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(CNN)   Another corporate practice that may go extinct because of the pandemic-related "Great Resignation?" The practice of not including the position's salary in its job listing. Which only ever existed to screw over employees in the first place   (cnn.com) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Employment, Wage, salary ranges, job postings, Salary, pay inequity, Labor costs, current employees  
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678 clicks; posted to Business » and Main » on 09 Feb 2022 at 1:05 PM (19 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-02-09 12:37:49 PM  
Good
 
2022-02-09 12:59:34 PM  
I had some recruiter from back home emailing me about jobs. And refused to give even a range.

I wasn't interested in moving home, but I let them know I certainly wasn't interested in anyone practicing that kind of behavior
 
2022-02-09 1:17:06 PM  
No salary listed means they're too embarrassed to say how pathetic it is.
 
2022-02-09 1:17:43 PM  
Putting the pay scale in the job posting would save a company so much work:

Putting the pay range in the job description: ~one minute

Not needing to interview people who would have rejected the job due to the low pay only being disclosed after the interview:
~5 minutes for the HR person to set up the interview
~half hour per person in the interview
time needed for after-interview comparisons of the applicants who will wind up declining the job due to low pay
 
2022-02-09 1:17:46 PM  
Employer: "So, we've received your application but it appears you forgot to attach your resume."

Job seeker: "No, I didn't forget, I feel we should go through several rounds of interviews first, then when I receive an offer, I'll send you my resume and we can negotiate from there."

If it doesn't make sense from that end, it shouldn't make sense from the other end either.
 
2022-02-09 1:19:06 PM  
Aw.

I've had some fun with the "Well why the f*ck are you wasting my time" dust-kicking portion of a failed interview when it became clear my demands exceeded their expectations, but I realize that not everyone has my level of patience/masochism.
 
2022-02-09 1:24:31 PM  
It's actually a tricky situation for some jobs. For example, in my field, the range for senior level people depends not only on seniority but their skill-set. So a posted range would literally be 90k - 165k. I don't see how that will be remotely useful to job seekers, but ok.
 
2022-02-09 1:26:45 PM  
In fairness it can get tricky when you have a wide range.  One of the jobs I advertised recently could have gone to anyone from a recent Masters to an experienced Ph.D with something like a factor of 2 difference in salary.  Posting the range can be an issue since you'll get the newbie assuming they can ask for the top end and the Ph.D. assuming we're going to lowball them.  (Ended up offering the Ph.D. almost the max; she negotiated for the rest of it)

/Will admit it's nice to save time when I see an interesting job and note that it's $10k less than I'm already making.
 
2022-02-09 1:27:28 PM  
Banks are really good about hiding salary information. One job the senior (time with the company) was getting less than half of what I was (recent hire).  I just happened to see one of her pay stubs.  She had on several occasions talked about money problems, but she had only worked for one company and was afraid to look for another job.  About then we got a new manager. In my interview with him, I mentioned the salary discrepancy and pointed out she was the only one who understood some of the legacy equipment.  He expressed doubts about being able to change her pay much.  I also pointed out that she was three levels below the requirement for her position.

He must have looked into it and HR must have agreed it looked bad from a legal standpoint, because two months later she got "promoted" to the proper level.
 
2022-02-09 1:32:09 PM  

aneki: It's actually a tricky situation for some jobs. For example, in my field, the range for senior level people depends not only on seniority but their skill-set. So a posted range would literally be 90k - 165k. I don't see how that will be remotely useful to job seekers, but ok.


It's like that in my field too. No two jobs within the same skillset are exactly the same and the expectations vary widely.

Like: "We really want a magnificent purple unicorn but we'll happily settle for a sturdy roan pony as long as they have good teeth".
 
2022-02-09 1:33:55 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: In fairness it can get tricky when you have a wide range.  One of the jobs I advertised recently could have gone to anyone from a recent Masters to an experienced Ph.D with something like a factor of 2 difference in salary.  Posting the range can be an issue since you'll get the newbie assuming they can ask for the top end and the Ph.D. assuming we're going to lowball them.  (Ended up offering the Ph.D. almost the max; she negotiated for the rest of it)

/Will admit it's nice to save time when I see an interesting job and note that it's $10k less than I'm already making.


Sure sounds like something that could be handled by having tiered positions. Analyst level 1/2/3 depending on experience. It sure sucks that there is a limited amount of webpage paper so job postings have to be under a certain length. We would never be able to fit a few lines in about how persons with 0-3 years of experience would be hired as an Analyst 1 for a certain range, and higher amounts based on more experience.

Damn you internet and your e-paper shortage!
 
2022-02-09 1:35:36 PM  
Not always about the money either.

