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(The Register)   Google researchers determine that Linux developers fix bugs in less than 1/3rd the time of Microsoft, Apple or Oracle   (theregister.com) divider line
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445 clicks; posted to STEM » on 14 Feb 2022 at 2:20 PM (26 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



19 Comments     (+0 »)
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2022-02-14 1:24:56 PM  
I mean yeah but they also don't create the bugs, closed source, and force them down your farking throat on a recurring cycle, so there's that.
 
2022-02-14 2:24:46 PM  
When did Oracle start fixing bugs?
 
2022-02-14 2:32:58 PM  
Well good for them. Any day now it'll be the year of the Linux desktop.
 
2022-02-14 2:33:04 PM  

chitownmike: When did Oracle start fixing bugs?

Oracle pulling last place at 109 days, albeit from a very low number of cases.


One could read this to mean they only fixed a few, and they are only counting fixed bugs to the average. The unfixed bugs and lack of features don't count.

Oracle's lack of technological progress probably does help in reducing new bugs found. Not installing Java is still one of the best things you can do for security on your system. Flash was another. Adobe and Oracle suck.
 
2022-02-14 3:02:19 PM  
Microsoft has been reallying focusing on improving their quality. I've been impressed.
 
2022-02-14 3:08:25 PM  
Although it doesn't always hold true, the time spent to fix a bug is inversely proportional to the chance that the fix will fark up things worse than the bug...

The absolute worst ones are:
hmmm, ah crap
type type type <save> <commit>
<take off for a long weekend>
 
2022-02-14 3:29:58 PM  
Quantumbunny:

Oracle's lack of technological progress probably does help in reducing new bugs found. Not installing Java is still one of the best things you can do for security on your system. Flash was another. Adobe and Oracle suck.

Not installing anything from Oracle would help. From what I have read, working on Oracle Database is hell. This note is from 3.5 years ago. I doubt anything has changed since then.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442941
"Oracle Database 12.2.
It is close to 25 million lines of C code.
What an unimaginable horror! You can't change a single line of code in the product without breaking 1000s of existing tests. Generations of programmers have worked on that code under difficult deadlines and filled the code with all kinds of crap.
Very complex pieces of logic, memory management, context switching, etc. are all held together with thousands of flags. The whole code is ridden with mysterious macros that one cannot decipher without picking a notebook and expanding relevant pats of the macros by hand. It can take a day to two days to really understand what a macro does.
Sometimes one needs to understand the values and the effects of 20 different flag to predict how the code would behave in different situations. Sometimes 100s too! I am not exaggerating.
The only reason why this product is still surviving and still works is due to literally millions of tests!
Here is how the life of an Oracle Database developer is:
- Start working on a new bug.
- Spend two weeks trying to understand the 20 different flags that interact in mysterious ways to cause this bag.
- Add one more flag to handle the new special scenario. Add a few more lines of code that checks this flag and works around the problematic situation and avoids the bug.
- Submit the changes to a test farm consisting of about 100 to 200 servers that would compile the code, build a new Oracle DB, and run the millions of tests in a distributed fashion.
- Go home. Come the next day and work on something else. The tests can take 20 hours to 30 hours to complete.
- Go home. Come the next day and check your farm test results. On a good day, there would be about 100 failing tests. On a bad day, there would be about 1000 failing tests. Pick some of these tests randomly and try to understand what went wrong with your assumptions. Maybe there are some 10 more flags to consider to truly understand the nature of the bug.
- Add a few more flags in an attempt to fix the issue. Submit the changes again for testing. Wait another 20 to 30 hours.
- Rinse and repeat for another two weeks until you get the mysterious incantation of the combination of flags right.
- Finally one fine day you would succeed with 0 tests failing.
- Add a hundred more tests for your new change to ensure that the next developer who has the misfortune of touching this new piece of code never ends up breaking your fix.
- Submit the work for one final round of testing. Then submit it for review. The review itself may take another 2 weeks to 2 months. So now move on to the next bug to work on.
- After 2 weeks to 2 months, when everything is complete, the code would be finally merged into the main branch.
The above is a non-exaggerated description of the life of a programmer in Oracle fixing a bug. Now imagine what horror it is going to be to develop a new feature. It takes 6 months to a year (sometimes two years!) to develop a single small feature (say something like adding a new mode of authentication like support for AD authentication).
The fact that this product even works is nothing short of a miracle!
I don't work for Oracle anymore. Will never work for Oracle again! "
 
