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(MSNBC)   A study shows that the nations that fight COVID the best are the ones who trust the government and each other. So that's why we Americans are doomed   (msnbc.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Scientific method, Public health, Government, Sociology, Universal health care, Sovereign state, Science, Health care  
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797 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Feb 2022 at 7:05 PM (20 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-02-05 3:06:50 PM  
Another study that makes clear republicans are mass murders and killed more Americans than died in combat in all American wars. Republicans are murder death cult
 
2022-02-05 5:49:38 PM  
In northern countries like Canada (my home), if you don't trust each other you can end up freezing to death, dying of starvation or being mauled by wolves or bears.  I do feel having an environment actively trying to kill you, can force people to work together and that is part of Canada's shared subconscious memory..

Maybe when you grow-up in places where you can eat off trees year round and won't die of hypothermia if you don't plan ahead, creates much more ruggedly independent citizens.
 
2022-02-05 7:06:48 PM  
Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.
 
2022-02-05 7:08:58 PM  
Doomed?  About a couple thousand Republican anti-vaxers are committing suicide by COVID everyday.  I've never felt more optimistic for America's future.
 
2022-02-05 7:10:11 PM  
Im not sure "doomed" is the correct word you're looking for.  Perhaps Balkanized?
 
2022-02-05 7:10:13 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.


Well, except for Sweden.
 
2022-02-05 7:10:16 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.


Umm, Sweden?
 
2022-02-05 7:11:31 PM  
In fairness, that's only one reason why you Americans are doomed.
 
2022-02-05 7:12:13 PM  
Um, I think there is plenty reason to suspect the US government of a variety of things...
 
2022-02-05 7:13:36 PM  
wHy WoN't biDen juSt LeAd?
 
2022-02-05 7:14:10 PM  
It's a striking finding, and goes some way toward explaining why the U.S. - an affluent democracy with high quality health care and superior preparation for a catastrophic biological event

Stopped reading there
 
2022-02-05 7:14:11 PM  
Well there are a lot of very stupid people doing a very stupid thing, which is uing GDP as an indicator of the ability to solve problems at scale. Meanwhile, GDP is connected to competition, which mean putting each other out of business to drive up short term gains for a small number of people; and telling those who are neither gainers nor unemployed by the competition that imperceptible changes in their own finances reflect stability of theg ains rather than the instability of the out-of-buisness. Economists are farkers.
 
2022-02-05 7:15:21 PM  
Trumps SchitShow Presser 100% set the stage for this Plague Debacle. Period
 
2022-02-05 7:15:28 PM  
I think the Swedish instance is different. The people trusted the government but the government made a good-faith completely wrong decision.
 
2022-02-05 7:16:41 PM  

SplittingAces: wHy WoN't biDen juSt LeAd?


wHy WonT ConsERvaTiVEs jUsT LisTEn tO ReASoN?


/Because if they could, they wouldn't be conservatives
 
2022-02-05 7:17:21 PM  
Rightwingers are untrustworthy.
 
2022-02-05 7:18:10 PM  

Halfabee64: Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.

Umm, Sweden?


Sweden was the cautionary tale because it showed that the "let 'er rip" approach that people in this country kept trying to force into us didn't result in any economic gain but a lot more deaths in comparison to their neighbors".
 
2022-02-05 7:18:52 PM  
COVID's a test of character as much as it's a disease.

Lot of people failing.
 
2022-02-05 7:21:18 PM  

mrshowrules: In northern countries like Canada (my home), if you don't trust each other you can end up freezing to death, dying of starvation or being mauled by wolves or bears.  I do feel having an environment actively trying to kill you, can force people to work together and that is part of Canada's shared subconscious memory..

Maybe when you grow-up in places where you can eat off trees year round and won't die of hypothermia if you don't plan ahead, creates much more ruggedly independent citizens.


Counter point. The red states along the Canadian border. Maybe even one south of each. Either way I'd put a montana/dakota winter against anywhere else in the northern hemisphere that has people.

Also texas winters now. Though that might be recent enough to be more of a case study.
 
2022-02-05 7:22:36 PM  
While I understand it has done some farked up things and everybody should view the government with certain reasonable amounts of skepticism, this right wing view of the government as an all oppressive deep state with no redeeming qualities is messed up. Considering they seem to elect the most insane, lying, corrupt, and self-serving people possible; their messed up views of government become self-fulfilling prophecies. We do have the ability if we try real hard to put halfway normal competent people to have a better working more efficient government. Unfortunately that is against the GQP agenda because for them a well run successful nation is bad politics.
 
