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(Jalopnik)   Elon continues the time-honored annual tradition of the promising of full self driving Tesla next year   (jalopnik.com) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Automobile, Tesla Motors, Elon Musk, Robot, Tesla's earnings, American films, Asset, adorable optimist Elon Musk  
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409 clicks; posted to STEM » on 29 Jan 2022 at 2:25 AM (16 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-01-28 10:45:04 PM  
Who would be liable when an auto driven vehicle kills? The state for allowing it, the manufacturer for building it, or the operator for using it?
 
2022-01-29 1:46:19 AM  
oh wonderful. Any year now.
 
2022-01-29 1:57:14 AM  

dickrickulous: Who would be liable when an auto driven vehicle kills? The state for allowing it, the manufacturer for building it, or the operator for using it?


The driver is liable.

I have a VD ID.4 that has driver assist steering and cruise control and I can pretty much let the car drive itself on the highway, but I still have to pay attention and keep ky hands on the wheel and foot ready to brake, because sometimes it screws up.
 
2022-01-29 2:18:12 AM  

dickrickulous: Who would be liable when an auto driven vehicle kills? The state for allowing it, the manufacturer for building it, or the operator for using it?


This is the 6 million dollar question. My personal opinion is that most real car manufacturers are standing around looking at their watches waiting for Tesla and the NHTSA to hammer out some rules and guidelines and recommended practices and all that other crap so that they can get on with development or releasing the products they have developed, but not released. Tesla has the money and the willingness to take the big risks, so let them. There is a reason Google and Apple are hanging back, and it aint money.

But nothing is happening. There have been accidents. There have been deaths. There have been lawsuits. There have been YouTube videos. Tesla does its updates and time goes by. Good thing we have enough computer chips to handle all of the processing for these systems.

So. Is Tesla "ahead?" Not really. It could have its whole arrangement declared a hazard tomorrow and recalled because it is a dangerous toy. Or it could be given a green light and then have 20 fatal accidents next year. There is no "achievement" or "system" that has been endorsed by the NHTSA, as far as I know. So it can't be blamed or sued.  And this brave new world is just kind of all being "allowed" to unfold.

It is a bizarre "model of progress" that seems very Victorian, if you ask me. Teams of rich wise guys working with eldritch forces, announcing progress in tents and pavilions at  World's Fairs. Guys with top hats and monocles watching intently, wanting to be the first at the club to have the next best thing. Bureaucrats rushing to catch up in every way imaginable. Children and women being trampled by horses pulling runaway carriages. And poor Tiny Tim being maimed for life by Scrooge's Tesla.

Speaking cynically and realistically, nobody will do anything to reign this in until a bunch more people die. And they will be North Americans. This has been a "given" for years now.

As far as Musk's behavior goes, this is just how he uses FUD and vaporware and allegations to paint his company in the best light. Of course he will overpromise. He just wants to give investors some reason to be distracted. They want to be distracted, so it is no problem.
 
2022-01-29 2:28:12 AM  
"My personal guess is by the end of this year" is a promise in Elon-obsessed, oil-soaked Boomers' minds.
 
2022-01-29 2:29:58 AM  

2fardownthread: He just wants to give investors some reason to be distracted


From a great Q4 and the release of a promising new battery pack architecture?

K
 
2022-01-29 2:39:14 AM  

dickrickulous: Who would be liable when an auto driven vehicle kills? The state for allowing it, the manufacturer for building it, or the operator for using it?


It depends on what stage of autonomous driving I imagine, also if it was functioning properly and if not why.

A fully automated vehicle functioning properly but involved in an accident would probably be the state if the flaw was preventable by legislation. The manufacturer if poorly constructed. The driver if tampered with.

Right now, no fully automatic cars are out of the prototype zone
 
2022-01-29 2:56:06 AM  
Old man yells at clouds .....

Not getting the push for self drive vehicles
 
2022-01-29 2:56:19 AM  

leeksfromchichis: dickrickulous: Who would be liable when an auto driven vehicle kills? The state for allowing it, the manufacturer for building it, or the operator for using it?

