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(Columbus Dispatch)   Ohio lured Intel by touting the wonderful, progressive, and beautiful people and places the state has to offer. JK they handed them $2 billion in incentives. But hey, state taxes are already high; what's another percent or two?   (dispatch.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, Taxation in the United States, Taxation, United States, Ohio's biggest economic development project, State income tax, Federal tax revenue by state, city of New Albany, property tax abatement  
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760 clicks; posted to Business » on 29 Jan 2022 at 9:05 AM (15 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-01-29 9:08:33 AM  
It's true that companies that don't pay taxes are a drain on State coffers.

But execs who get giant bonuses contribute to political campaigns, so it works out.
 
2022-01-29 9:39:13 AM  
Foxconn seen waiting in outer office.
 
2022-01-29 9:43:11 AM  
As a nonresident of Ohio, I think this is great.
 
2022-01-29 9:44:29 AM  
 
2022-01-29 9:50:15 AM  
Good ole' corporate welfare. Right.
 
2022-01-29 9:51:38 AM  
This is going to be just like Foxconn in Wisconsin, isn't it?
 
2022-01-29 9:52:11 AM  

Al Tsheimers: Foxconn seen waiting in outer office.


* shakes tiny fist *
 
2022-01-29 9:53:04 AM  
So I guess that the conservative complaints about socialism all boil down to who ends up with all the control. Conservatives are fine with industry using public money as long as all the profit and control stays I private hands. I don't like that approach at all. Especially when we see how the wages are distributed.

I guess it is a popular way to do things around here, but I don't see any good reasons for doing it that way.
 
2022-01-29 9:56:17 AM  

Al Tsheimers: Foxconn seen waiting in outer office.


How dare you!  Foxconn just qualified for their first ever tax credit!  JOBS JOBS JOBS!  MAGA, biatches!
 
2022-01-29 9:57:12 AM  
Even presuming the jobs and wages are accurate (they're not), those add up to $400M. So for at least the first five years of the fabs' lives, taxpayers effectively are on the hook for paying Intel's workers.

And this presumes Intel is a more responsible corporation than Foxconn.
 
2022-01-29 10:35:26 AM  
Akron?  Not so much.  Dayton?  Toledo?  Ick.

But Columbus (New Albany) is nice.
 
2022-01-29 10:50:48 AM  
Meh, Ohio needs to lure some good industry back to try and lure some people back to the state. The Intel plant is likely to lure all sorts of related businesses too. Honestly as much as it sucks big business gets these sweetheart deals, it's not hard to see why they get them, especially when every other state is doing their best to offer a hand out too. It's a bidding war and if you don't think your state is involved in it, I don't think you're paying attention.
 
2022-01-29 10:53:41 AM  
For that price they could have had the summer Olympics.
 
2022-01-29 10:54:13 AM  
They will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000.

I find this most difficult to believe.
 
2022-01-29 11:02:23 AM  

edmo: They will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000.

I find this most difficult to believe.


One guy making $315M and 2999 people making $30k gives an average salary of $135,000.
 
2022-01-29 11:20:43 AM  
So to recoup:
looking at about 666 jobs @ $60k a year for 50 years.

Real math there.
2 bill/payrate(60k) = how many jobs@pay rate are possible/amount of time to sustain = how many jobs@pay rate for how long to "recoup" the 2 billion into the local economy through newly generated local incomes.
As people earning more money need less in social services, is the assumption used to claim we can not tax the biz, but still come out ahead for it.


You can fill in the blanks with whatever you imagine is reasonable on the pay rates and amount of time that should go on for.

Like maybe more jobs at lower pay rates or fewer jobs at higher rates, trade off pay rats for time or make a few people flush with cash in a shorter time. Whatever you imagine is best for a local community, see if the math can work out for them.

Also how many people get how much, really matters most when compared to the actual local population total, to see what % of the local people should get some economic uplift out of the deal.

My POV is, this is never really good for any of us, how can this be good for "us."
When own civilization is in a bidding war against itself, to see which group of us is willing to live off a smaller amount of the table scraps. While whoever those people are that take home "the lion's share" obviously can't be your own fellow citizens "in it with you."
At least not until they ask for you and your children to volunteer to the defense of their wealth. And if you won't do it out of a sense of duty to them, maybe being poor and hungry will help motivate you.
 
2022-01-29 11:24:55 AM  

keldaria: Meh, Ohio needs to lure some good industry back to try and lure some people back to the state. The Intel plant is likely to lure all sorts of related businesses too. Honestly as much as it sucks big business gets these sweetheart deals, it's not hard to see why they get them, especially when every other state is doing their best to offer a hand out too. It's a bidding war and if you don't think your state is involved in it, I don't think you're paying attention.