2022-02-05 7:23:06 PM  
Americans have no real sense of community. We separate ourselves into tribal communities because it makes us comfortable.
 
2022-02-05 7:25:41 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Halfabee64: Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.

Umm, Sweden?

Sweden was the cautionary tale because it showed that the "let 'er rip" approach that people in this country kept trying to force into us didn't result in any economic gain but a lot more deaths in comparison to their neighbors".


"Vwe Svwedes are a harty boonch.  Vwe vwill survive vwith our göt löks unt beetersnitchübbersvwitchen!"

*Scientist to the left coughs*
 
2022-02-05 7:28:37 PM  

Petey4335: Americans have no real sense of community. We separate ourselves into tribal communities because it makes us comfortable.


Individualism has its pros and cons.

The obvious con is when its taken to ridiculous extremes like it is in some parts of this country to the point that it becomes counterproductive.

I don't think going full collective is the answer either but it's probably somewhere between those two.
 
2022-02-05 7:28:56 PM  
blogger.googleusercontent.comView Full Size
 
2022-02-05 7:29:31 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Halfabee64: Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.

Umm, Sweden?

Sweden was the cautionary tale because it showed that the "let 'er rip" approach that people in this country kept trying to force into us didn't result in any economic gain but a lot more deaths in comparison to their neighbors".


Yup. Sweden was a great test case that showed that keeping a libertarian (little-L libertarian) mindset did not help either health-wise or economically. When you care more about your bottom line than people, you get neither.
 
2022-02-05 7:30:42 PM  

wildsnowllama: Mrtraveler01: Halfabee64: Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.

Umm, Sweden?

Sweden was the cautionary tale because it showed that the "let 'er rip" approach that people in this country kept trying to force into us didn't result in any economic gain but a lot more deaths in comparison to their neighbors".

"Vwe Svwedes are a harty boonch.  Vwe vwill survive vwith our göt löks unt beetersnitchübbersvwitchen!"

*Scientist to the left coughs*


I've been to Sweden (Stockholm) and I've been to Norway (Oslo). Norwegians are way better looking that Swedes.
 
2022-02-05 7:32:33 PM  
We the people have made bad decisions and we shall pay an unholy price for that but not alone. So many of those that depend on U. S. fade away with us.
 
2022-02-05 7:35:36 PM  

Petey4335: Americans have no real sense of community. We separate ourselves into tribal communities because it makes us comfortable.


United States, not "Giant-ass community". By our founding, we are a bunch of arbitrarily divided people.
 
2022-02-05 7:38:47 PM  

mrshowrules: In northern countries like Canada (my home), if you don't trust each other you can end up freezing to death, dying of starvation or being mauled by wolves or bears.  I do feel having an environment actively trying to kill you, can force people to work together and that is part of Canada's shared subconscious memory..

Maybe when you grow-up in places where you can eat off trees year round and won't die of hypothermia if you don't plan ahead, creates much more ruggedly independent citizens.


Probably a terrible time to point out that the Canadian capitol is currently occupied by anti vaxers.
 
2022-02-05 7:46:11 PM  

dericwater: Mrtraveler01: Halfabee64: Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.

Umm, Sweden?

Sweden was the cautionary tale because it showed that the "let 'er rip" approach that people in this country kept trying to force into us didn't result in any economic gain but a lot more deaths in comparison to their neighbors".

Yup. Sweden was a great test case that showed that keeping a libertarian (little-L libertarian) mindset did not help either health-wise or economically. When you care more about your bottom line than people, you get neither.


Yep. Norway took COVID a lot more seriously and still managed to outperform Sweden economically.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-02-05 7:47:20 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-02-05 7:53:44 PM  

Bith Set Me Up: [Fark user image image 750x627]


My gift to USA
Youtube PguJ-lm4uLg


/It may be 13 minutes long but it's good
 
2022-02-05 8:02:22 PM  

johnphantom: Um, I think there is plenty reason to suspect the US government of a variety of things...


Agreed with so many conservatives in government it has caused an erosion of trust. Reagan and the philosophy of modern conservatism is anathema to good governance.
 
2022-02-05 8:02:50 PM  

dericwater: wildsnowllama: Mrtraveler01: Halfabee64: Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.

Umm, Sweden?

Sweden was the cautionary tale because it showed that the "let 'er rip" approach that people in this country kept trying to force into us didn't result in any economic gain but a lot more deaths in comparison to their neighbors".

