the idea that Force Ghosts exist (Ben telling Luke to "run!" right after the duel with Vader; then him actually showing up for a full conversation in Empire - matter of fact, in the first trilogy, isn't Ben the only FG that actually speaks?), and that's it.

We get a line in RotS about Yoda's "new training" for Obi-Wan, heavily implied to be Force Ghost training (taught to him by Qui-Gon; whom we never see as a Force Ghost right?), but no actual information on the nature of the training or practice. And every time we see a Force Ghost (except, now, Hayden Christiansen), it's as the person was when they died.

So anything else you assumed about the nature of Force Ghosts is just that (I'm leaving out the books and such, because I haven't read them) - the films themselves are woefully short on explanation.

// also, if this special knowledge was taught to Yoda by Qui-Gon (and then by Yoda to Obi-Wan), how the fark does Vader learn to become a Force Ghost?
// and in a world where nothing Sith resembles anything Jedi, why would Anakin/Vader's (Sith-trained) Force Ghost resemble a Jedi's? is that also "because the Force [is blue for Jedi and red for Sith, and Anakin's a Jedi again]?"
// and if THAT's the case, why wouldn't Anakin's (redeemed) FG now resemble the Jedi he wound up as and not the Sith he'd been for decades?
// overthinking things? on MY fark?
 
2022-03-30 3:12:05 PM  
I'll also point out that Sebastian Shaw was 79(older than Alec Guinness?!) when he played Force Ghost Anakin whereas actual Anakin would have been about 47.

Should just cut Hayden into the helmet removal scene tbh.

Anyway, it's not that important and the novel is using "Hayden's image" because that's what is canon.  It's not a retcon or a justification.  Its following the outcome of the story as it has already been told.
 
2022-03-30 3:43:31 PM  
So many words about such a bad trilogy.
 
2022-03-30 5:00:54 PM  

Chemlight Battery: The point is that we all agreed before the prequels that the image was what Anakin looked like before he was in the suit. Putting Hayden Christiansen there keeps the original explanation intact. Keeping Sebastian Shaw forces you to retrofit the scene and the lore with a whole new explanation.


You don't see how hilariously ironic this statement is, apparently. Putting Hayden in the scene was the retrofit. Sebastian Shaw was the original explanation. No one was confused by the scene as it was first depicted, and no one was confused by it even after seeing the prequels. It didn't take a huge mental leap to accept that Shaw was the older Anakin, and if you're arguing that it can't work now because he didn't look like an older Hayden Christensen, you'll have to explain why you're able to accept Hayden at all since he looks nothing like an older Jake Lloyd.
 
2022-03-30 5:20:23 PM  

EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: The point is that we all agreed before the prequels that the image was what Anakin looked like before he was in the suit. Putting Hayden Christiansen there keeps the original explanation intact. Keeping Sebastian Shaw forces you to retrofit the scene and the lore with a whole new explanation.

You don't see how hilariously ironic this statement is, apparently. Putting Hayden in the scene was the retrofit. Sebastian Shaw was the original explanation. No one was confused by the scene as it was first depicted, and no one was confused by it even after seeing the prequels. It didn't take a huge mental leap to accept that Shaw was the older Anakin, and if you're arguing that it can't work now because he didn't look like an older Hayden Christensen, you'll have to explain why you're able to accept Hayden at all since he looks nothing like an older Jake Lloyd.


You still aren't seeing my point. It's not your fault. I blame myself. I've typed it half a dozen times now, and as far as I can tell, you are still arguing against a point I'm not making. I don't know how to explain it any better. That's my failure. I own it. So I guess I'll just go on liking what you don't like.
 
2022-03-30 5:36:58 PM  

Chemlight Battery: You still aren't seeing my point. It's not your fault. I blame myself. I've typed it half a dozen times now, and as far as I can tell, you are still arguing against a point I'm not making. I don't know how to explain it any better. That's my failure. I own it. So I guess I'll just go on liking what you don't like.


I think I am seeing your point, but you're not seeing mine. The OT shows us that Force ghosts look like that particular person (or Muppet) at their moment of death. There doesn't appear to be any choice or fluidity to it. At Vader's moment of death, he looks like Sebastian Shaw, so the established visual shorthand says his ghost should look like Sebastian Shaw. But by retroactively replacing him two decades later with a young Hayden Christensen, now when his ghost joins Obi Wan and Yoda at the end of ROTJ, the scene became a needlessly distracting "one of these things is not like the others" moment. You can justify practically anything in Star Wars lore by inventing your own reasons why the Force just works that way, but none of that changes that it was an unnecessary violation of the language of visual storytelling. You can talk yourself into liking it, but it's still a bad edit. Most of the Special Edition changes were.
 
