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(Defense News)   Littoral combat ship tests new power-saving measures, promises to continue its fight against little men in boats   (defensenews.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, United States Navy, Navy spokesman, four-year-old LCS, Little Rock, combining gear class issue, Naval Station Mayport, Littoral combat ship, combining gear failure  
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839 clicks; posted to STEM » on 28 Jan 2022 at 5:05 AM (15 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



20 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2022-01-28 5:52:27 AM  
It pulled into a drydock?
 
2022-01-28 7:04:23 AM  
Assumed to be unsinkable, as most men struggle to find the Littoris
 
2022-01-28 7:22:06 AM  
Well that's kinda why you have sea trials in the first place
 
2022-01-28 7:34:07 AM  
They need to scrap that whole class, and design new ones from scratch.

But that's just the start.  The entire surface navy needs to sit down and remember that their core mission is to kill people, and to break things while avoiding killing your own people and breaking your own things to the extent possible.

Anything other than training that supports that is a very secondary, or even tertiary and if necessary needs to be dropped in favor of things like proper watchkeeping and doing the required maintenance both underway and in port.
 
2022-01-28 8:05:08 AM  
More and more this thing seems like a Figurative Combat Ship
 
2022-01-28 8:08:03 AM  
"The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to fark up the pipes." - CDR Montgomery Scott

So the LCS ships are STILL having trouble with the stupidly-complicated combined drive systems? Quelle surprise.

For those unfamiliar with these floating deathtraps, they have both a gas-turbine engine and a regular marine diesel engine. This in itself is not necessarily a bad thing- the ships could cruise on diesel power for fuel economy, then switch to gas turbine engines for short bursts of speed. Unfortunately, some idiot decided the LCS had to be able to use both propulsion plants at the same time. Gas turbine engines rotate much faster than diesel engines, so the ships have a super-complicated reduction gearing system to allow power input from plants rotating at different speeds- all of which has to be meshed smoothly into a single, further-reduced, rotational speed for the drive screws.

For the ten minutes or so per year this kludged-together abomination is functional, it does provide a minor increase in the LCS' operational sped. But the reduction gear system cannot be maintained by the sailors aboard the ship. The crews on these vessels are too small to support even regular maintenance, but the crews are not allowed to muck about with the reduction gears- even if they did have the personnel to manage it. All maintenance is performed in port, by contractors. As far as the sailors aboard are concerned, those gearing systems might as well be magic boxes with two shafts rotating at different speeds going in, and a larger shaft rotating at a different- and slower- speed going out.

So the LCS has a stupidly-complicated final drive system, which ship's force is not allowed or equipped to maintain, and Navy brass are surprised the bloody things almost never operate properly?

The LCS program has been a bigger boondoggle than the F-35, which is quite an achievement. They're not equipped with air or submarine defenses, lightly armed, unarmored, equipped with a combined drive system which expires whenever someone looks at it, and the farking things can't cross an ocean. The max operational range for the LCS is about 700 kilometers. The "modular and hot-swappable" weapon/sensor packages the LCS was designed to accept were never developed. They are worse than useless- taking an LCS into combat close ashore (the "littoral combat environment" they were supposedly designed for) is the naval warfare equivalent of tying a goat to a tree as bait for a tiger.

Find the ass-hats who sold these worthless targets to the Navy and have them keel-hauled. Then, have the admirals who bought into the idea publicly flogged.
 
2022-01-28 8:45:27 AM  

dittybopper: They need to scrap that whole class, and design new ones from scratch.

But that's just the start.  The entire surface navy needs to sit down and remember that their core mission is to kill people, and to break things while avoiding killing your own people and breaking your own things to the extent possible.

Anything other than training that supports that is a very secondary, or even tertiary and if necessary needs to be dropped in favor of things like proper watchkeeping and doing the required maintenance both underway and in port.


They've started

The LCS was doomed almost from the start by good intentions.   Combining a new acquisition process, bastardized "Streetfighter" concept,  minimal manning initiatives, new logistics and employment concepts and trying to make the ship all things for all people drove an insane requirements process.  Christ, arguably  the most important module (mine warfare) still isn't ready for deployment.
But, the Navy restarted the uber successful Arleigh Burke line of ships, so that was good.

/sometimes quantity is a quality all its own, but not in the LCS case
 
2022-01-28 9:12:45 AM  

dittybopper: They need to scrap that whole class, and design new ones from scratch.

But that's just the start.  The entire surface navy needs to sit down and remember that their core mission is to kill people, and to break things while avoiding killing your own people and breaking your own things to the extent possible.

Anything other than training that supports that is a very secondary, or even tertiary and if necessary needs to be dropped in favor of things like proper watchkeeping and doing the required maintenance both underway and in port.


As a former squid, I cannot say loudly enough how wrong you are about the US Navy's mission.  The US Navy's mission has been, since the Navy was created by Congress, to keep the sea lanes free and open.  Period.
 
2022-01-28 9:17:19 AM  

makerofbadjokes: Assumed to be unsinkable, as most men struggle to find the Littoris


Mike found it
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-01-28 9:19:52 AM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: dittybopper: They need to scrap that whole class, and design new ones from scratch.

But that's just the start.  The entire surface navy needs to sit down and remember that their core mission is to kill people, and to break things while avoiding killing your own people and breaking your own things to the extent possible.

Anything other than training that supports that is a very secondary, or even tertiary and if necessary needs to be dropped in favor of things like proper watchkeeping and doing the required maintenance both underway and in port.