My last interview, I told the manager that for the modest price he was offering he had the option of either me coming and going as I please as long as deliverables were met or my ass would be in my chair for no more than 40.0 hours per week. 

He surprised me by saying that was perfectly reasonable. I've been here almost five years now.
 
2022-02-09 1:36:48 PM  
"Commensurate" is from the Latin for "None of your damn business, peon"
 
2022-02-09 1:51:33 PM  
When I was looking in 2019 through 2021, I would just ask. There was some pushback. Pushback meant I didn't want to work there anyways. My current job? Offer came in higher than expected for once. I took it. Still might have been their mistake. Tough tit-tays, HR!
 
2022-02-09 1:53:44 PM  
About time.
 
2022-02-09 2:00:19 PM  

aneki: It's actually a tricky situation for some jobs. For example, in my field, the range for senior level people depends not only on seniority but their skill-set. So a posted range would literally be 90k - 165k. I don't see how that will be remotely useful to job seekers, but ok.


If you know the skill set you are hiring for, then it shouldn't be a problem. It sounds like hinky hiring practices to me. I mean, do you not know what skills you are looking for when you hire?
 
2022-02-09 2:00:28 PM  
The 'no response / no further contact' rate when I ask a recruiter what a position pays continues to hover somewhere around 80%.

And this morning I got an email about a tech support position that, from the requirements, should pay at least $25 an hour, and they're only offering $18.  Good Luck With That! Some companies don't seem to be learning any lessons from all of this.
 
2022-02-09 2:05:59 PM  
As a consultant, I respond to all emails (don't answer the phone anymore) with the second paragraph explaining my expectations for the pay rate (it's not uncommon for me to add a little more than previous engagements).

You'd be surprised how many idiots respond with much lower offers thinking that is acceptable to which I either torch them or block them depending on my mood.

It's an employee market, not an employer market. You pay for what you want. I've seen companies who underpay that list the same positions routinely every couple of months and I find it hilarious that they think that's a good business model, but since they are large employers they refuse to change/adapt/adjust.

Farking pay people what they are worth in any industry and that includes entry-level positions and a living wage for every working individual in this country.

/end rant
 
2022-02-09 2:06:04 PM  
All jobs should pay the same.

Problem solved.

The amount paid should be zero.  We should all be working towards the continuation and expansion of the collective.  Getting more resources and bio matter into the sphere of influence for the collective.
 
2022-02-09 2:08:17 PM  
The place I'm working now did not hesitate putting their salary right out there when they recruited me. Found out later that they had three other people ghost them when they didn't. That number was almost 20K more than I was getting paid before, plus moving expenses and other goodies. They still don't know that.

If they had done that from the start they might have found someone sooner. Good for me they didn't.
 
2022-02-09 2:17:46 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: All jobs should pay the same.

Problem solved.

The amount paid should be zero.  We should all be working towards the continuation and expansion of the collective.  Getting more resources and bio matter into the sphere of influence for the collective.


Gene Rodenberry's estate called and claimed copywrite infringement.
 
2022-02-09 2:18:03 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: No salary listed means they're too embarrassed to say how pathetic it is.


No, it could mean they want to see if they can underpay you for your skills.
 
2022-02-09 2:22:14 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: All jobs should pay the same.

Problem solved.

The amount paid should be zero.  We should all be working towards the continuation and expansion of the collective.  Getting more resources and bio matter into the sphere of influence for the collective.


Ok comrade
 
2022-02-09 2:27:08 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: All jobs should pay the same.

Problem solved.

The amount paid should be zero.  We should all be working towards the continuation and expansion of the collective.  Getting more resources and bio matter into the sphere of influence for the collective.


Maybe you should try leading by example.
 
2022-02-09 2:30:05 PM  

common sense is an oxymoron: AmbassadorBooze: All jobs should pay the same.

Problem solved.

The amount paid should be zero.  We should all be working towards the continuation and expansion of the collective.  Getting more resources and bio matter into the sphere of influence for the collective.

Maybe you should try leading by example.


I do.  As a collective of one, all my resources go towards the support of the collective and expanding the collective.

Resistance has not been futile, but I think once the collective gets critical mass it will really take off.
 
2022-02-09 2:36:51 PM  

iaazathot: aneki: It's actually a tricky situation for some jobs. For example, in my field, the range for senior level people depends not only on seniority but their skill-set. So a posted range would literally be 90k - 165k. I don't see how that will be remotely useful to job seekers, but ok.

If you know the skill set you are hiring for, then it shouldn't be a problem. It sounds like hinky hiring practices to me. I mean, do you not know what skills you are looking for when you hire?