"Vwe Svwedes are a harty boonch.  Vwe vwill survive vwith our göt löks unt beetersnitchübbersvwitchen!"

*Scientist to the left coughs*

I've been to Sweden (Stockholm) and I've been to Norway (Oslo). Norwegians are way better looking that Swedes.


Danes are better looking than both.

No, my Danish wife is not right behind me.  Certainly not.
 
2022-02-05 8:04:28 PM  

mrshowrules: Maybe when you grow-up in places where you can eat off trees year round and won't die of hypothermia if you don't plan ahead, creates much more ruggedly independent citizens.


Unless people are community minded, someone will mess it up by hoarding resources.

They'll pick all the fruit that one can reach from the ground.  Then they'll rent ladders to people so they can pick the fruit that cannot be reached from the ground.  Enough people will "appreciate the ingenuity" of this person to respect them.  They'll offer to protect that person't property for enough fruit to feed their family.  Eventually it becomes the norm for people to pick fruit for this person for just a share of the fruit.

...


And then the guillotine is invented.
 
2022-02-05 8:32:13 PM  
c.tenor.comView Full Size
 
2022-02-05 8:40:32 PM  
So, if I'm getting this right -

Some nations built their cultures on communal action to solve communal problems.  Leaders are the ones most able to win group support.

America built its culture by killing the locals and seizing their property.  Leaders are the ones who build the biggest pile of cash from doing that.

Sounds accurate.
 
2022-02-05 8:49:42 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-02-05 8:54:37 PM  
It is great that people are bringing up Sweden.

I see it like this.

There are "stick to the plan" countries. A lot of those are in Asia because of SARS and MERS and other recent outbreaks. They knew the drill. They gamed it and gamed it and they had the playbooks on the shelf. Those playbooks were figured out over many years by people who knew better and knew best practices. Fauci is not THAT RARE of a personage when you look at governments in Asia. There are a lot of Fauci types and groups of them.

Sweden is, unfortunately, a "too smart by half" country. They are aloof and mostly figuring that they have the best people and yet they are not elbow deep in public health for dense populations all the time. So they figured that they had cracked the code and got off to a terrible start.

And once you get a bad start, you lose public trust and everyone starts second guessing, and you are off to the races.

Japan, from my observation, has managed things "well." It is not the best by any objective measure, but it has done very well on almost every measure. It has kept sputtering along. Deaths, but not too many. Economic stagnation, but what else is new. Never a lockdown. Never an overwhelmed medical situation. If it had optimized on ANY ONE parameter, its other parameters would have cratered. CASE IN POINT... suicide. It is controversial whether the number of extra suicides has exceeded COVID deaths, and whether policy has done that. Smart people look at the data and say it is a wash. But everyone seems to agree that harsh economic measures will probably kill as many people as will be saved.

I'm a fan. Japan's reasonably competent bureaucrats have done really well compared to almost anywhere. They have managed things well. And they made their statements very early about how this was going to be managed, and they stuck to it.

That is what I have to say about government.
 
2022-02-05 9:04:05 PM  
Are you guys aware that the Biden Administration disbanded the only Federal hospital death reporting system on Wednesday? Good times.  Good times.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/02/03/deat-f03.html
 
2022-02-05 9:24:03 PM  
What will never EVER cease to amaze me is that the people that distrust the government and teachers the most, put their trust in idiots like TFG.

Also, the people who distrust those people the most are the ones that actually NEED those people the most.
 
2022-02-05 9:25:06 PM  
Here is what I can say about "trusting each other."

Masks. Hand desanitizer. Distancing. Consciousness. Consideration. SIGNALING.

It is all signaling. If someone told me today that masks really do not do any good in a medical sense, I might or might not believe them. But it does not MATTER! It is trivial! What matters is that I do my part because everyone I meet, every person at a shop or restaurant or in a train station or on a bus, or even delivering something to my home respects me, the government, everyone else, and themselves.

You do not let up or slack off. Why? Because nobody has sounded the all-clear. Because the disease is deadly. Because someone is dying somewhere and it sure as hell is not going to be my fault. And I am not going to be the guy to sink my family. Does that make me a sheep?

These simple measures are not so bothersome. Not really. They are not expensive. And everyone is doing it, so you do your best anyway. Is it common sense?

My wife says that Japan has "succeeded" because of its elementary education system. Everyone knows WHY you take off your shoes, or switch shoes for slippers inside a building. Every kid gives food to every other kid at lunchtime in elementary schools, so they understand the need for hygiene. For everyone. You wash your hands. You have to wear a mask sometimes. On Sports days, you are part of a team, not competing as an individual. Everyone cleans the classroom. Shirking is not "cool." It is lazy and antisocial. Deep down, everyone knows how to behave, if only because they learned as first graders how to be a human being.