2022-02-14 3:50:40 PM  
This thread lacks some junior edgelords to make fun of Linux.

Where are you, Sir Smugalot?
 
2022-02-14 4:10:19 PM  
It always takes less time when you skip testing.  Duh.
 
2022-02-14 4:17:34 PM  

knobmaker: This thread lacks some junior edgelords to make fun of Linux.

Where are you, Sir Smugalot?


It also lacks a certain Farker who's probably too busy in the cryptocurrency threads.
 
2022-02-14 4:23:50 PM  
Well, if you're not worrying about advertising it, packaging it, or trying to make money off it, you can cut out a lot of dead weight.
 
2022-02-14 5:27:07 PM  

OrionXVI: Well, if you're not worrying about advertising it, packaging it, or trying to make money off it, you can cut out a lot of dead weight.


Having a testing team who puts it through actual regression testing saves a lot as well.

"Well, it works on MY machine! Put it in the GIT and push it out the next time someone does an apt-get, we'll fix it later."

As a counterpoint to what you're saying, if you're putting out a crapton of code to 20,000 machines that your business depends on, sometimes it DOES take a lot of testing.

When Windows XP SP2 came out, I was hired to evaluate as to how that could screw up, and what were the implications. Not for somebodies' home network, but for a larger corporation that rhymes with "Forizion." It was actually a pretty big task.

I've noticed that Linux updates on a more or less hourly basis. That's not something one can do in a larger environment. What works on a home network doesn't always work on very large scales, so... Big corporate development. And that's why they went with a corporation as big as Microsoft instead of you.
 
2022-02-14 6:21:50 PM  
Oh no you've summoned him.
 
2022-02-14 7:16:07 PM  

maxheck: OrionXVI: Well, if you're not worrying about advertising it, packaging it, or trying to make money off it, you can cut out a lot of dead weight.

Having a testing team who puts it through actual regression testing saves a lot as well.

"Well, it works on MY machine! Put it in the GIT and push it out the next time someone does an apt-get, we'll fix it later."

As a counterpoint to what you're saying, if you're putting out a crapton of code to 20,000 machines that your business depends on, sometimes it DOES take a lot of testing.

When Windows XP SP2 came out, I was hired to evaluate as to how that could screw up, and what were the implications. Not for somebodies' home network, but for a larger corporation that rhymes with "Forizion." It was actually a pretty big task.

I've noticed that Linux updates on a more or less hourly basis. That's not something one can do in a larger environment. What works on a home network doesn't always work on very large scales, so... Big corporate development. And that's why they went with a corporation as big as Microsoft instead of you.


I'd image that releasing patches whenever vs the second Tuesday of the month makes a difference as well.
 
2022-02-14 9:20:41 PM  

SPARC Pile: Quantumbunny:

Oracle's lack of technological progress probably does help in reducing new bugs found. Not installing Java is still one of the best things you can do for security on your system. Flash was another. Adobe and Oracle suck.