It depends on what stage of autonomous driving I imagine, also if it was functioning properly and if not why.

A fully automated vehicle functioning properly but involved in an accident would probably be the state if the flaw was preventable by legislation. The manufacturer if poorly constructed. The driver if tampered with.

Right now, no fully automatic cars are out of the prototype zone


Or the pedestrian if they stepped out into traffic / other driver causing it.
 
2022-01-29 2:58:20 AM  

make me some tea: dickrickulous: Who would be liable when an auto driven vehicle kills? The state for allowing it, the manufacturer for building it, or the operator for using it?

The driver is liable.

I have a VD ID.4 that has driver assist steering and cruise control and I can pretty much let the car drive itself on the highway, but I still have to pay attention and keep ky hands on the wheel and foot ready to brake, because sometimes it screws up.


Well that is an assertion. I totally accept it. Sure. I live my life that way. Except Elon doesn't, and he should know better than anyone else on the planet. I think he called it, again.. that euphemism.. what is it? Full on Self-Driving? He uses it now instead of Autopilot, I think.

See, he has this problem. He wants the system to take credit for doing all the tedious things associated with driving, but he does not want to take credit for the flaming carnage that it can produce. Nobody does. Totally understandable. Accidents are always somebody else's fault. Airbags are a godsend, unless of course, there is an accident that is the fault of the manufacturer. If those happen just a few times, or even once or twice, you can send any old 20 billion or 30 billion dollar company into the ground. Seatbelts are great. Defective seatbelts are a litigation magnet. And who decides what is defective? Sometimes it is just the media.

If, as you say, it is "the driver's fault," then Tesla can escape any liability for killing another human being. But if it is the driver's fault, then why rely on this device at all? Who needs it? Personally, I drive with no assist that is going to impede me if I need to do something. If I knew a system might impede me, I would be negligent to use it. Right? If I knew that a Tesla software glitch could kill a pedestrian in front of my car, but I used that software anyway, it is my fault, right? I bought the Tesla. I should have known! Future lawyers take note!

So it is not settled. People think they know how it all turns out, but until there is regulatory guidance, established practices, legal precedent, and insurance companies and others getting onboard, it is just "this thing that is happening."

There is a horse in the hospital.

Things might work out great. Or this could all be "something that humans just can't handle yet." Or some terrorist might hack Tesla's mainframe or whatever and have every Tesla in the world make a right turn exactly at 3 am Greenwich time next Tuesday.

/ that last one is just for fun. Kind of a lawnmower man thing.
 
2022-01-29 3:16:46 AM  

2fardownthread: Full on Self-Driving? He uses it now instead of Autopilot, I think.


It's the strong opinions based on zero knowledge. That's what does it for me 👍
 
2022-01-29 4:58:55 AM  
I'll admit that Elon got me. I'll probably sell the car before I'll ever see the feature I paid for. It's a nice, cool car but it ain't a FSD car.
 
2022-01-29 5:10:37 AM  

Likwit: 2fardownthread: Full on Self-Driving? He uses it now instead of Autopilot, I think.

It's the strong opinions based on zero knowledge. That's what does it for me 👍


Inform us all.

1. How many times has he stated the actual product name incorrectly in public?
2. How many times has the product name been changed?

Go.
 
2022-01-29 5:21:32 AM  
Yeah. That is what I thought.

Full-on self driving is a joke. Kind of my joke.

He has called it autonomous driving. He has called it FSD. He has called it Autopilot repeatedly.  He has said it would be feature complete by the end of 2020. He has claimed level 5 autonomy. He promised it by the end of 2017.  He predicted "complete autonomy" by 2018. There  have been 9 betas, and other versions apparently given to employees and others. Shall I call it a rose?

So you can claim someone is not knowledgeable, but what knowledge is there?

You seem to think whatever Elon Musk says is knowledge, and that changes daily. DAILY. So you go follow your guy and try to keep up with him. I will make jokes at how vague this genius is about something he does not take seriously.

My comments above are agnostic. I wish Elon the best because he is killing people who buy his products, and if nobody cares, well, nobody cares. I certainly can't stop them. If you want the killing to stop, write him a fan letter.
 