I think it's a reasonable situation - employer can hire a limited number of people, but they're flexible and willing to take on someone highly experienced or someone just starting as long it's the right fit otherwise. Nothing wrong with that and expecting to pay accordingly.

So list 3, 4, 5, whatever positions you're willing to fill and set expected skills, experience, and pay range for each. No big deal if you know you will only fill the first 2 that get a great applicant. They each saw the range of positions you're looking for and how well your pay range matches the market for the ones that suit them.

Professing that it's impractical to put a defensible compensation range along with the range of skills & requirements is either lazy or disingenuous.
 
2022-02-09 2:37:43 PM  

natazha: Banks are really good about hiding salary information. One job the senior (time with the company) was getting less than half of what I was (recent hire).  I just happened to see one of her pay stubs.  She had on several occasions talked about money problems, but she had only worked for one company and was afraid to look for another job.  About then we got a new manager. In my interview with him, I mentioned the salary discrepancy and pointed out she was the only one who understood some of the legacy equipment.  He expressed doubts about being able to change her pay much.  I also pointed out that she was three levels below the requirement for her position.

He must have looked into it and HR must have agreed it looked bad from a legal standpoint, because two months later she got "promoted" to the proper level.


You rock.
 
2022-02-09 2:55:05 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: common sense is an oxymoron: AmbassadorBooze: All jobs should pay the same.

Problem solved.

The amount paid should be zero.  We should all be working towards the continuation and expansion of the collective.  Getting more resources and bio matter into the sphere of influence for the collective.

Maybe you should try leading by example.

I do.  As a collective of one, all my resources go towards the support of the collective and expanding the collective.

Resistance has not been futile, but I think once the collective gets critical mass it will really take off.


With zero income, where did those resources come from? Or did you build them yourself?
 
2022-02-09 3:01:05 PM  
It could have saved a lot of time if they did do that, can't remember how many interviews I have done and when I finally get told the pay it was laughable. The most insulting one was from a company that wanted to pay me half of what I was making now but they said that was ok because I would be working so much overtime and probably make more. I don't think they got the reason why people had to work overtime for them was because nobody wanted to work for $9 hr.

The thing that pisses me off now is how they will list jobs with high pay and then try to pay less because of some stupid reason or another.
 
2022-02-09 3:05:22 PM  

natazha: Banks are really good about hiding salary information. One job the senior (time with the company) was getting less than half of what I was (recent hire).  I just happened to see one of her pay stubs.  She had on several occasions talked about money problems, but she had only worked for one company and was afraid to look for another job.  About then we got a new manager. In my interview with him, I mentioned the salary discrepancy and pointed out she was the only one who understood some of the legacy equipment.  He expressed doubts about being able to change her pay much.  I also pointed out that she was three levels below the requirement for her position.

He must have looked into it and HR must have agreed it looked bad from a legal standpoint, because two months later she got "promoted" to the proper level.


I'm proud of you for looking out.

/straight, no sarcasm
 
2022-02-09 3:20:33 PM  

common sense is an oxymoron: AmbassadorBooze: common sense is an oxymoron: AmbassadorBooze: All jobs should pay the same.

Problem solved.

The amount paid should be zero.  We should all be working towards the continuation and expansion of the collective.  Getting more resources and bio matter into the sphere of influence for the collective.

Maybe you should try leading by example.

I do.  As a collective of one, all my resources go towards the support of the collective and expanding the collective.

Resistance has not been futile, but I think once the collective gets critical mass it will really take off.

With zero income, where did those resources come from? Or did you build them yourself?



Forget it Jake, it's 'sovereign collective' town.
 
2022-02-09 3:31:46 PM  

aneki: It's actually a tricky situation for some jobs. For example, in my field, the range for senior level people depends not only on seniority but their skill-set. So a posted range would literally be 90k - 165k. I don't see how that will be remotely useful to job seekers, but ok.


Guess what? Those jobs are the minority of jobs.
 
2022-02-09 3:32:34 PM  

Glockenspiel Hero: In fairness it can get tricky when you have a wide range.  One of the jobs I advertised recently could have gone to anyone from a recent Masters to an experienced Ph.D with something like a factor of 2 difference in salary.  Posting the range can be an issue since you'll get the newbie assuming they can ask for the top end and the Ph.D. assuming we're going to lowball them.  (Ended up offering the Ph.D. almost the max; she negotiated for the rest of it)

/Will admit it's nice to save time when I see an interesting job and note that it's $10k less than I'm already making.


So why not say "up to $X for masters and up to $Y for PhD"?
 