2022-03-30 5:45:26 PM  

EdgeRunner: I think I am seeing your point, but you're not seeing mine. The OT shows us that Force ghosts look like that particular person (or Muppet) at their moment of death. There doesn't appear to be any choice or fluidity to it.


See, this is how I know you don't see my point. I'm not saying there's choice. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite. It's left me very confused as to why you and the other poster keep trying to make that connection.
 
2022-03-30 6:03:58 PM  

Chemlight Battery: EdgeRunner: I think I am seeing your point, but you're not seeing mine. The OT shows us that Force ghosts look like that particular person (or Muppet) at their moment of death. There doesn't appear to be any choice or fluidity to it.

See, this is how I know you don't see my point. I'm not saying there's choice. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite. It's left me very confused as to why you and the other poster keep trying to make that connection.


It doesn't matter whether you interpret Anakin's ghost looking like Hayden as something he chose or as his spirit taking the form he last remembered seeing. (Which canonically still would have been Shaw's face. When he sat in his meditation pod or whatever and popped the top off his helmet, he was supposedly trying to channel the Force into healing his wounds, and he spent long hours checking his Shawface for any improvements. He could achieve very temporary changes, so while he could never hold them for more than a minute or two, he would have briefly seen himself without the scars and sallow skin. He'd have that picture very firmly in mind, in fact, because it was a prime goal for him to achieve that appearance. However, we'll ignore all of that because it isn't explicitly stated in the movies themselves.) You're still explaining the scene to yourself using fan theories. I'm talking about establishing a simple visual pattern that doesn't detract from the real message of the scene, that of Luke seeing his father redeemed. He's never seen Hayden, just Shaw, so the logical choice is to bring back the visage that Luke would recognize. Swapping him out just complicated what should be a very quick and simple moment, and for no particularly good reason other than Lucas wanted a tighter connection with the prequels.

For it to truly work, then yes, he needed to replace Shaw in the unmasking scene with Hayden as well, and throw some aging makeup on him so he was more in sync with the older Kenobi and Yoda. Either go all the way with it or leave it alone.
 
2022-03-30 6:12:43 PM  

EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: EdgeRunner: I think I am seeing your point, but you're not seeing mine. The OT shows us that Force ghosts look like that particular person (or Muppet) at their moment of death. There doesn't appear to be any choice or fluidity to it.

See, this is how I know you don't see my point. I'm not saying there's choice. In fact, I've said precisely the opposite. It's left me very confused as to why you and the other poster keep trying to make that connection.

It doesn't matter whether you interpret Anakin's ghost looking like Hayden as something he chose or as his spirit taking the form he last remembered seeing. (Which canonically still would have been Shaw's face. When he sat in his meditation pod or whatever and popped the top off his helmet, he was supposedly trying to channel the Force into healing his wounds, and he spent long hours checking his Shawface for any improvements. He could achieve very temporary changes, so while he could never hold them for more than a minute or two, he would have briefly seen himself without the scars and sallow skin. He'd have that picture very firmly in mind, in fact, because it was a prime goal for him to achieve that appearance. However, we'll ignore all of that because it isn't explicitly stated in the movies themselves.) You're still explaining the scene to yourself using fan theories. I'm talking about establishing a simple visual pattern that doesn't detract from the real message of the scene, that of Luke seeing his father redeemed. He's never seen Hayden, just Shaw, so the logical choice is to bring back the visage that Luke would recognize. Swapping him out just complicated what should be a very quick and simple moment, and for no particularly good reason other than Lucas wanted a tighter connection with the prequels.

For it to truly work, then yes, he needed to replace Shaw in the unmasking scene with Hayden as well, and throw some aging makeup on him so he was more in sync with the older Kenobi and Yoda. Either go all the way with it or leave it alone.


*sigh* Okay, fine. You win. Shaw makes perfect sense. The only thing left to wonder is who is his barber in the afterlife, since he never wore that hairstyle in life.
 