2022-01-29 5:22:08 AM  

2fardownthread: Likwit: 2fardownthread: Full on Self-Driving? He uses it now instead of Autopilot, I think.

It's the strong opinions based on zero knowledge. That's what does it for me 👍

Inform us all.

1. How many times has he stated the actual product name incorrectly in public?
2. How many times has the product name been changed?

Go.


1) never
2) zero
 
2022-01-29 5:24:34 AM  

2fardownthread: Yeah. That is what I thought.

Full-on self driving is a joke. Kind of my joke.

He has called it autonomous driving. He has called it FSD. He has called it Autopilot repeatedly.  He has said it would be feature complete by the end of 2020. He has claimed level 5 autonomy. He promised it by the end of 2017.  He predicted "complete autonomy" by 2018. There  have been 9 betas, and other versions apparently given to employees and others. Shall I call it a rose?

So you can claim someone is not knowledgeable, but what knowledge is there?

You seem to think whatever Elon Musk says is knowledge, and that changes daily. DAILY. So you go follow your guy and try to keep up with him. I will make jokes at how vague this genius is about something he does not take seriously.

My comments above are agnostic. I wish Elon the best because he is killing people who buy his products, and if nobody cares, well, nobody cares. I certainly can't stop them. If you want the killing to stop, write him a fan letter.


It's not just a lack of knowledge, it's the sheer confidence you have in your ignorance. You wallow in it like a pig in mud. And if someone says, "hey, maybe you should try a bathtub," you say, "I like it here in the mud. I can shiat in here and no one can tell."
 
2022-01-29 5:41:42 AM  

Wine Sipping Elitist: I'll admit that Elon got me. I'll probably sell the car before I'll ever see the feature I paid for. It's a nice, cool car but it ain't a FSD car.


I would not be disappointed to see the world's most perfect wonderful fully automated system downloaded to your vehicle and operating properly.

Unfortunately, I have paid attention to the various "social problems" that arise with new technologies, politics, legal mumbo jumbo, liability, and dirty tricks that have plagued new auto technologies. My take on all of this is that Tesla is walking through a minefield. A perfect system will get pulled out and stomped on if society is not prepared for it.

Other car manufacturers are just standing back and watching. Some on this site will insist that it signals that they are "stupid or something." My take is that they are just going to see what happens. Why not? Tesla shareholders can afford the lawsuits and the recalls. And the world will be better off for it. That is about the most positive thing I can say.

Some other people can wonder if it is ethical to make people into test subjects without full informed consent, or whether a few mowed down pedestrians are worth the scientific progress. Others can wonder if the NHTSA is really doing its job. Or maybe nobody wonders anymore.

Enjoy your car. This autopilot is a separate issue, I guess. This marketing model seems to allow opting out of features, I guess. I hope you deal with someone who keeps their promises.
 
2022-01-29 5:42:33 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-01-29 5:46:38 AM  
In case anyone actually was wondering, because our oil-soaked Boomer friend doesn't actually want to know, Autopilot and Full Self Driving are two different products.

The former is essentially an advanced drivers aid like Blue Cruise or whatever. Full Self Driving is a $12,000 upgrade to Autopilot that currently only has a handful of features out of beta. The mode in which the car drives itself (or attempts to) is in a locked beta. In order to access it, owners must be monitored for a week or 1,000 miles of driving, whichever comes first, and achieve a particular safety score based on Tesla's criteria. If accepted, the interior camera will watch you drive and all of the data your car collects can (and probably will) be sent to Tesla. Those found to be misusing the software are promptly booted from the beta.
 
2022-01-29 5:48:21 AM  

2fardownthread: ethical to make people into test subjects without full informed consent, or whether a few mowed down pedestrians are worth the scientific progress. Others can wonder if the NHTSA is really doing its job. Or maybe nobody wonders anymore.


Or, and I know this is a bit wild, you could do two minutes of Googling and actually know about this thing you have such strong feelings about. No? You want to opine without actually knowing. K.

That's what I thought.
 