Not installing anything from Oracle would help. From what I have read, working on Oracle Database is hell. This note is from 3.5 years ago. I doubt anything has changed since then.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442941
"Oracle Database 12.2.
It is close to 25 million lines of C code.
What an unimaginable horror! You can't change a single line of code in the product without breaking 1000s of existing tests. Generations of programmers have worked on that code under difficult deadlines and filled the code with all kinds of crap.
Very complex pieces of logic, memory management, context switching, etc. are all held together with thousands of flags. The whole code is ridden with mysterious macros that one cannot decipher without picking a notebook and expanding relevant pats of the macros by hand. It can take a day to two days to really understand what a macro does.
Sometimes one needs to understand the values and the effects of 20 different flag to predict how the code would behave in different situations. Sometimes 100s too! I am not exaggerating.
The only reason why this product is still surviving and still works is due to literally millions of tests!
Here is how the life of an Oracle Database developer is:
- Start working on a new bug.
- Spend two weeks trying to understand the 20 different flags that interact in mysterious ways to cause this bag.
- Add one more flag to handle the new special scenario. Add a few more lines of code that checks this flag and works around the problematic situation and avoids the bug.
- Submit the changes to a test farm consisting of about 100 to 200 servers that would compile the code, build a new Oracle DB, and run the millions of tests in a distributed fashion.
- Go home. Come the next day and work on something else. The tests can take 20 hours to 30 hours to complete.
- Go home. Come the next day and check your farm test results. On a good day, there would be about 100 failing tests. On a bad day, there would be about 1000 failing tests. Pick some of these tests randomly and try to understand what went wrong with your assumptions. Maybe there are some 10 more flags to consider to truly understand the nature of the bug.
- Add a few more flags in an attempt to fix the issue. Submit the changes again for testing. Wait another 20 to 30 hours.
- Rinse and repeat for another two weeks until you get the mysterious incantation of the combination of flags right.
- Finally one fine day you would succeed with 0 tests failing.
- Add a hundred more tests for your new change to ensure that the next developer who has the misfortune of touching this new piece of code never ends up breaking your fix.
- Submit the work for one final round of testing. Then submit it for review. The review itself may take another 2 weeks to 2 months. So now move on to the next bug to work on.
- After 2 weeks to 2 months, when everything is complete, the code would be finally merged into the main branch.
The above is a non-exaggerated description of the life of a programmer in Oracle fixing a bug. Now imagine what horror it is going to be to develop a new feature. It takes 6 months to a year (sometimes two years!) to develop a single small feature (say something like adding a new mode of authentication like support for AD authentication).
The fact that this product even works is nothing short of a miracle!
I don't work for Oracle anymore. Will never work for Oracle again! "


Having worked with a few, Sql Server is pretty pleasant to use. Oracle is a nightmare. When Oracle bought MySql it was too kill it. Postgre is next.

For our software, one DBA can manage multiple instances of all our DBs. The clients that run Oracle need multiple DBAs per instance, which tells me a lot.

So if it sucks as a developer, and for management, and for cost... That does leave me wondering why anyone uses it.
 
2022-02-14 9:35:30 PM  

Quantumbunny: SPARC Pile: Quantumbunny:

Oracle's lack of technological progress probably does help in reducing new bugs found. Not installing Java is still one of the best things you can do for security on your system. Flash was another. Adobe and Oracle suck.

