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(NPR)   More and more companies are doing their best to promote "exposure" as an acceptable form of currency for skilled and creative labor, but for some strange reason other people, like landlords, retailers, and credit card companies, won't ever accept it   (npr.org) divider line
    More: Obvious, If You Have to Ask, Employment, Juleyka Lantigua-Williams, The Opportunity, common workplace issue of people of color, important pairing, Lantigua-Williams, race pay disparity  
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3044 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jan 2022 at 9:27 AM (17 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-01-28 8:44:36 AM  
If you're big enough to give me enough exposure to be worth it, you're big enough to pay me.  Contrary-wise if you aren't big enough to pay me, you aren't going to give me very much exposure.
 
2022-01-28 8:53:13 AM  
It doesn't help that there are, literally, an endless supply of low-tier talent in areas like writing, editing, voiceover, etc., who continue to ensure the propagation of this bullshiat by accepting it when it's offered. And then, after successfully devaluing their own work to the point where has no actual value, they wonder why they're not earning enough to make ends meet. Sites like Fiverr are equal conspirators in this race to the bottom, where the idea of talent having value has no meaning to people seeking services that should cost them far, far more at even a basic level. See also, "Uber drivers."
 
2022-01-28 9:00:04 AM  
"We'd love to work with you but we don't have a budget..."

"Well, that's too bad. Best of luck with your business plan."

I pass on these requests all the time. I have clear rates for what I charge for voicework and such. If they want a professional, they need to pay for one. And for all the people who say I lose business that way, all I've lost is nothing.
 
2022-01-28 9:29:28 AM  
s3.amazonaws.comView Full Size

/ oblig
 
2022-01-28 9:29:31 AM  
Oh sure, but when I offer to expose myself instead of paying a bill, suddenly I'm a pervert.
 
2022-01-28 9:31:33 AM  

PirateKing: Oh sure, but when I offer to expose myself instead of paying a bill, suddenly I'm a pervert.


This is not a just-the-tipping thread.
 
2022-01-28 9:32:51 AM  
"We're not going to pay you in cash, we're going to pay you in exposure"
"Is that right? Well here's exposure to my big hairy ass. See ya!"
 
2022-01-28 9:33:51 AM  
When someone asks you to work for "exposure," what is really happening is that person is hoping someone else will pay for the work you will be doing.
 
2022-01-28 9:35:40 AM  
oblig:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-01-28 9:35:57 AM  
I've seen this a lot in medicine, people working at prestigious hospitals for less pay.  So, you get less pay, longer hours, and a more expensive place to live.  Totally makes sense.
 
2022-01-28 9:36:26 AM  
oblig

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-01-28 9:36:53 AM  
"Here are some phrases she uses in her email replies:
* What do you usually pay people for this?
* My usual rate for this is [insert fee].
* When I did something similar at [insert event], I was paid [insert fee]."


"what do you usually pay people for this?"  Yeah, no. Don't lead with that, and probably don't say that at all. Not if you want to have a shot at getting paid appropriately.
 
2022-01-28 9:37:06 AM  
everything old is new again, again
 
2022-01-28 9:41:09 AM  
Mike Monteiro: F*ck You, Pay Me
Youtube jVkLVRt6c1U


You cannot live off of exposure, but you can die from exposure.
 
2022-01-28 9:42:43 AM  

New Rising Sun: "what do you usually pay people for this?"  Yeah, no. Don't lead with that, and probably don't say that at all


Agree 100%. I have a clear rate sheet for my various creative gigs. The prices are negotiable, but only in exchange for something *I* see as valuable (such as accommodations, food, liquor, etc.). I avoid a lot of unserious offers by being clear up front and not ever defending my rates. Never feel like you need to justify your worth to someone else.
 
2022-01-28 9:44:17 AM  
The appropriate response should always be "I'm sorry, I just don't think this project is for me. Good luck."
 
2022-01-28 9:44:40 AM  
Lots of people have screenplay ideas. I do as well, but I write mine.

If you want me to stop working on my screenplays and write yours, it will cost you.

The capper is "how much fun" it is for them to watch me work, micromanage the drafts, and get free lessons on narrative structure, production and planning and so on, because they think I'm having as much fun as they are, and why should I charge for all this "fun"?
 
2022-01-28 9:45:22 AM  
I was given a reporting task at work around 2009-ish that promised exposure.  I didn't care at all about the exposure but was happy to take on the project.  But the exposure did net a huge job and salary advancement, I was aggressively recruited out of a mass of entry level workers to Peter Principle my way into an engineering gig. They saved me in the nick of time because the entry-level department was starting to lock down processes and scheduling into nightmarish numbers-style micromanagement.

A lot of career-focused employees love exposure...when I'd complain that the reporting project was getting tedious, coworkers would tell me oh but it's great exposure.
 