2022-01-29 5:50:06 AM  

Likwit: 2fardownthread: ethical to make people into test subjects without full informed consent, or whether a few mowed down pedestrians are worth the scientific progress. Others can wonder if the NHTSA is really doing its job. Or maybe nobody wonders anymore.

Or, and I know this is a bit wild, you could do two minutes of Googling and actually know about this thing you have such strong feelings about. No? You want to opine without actually knowing. K.

That's what I thought.


Ok Elon, it's time to stop internetting.
 
2022-01-29 5:53:07 AM  
Oh it will happen. If not Tesla, someone else will do it.

Just remember that when Elon says next year, more often than not it will be 3 to 20 years.  He not good at realistic timelines.

Mark my words, people reading these words will live to see roads where humans are not allowed to drive.
 
2022-01-29 5:55:45 AM  

question_dj: Likwit: 2fardownthread: ethical to make people into test subjects without full informed consent, or whether a few mowed down pedestrians are worth the scientific progress. Others can wonder if the NHTSA is really doing its job. Or maybe nobody wonders anymore.

Or, and I know this is a bit wild, you could do two minutes of Googling and actually know about this thing you have such strong feelings about. No? You want to opine without actually knowing. K.

That's what I thought.

Ok Elon, it's time to stop internetting.


Yes. Telling a guy to google a thing. What a wild defense of 'valid criticism'
 
2022-01-29 6:09:23 AM  

Likwit: 2fardownthread: Yeah. That is what I thought.

Full-on self driving is a joke. Kind of my joke.

He has called it autonomous driving. He has called it FSD. He has called it Autopilot repeatedly.  He has said it would be feature complete by the end of 2020. He has claimed level 5 autonomy. He promised it by the end of 2017.  He predicted "complete autonomy" by 2018. There  have been 9 betas, and other versions apparently given to employees and others. Shall I call it a rose?

So you can claim someone is not knowledgeable, but what knowledge is there?

You seem to think whatever Elon Musk says is knowledge, and that changes daily. DAILY. So you go follow your guy and try to keep up with him. I will make jokes at how vague this genius is about something he does not take seriously.

My comments above are agnostic. I wish Elon the best because he is killing people who buy his products, and if nobody cares, well, nobody cares. I certainly can't stop them. If you want the killing to stop, write him a fan letter.

It's not just a lack of knowledge, it's the sheer confidence you have in your ignorance. You wallow in it like a pig in mud. And if someone says, "hey, maybe you should try a bathtub," you say, "I like it here in the mud. I can shiat in here and no one can tell."


Well. I guess that is one way of looking at it. You don't know me.

I have a lot of beefs about this guy who lies to his wife, lies to his kids, lies to the press, lies to his investors, his Twitter followers, his sycophants. He just keeps doing it. And nobody cares because he has made them all rich. I think I have that right. He even made the non-paedophile rich as far as I know. The cult grows. The NDAs proliferate. Is he lying now? First ask why he would stop.

That utter lack of character on his part, and the way he treats people and consistently misleads them emboldens me. His software has caused deaths. His work and the company he represents pose safety issues to more and more people every day. That all deserves scrutiny.

I am in no position to know something that might put him in prison. I admit it. But explaining why safety is important and why he deserves scrutiny and explaining that he has made false and misleading statements is what I can do.

Is that wallowing? Well, there is so much to wallow in, I guess. Elon Musk has made at least as many strong public statements against vaccination as almost all Senators. He has defied laws in operating his business just as much as In and Out burger's management wrt COVID restrictions. His company collects private information of its customers like Zuckerberg. For every bad hat vilified on this site, Musk has shown the same bad behavior to a greater or lesser degree. Dogecoin to the moon. 420 by 420. Joe Rogen. Supporting anti-Vax. Undermining Biden. He dissed California after accepting all those subsidies all those years. He is the Voltron of what is wrong with America.

Sorry. More wallowing? Well, that is text, not just a simple list. I guess a list would be enough for you. Somehow, I think it would be just as long.

OK. To wrap up, knowing ALL OF THAT, is it more helpful to think of FSD as being an honest bona fide attempt at improving the human condition without killing people, or to think of FSD as a future broken promise (FBP)?
 