2022-02-09 3:38:55 PM  

austerity101: Glockenspiel Hero: In fairness it can get tricky when you have a wide range.  One of the jobs I advertised recently could have gone to anyone from a recent Masters to an experienced Ph.D with something like a factor of 2 difference in salary.  Posting the range can be an issue since you'll get the newbie assuming they can ask for the top end and the Ph.D. assuming we're going to lowball them.  (Ended up offering the Ph.D. almost the max; she negotiated for the rest of it)

/Will admit it's nice to save time when I see an interesting job and note that it's $10k less than I'm already making.

So why not say "up to $X for masters and up to $Y for PhD"?


Because they don't want their current employees to find out that they are being paid less than the new hires.
 
2022-02-09 3:41:58 PM  

mcreadyblue: austerity101: Glockenspiel Hero: In fairness it can get tricky when you have a wide range.  One of the jobs I advertised recently could have gone to anyone from a recent Masters to an experienced Ph.D with something like a factor of 2 difference in salary.  Posting the range can be an issue since you'll get the newbie assuming they can ask for the top end and the Ph.D. assuming we're going to lowball them.  (Ended up offering the Ph.D. almost the max; she negotiated for the rest of it)

/Will admit it's nice to save time when I see an interesting job and note that it's $10k less than I'm already making.

So why not say "up to $X for masters and up to $Y for PhD"?

Because they don't want their current employees to find out that they are being paid less than the new hires.


Yeah, that was the point of my pressing the point. They are clearly paying those with a  masters less than a PhD but they don't want to actually admit this out loud.

This is the exact problem this thread is about.
 
2022-02-09 3:49:45 PM  

common sense is an oxymoron: AmbassadorBooze: common sense is an oxymoron: AmbassadorBooze: All jobs should pay the same.

Problem solved.

The amount paid should be zero.  We should all be working towards the continuation and expansion of the collective.  Getting more resources and bio matter into the sphere of influence for the collective.

Maybe you should try leading by example.

I do.  As a collective of one, all my resources go towards the support of the collective and expanding the collective.

Resistance has not been futile, but I think once the collective gets critical mass it will really take off.

With zero income, where did those resources come from? Or did you build them yourself?


I have income.  I pay net taxes, just like all other chumps.  The collective has not reached critical mass.
 
2022-02-09 4:02:34 PM  
Usually a company has a pre-set salary range for a position. I know my job and the potential range for my position - I make close to the top of the range so I know what others at the same level are making as well. If I get a promotion to the next level, the range bumps up by ~25%, so I have a rough idea of the salary of my other coworkers, too.

I've been approached by recruiters dozens of times, but I've never really had an issue with any of them being hesitant to tell me the range, but I do make sure I tell them my expectation early in the first screening interview so I don't waste my time. Companies are still trying to start everyone at the bottom of the range - even though my requirement is near the top of it.

Knowing the potential salary is great, but knowing it is too low for the job and complaining about not being able to find employees willing to accept the pay is another.

/No, I'm not going to do this stressful supply chain job AND be a people manager
//Definitely not for the pay you are offering.
///Supply chain is an in-demand field and people are leaving it in droves because of the stress. Pay people more and treat them better.
 
2022-02-09 4:08:53 PM  

austerity101: mcreadyblue: austerity101: Glockenspiel Hero: In fairness it can get tricky when you have a wide range.  One of the jobs I advertised recently could have gone to anyone from a recent Masters to an experienced Ph.D with something like a factor of 2 difference in salary.  Posting the range can be an issue since you'll get the newbie assuming they can ask for the top end and the Ph.D. assuming we're going to lowball them.  (Ended up offering the Ph.D. almost the max; she negotiated for the rest of it)

/Will admit it's nice to save time when I see an interesting job and note that it's $10k less than I'm already making.

So why not say "up to $X for masters and up to $Y for PhD"?

Because they don't want their current employees to find out that they are being paid less than the new hires.

Yeah, that was the point of my pressing the point. They are clearly paying those with a  masters less than a PhD but they don't want to actually admit this out loud.

This is the exact problem this thread is about.


No because we're also taking into account experience.  We'd offer a masters with 20 years of experience more than a new PhD, for example.

I recognize this isn't the norm- in my case we're a small, very flexible group where background can vary widely.  (Says the guy who technically doesn't have a degree in my field but has the experience)
 
2022-02-09 4:37:41 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: common sense is an oxymoron: AmbassadorBooze: common sense is an oxymoron: AmbassadorBooze: All jobs should pay the same.

Problem solved.

The amount paid should be zero. We should all be working towards the continuation and expansion of the collective.  Getting more resources and bio matter into the sphere of influence for the collective.

Maybe you should try leading by example.