As a former squid, I cannot say loudly enough how wrong you are about the US Navy's mission.  The US Navy's mission has been, since the Navy was created by Congress, to keep the sea lanes free and open.  Period.


Sort of, the Navy provides combat ready Naval Forces to win conflicts and also provide security and deterrence through a forward deployed presence.
 
2022-01-28 9:26:26 AM  

Wenchmaster: "The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to fark up the pipes." - CDR Montgomery Scott

So the LCS ships are STILL having trouble with the stupidly-complicated combined drive systems? Quelle surprise.

For those unfamiliar with these floating deathtraps, they have both a gas-turbine engine and a regular marine diesel engine. This in itself is not necessarily a bad thing- the ships could cruise on diesel power for fuel economy, then switch to gas turbine engines for short bursts of speed. Unfortunately, some idiot decided the LCS had to be able to use both propulsion plants at the same time. Gas turbine engines rotate much faster than diesel engines, so the ships have a super-complicated reduction gearing system to allow power input from plants rotating at different speeds- all of which has to be meshed smoothly into a single, further-reduced, rotational speed for the drive screws.

For the ten minutes or so per year this kludged-together abomination is functional, it does provide a minor increase in the LCS' operational sped. But the reduction gear system cannot be maintained by the sailors aboard the ship. The crews on these vessels are too small to support even regular maintenance, but the crews are not allowed to muck about with the reduction gears- even if they did have the personnel to manage it. All maintenance is performed in port, by contractors. As far as the sailors aboard are concerned, those gearing systems might as well be magic boxes with two shafts rotating at different speeds going in, and a larger shaft rotating at a different- and slower- speed going out.

So the LCS has a stupidly-complicated final drive system, which ship's force is not allowed or equipped to maintain, and Navy brass are surprised the bloody things almost never operate properly?

The LCS program has been a bigger boondoggle than the F-35, which is quite an achievement. They're not equipped with air or submarine defenses, lightly armed, unarmored, equipped with a combi ...


Could they just use Gen sets and power electric motors?
 
2022-01-28 9:56:34 AM  

Merltech: Could they just use Gen sets and power electric motors?


Came to say this: electric propulsion has been done before and is coming back in the Columbia-class submarines.

Maybe it should have been done in these ships, as all-electric ships? Electric motors driving propellors and then the Diesel engines are gensets that power the electric drive motors. Same for the gas turbines: fire them up when necessary and they are also used to power the electric drive motors.
 
2022-01-28 10:13:18 AM  

mrmopar5287: Merltech: Could they just use Gen sets and power electric motors?

Came to say this: electric propulsion has been done before and is coming back in the Columbia-class submarines.

Maybe it should have been done in these ships, as all-electric ships? Electric motors driving propellors and then the Diesel engines are gensets that power the electric drive motors. Same for the gas turbines: fire them up when necessary and they are also used to power the electric drive motors.


Unless the reason is for contractors to make money off the parts.
 
2022-01-28 10:17:44 AM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: dittybopper: They need to scrap that whole class, and design new ones from scratch.

But that's just the start.  The entire surface navy needs to sit down and remember that their core mission is to kill people, and to break things while avoiding killing your own people and breaking your own things to the extent possible.

Anything other than training that supports that is a very secondary, or even tertiary and if necessary needs to be dropped in favor of things like proper watchkeeping and doing the required maintenance both underway and in port.

As a former squid, I cannot say loudly enough how wrong you are about the US Navy's mission.  The US Navy's mission has been, since the Navy was created by Congress, to keep the sea lanes free and open.  Period.


That mission has been supplanted a long time ago. The Navy's primary mission those days is making money for a select group of companies. The secondary missions is killing or threatening to kill people who interfere with making money. Then drug interdiction. The sea lane thing is still there, on page 2 I think.

Unless you can explain how bombing landlocked countries like Afghanistan keeps the sea lanes free.
 
2022-01-28 10:22:24 AM  
I guess if you don't take things littorally you'll run in to these kinds of problems.
 
2022-01-28 10:26:56 AM  

Merltech: Could they just use Gen sets and power electric motors?


IIRC, that was one of the original design proposals. Since it would save weight, reduce maintenance, and improve performance, the idea was dropped and replaced with the kludged-up crap currently sort-of-powering LCS.

It wouldn't have addressed the class design's other manifold weaknesses, but that original plan might have made the ships slightly less stupid.
 
2022-01-28 12:17:43 PM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: dittybopper: They need to scrap that whole class, and design new ones from scratch.

But that's just the start.  The entire surface navy needs to sit down and remember that their core mission is to kill people, and to break things while avoiding killing your own people and breaking your own things to the extent possible.

Anything other than training that supports that is a very secondary, or even tertiary and if necessary needs to be dropped in favor of things like proper watchkeeping and doing the required maintenance both underway and in port.

As a former squid, I cannot say loudly enough how wrong you are about the US Navy's mission.  The US Navy's mission has been, since the Navy was created by Congress, to keep the sea lanes free and open.  Period.


This is why the US military and Air Force can no longer win wars.
 
2022-01-28 1:17:46 PM  
I was told it was highly unlikely most sailors could find the littorus.
 
2022-01-28 1:48:21 PM  
Just to be clear, these power issues seem to be endemic to the Freedom class LCS, not the Independence class LCS, right?  Haven't heard of any of the ones stationed on our coast breaking down like this.
 
2022-01-28 1:58:29 PM  
Littoral stimulation
 
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