2022-01-29 6:10:49 AM  

Likwit: "My personal guess is by the end of this year" is a promise in Elon-obsessed, oil-soaked Boomers' minds.


Fark user imageView Full Size


good to see you in the Musk white-knight vanguard again, fanboy.
 
2022-01-29 6:13:20 AM  

Likwit: 2fardownthread: ethical to make people into test subjects without full informed consent, or whether a few mowed down pedestrians are worth the scientific progress. Others can wonder if the NHTSA is really doing its job. Or maybe nobody wonders anymore.

Or, and I know this is a bit wild, you could do two minutes of Googling and actually know about this thing you have such strong feelings about. No? You want to opine without actually knowing. K.

That's what I thought.


I suppose you read all your EULAs. Do you expect people to believe that?

Do you believe that an autopilot program will not mow down pedestrians? Is that far-fetched?

The NHTSA has not even slapped Tesla on the hand. It is, at best, giving Tesla a scowl and a wink.

I so opine.
 
2022-01-29 6:37:03 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-01-29 6:37:51 AM  

Giant Clown Shoe: Likwit: "My personal guess is by the end of this year" is a promise in Elon-obsessed, oil-soaked Boomers' minds.

[Fark user image 828x874]

good to see you in the Musk white-knight vanguard again, fanboy.


You know. This. The world is pretty well divisible these days into anti-vax and reasonable people. Into Jan 6 seditionists, and normal people. And then into the Elon ... worshipers? and well, normal people.

It is not just age, but what irks me... wait... let's go back. It was about 2012 when Tesla gave a car to a NYTimes driver to test out, and he came back really ragging on the car. I went to bat hard for Tesla in the NYT comments. You know, this was a great idea. It deserves a chance. Give it a chance. Green this. Tesla that. And I stayed a Tesla fan until.... when? It was right when he needed to raise capital for the gigafactory. In a couple of months, he was pushing huge demands on Panasonic, reneging on a promise to consider TWO sites for gigafactories, letting his bond underwriters push his stock issues, and then dissing Toyota while falsely claiming he had future deals with Toyota. In just a couple of months he just started breaking rules and norms and alienating a lot of his supporters and early funders. He screwed over all of them.

He went on to lobby against high speed rail in California. Lobby against hybrids and hydrogen cars. Sucking up green subsidies while dissing other green technologies.

OK. My point. I did not start disliking Tesla and Musk until he revealed himself as deceptive and destructive. Then the company did it to its own shareholders (the US solar deal to bail out his family members) and then to customers.

It did not used to be like this. To younger people, maybe this seems "cool. Like Steve Jobs," but Steve Jobs never put drivers and pedestrians at risk. He did not do a lot of financial mumbo jumbo or jerk markets around. Jobs was apparently a dick, but he moved an industry and was a loner without being toxic, or breaking the law. Calling me an old guy is just saying that I know what I am talking about. I have seen it before, or NOT as the case may be.

I am not going to marry Elon Musk. If he and I have different ideas about revolutions and making billions, that is fine. But things have gone from soured deals with partners to really big things that affect world issues, industry issues, and the business ethics of generations. Musk and Tesla antics have gotten WORSE, not better. If Henry Ford had turned America into Nazis, that would have been bad. I think Musk and Tesla MIGHT be leading America down a bad road. And I am going to say so.
 
2022-01-29 6:45:45 AM  

TheMysteriousStranger: Oh it will happen. If not Tesla, someone else will do it.

Just remember that when Elon says next year, more often than not it will be 3 to 20 years.  He not good at realistic timelines.

Mark my words, people reading these words will live to see roads where humans are not allowed to drive.


The most realistic self driving system involves roadways that are communicating with your car- meaning some roads will be unavailable to you, as will taking a car "off road". Much like the "smart gun", Americans will have a field day with this, especially GQPers.


It's inevitable.
 
2022-01-29 6:55:22 AM  

2fardownthread: hydrogen cars


Because they make zero sense and have no future.
 