2022-01-28 9:46:19 AM  

stuhayes2010: I've seen this a lot in medicine, people working at prestigious hospitals for less pay.  So, you get less pay, longer hours, and a more expensive place to live.  Totally makes sense.


Exposure is when people want to take your efforts for ZERO pay.
It would be like not paying a surgeon anything for a complex surgery, just the supposed glory of doing it at Johns Hopkins.
 
2022-01-28 9:46:50 AM  
I remember this as far back as when they were making the Star Wars Prequel films.  If you aren't aware of how the FX for a lightsaber is done, in very simple terms, it's "rotoscoping", which can simply be described as tracing the blade, frame by frame.  At 30 frame per second, that gets to be a lot of frames.  It's tedious, time consuming work.  It's also not very difficult other than the time and patience.

So LucasFilm hired hundreds of people that pretty much did nothing but rotoscope all day long. And they worked them 14 hours a day, and paid them almost nothing.  The reason, of course, is that you can put LucasFilm on your resume now.

I always thought that was a shiatty way to treat people. It's a little depressing to see that it's still going on today.  Probably even worse than before.

But I kinda understand what is happening.  There are a gazillion people out there competing for those jobs.
 
2022-01-28 9:47:54 AM  
I find it hilarious when I approach a venue owner about booking my band, then they recoil in disgust when I mention getting paid.
 
2022-01-28 9:50:38 AM  

Pocket Ninja: It doesn't help that there are, literally, an endless supply of low-tier talent in areas like writing, editing, voiceover, etc., who continue to ensure the propagation of this bullshiat by accepting it when it's offered. And then, after successfully devaluing their own work to the point where has no actual value, they wonder why they're not earning enough to make ends meet. Sites like Fiverr are equal conspirators in this race to the bottom, where the idea of talent having value has no meaning to people seeking services that should cost them far, far more at even a basic level. See also, "Uber drivers."


A very big difference though, is that your average person could Uber you from Point A to Point B, a the quality of the drive would be about the same. Can't say that there's no quality difference between an amateur photographer and a professional.
 
2022-01-28 9:51:11 AM  
And the flip side to "exposure" - bad contracts.
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
hej
2022-01-28 9:51:34 AM  
"More and more" ?  This is a time honored tradition for cheapskates and grifters that goes back decades.
 
2022-01-28 9:52:04 AM  

beezeltown: I find it hilarious when I approach a venue owner about booking my band, then they recoil in disgust when I mention getting paid.


Slight difference here.  This is more like the venue coming to you, but then not wanting to pay you for what they're asking you to do.

If you approach them, they have a bit of an upper hand as you're asking them to help you.

Also worth mentioning are various 'contests' where companies can get 10+ people doing the work, and then can pay the 'winner' less than they'd have paid them if hired directly.
 
2022-01-28 9:54:41 AM  
When you get paid in exposure
Youtube DOfKWlAjJec
 
2022-01-28 9:55:08 AM  

Priest_to_the_Exanimate: When someone asks you to work for "exposure," what is really happening is that person is hoping someone else will pay for the work you will be doing.


I got involved with an ISE (Informal Science Education) startup where the most vocal leaders had the idea to use a twist on this.  For unpaid labor, use students from the local unis.  Their idea was to charge a premium for STEM tutoring and use students whose profs required "community outreach/service" as the tutors.  In their business plan, that was the principal income stream.

I was skeptical from the moment they presented their "plan".  Unsurprisingly, it was a short-lived venture.
 
2022-01-28 9:55:16 AM  

hej: "More and more" ?  This is a time honored tradition for cheapskates and grifters that goes back decades.


Centuries.
Remember, the reason Inigo Montoya was hunting the 6 fingered man is he commissioned a sword, refused to pay, then killed the father.
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-01-28 9:59:53 AM  
My gf and I own a video production company and have done a lot of work on films and commercials. I see it from both sides. The world of major film especially is largely a closed ecosystem, that will use a Shia Labeouf over and again rather than use somebody with talent. On the other hand, there are a LOT of bad actors out there. And the good unknown ones that you might find are just as likely to go apewire with some unforeseen insanity halfway through production as they are to show up prepared and do a solid job. We got into it with a writer who was late and demanded the 11 pages he owed us. He sent us 11 pages of Fark You. Every few lines there was a triple space, an artifact of copy paste. We cited that as proof he didn't really write all of it and refused to pay him.  The world of creatives is full of nuts.
 
2022-01-28 10:00:09 AM  

Oneiros: beezeltown: I find it hilarious when I approach a venue owner about booking my band, then they recoil in disgust when I mention getting paid.

Slight difference here.  This is more like the venue coming to you, but then not wanting to pay you for what they're asking you to do.

If you approach them, they have a bit of an upper hand as you're asking them to help you.