(Heard in a 7-11: Did you forget your mask? You can buy one for 10 yen.)

Social stability requires sacrifices of everyone. Public health does too. Early on in 2020, if things had not worked well, who knows what would have happened? But the measures DID work, which means that everyone could have some confidence that their collective action was meaningful. Building on that, Japan was able to move forward. And NOBODY, from the prime minister to the guy riding the truck collecting the trash, was going to screw that up.

I am a fan. This whole thing has not been top down or bottom up. It seems to me that everyone is laser focused on doing their best to get past all this. And that is not so selfish because I can't be out of danger until the people around me are out of danger. Naturally. So, we, global we, truly are all in this together.

In an increasingly mad world, this seems to be correct thought on the matter.
 
2022-02-05 9:25:11 PM  

mrshowrules: In northern countries like Canada (my home), if you don't trust each other you can end up freezing to death, dying of starvation or being mauled by wolves or bears.  I do feel having an environment actively trying to kill you, can force people to work together and that is part of Canada's shared subconscious memory..

Maybe when you grow-up in places where you can eat off trees year round and won't die of hypothermia if you don't plan ahead, creates much more ruggedly independent citizens.


Considering the rate of natural disasters. How do you explain Florida?
 
2022-02-05 9:27:07 PM  

SavageWombat: So, if I'm getting this right -

Some nations built their cultures on communal action to solve communal problems.  Leaders are the ones most able to win group support.

America built its culture by killing the locals and seizing their property.  Leaders are the ones who build the biggest pile of cash from doing that.

Sounds accurate.


Sounds pretty confirmation bias to me.
 
2022-02-05 9:28:12 PM  
The nations that fight COVID the best are the ones who trust the government and each other

So, the ones that don't have Rupert Murdoch serving up the news.
 
2022-02-05 9:29:34 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.


That story is probably too complex for this venue.

I'm betting they don't filter everything through a reductive binary the way we do.
 
2022-02-05 9:33:51 PM  

Mrtraveler01: dericwater: Mrtraveler01: Halfabee64: Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.

Umm, Sweden?

Sweden was the cautionary tale because it showed that the "let 'er rip" approach that people in this country kept trying to force into us didn't result in any economic gain but a lot more deaths in comparison to their neighbors".

Yup. Sweden was a great test case that showed that keeping a libertarian (little-L libertarian) mindset did not help either health-wise or economically. When you care more about your bottom line than people, you get neither.

Yep. Norway took COVID a lot more seriously and still managed to outperform Sweden economically.

[Fark user image image 425x582]


I wonder how much that dip in GDP for Spain was the country nationalizing the hospitals.
 
2022-02-05 9:35:34 PM  

Naido: Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.

That story is probably too complex for this venue.

I'm betting they don't filter everything through a reductive binary the way we do.


Whoops.  This story:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN24G2IS
 
2022-02-05 9:37:43 PM  

Petey4335: Americans have no real sense of community. We separate ourselves into tribal communities because it makes us comfortable.


Mostly because that's what this nation was built upon and how it tried to design its immigration policies.  For the longest time, people had to be the correct kind of white to experience all the freedoms this country promised everyone.  If you were BIPOC, LGBTQ+, or a woman, you were (and still are) SOL.  Shade of white doesn't matter much anymore.  Politicians have done their best to keep this the status quo, because what good is being rich if you can't oppress people different from you?
 
2022-02-05 9:48:08 PM  

guinsu: Mrtraveler01: dericwater: Mrtraveler01: Halfabee64: Mrtraveler01: Obvious tag in the ICU?

The Nordic countries have been proving this to us since this whole thimg started.

Umm, Sweden?

Sweden was the cautionary tale because it showed that the "let 'er rip" approach that people in this country kept trying to force into us didn't result in any economic gain but a lot more deaths in comparison to their neighbors".

Yup. Sweden was a great test case that showed that keeping a libertarian (little-L libertarian) mindset did not help either health-wise or economically. When you care more about your bottom line than people, you get neither.

Yep. Norway took COVID a lot more seriously and still managed to outperform Sweden economically.

[Fark user image image 425x582]

I wonder how much that dip in GDP for Spain was the country nationalizing the hospitals.


It's probably a combination of that and having an economy heavily reliant on tourism.
 
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