2022-03-30 6:29:26 PM  

Chemlight Battery: *sigh* Okay, fine. You win. Shaw makes perfect sense. The only thing left to wonder is who is his barber in the afterlife, since he never wore that hairstyle in life.


Again, not something that was visually confusing for anyone, and easily handwaved away with "This was his true self that was trapped in the Vader suit, Force knows all, blah blah blah". As the redeemed Anakin, we expect to see him restored as well.

But we're not expecting Hayden, because Hayden isn't who we see under the mask. Luke shouldn't be expecting him either. You want him as the ghost, you put him in the unmasking scene too and make him look older. Because the confusion also goes in reverse, y'know. Shaw doesn't look or sound anything like Christensen, so if it's important to replace him in the finale, it's important to replace him completely.
 
2022-03-30 6:56:10 PM  

EdgeRunner: Again, not something that was visually confusing for anyone, and easily handwaved away with "This was his true self that was trapped in the Vader suit, Force knows all, blah blah blah".


All your mocking of ridiculous explanations, and then you land on this.

So you find it silly that I handwave Anakin looking like a younger version of himself, and I find it silly that you handwave Anakin looking like a make-believe version of his older self. That's what this all comes down to.
 
2022-03-30 7:09:33 PM  

Chemlight Battery: EdgeRunner: Again, not something that was visually confusing for anyone, and easily handwaved away with "This was his true self that was trapped in the Vader suit, Force knows all, blah blah blah".

All your mocking of ridiculous explanations, and then you land on this.

So you find it silly that I handwave Anakin looking like a younger version of himself, and I find it silly that you handwave Anakin looking like a make-believe version of his older self. That's what this all comes down to.


No, it comes down to the established visual of Force ghosts appearing the way they did at their moment of death. The setup of the unmasking scene leads directly to the payoff of the ghosts taking their bows at the end, which is a very quick coda that's not meant to inform us of anything besides "Luke won, he saved his father, Anakin was redeemed". It's not meant to raise any questions about how Luke recognizes young Anakin, why is Anakin's ghost de-aged, why doesn't every Jedi ghost look like their personal self-image, etc, etc. All of that clutters and detracts.

The simple fact is that changing the ghost scene without also changing the unmasking scene is a mistake. They're a connected pair of scenes that need to match, and taking issue with the actor swap is valid. Going "Okay, well what about his hairstyle then, huh?" is just petty nitpicking to avoid the actual problem with the edit.
 
2022-03-30 7:26:21 PM  

EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: EdgeRunner: Again, not something that was visually confusing for anyone, and easily handwaved away with "This was his true self that was trapped in the Vader suit, Force knows all, blah blah blah".

All your mocking of ridiculous explanations, and then you land on this.

So you find it silly that I handwave Anakin looking like a younger version of himself, and I find it silly that you handwave Anakin looking like a make-believe version of his older self. That's what this all comes down to.

No, it comes down to the established visual of Force ghosts appearing the way they did at their moment of death. The setup of the unmasking scene leads directly to the payoff of the ghosts taking their bows at the end, which is a very quick coda that's not meant to inform us of anything besides "Luke won, he saved his father, Anakin was redeemed". It's not meant to raise any questions about how Luke recognizes young Anakin, why is Anakin's ghost de-aged, why doesn't every Jedi ghost look like their personal self-image, etc, etc. All of that clutters and detracts.

The simple fact is that changing the ghost scene without also changing the unmasking scene is a mistake. They're a connected pair of scenes that need to match, and taking issue with the actor swap is valid. Going "Okay, well what about his hairstyle then, huh?" is just petty nitpicking to avoid the actual problem with the edit.


But his force ghost didn't look the way he did when he died. Not at all. I don't know why you keep saying this when it is so obviously and demonstrably not true, and then you just "handwave" away all the very clear differences between the way he looked when he died and the way his force ghost looked. At no point did Anakin ever look like the original force ghost. Not in life. Not at the time he died. Not ever. It's right there on the film in full color. He's got a full head of hair, no scars, etc. And you "handwave" that away with some kind of BS hokus pokus about "the Force knows all" or something. So is it the unbreakable rule that he should look the way that he looked when he died, or is it something else? Because you seem to want to have it both ways.
 