2022-01-29 6:57:36 AM  

2fardownthread: Likwit: 2fardownthread: ethical to make people into test subjects without full informed consent, or whether a few mowed down pedestrians are worth the scientific progress. Others can wonder if the NHTSA is really doing its job. Or maybe nobody wonders anymore.

Or, and I know this is a bit wild, you could do two minutes of Googling and actually know about this thing you have such strong feelings about. No? You want to opine without actually knowing. K.

That's what I thought.

I suppose you read all your EULAs. Do you expect people to believe that?

Do you believe that an autopilot program will not mow down pedestrians? Is that far-fetched?

The NHTSA has not even slapped Tesla on the hand. It is, at best, giving Tesla a scowl and a wink.

I so opine.


You could make your "opinions" better if you bothered to learn the difference between FSD and autopilot.
 
2022-01-29 6:58:57 AM  

TheMysteriousStranger: Oh it will happen. If not Tesla, someone else will do it.

Just remember that when Elon says next year, more often than not it will be 3 to 20 years.  He not good at realistic timelines.

Mark my words, people reading these words will live to see roads where humans are not allowed to drive.


You really might be right. In the way that we have flying cars today. Or the way we use nuclear bombs to dig tunnels and reservoirs. Or railroads. Humans barely drive on railroads as it is.

The thing is, it is not just the technology.

Getting the technology might be the easy part. But it might create a need for very nuanced judgment by drivers rather than simple rote memorization of movements and tasks.

We might never have autonomous driving or FSD or whatever it is called today. Maybe on highways and simple roads, but some places might be too complicated. Or it might be that the fine line between "driver error" and "system error" will forever be too blurred when accidents happen in downtown Manhattan. Assigning fault in an accident is something people do not trust Tesla to do. Whom are they going to trust? Police? Judges? Software engineers? A snoozing driver?

Or is no-fault insurance the answer? Someone gets killed by a software glitch? Eh? Cut the family a check and let's move on. Is that where we are headed? Maybe.

OK. Someone will attack me and call me vague. Whatever. I kind of care about this. But not that much. I am interested in seeing how it turns out. Half of me thinks that Tesla is really going about this the wrong way. The other half of me just shrugs and acknowledges that there might be no right way. We are going to have to break some eggs. And I will not be that egg.
 
2022-01-29 6:59:14 AM  

Giant Clown Shoe: Likwit: "My personal guess is by the end of this year" is a promise in Elon-obsessed, oil-soaked Boomers' minds.

[Fark user image image 828x874]

good to see you in the Musk white-knight vanguard again, fanboy.


Yes. Pointing out that a statement starting with "I believe that" doesn't constitute a promise is super fanboy white knight vanguard stuff.
 
2022-01-29 7:26:31 AM  

Likwit: question_dj: Likwit: 2fardownthread: ethical to make people into test subjects without full informed consent, or whether a few mowed down pedestrians are worth the scientific progress. Others can wonder if the NHTSA is really doing its job. Or maybe nobody wonders anymore.

Or, and I know this is a bit wild, you could do two minutes of Googling and actually know about this thing you have such strong feelings about. No? You want to opine without actually knowing. K.

That's what I thought.

Ok Elon, it's time to stop internetting.

Yes. Telling a guy to google a thing. What a wild defense of 'valid criticism'


Yes, it is.

Because if it were out there, you'd bring it to the argument with you.

But it doesn't. So you can't.
 
2022-01-29 7:28:57 AM  

Likwit: Giant Clown Shoe: Likwit: "My personal guess is by the end of this year" is a promise in Elon-obsessed, oil-soaked Boomers' minds.

[Fark user image image 828x874]

good to see you in the Musk white-knight vanguard again, fanboy.

Yes. Pointing out that a statement starting with "I believe that" doesn't constitute a promise is super fanboy white knight vanguard stuff.


When he does it nine years in a row?

He's either not nearly as intelligent as you think he is, or he's grifting.
 
2022-01-29 7:31:37 AM  

IlGreven: Likwit: Giant Clown Shoe: Likwit: "My personal guess is by the end of this year" is a promise in Elon-obsessed, oil-soaked Boomers' minds.