Also worth mentioning are various 'contests' where companies can get 10+ people doing the work, and then can pay the 'winner' less than they'd have paid them if hired directly.


Same thing happens when "opportunities" are advertised for bands. A local festival organizers was looking for bands, posting on local FB groups. I responded and the organizer said they expected 25,000 people, but they couldn't pay the bands. It would be excellent exposure, though. I can't reconcile an event with a budget over $100,000 not able to chuck over maybe $1000 to be split between a few bands providing music throughout the day.
 
2022-01-28 10:00:48 AM  
Literally this morning...
Told a candidate that we would not interview them for the Sales & Marketing manager position that they wanted because they did not have the managerial experience.
However, we would create a position for him as a salesperson and marketing manager. He could have the marketing and learn the business through his position on the sales desk.
He's a 2015 college grad with an AA.
He's substitute taught, event planned for a health-food pyramid scheme and a repertory theater and did the marketing for a failed "start-up" in our business for two years.
He wanted $105k.
We would have truly offered him the EXPOSURE he needed on his CV in order to parlay that into whatever he wanted later or to move up the ladder here.
But he had to have $105.
I don't get it. Why do people early in their careers all think they have to be overcompensated before proving their worth instead of the other way around?

/get off my lawn!
 
2022-01-28 10:04:57 AM  
On the one hand, I understand that working just for "exposure" can be a losing proposition, but sometimes non-monetary compensation is worth the time.

Look at photography - sometimes the photographer pays the model, sometimes the model pays the photographer, and sometimes it's just an even "time for prints" swap.  I've done all three, but I guess the key point is that if I'm not getting paid, the project had better be something that will either build my skills or enhance my portfolio, so that's not really the same as just working for "exposure."
 
hej
2022-01-28 10:05:47 AM  

Private_Citizen: hej: "More and more" ?  This is a time honored tradition for cheapskates and grifters that goes back decades.

Centuries.
Remember, the reason Inigo Montoya was hunting the 6 fingered man is he commissioned a sword, refused to pay, then killed the father.
[Fark user image 850x586]


I'm confident it's been a custom for as long as influence and uneven power dynamics have existed, but most of the areas I know of where it's applied the most these days haven't been around since the beginning of time.
 
2022-01-28 10:06:31 AM  

monstera: Literally this morning...
Told a candidate that we would not interview them for the Sales & Marketing manager position that they wanted because they did not have the managerial experience.
However, we would create a position for him as a salesperson and marketing manager. He could have the marketing and learn the business through his position on the sales desk.
He's a 2015 college grad with an AA.
He's substitute taught, event planned for a health-food pyramid scheme and a repertory theater and did the marketing for a failed "start-up" in our business for two years.
He wanted $105k.
We would have truly offered him the EXPOSURE he needed on his CV in order to parlay that into whatever he wanted later or to move up the ladder here.
But he had to have $105.
I don't get it. Why do people early in their careers all think they have to be overcompensated before proving their worth instead of the other way around?

/get off my lawn!


You wouldn't interview him for a Sales & Marketing Manager position, but would create the position of salesperson and marketing manager...

What the f*ck kind of bullshiat is this?

If I were him I'd have asked for 300K because your organization is clearly pants on head stupid.
 
2022-01-28 10:07:53 AM  
It's all true. All of it. I used to make comic books, but I quit about a decade ago for a vast array of reasons. But towards the end, more and more people would approach me to hire me, and when I brought up my page rates I would be met with, no, you can do it for the exposure... I suddenly felt very punchy when people would say that.
 
2022-01-28 10:09:18 AM  

Fireproof: Pocket Ninja: It doesn't help that there are, literally, an endless supply of low-tier talent in areas like writing, editing, voiceover, etc., who continue to ensure the propagation of this bullshiat by accepting it when it's offered. And then, after successfully devaluing their own work to the point where has no actual value, they wonder why they're not earning enough to make ends meet. Sites like Fiverr are equal conspirators in this race to the bottom, where the idea of talent having value has no meaning to people seeking services that should cost them far, far more at even a basic level. See also, "Uber drivers."

A very big difference though, is that your average person could Uber you from Point A to Point B, a the quality of the drive would be about the same. Can't say that there's no quality difference between an amateur photographer and a professional.


I don't know. Some Uber drivers really do go the extra mile and provide concierge-level services and amenities as part of the ride. It's not par for the course, but it happens. I'd consider that a sort of professional-grade service. I feel that stuff like that does stand in stark contrast with the run-of-the-mill driver.

To the customer, they work for Uber so its all the same and nebulous. To the driver, they work for themselves. And there's a pretty big disconnect with those perceptions.
 
2022-01-28 10:09:47 AM  

monstera: Why do people early in their careers all think they have to be overcompensated before proving their worth instead of the other way around?