2022-03-30 8:01:12 PM  

Chemlight Battery: But his force ghost didn't look the way he did when he died. Not at all. I don't know why you keep saying this when it is so obviously and demonstrably not true, and then you just "handwave" away all the very clear differences between the way he looked when he died and the way his force ghost looked. At no point did Anakin ever look like the original force ghost. Not in life. Not at the time he died. Not ever. It's right there on the film in full color. He's got a full head of hair, no scars, etc. And you "handwave" that away with some kind of BS hokus pokus about "the Force knows all" or something. So is it the unbreakable rule that he should look the way that he looked when he died, or is it something else? Because you seem to want to have it both ways.


Anything involving the Force is BS hocus pocus, and it's all you've got to support the idea that the ghost should look like young Hayden. In Shaw's case, it wasn't that complicated and it followed the rules of good cinema.

Up until ROTJ, Vader had never been seen without his helmet on. Shaw was brought in to play the unmasked Anakin, both in the suit and as a ghost. In the suit, he's pale and scarred as we expected him to look, but for his appearance as a reformed spirit, he's unscarred and wearing Jedi robes. It's an immediately understandable way of showing the audience he'd been healed of his past by literally removing the scars and his imprisoning life support suit. Everyone got it. Little kids got it. There's nothing confusing about the obvious visual metaphor of Anakin's ghost being physically whole and no longer dressed as Vader.

But having different actors in the unmasking scene and the ghost scene is confusing, because it's too drastic a change. No matter how you want to explain it, switching the payoff but not the setup is dropping the ball. There's a very basic throughline of keeping the same actor in both moments, and if you change one you have to change both. And I think you get that. You're just being stubborn about it because you prefer the Hayden ending. No biggie, obviously Lucas does too. The only problem is he half-assed it, and I'm not sure why he didn't go back and fix that too. He took out the owl-eyed Emperor in ESB and replaced him with new scenes of McDiarmid's version. Dropping Hayden's face into the unmasking scene wouldn't have been all that much harder.
 
2022-03-30 8:27:31 PM  

EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: But his force ghost didn't look the way he did when he died. Not at all. I don't know why you keep saying this when it is so obviously and demonstrably not true, and then you just "handwave" away all the very clear differences between the way he looked when he died and the way his force ghost looked. At no point did Anakin ever look like the original force ghost. Not in life. Not at the time he died. Not ever. It's right there on the film in full color. He's got a full head of hair, no scars, etc. And you "handwave" that away with some kind of BS hokus pokus about "the Force knows all" or something. So is it the unbreakable rule that he should look the way that he looked when he died, or is it something else? Because you seem to want to have it both ways.

Anything involving the Force is BS hocus pocus, and it's all you've got to support the idea that the ghost should look like young Hayden. In Shaw's case, it wasn't that complicated and it followed the rules of good cinema.

Up until ROTJ, Vader had never been seen without his helmet on. Shaw was brought in to play the unmasked Anakin, both in the suit and as a ghost. In the suit, he's pale and scarred as we expected him to look, but for his appearance as a reformed spirit, he's unscarred and wearing Jedi robes. It's an immediately understandable way of showing the audience he'd been healed of his past by literally removing the scars and his imprisoning life support suit. Everyone got it. Little kids got it. There's nothing confusing about the obvious visual metaphor of Anakin's ghost being physically whole and no longer dressed as Vader.

But having different actors in the unmasking scene and the ghost scene is confusing, because it's too drastic a change. No matter how you want to explain it, switching the payoff but not the setup is dropping the ball. There's a very basic throughline of keeping the same actor in both moments, and if you change one you have to change both. And I think you get that. You're just being stubborn about it because you prefer the Hayden ending. No biggie, obviously Lucas does too. The only problem is he half-assed it, and I'm not sure why he didn't go back and fix that too. He took out the owl-eyed Emperor in ESB and replaced him with new scenes of McDiarmid's version. Dropping Hayden's face into the unmasking scene wouldn't have been all that much harder.


So it's a hard rule that your force ghost looks EXACTLY like you did when you died. Unless you die ugly, in which case the force gives you a makeover and a new haircut in the contemporary style before you go out in public.

But the residual self-image theory is ridiculous.
 
2022-03-30 8:47:32 PM  

Chemlight Battery: So it's a hard rule that your force ghost looks EXACTLY like you did when you died. Unless you die ugly, in which case the force gives you a makeover and a new haircut in the contemporary style before you go out in public.

But the residual self-image theory is ridiculous.