[Fark user image image 828x874]

good to see you in the Musk white-knight vanguard again, fanboy.

Yes. Pointing out that a statement starting with "I believe that" doesn't constitute a promise is super fanboy white knight vanguard stuff.

When he does it nine years in a row?

He's either not nearly as intelligent as you think he is, or he's grifting.


Why not both?
 
2022-01-29 7:35:11 AM  

IlGreven: Likwit: Giant Clown Shoe: Likwit: "My personal guess is by the end of this year" is a promise in Elon-obsessed, oil-soaked Boomers' minds.

[Fark user image image 828x874]

good to see you in the Musk white-knight vanguard again, fanboy.

Yes. Pointing out that a statement starting with "I believe that" doesn't constitute a promise is super fanboy white knight vanguard stuff.

When he does it nine years in a row?

He's either not nearly as intelligent as you think he is, or he's grifting.


I don't think he's a genius. He's just a CEO. They tend to be penises and he's no different. He's also a half-closeted antivaxxer, which is disappointing because I do like his company's products.

Again. Pointing out that "it is my personal belief that" isn't a promise doesn't in any way constitute a defense of Elon Musk. If you think it does, you're far more emotionally invested in the man than any of the "fanboys" and "white knights" you imagine are out there.
 
2022-01-29 7:38:02 AM  

IlGreven: Likwit: question_dj: Likwit: 2fardownthread: ethical to make people into test subjects without full informed consent, or whether a few mowed down pedestrians are worth the scientific progress. Others can wonder if the NHTSA is really doing its job. Or maybe nobody wonders anymore.

Or, and I know this is a bit wild, you could do two minutes of Googling and actually know about this thing you have such strong feelings about. No? You want to opine without actually knowing. K.

That's what I thought.

Ok Elon, it's time to stop internetting.

Yes. Telling a guy to google a thing. What a wild defense of 'valid criticism'

Yes, it is.

Because if it were out there, you'd bring it to the argument with you.

But it doesn't. So you can't.


I did, dummy. I had a whole post about it. RTF thread.
 
2022-01-29 8:09:00 AM  
He certainly has a history of optimistic promises that are not delivered on time.

But on the other hand, he also has a history of ultimately delivering them.
 
2022-01-29 8:12:02 AM  
So much in common with Elizabeth Holmes. It's just empty promise after empty promise with him, all to bring in investor money.
 
2022-01-29 8:35:33 AM  

Raider_dad: Old man yells at clouds .....

Not getting the push for self drive vehicles


I want one.
 
2022-01-29 8:39:45 AM  
frinkiac.comView Full Size
 
2022-01-29 8:54:17 AM  

TheMysteriousStranger: Oh it will happen. If not Tesla, someone else will do it.

Just remember that when Elon says next year, more often than not it will be 3 to 20 years.  He not good at realistic timelines.

Mark my words, people reading these words will live to see roads where humans are not allowed to drive.


we have those. they're called railroads.
 
2022-01-29 9:02:21 AM  

Raider_dad: Old man yells at clouds .....

Not getting the push for self drive vehicles


Elon has a vision of fleets of autonomous "taxis" eliminating the need for most people to own a vehicle.  Sort-of makes sense in the US were public transportation is almost non-existent.

/Not a sack of potatoes
//Old man who likes to drive
///Young wife also likes to drive.
 
2022-01-29 9:07:21 AM  

Russ1642: So much in common with Elizabeth Holmes. It's just empty promise after empty promise with him, all to bring in investor money.


Flim-flam man is a age old American profession.
 
2022-01-29 9:15:39 AM  

cleek: TheMysteriousStranger: Oh it will happen. If not Tesla, someone else will do it.

Just remember that when Elon says next year, more often than not it will be 3 to 20 years.  He not good at realistic timelines.

Mark my words, people reading these words will live to see roads where humans are not allowed to drive.

we have those. they're called railroads.


You're not my supervisor!

If I'm understanding everything correctly, my two choices for driving are.