Not installing anything from Oracle would help. From what I have read, working on Oracle Database is hell. This note is from 3.5 years ago. I doubt anything has changed since then.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442941
"Oracle Database 12.2.
It is close to 25 million lines of C code.
What an unimaginable horror! You can't change a single line of code in the product without breaking 1000s of existing tests. Generations of programmers have worked on that code under difficult deadlines and filled the code with all kinds of crap.
Very complex pieces of logic, memory management, context switching, etc. are all held together with thousands of flags. The whole code is ridden with mysterious macros that one cannot decipher without picking a notebook and expanding relevant pats of the macros by hand. It can take a day to two days to really understand what a macro does.
Sometimes one needs to understand the values and the effects of 20 different flag to predict how the code would behave in different situations. Sometimes 100s too! I am not exaggerating.
The only reason why this product is still surviving and still works is due to literally millions of tests!
Here is how the life of an Oracle Database developer is:
- Start working on a new bug.
- Spend two weeks trying to understand the 20 different flags that interact in mysterious ways to cause this bag.
- Add one more flag to handle the new special scenario. Add a few more lines of code that checks this flag and works around the problematic situation and avoids the bug.
- Submit the changes to a test farm consisting of about 100 to 200 servers that would compile the code, build a new Oracle DB, and run the millions of tests in a distributed fashion.
- Go home. Come the next day and work on something else. The tests can take 20 hours to 30 hours to complete.
- Go home. Come the next day and check your farm test results. On a good day, there would be about 100 failing tests. On a bad day, there would be about 1000 failing tests. Pick some of these tests randomly and try to understand what went wrong with your assumptions. Maybe there are some 10 more flags to consider to truly understand the nature of the bug.
- Add a few more flags in an attempt to fix the issue. Submit the changes again for testing. Wait another 20 to 30 hours.
- Rinse and repeat for another two weeks until you get the mysterious incantation of the combination of flags right.
- Finally one fine day you would succeed with 0 tests failing.
- Add a hundred more tests for your new change to ensure that the next developer who has the misfortune of touching this new piece of code never ends up breaking your fix.
- Submit the work for one final round of testing. Then submit it for review. The review itself may take another 2 weeks to 2 months. So now move on to the next bug to work on.
- After 2 weeks to 2 months, when everything is complete, the code would be finally merged into the main branch.
The above is a non-exaggerated description of the life of a programmer in Oracle fixing a bug. Now imagine what horror it is going to be to develop a new feature. It takes 6 months to a year (sometimes two years!) to develop a single small feature (say something like adding a new mode of authentication like support for AD authentication).
The fact that this product even works is nothing short of a miracle!
I don't work for Oracle anymore. Will never work for Oracle again! "

Having worked with a few, Sql Server is pretty pleasant to use. Oracle is a nightmare. When Oracle bought MySql it was too kill it. Postgre is next.

For our software, one DBA can manage multiple instances of all our DBs. The clients that run Oracle need multiple DBAs per instance, which tells me a lot.

So if it sucks as a developer, and for management, and for cost... That does leave me wondering why anyone uses it.


From my decade or two (damn I'm old) of DB development and DBA experience, there used to be a valid reason to use Oracle over SQL Server because certain configurations of Oracle performed better than SQL Server and Oracle had a wider range of functionality in certain areas (I'm looking at you, Oracle Spatial).  That began to change around the release of SQL Server 2012 with the inclusion of geometry and geography data types and later on with columnstore indexes for performance improvements for read-heavy operations.  I don't see a substantial difference nowadays in terms of performance or functionality, even with the Exadata appliances.  I'm sure there's a white paper out there somewhere that shows Oracle is still faster but I would not be surprised if the gap between RDBMSs is a lot smaller and probably would not justify the significant price difference.
 
2022-02-14 10:20:10 PM  

VisualiseThis: I'm sure there's a white paper out there somewhere that shows Oracle is still faster


According to the Oracle white papers, but only If you use their top of the line servers like the m8-8. It is faster just because of the sheer amount of fast memory the thing can use as a single image combined with special instructions to do faster sql.  If you have a problem where you need 8 tb of ram and special hardware in the CPU to make it go fast, you have much bigger problems.  Super micro is now selling much cheaper machines with 24 tb of ram and a bunch of ex-Sun designers ended up doing cool things on the Ryzen processors. I see a clear road for Oracle and it involves making use of its only remaining strength which is fleecing governments and fortune 500 companies. Sometimes you just have to stick with what you know.
 
2022-02-15 1:46:59 AM  

Russ1642: Well good for them. Any day now it'll be the year of the Linux desktop.


This is relevant to other use cases, like nearly every other device you have.
 
2022-02-15 6:33:02 AM  
When I read about the recent polkit vulnerability here on Fark, I checked my update logs and saw the fix had already been applied.  Unlikely that would have happened with any current or previous version of Windows.
 
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