Your residual self-image theory doesn't cover the problem of Sebastian Shaw being under the mask. I think you're determined not to accept what the real disconnect is. You don't introduce Shaw as Vader at all if he isn't the face you're closing the film with. If the ghost is Hayden, the one under the mask must also be Hayden. I don't know how much more simply I can try to explain this to you.
 
2022-03-30 8:51:45 PM  
Someone with actual skill needs to knock together a ceiling force ghost is watching you masturbate
 
2022-03-30 8:59:24 PM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: Someone with actual skill needs to knock together a ceiling force ghost is watching you masturbate


That's pretty much all we're doing in this thread, and I'd bet any Force ghost would have gotten bored hours ago and found something better to do.

/dammit, why didn't I do that?
 
2022-03-30 8:59:52 PM  

Chemlight Battery: It always made sense to have Hayden Christiansen. It was awkward if you were expecting Sebastian Shaw, but it still made more sense.


no, it didn't. Stop trolling
 
2022-03-30 9:05:08 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Retcons are how a third of Star Wars lore exists.  See: anything involving the Kessel Run


When I meet your father he was already a great pilot.

No one knows the Jedi

Luke, I am your father.

Your sister remains anonymous. Leia!

Tantonie is not the center of the universe.

/ the Kessler Run stuff is just stuff. Han was bragging about BS, trying to trick the farmers
 
2022-03-30 9:12:02 PM  
 
2022-03-30 9:46:02 PM  

EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: So it's a hard rule that your force ghost looks EXACTLY like you did when you died. Unless you die ugly, in which case the force gives you a makeover and a new haircut in the contemporary style before you go out in public.

But the residual self-image theory is ridiculous.

Your residual self-image theory doesn't cover the problem of Sebastian Shaw being under the mask. I think you're determined not to accept what the real disconnect is. You don't introduce Shaw as Vader at all if he isn't the face you're closing the film with. If the ghost is Hayden, the one under the mask must also be Hayden. I don't know how much more simply I can try to explain this to you.


The self image explanation explains it perfectly. In fact, that's literally the whole point. This is where the disconnect in our conversation keeps coming back to, so I'll try to explain one more time.

If Vader/Anakin were to close his eyes and try to picture "Anakin," it makes sense that Hayden Christiansen is what he sees. It's what Anakin looked like before his fall. At the last moment he existed. Before Vader killed him. Before his body got farked up, his limbs discarded and replaced with robot parts, and he was placed permanently in a life support system. Before he was more machine than man. Before he became Vader. That's what "Anakin" still looks like to him in his mind's eye. So when Anakin dies, if you believe that the force ghost gets its form from how the dead Jedi sees himself (which is the theory I'm making a case for), it makes sense that HC is what Anakin's ghost would look like. It doesn't need to look like Shaw. It wouldn't look like Shaw. Shaw, or more accurately the face under the mask, is what Vader looks like. Anakin doesn't look like that. Never has. Not in his mind. That's Vader's body.

It has nothing to do with the actors. It has to do with what the character looked like at the time. There'd be no value added in digitally putting HC under the mask, because what he looks like at that time is irrelevant to what his ghost will look like.

And Obi Wan and Yoda don't need to have a younger self as a FG, because their older selves is how they would see themselves.

I find this theory far more believable and internally consistent than the theory that the ghost would look like some version of Anakin that Anakin knows--and the audience knows--never existed. That requires far more handwaving. Shaw's ghost was fine before the prequels existed because it literally could have been anything. We had no baseline other than Shaw and no reason to question it or additional context to fit in. And if they'd left Shaw in, I wouldn't complain. But in my humble opinion, HC makes more sense. It's awkward, yes--I said this in my Boobies upthread. But it still makes more sense.

It also doesn't break your "redemption" visual either. It accomplishes the same thing. In fact, having the Anakin we know and love(?) reborn again as a ghost accomplishes it better, in my opinion, than just giving Sebastian Shaw a new hairpiece.

FWIW, I've watched Star Wars 1 - 6 at least twice with first time viewers, and both of them found HC in ROTJ to be a nice touch that closed an emotional loop. I don't think Shaw's force ghost would connect with them in the same way.

/though I will admit that anyone who has to be shown Star Wars for the first time after the age of 30 probably doesn't have an expert opinion
 
2022-03-30 10:26:37 PM  

Chemlight Battery: EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: So it's a hard rule that your force ghost looks EXACTLY like you did when you died. Unless you die ugly, in which case the force gives you a makeover and a new haircut in the contemporary style before you go out in public.