Exactly If Intel had a hint of interest in locating a $100 billion plant in your state, your representatives would be lining up to give them incentives, too. Intel in New Albany will be like Honda in Marysville. Not only will Intel employ people at their plant, suppliers will pop up around the plant, who will employ people, too. Those employees will also need services, like grocery stores, restaurants, car repair shops, ect., who will also employ people.
 
2022-01-29 11:43:18 AM  
On the bright side. This may lure enough new non-redneck voters to tip Ohio blue. Ohio is one of the battleground states that determines entire elections.
I can hope.
Insert dontgivemehope.jpg here.
 
2022-01-29 11:45:24 AM  

keldaria: Meh, Ohio needs to lure some good industry back to try and lure some people back to the state. The Intel plant is likely to lure all sorts of related businesses too. Honestly as much as it sucks big business gets these sweetheart deals, it's not hard to see why they get them, especially when every other state is doing their best to offer a hand out too. It's a bidding war and if you don't think your state is involved in it, I don't think you're paying attention.


The issue isn't that we're all stupid and just can't understand why this happens, it's that we're smart and see how this encourages a race to the bottom where we are all competing to earn as little as possible.
 
2022-01-29 11:47:12 AM  

psilocyberguy: Good ole' corporate welfare. Right.


Stop that!!

Murcan capitalists love the free market economy system!

Its only welfare when public money doesnt go to companies and their lazy sit at home stock owners.
 
2022-01-29 11:49:40 AM  

falkone32: keldaria: Meh, Ohio needs to lure some good industry back to try and lure some people back to the state. The Intel plant is likely to lure all sorts of related businesses too. Honestly as much as it sucks big business gets these sweetheart deals, it's not hard to see why they get them, especially when every other state is doing their best to offer a hand out too. It's a bidding war and if you don't think your state is involved in it, I don't think you're paying attention.

The issue isn't that we're all stupid and just can't understand why this happens, it's that we're smart and see how this encourages a race to the bottom where we are all competing to earn as little as possible.



Our future:

BioShock Infinite Job Auction Bidding Citizens Town Square Plaza of Zeal Finkton
Youtube 4AVihhOrVUI
 
2022-01-29 11:49:51 AM  

aaronx: So I guess that the conservative complaints about socialism all boil down to who ends up with all the control. Conservatives are fine with industry using public money as long as all the profit and control stays I private hands. I don't like that approach at all. Especially when we see how the wages are distributed.

I guess it is a popular way to do things around here, but I don't see any good reasons for doing it that way.


Its okay!

All the ownership class in murca wants is all the money and all the power/control.

Thats all they want.  The Darlings!
 
2022-01-29 11:50:56 AM  

MadHatter500: edmo: They will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000.

I find this most difficult to believe.

One guy making $315M and 2999 people making $30k gives an average salary of $135,000.


Fookin math!
 
2022-01-29 12:01:45 PM  

falkone32: keldaria: Meh, Ohio needs to lure some good industry back to try and lure some people back to the state. The Intel plant is likely to lure all sorts of related businesses too. Honestly as much as it sucks big business gets these sweetheart deals, it's not hard to see why they get them, especially when every other state is doing their best to offer a hand out too. It's a bidding war and if you don't think your state is involved in it, I don't think you're paying attention.

The issue isn't that we're all stupid and just can't understand why this happens, it's that we're smart and see how this encourages a race to the bottom where we are all competing to earn as little as possible.


Yes, you are very smart, you've observed the basic tenants of capitalism of what our entire culture seems irreparable based.

Complaining about individual deals is stupid, especially at this point since this has only happened every time any large employer has ever decided to build/expand/move their facilities.
 
2022-01-29 1:01:10 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-01-29 1:55:50 PM  

FarkingChas: This may lure enough new non-redneck voters to tip Ohio blue.


I dunno, the engineering school I attended wasn't exactly a hotbed of progressivism.
 
2022-01-29 2:54:36 PM  

MoriartyLives: Akron?  Not so much.  Dayton?  Toledo?  Ick.

But Columbus (New Albany) is nice.


If you want literally every building to have the exact same brick look, sure.
 
2022-01-29 3:00:03 PM  
This should be illegal. 

It should be illegal to literally give money to companies to move their facilities to your state.
 
2022-01-29 3:01:34 PM  
Boycott intel.  Problem solved.
 
