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(BNNBloomberg)   The US housing market gained almost $10 trillion during the pandemic and is now roughly twice what it was 10 years ago. In an unrelated story, subby's going long on tulip and Beanie Babby NFTs backed by his own personal crypto   (bnnbloomberg.ca) divider line
    More: Obvious, New York City, value of the U.S. housing stock, Strong demand, Metropolitan area, biggest percentage gains, last year, aggregate value of homes, Supply and demand  
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302 clicks; posted to Business » on 27 Jan 2022 at 9:35 PM (17 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-01-27 6:57:28 PM  
On the upside you can live in a house, on the down they cost too damn much
 
2022-01-27 7:43:34 PM  
That is a shocking number. Is it really providing twice the service it did 10 years ago? Is there twice the convenience? Twice the floor space?

Another consideration is where the value accreted and where it vanished. Lower price properties, let's say, halved. Higher price properties quadrupled, emphasizing location and making the high price problem so much worse in areas that were already having price problems.

Yet another consideration is the value of infrastructure. Has it doubled? No. So we have rapidly depreciating infrastructure supporting rapidly appreciating residences and property. What policy makers SHOULD do is tax those property owners to improve infrastructure and increase the value for everyone. But that ain't going to happen. It should happen immediately. Now is the time. This is the chance. This might "lock in" the service value of expensive properties.

So how does it end?
 
2022-01-27 9:30:49 PM  

2fardownthread: So how does it end?


Search your heart, you know how it ends.
 
2022-01-27 9:56:24 PM  
We've been in our house for two years, paid $425k for it.  In the past three months I've gotten letters from real estate agents claiming they can get $500k, $550k, and the latest $630k.  When it went on the market three and a half years ago, it listed at $545k, dropped five times, went into escrow, dropped out, dropped the price again and we bought it.  So, I'm inclined to say the numbers in the article are rather puffed up.
 
2022-01-27 10:11:35 PM  

natazha: We've been in our house for two years, paid $425k for it.  In the past three months I've gotten letters from real estate agents claiming they can get $500k, $550k, and the latest $630k.  When it went on the market three and a half years ago, it listed at $545k, dropped five times, went into escrow, dropped out, dropped the price again and we bought it.  So, I'm inclined to say the numbers in the article are rather puffed up.


One can draw parallels between what we're currently seeing with bitcoin to what we're seeing with the housing market. Massive speculation buying in hopes to make big money. Unfortunately it is very easy to manipulate the masses with shiny objects loud noises and promises of a better tomorrow, but if only you do this one thing.
 
2022-01-27 10:24:32 PM  
This is what happens when supply has failed to meet demand for the past five years.

The population increases, the price of houses goes up.  You can't explain that!
 
2022-01-27 10:26:02 PM  

Sgygus: 2fardownthread: So how does it end?

Search your heart, you know how it ends.


House values will keep rising until we hit "peak population" in the next couple of generations, and then they'll plummet in price. To be honest, that's the least of future generations worries. So much of our society and economy is built on "growth" than contraction is going to seriously fark up just about every aspect of life. Shame we won't be alive to
watch it all go down, would be kind of cool to see how society evolves with such a radically different paradigm.
 
2022-01-27 10:27:35 PM  
I closed in Dec 2020 and was able to pay under asking.  My new neighbor was the winner out against 17 other bids and paid $100k over on a ~530k house 6 months later. So sure I could turn around and make money on this house but then where do I live? I would hate to try and buy a house right now.  Feel like the last guy on the chopper at Saigon. Oh and my agent told me I got lucky because the seller agent did a terrible job marketing and the owner wanted to just sell and move on. If I was in the market now I couldn't get this house. shiat is farked and it shouldn't be this way. Need to stop places like Blackrock, Vanguard, and Zillow from buying housed. Individuals only, nor corporations. Break them up and scatter them to the wind I say.
 
2022-01-27 10:31:08 PM  

2fardownthread: That is a shocking number. Is it really providing twice the service it did 10 years ago? Is there twice the convenience? Twice the floor space?