But the residual self-image theory is ridiculous.

Your residual self-image theory doesn't cover the problem of Sebastian Shaw being under the mask. I think you're determined not to accept what the real disconnect is. You don't introduce Shaw as Vader at all if he isn't the face you're closing the film with. If the ghost is Hayden, the one under the mask must also be Hayden. I don't know how much more simply I can try to explain this to you.

The self image explanation explains it perfectly. In fact, that's literally the whole point. This is where the disconnect in our conversation keeps coming back to, so I'll try to explain one more time.

If Vader/Anakin were to close his eyes and try to picture "Anakin," it makes sense that Hayden Christiansen is what he sees. It's what Anakin looked like before his fall. At the last moment he existed. Before Vader killed him. Before his body got farked up, his limbs discarded and replaced with robot parts, and he was placed permanently in a life support system. Before he was more machine than man. Before he became Vader. That's what "Anakin" still looks like to him in his mind's eye. So when Anakin dies, if you believe that the force ghost gets its form from how the dead Jedi sees himself (which is the theory I'm making a case for), it makes sense that HC is what Anakin's ghost would look like. It doesn't need to look like Shaw. It wouldn't look like Shaw. Shaw, or more accurately the face under the mask, is what Vader looks like. Anakin doesn't look like that. Never has. Not in his mind. That's Vader's body.

It has nothing to do with the actors. It has to do with what the character looked like at the time. There'd be no value added in digitally putting HC under the mask, because what he looks like at that time is irrelevant to what his ghost will look like.

And Obi Wan and Yoda don't need to have a younger self as a FG, because their older selves is how they would see themselves.

I find this theory far more believable and internally consistent than the theory that the ghost would look like some version of Anakin that Anakin knows--and the audience knows--never existed. That requires far more handwaving. Shaw's ghost was fine before the prequels existed because it literally could have been anything. We had no baseline other than Shaw and no reason to question it or additional context to fit in. And if they'd left Shaw in, I wouldn't complain. But in my humble opinion, HC makes more sense. It's awkward, yes--I said this in my Boobies upthread. But it still makes more sense.

It also doesn't break your "redemption" visual either. It accomplishes the same thing. In fact, having the Anakin we know and love(?) reborn again as a ghost accomplishes it better, in my opinion, than just giving Sebastian Shaw a new hairpiece.

FWIW, I've watched Star Wars 1 - 6 at least twice with first time viewers, and both of them found HC in ROTJ to be a nice touch that closed an emotional loop. I don't think Shaw's force ghost would connect with them in the same way.

/though I will admit that anyone who has to be shown Star Wars for the first time after the age of 30 probably doesn't have an expert opinion


When you saw Star Wars for the first time has nothing to do with the internal consistency of a single movie. There are two scenes in ROTJ of Vader unmasked, and the most important one is the first, in which Luke truly sees and bonds with his father for the very first time. The second is just a confirmation of Anakin's redemption in that scene. For the second to effectively pay off the first, they have to match, so if you're changing out Shaw, it's an all or nothing deal.

Again, that's a requirement based on the language of film, not Star Wars.
 
2022-03-31 11:11:00 AM  

EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: EdgeRunner: Chemlight Battery: So it's a hard rule that your force ghost looks EXACTLY like you did when you died. Unless you die ugly, in which case the force gives you a makeover and a new haircut in the contemporary style before you go out in public.

But the residual self-image theory is ridiculous.

Your residual self-image theory doesn't cover the problem of Sebastian Shaw being under the mask. I think you're determined not to accept what the real disconnect is. You don't introduce Shaw as Vader at all if he isn't the face you're closing the film with. If the ghost is Hayden, the one under the mask must also be Hayden. I don't know how much more simply I can try to explain this to you.

The self image explanation explains it perfectly. In fact, that's literally the whole point. This is where the disconnect in our conversation keeps coming back to, so I'll try to explain one more time.