Depends who you ask.  I'd venture that Farxists don't recognize the concept of worth as a distinction.
 
2022-01-28 10:10:24 AM  
That's how Trump pays his lawyers.
 
2022-01-28 10:10:37 AM  

New Rising Sun: "Here are some phrases she uses in her email replies:
* What do you usually pay people for this?
* My usual rate for this is [insert fee].
* When I did something similar at [insert event], I was paid [insert fee]."

"what do you usually pay people for this?"  Yeah, no. Don't lead with that, and probably don't say that at all. Not if you want to have a shot at getting paid appropriately.


It's a valid question, but it's also one that you ask when you are willing to turn down a project. Maybe change it to "What have you paid people for this in the past?" just to set a baseline. And if it's something new for the employer, ask "What is the return you expect on this investment?"

No employer has ever paid more than they expect to earn from an employee.
 
2022-01-28 10:13:04 AM  
After getting paid in exposure:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-01-28 10:14:13 AM  
Kitty2.0:

He was offered the sales position.
He asked for the managerial position.
He has some marketing experience, very little and arguably failed sales experience in our business, and apparently no managerial experience.
He was offered a unique position in a company that is literally the top of the heap in our little corner of the world.
Maybe you won't understand since you didn't give me any specific objections but we left the conversation on good terms and I hope to see him succeed.

/unrealistic expectations 🙄
 
2022-01-28 10:16:59 AM  
In related news, Billie Eillish is getting justifiably dragged for a recent spec work/for exposure art contest.

https://twitter.com/billieeilish/status/1486388807528173573
 
2022-01-28 10:17:48 AM  
I have a nephew in a local band. They get paid for their gigs and they have toured. I have a deal with him; if I get approached by someone wanting a band for "exposure", I will pay them a fair price...to be a shiatty band. There's a $500 bonus if one of them farts into a microphone.
 
2022-01-28 10:17:49 AM  
I'm an indie game developer and end up hiring from Fiverr. That works great for programming tasks that can be documented well. It's less successful with contracting 3D artwork because that involves a lot of engine specific knowledge to get things right.

Can someone explain the correct way to hire creative services? I have a mildly successful VR game that I need character design and world building for. I have a small budget for the game.
 
2022-01-28 10:19:04 AM  
I'd never even heard of this.  Then again, I work in manufacturing where this is not a thing.  It would be a preposterous idea.
 
2022-01-28 10:20:09 AM  

monstera: Kitty2.0:

He was offered the sales position.
He asked for the managerial position.
He has some marketing experience, very little and arguably failed sales experience in our business, and apparently no managerial experience.
He was offered a unique position in a company that is literally the top of the heap in our little corner of the world.
Maybe you won't understand since you didn't give me any specific objections but we left the conversation on good terms and I hope to see him succeed.

/unrealistic expectations 🙄


That is a much better explanation than your original word salad.

I've worked for companies who "create positions" for people...those positions are also the first to be cut when management decides someone is just chewing scenery.

In my opinion, he dodged a bullet.
 
2022-01-28 10:22:34 AM  
imgc.allpostersimages.comView Full Size
 
2022-01-28 10:23:27 AM  

Winterlight: "We'd love to work with you but we don't have a budget..."

"Well, that's too bad. Best of luck with your business plan."

I pass on these requests all the time. I have clear rates for what I charge for voicework and such. If they want a professional, they need to pay for one. And for all the people who say I lose business that way, all I've lost is nothing.


Actually, you've gained.  If you took the gig, you would have expended resources for nothing.  Now, you still have those resources to put into something actually worthwhile.
 
2022-01-28 10:23:30 AM  
My daughter fell for that. An 'influencer' got her to do some artwork for free with the promise of a plug on her channel. She did the artwork, she got the plug, and other than several compliments earned exactly zero.
 
2022-01-28 10:26:44 AM  

durbnpoisn: I remember this as far back as when they were making the Star Wars Prequel films.  If you aren't aware of how the FX for a lightsaber is done, in very simple terms, it's "rotoscoping", which can simply be described as tracing the blade, frame by frame.  At 30 frame per second, that gets to be a lot of frames.  It's tedious, time consuming work.  It's also not very difficult other than the time and patience.

So LucasFilm hired hundreds of people that pretty much did nothing but rotoscope all day long. And they worked them 14 hours a day, and paid them almost nothing.  The reason, of course, is that you can put LucasFilm on your resume now.

I always thought that was a shiatty way to treat people. It's a little depressing to see that it's still going on today.  Probably even worse than before.

But I kinda understand what is happening.  There are a gazillion people out there competing for those jobs.


Turns out that many high-end autistics are ideal for such work.  They aren't bothered by the repetition, they are very aware of the smallest errors, and they don't need a lot of supervision.  However, being autistic, they're easy to exploit, so someone needs to do the bargaining for them.
 
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