Another consideration is where the value accreted and where it vanished. Lower price properties, let's say, halved. Higher price properties quadrupled, emphasizing location and making the high price problem so much worse in areas that were already having price problems.

Yet another consideration is the value of infrastructure. Has it doubled? No. So we have rapidly depreciating infrastructure supporting rapidly appreciating residences and property. What policy makers SHOULD do is tax those property owners to improve infrastructure and increase the value for everyone. But that ain't going to happen. It should happen immediately. Now is the time. This is the chance. This might "lock in" the service value of expensive properties.

So how does it end?


Your asking the question backwards.

Has the US dollar lost 1/2 of its value in the last 10 years?
 
2022-01-27 10:31:57 PM  
Home prices that exceed income levels make no sense and can't last. If nobody can afford to buy your house, how can it sell?
 
2022-01-27 10:32:34 PM  

Shaggy_C: Sgygus: 2fardownthread: So how does it end?

Search your heart, you know how it ends.

House values will keep rising until we hit "peak population" in the next couple of generations, and then they'll plummet in price. To be honest, that's the least of future generations worries. So much of our society and economy is built on "growth" than contraction is going to seriously fark up just about every aspect of life. Shame we won't be alive to
watch it all go down, would be kind of cool to see how society evolves with such a radically different paradigm.


When you fly from New York to LA you realize how much undeveloped land there is in the US.
 
2022-01-27 10:39:38 PM  
Yeah I likely just over paid for one in the J-ville market. My only saving grace is I'm in a position where I can amortize the shiat out of the payments and shave off a few years. Ugh, adulting sucks.
 
2022-01-27 11:02:49 PM  

natazha: We've been in our house for two years, paid $425k for it.  In the past three months I've gotten letters from real estate agents claiming they can get $500k, $550k, and the latest $630k.  When it went on the market three and a half years ago, it listed at $545k, dropped five times, went into escrow, dropped out, dropped the price again and we bought it.  So, I'm inclined to say the numbers in the article are rather puffed up.


Since this is a dupe article that was also posted yesterday, I won't go into details again, but we did sell, and just closed on a new home today.  We got $50k over asking without realizing that was a possibility.  We were gobsmacked.   Fortunately the new house we bought was the victim of a terrible real estate listing by someone who took the photos with a potato, but when we got there we found a great property and grabbed it.  No competition.  That's actually happened to us twice now.  Pays to dig deep on the real estate websites.

/Doing a simultaneous buy/sell is crazy stressful...
 
2022-01-27 11:25:51 PM  

cefm: Home prices that exceed income levels make no sense and can't last. If nobody can afford to buy your house, how can it sell?


Only a tiny sliver of the total housing market is for sale at any given time.  It's an extremely illiquid market and the median income really has nothing to do with housing prices because the median household isn't who is buying houses in expensive markets.
 
2022-01-27 11:56:47 PM  

cefm: Home prices that exceed income levels make no sense and can't last. If nobody can afford to buy your house, how can it sell?


Well, obviously quite a few people can afford to buy the houses. Remember that the US has something like 145 million households. So if you look at even the top 1%, that's 1.45 million households that can afford to buy houses.
 
2022-01-28 12:39:55 AM  
Buckets of money being thrown at those companies (such as Zillow) buying all of these properties and jacking up the prices.

In the same small townhouse development near me where units sold @ ~280k in 2016 and were going for $325k-$345k last spring;
Zillow buys unit for $410k this last summer. Just unloaded it for $382k.
Zillow buys unit several doors down for $360k. Puts it back on market for $430k. Slowly drops price. Just sold for $360k, $15k under their last asking price.

I'm very happy to see a company that was buying up everything in sight and jacking up the prices by 20% have that all go wrong and lose those buckets of money from their investors.
 
2022-01-28 12:40:11 AM  

Lusiphur: cefm: Home prices that exceed income levels make no sense and can't last. If nobody can afford to buy your house, how can it sell?

Well, obviously quite a few people can afford to buy the houses. Remember that the US has something like 145 million households. So if you look at even the top 1%, that's 1.45 million households that can afford to buy houses.


I just bought a second home. Cost me all of $65k. Y'all need to stop trying to live where everyone else wants to live.