2022-01-29 3:23:23 PM  

MoriartyLives: Akron?  Not so much.  Dayton?  Toledo?  Ick.

But Columbus (New Albany) is nice.


Not once we turn the plant on. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4090871/

It certainly used to be beautiful, if mostly farmland and woods.  Now?  It's a congested mess of endless construction/repair cycle, mcmansions housing developments, and chain dining.  There is a pretty good greek joint called "Greek Express"...so that's something.
 
2022-01-29 3:24:15 PM  

aaronx: So I guess that the conservative complaints about socialism all boil down to who ends up with all the control. ...I guess it is a popular way to do things around here, but I don't see any good reasons for doing it that way.


Well, the theory is simple. The parents of Ohio are being paid their wages at Intel. Intel is getting the oney from the children of Ohio, who will be earning taht money when they grow up and pay off Ohio's debts and deficits. Ohio children are happy to pay their parents' wages. And anyhow, that way, Intel doesn't actually need to produce any wealth or run a profit. In fact, Intel doesn't need to do any accounting as a busines at all, because all their costs can be covered by the taxpayers of tomorrow, by putting the $2 billion in incentives on their ledger. The children of Ohio love Intel and are happy to do that for them.
 
2022-01-29 3:28:00 PM  

FarkingChas: Our future:

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/4AVihhOrVUI]


That's your present, dude.
 
2022-01-29 4:08:52 PM  

psilocyberguy: Good ole' corporate welfare socialism. Right.

 
2022-01-29 4:10:19 PM  

edmo: They will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000.

I find this most difficult to believe.


remember how averages work
 
2022-01-29 5:41:20 PM  
At the total price wouldn't be cheaper to give 3000 Ohio residents money to open their own Wendy's franchise. It would probably create even more jobs to work at all those franchises (and help a company that has been in Ohio since it's founding) and those jobs will probably last almost as long (or until all those franchises go belly up).

/sarcasm
 
2022-01-29 5:59:45 PM  

edmo: They will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000.

I find this most difficult to believe.


A cookie company was lured to this area several years ago. They were given the building, and all utilities were free for the first ten years. Because they promised the average full-time wage was $20/hr. And it is, after you work at a temp-agency for one year at $11/hr.
 
2022-01-29 6:15:04 PM  
I'll wager than ohio will allow Intel to dump heavy metals and toxins into the rivers untreated, cuz that's how republicans roll. I guess people in ohio either love cancer or want to buy bottled water.
 
2022-01-29 7:33:05 PM  
So the federal government will once again pay a red state to give lower taxes to a corporation which will be taking away blue state jobs?
 
2022-01-29 8:13:46 PM  

tricycleracer: For that price they could have had the summer Olympics.


At least a major semiconductor plant won't cost an assload of money, lose money in operation, AND then be abandoned to become a second huge expense to demolish, all in the span of a year.
 
2022-01-29 8:25:55 PM  

edmo: They will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000.

I find this most difficult to believe.


You have a hard time believing that a place where a Master's degree and several years of relevant lab experience is the minimum just to get your foot in the door will pay $135K on average?
 
2022-01-29 8:52:58 PM  
eliminate all corporate taxes and you won't have difficulty getting business to come to your state.
 
2022-01-29 9:29:16 PM  
10 years after the plant is built?

"Why are there so many potholes?  This city sucks!"
"Why is there so much traffic?"
"Why are sales taxes going up?"
 
2022-01-30 2:04:45 AM  
Heh, I just had a primer on subsidies in the US in my last episode. At least this was for two new chip fabs and possibly up to eight, not a 100 pump gas station like Springfield MO is paying $9.2 million for. Though I'd feel better about it if the government just built the thing and operated it on contract for Intel or whomever wanted it. But chip fabs are something that is in the interests of national security.

Also nearly $700 million is for infrastructure such as road upgrades, electricity upgrades and water upgrades to support the plant and expected economic and residential growth to accommodate the plant. Infrastructure like that is absolutely the province of the state and unless the state is including things like grading the ground and paving their parking lots is kind of not really giving the company money. At least, that's my view of it.

I wish they would talk about median wages though, not average. For a chip fab, it's probably going to be pretty high compared to say a 100 pump gas station. But median is really what matters in these conversations.
 
2022-01-30 4:09:41 AM  

BolloxReader: Heh, I just had a primer on subsidies in the US in my last episode. At least this was for two new chip fabs and possibly up to eight, not a 100 pump gas station like Springfield MO is paying $9.2 million for. Though I'd feel better about it if the government just built the thing and operated it on contract for Intel or whomever wanted it. But chip fabs are something that is in the interests of national security.