1)  Keeping my hands on the wheel, my foot on the appropriate pedal, my eyes on the rode, and my concentration on the task.

or

2)  Keeping my hands at ready on the wheel to take control if necessary, my foot near the appropriate pedal to use it at a moments notice, my eyes on the rode to keep track of any unexpected obstacles, and my concentration on the road to make sure that the computer is making all of the right decisions.

I don't quite see an upside.  Especially since I am highly confident that many humans will jump straight to option 2, and then do none of the requirements to safely arrive at their destination every time.  Sure the first 20 times in the car they will be all about the caution and care.  But by the 100th time?  It's kicking back in the seat, taking a nap, texting, surfing the web, not doing anything they are supposed to do.
 
2022-01-29 9:28:18 AM  

TheMysteriousStranger: Oh it will happen. If not Tesla, someone else will do it.

Just remember that when Elon says next year, more often than not it will be 3 to 20 years.  He not good at realistic timelines.

Mark my words, people reading these words will live to see roads where humans are not allowed to drive.


Why?  Humans have to be able to take over immediately in case of of emergency...so why the fark are governments (or insurance companies like Fark seems to be in love with for this case alone) going to turn around and say that humans can't be the primary controller?  What, they trust them to immediately react to avoid a crash but not drive defensively to prevent one in the first place?
 
2022-01-29 9:37:49 AM  

2fardownthread: Wine Sipping Elitist: I'll admit that Elon got me. I'll probably sell the car before I'll ever see the feature I paid for. It's a nice, cool car but it ain't a FSD car.

I would not be disappointed to see the world's most perfect wonderful fully automated system downloaded to your vehicle and operating properly.

Unfortunately, I have paid attention to the various "social problems" that arise with new technologies, politics, legal mumbo jumbo, liability, and dirty tricks that have plagued new auto technologies. My take on all of this is that Tesla is walking through a minefield. A perfect system will get pulled out and stomped on if society is not prepared for it.

Other car manufacturers are just standing back and watching. Some on this site will insist that it signals that they are "stupid or something." My take is that they are just going to see what happens. Why not? Tesla shareholders can afford the lawsuits and the recalls. And the world will be better off for it. That is about the most positive thing I can say.

Some other people can wonder if it is ethical to make people into test subjects without full informed consent, or whether a few mowed down pedestrians are worth the scientific progress. Others can wonder if the NHTSA is really doing its job. Or maybe nobody wonders anymore.

Enjoy your car. This autopilot is a separate issue, I guess. This marketing model seems to allow opting out of features, I guess. I hope you deal with someone who keeps their promises.


I agree 100%. First, developing a truly level 5 or whatever FSD car would be much easier if humans were not on the road at the same time, and if we ever achieve full FSD everywhere no human drivers on the road will probably be the case but for now Tesla is solving problem it won't have if it success.

Second, the laws are not designed to handle full FSD cars, so Tesla has the added burden of lobbying while at the same time the oil execs and traditional automakers are sandbagging the effort so their own reasons. Trailblazing is hard work.

Lastly, trailblazers usually have egos the size of aircraft carriers. Great men are rarely good men.Sometimes it is only by the sheer force of their will that anything gets down, and sometimes they outlive their usefulness to their creation, ie McAfee.

Thanks and I do enjoy the car and the enhanced auto-pilot. It truly is a lifesaver and a valid insurance policy. However, I'm not deluding myself on the FSD I paid for and have not received, and being judged if I'm a good enough driver to test it out via their beta test program? For something I paid for? Fark that noise.
 
2022-01-29 9:51:14 AM  

Wine Sipping Elitist: I'll admit that Elon got me. I'll probably sell the car before I'll ever see the feature I paid for. It's a nice, cool car but it ain't a FSD car.


You paid for something that doesn't exist?

Hmmmmm....I've got some NFT's you might be interested in.
 
2022-01-29 9:56:15 AM  

TheMysteriousStranger: Oh it will happen. If not Tesla, someone else will do it.

Just remember that when Elon says next year, more often than not it will be 3 to 20 years.  He not good at realistic timelines.

Mark my words, people reading these words will live to see roads where humans are not allowed to drive.


Roads?  I think lanes, like HOV lanes.
 
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