Life's quite affordable in the rural countrylands and secondary/tertiary cities.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
2022-01-28 12:50:29 AM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: Lusiphur: cefm: Home prices that exceed income levels make no sense and can't last. If nobody can afford to buy your house, how can it sell?

Well, obviously quite a few people can afford to buy the houses. Remember that the US has something like 145 million households. So if you look at even the top 1%, that's 1.45 million households that can afford to buy houses.

I just bought a second home. Cost me all of $65k. Y'all need to stop trying to live where everyone else wants to live.

Life's quite affordable in the rural countrylands and secondary/tertiary cities.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


All the jobs tend to be where the people live. I'm pretty sure there's a connection between the two.
 
2022-01-28 12:51:36 AM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: Lusiphur: cefm: Home prices that exceed income levels make no sense and can't last. If nobody can afford to buy your house, how can it sell?

Well, obviously quite a few people can afford to buy the houses. Remember that the US has something like 145 million households. So if you look at even the top 1%, that's 1.45 million households that can afford to buy houses.

I just bought a second home. Cost me all of $65k. Y'all need to stop trying to live where everyone else wants to live.

Life's quite affordable in the rural countrylands and secondary/tertiary cities.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Sure, and maybe eventually that'll be doable while getting paid a good wage and working a good job, but until remote work becomes the standard (and I'm not convinced it ever will, fully,) my job required me to be in a population center to make the kind of money I want to make.

A lot of people also enjoy the amenities that only come with living in a metro area. With all due respect to the fine people of Ohio, I've been to Toledo on business, and there is absolutely no amount of money you could pay me to live there, unless it was enough money that I could "live" there while actually living out of a suite in the Mandarin Oriental Paris. I need to be no more than an hour outside of a global capital. I've tried the secondary/tertiary city thing and spent a couple of years in Gulfport/Biloxi and Charleston (SC, not WV.) I couldn't do it. Most people can't, which is why houses in the sticks go for $65,000. The supply is there, there's just no demand.
 
2022-01-28 1:01:10 AM  

Lusiphur: 137 Is An Excellent Time: Lusiphur: cefm: Home prices that exceed income levels make no sense and can't last. If nobody can afford to buy your house, how can it sell?

Well, obviously quite a few people can afford to buy the houses. Remember that the US has something like 145 million households. So if you look at even the top 1%, that's 1.45 million households that can afford to buy houses.

I just bought a second home. Cost me all of $65k. Y'all need to stop trying to live where everyone else wants to live.

Life's quite affordable in the rural countrylands and secondary/tertiary cities.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure, and maybe eventually that'll be doable while getting paid a good wage and working a good job, but until remote work becomes the standard (and I'm not convinced it ever will, fully,) my job required me to be in a population center to make the kind of money I want to make.

A lot of people also enjoy the amenities that only come with living in a metro area. With all due respect to the fine people of Ohio, I've been to Toledo on business, and there is absolutely no amount of money you could pay me to live there, unless it was enough money that I could "live" there while actually living out of a suite in the Mandarin Oriental Paris. I need to be no more than an hour outside of a global capital. I've tried the secondary/tertiary city thing and spent a couple of years in Gulfport/Biloxi and Charleston (SC, not WV.) I couldn't do it. Most people can't, which is why houses in the sticks go for $65,000. The supply is there, there's just no demand.


You don't need to earn as much to have a higher standard of living. If you're making minimum wage, those secondary and tertiary cities look pretty healthy when an apartment only costs you five days wages vs half a months wages in a larger market.

For instance, in Toledo, a one bedroom apartment is roughly $475/month. Minimum wage is $9.30/hr and indexed to inflation.

Let's say you go move to a city whose minimum wage is $19/hr (though, I don't think it exists). Unless you can find a one bedroom apartment for $950/month, you're doing better in Ohio.

That math works on the higher classes too. You can make $60k a year in Ohio (less than what a public school teacher here earns), and afford a home, a second home, a boat, a couple cars, and vacations whenever you'd like.

Why? Because you're spending so little of your income on the basics. You could be working at WalMart and living a higher standard of living than someone earning $150k in Manhattan.
 