Also nearly $700 million is for infrastructure such as road upgrades, electricity upgrades and water upgrades to support the plant and expected economic and residential growth to accommodate the plant. Infrastructure like that is absolutely the province of the state and unless the state is including things like grading the ground and paving their parking lots is kind of not really giving the company money. At least, that's my view of it.

I wish they would talk about median wages though, not average. For a chip fab, it's probably going to be pretty high compared to say a 100 pump gas station. But median is really what matters in these conversations.


Which is all well and good in some ways, but remember the conservatives whining about "You didn't build that..." from Warren and others?

Yeah, this is the literal display of it in business form. That fab, I'm assuming it will get built because Intel isn't FoxConn, and all the supporting infrastructure are basically being built by the city/county/state. So Intel is getting factory at an extremely discounted price, if not nearly free once you include interest payments and whatnot finance the construction of various items. Seems to me the city/county/state should get a portion of gross sales until all of that is paid off. Something tells me if the city/county/state had that rider as a common item, there would be less taxpayers getting fleeced by corporations.
 
2022-01-30 8:38:35 AM  

erik-k: edmo: They will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000.

I find this most difficult to believe.

You have a hard time believing that a place where a Master's degree and several years of relevant lab experience is the minimum just to get your foot in the door will pay $135K on average?


I work at a semiconductor fab. Unless you are top tier R&D? Nope. I make 70k as an equip eng with a decade of experience and a bachelor's. Line operators make less than 20 an hour. I would say median wages are 90 at the top end, even the plant head doesn't make over 150k, if that.
 
2022-01-30 9:00:37 AM  
Do you people know how many incentives China gives??

God damn, some short sighted people in this thread.
 
2022-01-30 10:10:29 AM  

Zeroth Law: erik-k: edmo: They will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000.

I find this most difficult to believe.

You have a hard time believing that a place where a Master's degree and several years of relevant lab experience is the minimum just to get your foot in the door will pay $135K on average?

I work at a semiconductor fab. Unless you are top tier R&D? Nope. I make 70k as an equip eng with a decade of experience and a bachelor's. Line operators make less than 20 an hour. I would say median wages are 90 at the top end, even the plant head doesn't make over 150k, if that.


Do you live in Alabama or Costa Rica or something? Those wages aren't going to attract those workers in this city.
 
2022-01-30 10:22:04 AM  

neongoats: Zeroth Law: erik-k: edmo: They will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000.

I find this most difficult to believe.

You have a hard time believing that a place where a Master's degree and several years of relevant lab experience is the minimum just to get your foot in the door will pay $135K on average?

I work at a semiconductor fab. Unless you are top tier R&D? Nope. I make 70k as an equip eng with a decade of experience and a bachelor's. Line operators make less than 20 an hour. I would say median wages are 90 at the top end, even the plant head doesn't make over 150k, if that.

Do you live in Alabama or Costa Rica or something? Those wages aren't going to attract those workers in this city.


North East, and the pay is similar for fabs in this region. And it was bumped up too. We're losing people, wonder why
 
2022-01-30 10:23:48 AM  
I'll move there if they offer me the same tax incentives for X yrs they offer corporations.
Then I'll just move in X-1 yrs before the tax breaks end, just like a corporation after consuming local resources, destroying the roads, and denying the schools the tax revenue the need to educate the children.
 
2022-01-30 12:46:17 PM  

Zeroth Law: erik-k: edmo: They will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000.

I find this most difficult to believe.

You have a hard time believing that a place where a Master's degree and several years of relevant lab experience is the minimum just to get your foot in the door will pay $135K on average?

I work at a semiconductor fab. Unless you are top tier R&D? Nope. I make 70k as an equip eng with a decade of experience and a bachelor's. Line operators make less than 20 an hour. I would say median wages are 90 at the top end, even the plant head doesn't make over 150k, if that.


No offense, but do you have an real engineering degree, or an "engineering technology" degree? Because the 2nd one doesn't lead to actual engineering jobs, it leads to technician jobs, which obviously pay less than engineering jobs.  I work for a major automotive manufacturer in the metro Detroit area. (suburbs, not actually Detroit) I make ~$135K/year with 14 years experience. Any 1st line manager of engineers makes $155K minimum. Our plant managers (3rd line) make well into the $200K or more. I can't give better numbers, because at that level, the salary bands are undefined.

Your salary numbers are either BS, or your plant makes extremely low tech chips like a 500nm node. That isn't Intel.
 
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