I do.  As a collective of one, all my resources go towards the support of the collective and expanding the collective.

Resistance has not been futile, but I think once the collective gets critical mass it will really take off.

With zero income, where did those resources come from? Or did you build them yourself?

I have income.  I pay net taxes, just like all other chumps.  The collective has not reached critical mass.


More libertarian hypocrisy? Or am I just being redundant?
 
2022-02-09 4:56:03 PM  

austerity101: So why not say "up to $X for masters and up to $Y for PhD"?


Because more often than not, they don't actually know what the hell they're doing either. 9/10ths of management is projecting confidence and seeing what you can get away with.
 
2022-02-09 5:01:15 PM  

togaman2k: I've been approached by recruiters dozens of times, but I've never really had an issue with any of them being hesitant to tell me the range, but I do make sure I tell them my expectation early in the first screening interview so I don't waste my time.


I've had mixed experience with that sequence. Maybe some use the car salesman technique and hope that if they can get you to invest a ton of time, you'll be less inclined to stick to your stated parameters.

Anyway, there's no guarantee that they have any willingness or ability to meet the range they ask you to set even if they proceed from there.
 
2022-02-09 5:06:30 PM  

OccamsWhiskers: togaman2k: I've been approached by recruiters dozens of times, but I've never really had an issue with any of them being hesitant to tell me the range, but I do make sure I tell them my expectation early in the first screening interview so I don't waste my time.

I've had mixed experience with that sequence. Maybe some use the car salesman technique and hope that if they can get you to invest a ton of time, you'll be less inclined to stick to your stated parameters.

Anyway, there's no guarantee that they have any willingness or ability to meet the range they ask you to set even if they proceed from there.


It might be why I don't get a ton of callbacks, but at least I'm not going to waste my time.

I went through a couple of interviews and ended up declining offers after several rounds of discussions because I wasn't up front about expectations and salary wasn't discussed until the offer was made.

My last three jobs offered me the salary I wanted because I told them up front the number I wanted and it was within their expected range.

Every experience is different, though. Really dependent on the company
 
2022-02-09 5:26:03 PM  
 
2022-02-09 5:42:40 PM  
The last interview I had  , I flat out stated that I knew what they were going to pay , but I would take it , ( I was between assignments at the time ) , and after some time , we would have to revisit the issue , as they were getting me at a discount. And then a couple of months later , HR , which was one guy who hasn't been replaced , just left. Since then I have brought it up to the office drone who cannot for the life of her tell the truth. And it's just like Radio Shack - you've got questions , we have blank stares. And that's why , besides finding out zero benefits or even paid holidays, plus my hours are not close to what I agreed to , I browse the job boards every damn day.
 
2022-02-09 6:13:43 PM  

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: aneki: It's actually a tricky situation for some jobs. For example, in my field, the range for senior level people depends not only on seniority but their skill-set. So a posted range would literally be 90k - 165k. I don't see how that will be remotely useful to job seekers, but ok.

It's like that in my field too. No two jobs within the same skillset are exactly the same and the expectations vary widely.

Like: "We really want a magnificent purple unicorn but we'll happily settle for a sturdy roan pony as long as they have good teeth".


That would be magnificent to see in a help wanted.

Requirements
X1
x2
x3
desires
x4
x5
x6
Roan Pony Pay: 85-95k (depending on teeth)
Purple Unicorn Pay: $165k (must show horn)
 
2022-02-09 6:19:12 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: All jobs should pay the same.

Problem solved.

The amount paid should be zero.  We should all be working towards the continuation and expansion of the collective.  Getting more resources and bio matter into the sphere of influence for the collective.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-02-09 6:20:20 PM  
I applied to a position that tried to pull something like this. A lot of the interview questions were things like" how often did you just stop showing up to work" and "have  you ever left a job without notice," which I thought was very bizarre at the time.

Then they offered everyone about half what they promised. No one bit. No one. "But you said we'd be making x." "I don't even make x." "So you're lying to us. Okay, bye"

That's probably why no one showed up for the first day of work. And apparently no one ever stopped to consider why that might be.
 
2022-02-09 7:43:40 PM  
In 2019, I interviewed with a company who refused to give the range for their role. I refused to provide the first number, using the standard pushback of "let's wait till the end."

The offer that came in was lower than my current salary at the time.

What a waste of time for everyone involved.
 
2022-02-09 8:27:07 PM  
Posting salary ranges is now the law in Colorado. A few companies hiring remote positions wouldn't hire in CO for a hot minute but caved. It's a great law.
 
2022-02-09 8:35:53 PM  
aneki:

Anything above 130,000 you should be head hunted
 
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