If Vader/Anakin were to close his eyes and try to picture "Anakin," it makes sense that Hayden Christiansen is what he sees. It's what Anakin looked like before his fall. At the last moment he existed. Before Vader killed him. Before his body got farked up, his limbs discarded and replaced with robot parts, and he was placed permanently in a life support system. Before he was more machine than man. Before he became Vader. That's what "Anakin" still looks like to him in his mind's eye. So when Anakin dies, if you believe that the force ghost gets its form from how the dead Jedi sees himself (which is the theory I'm making a case for), it makes sense that HC is what Anakin's ghost would look like. It doesn't need to look like Shaw. It wouldn't look like Shaw. Shaw, or more accurately the face under the mask, is what Vader looks like. Anakin doesn't look like that. Never has. Not in his mind. That's Vader's body.

It has nothing to do with the actors. It has to do with what the character looked like at the time. There'd be no value added in digitally putting HC under the mask, because what he looks like at that time is irrelevant to what his ghost will look like.

And Obi Wan and Yoda don't need to have a younger self as a FG, because their older selves is how they would see themselves.

I find this theory far more believable and internally consistent than the theory that the ghost would look like some version of Anakin that Anakin knows--and the audience knows--never existed. That requires far more handwaving. Shaw's ghost was fine before the prequels existed because it literally could have been anything. We had no baseline other than Shaw and no reason to question it or additional context to fit in. And if they'd left Shaw in, I wouldn't complain. But in my humble opinion, HC makes more sense. It's awkward, yes--I said this in my Boobies upthread. But it still makes more sense.

It also doesn't break your "redemption" visual either. It accomplishes the same thing. In fact, having the Anakin we know and love(?) reborn again as a ghost accomplishes it better, in my opinion, than just giving Sebastian Shaw a new hairpiece.

FWIW, I've watched Star Wars 1 - 6 at least twice with first time viewers, and both of them found HC in ROTJ to be a nice touch that closed an emotional loop. I don't think Shaw's force ghost would connect with them in the same way.

/though I will admit that anyone who has to be shown Star Wars for the first time after the age of 30 probably doesn't have an expert opinion

When you saw Star Wars for the first time has nothing to do with the internal consistency of a single movie. There are two scenes in ROTJ of Vader unmasked, and the most important one is the first, in which Luke truly sees and bonds with his father for the very first time. The second is just a confirmation of Anakin's redemption in that scene. For the second to effectively pay off the first, they have to match, so if you're changing out Shaw, it's an all or nothing deal.

Again, that's a requirement based on the language of film, not Star Wars.


So you're arguing that it's better according to the "language of film." Which is a load of cockamamie BS, but I'm not going to argue with you about that. My argument is that the change, awkward as it is, results in fewer problems in the fiction. We're arguing two totally different things now.
 
2022-03-31 1:46:51 PM  

Chemlight Battery: So you're arguing that it's better according to the "language of film." Which is a load of cockamamie BS, but I'm not going to argue with you about that. My argument is that the change, awkward as it is, results in fewer problems in the fiction. We're arguing two totally different things now.


We've been arguing two different things the entire time. My objection is based on correct filmmaking technique, and yours is based on personal opinion of what you prefer. Rules versus feels. And we're never going to see eye-to-eye on this, because no matter how I restate the rules, you're never going to feel that they're right.

Let's just agree to disagree, because this is never going to get us anywhere.
 
2022-03-31 7:20:54 PM  
It's a Disney product, it's literally just fanfiction.  So, like... who cares?

The films did an... okay job of skirting the line of force ghosts still being summoned entities there to answer questions rather than actual full beings in their own right (y'know, ghosts) up through VIII, but since IX they've cared as much about whether there's any internal consistency as the average WattPad fanfic about Kylo having a torrid BDSM-filled affair with Justin Beiber and Animal from The Muppets, so there's no reason to treat them as any more authoritative on the matter, y'know?

That Disney is hiring people who thing that a "ghost" is the complete, still-fully-realized soul of the person who can still do all the shiat they did while alive and are functionally the same entity in every way plus some free power-ups is... pretty fitting, since that's exactly the kind of bullshiat you get from the fourteen-year-olds writing slash fic because they haven't had the time to read any literature or mythology yet to even know what ghosts traditionally are in "normal" literature, or why it's important that they're presented the way they are and what it represents.  Since any normal person of average intelligence inevitably reads enough and grows up enough to understand how dumb the first thing is even if they don't before they reach the age of 18 and can be legally employed, I can only conclude that Disney's writing staff consists of child slaves in an overseas sweatshop somewhere.  Which would also fit pretty well with how Disney typically operates.
 
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