2022-01-28 1:15:23 AM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: That math works on the higher classes too. You can make $60k a year in Ohio (less than what a public school teacher here earns), and afford a home, a second home, a boat, a couple cars, and vacations whenever you'd like.

Why? Because you're spending so little of your income on the basics. You could be working at WalMart and living a higher standard of living than someone earning $150k in Manhattan.


Some people don't really want 2 houses and a boat in Ohio that comes with a very finite cap on their income - maybe they prefer high-end night clubs, Michelin starred restaurants, better weather and the potential to make absolute gobs of money?  $150K is a rounding error for someone who is mid-career at tier 1 finance or law or tech firms.
 
2022-01-28 1:26:23 AM  

OptionC: 137 Is An Excellent Time: That math works on the higher classes too. You can make $60k a year in Ohio (less than what a public school teacher here earns), and afford a home, a second home, a boat, a couple cars, and vacations whenever you'd like.

Why? Because you're spending so little of your income on the basics. You could be working at WalMart and living a higher standard of living than someone earning $150k in Manhattan.

Some people don't really want 2 houses and a boat in Ohio that comes with a very finite cap on their income - maybe they prefer high-end night clubs, Michelin starred restaurants, better weather and the potential to make absolute gobs of money?  $150K is a rounding error for someone who is mid-career at tier 1 finance or law or tech firms.


Just how many people of the 8 million who reside in NYC do you think earn $150k a year?

Would it surprise you that less than 10% of HOUSEHOLDS (meaning, two incomes), achieve that level of income even in NYC?
 
2022-01-28 1:42:36 AM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: Lusiphur: 137 Is An Excellent Time: Lusiphur: cefm: Home prices that exceed income levels make no sense and can't last. If nobody can afford to buy your house, how can it sell?

Well, obviously quite a few people can afford to buy the houses. Remember that the US has something like 145 million households. So if you look at even the top 1%, that's 1.45 million households that can afford to buy houses.

I just bought a second home. Cost me all of $65k. Y'all need to stop trying to live where everyone else wants to live.

Life's quite affordable in the rural countrylands and secondary/tertiary cities.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure, and maybe eventually that'll be doable while getting paid a good wage and working a good job, but until remote work becomes the standard (and I'm not convinced it ever will, fully,) my job required me to be in a population center to make the kind of money I want to make.

A lot of people also enjoy the amenities that only come with living in a metro area. With all due respect to the fine people of Ohio, I've been to Toledo on business, and there is absolutely no amount of money you could pay me to live there, unless it was enough money that I could "live" there while actually living out of a suite in the Mandarin Oriental Paris. I need to be no more than an hour outside of a global capital. I've tried the secondary/tertiary city thing and spent a couple of years in Gulfport/Biloxi and Charleston (SC, not WV.) I couldn't do it. Most people can't, which is why houses in the sticks go for $65,000. The supply is there, there's just no demand.

You don't need to earn as much to have a higher standard of living. If you're making minimum wage, those secondary and tertiary cities look pretty healthy when an apartment only costs you five days wages vs half a months wages in a larger market.

For instance, in Toledo, a one bedroom apartment is roughly $475/month. Minimum wage is $9.30/hr and indexed to inflation.

Let's say you go move to a city whose minimum wage is $19/hr (though, I don't think it exists). Unless you can find a one bedroom apartment for $950/month, you're doing better in Ohio.

That math works on the higher classes too. You can make $60k a year in Ohio (less than what a public school teacher here earns), and afford a home, a second home, a boat, a couple cars, and vacations whenever you'd like.

Why? Because you're spending so little of your income on the basics. You could be working at WalMart and living a higher standard of living than someone earning $150k in Manhattan.


Let's do some math real quick:

At an income of $60,000, with an average rent of $500, you're left with $54,000 pre-tax at the end of the year for everything else in Toledo.

At an income of $150,000 with an average rent of $3,000, you're left with $114,000 pre-tax at the end of the year in NYC.

Remember that most expenses don't scale with location, so you're going to be paying about the same for food, healthcare, etc. whether you live in Toledo or Manhattan. Transportation costs will be lower in the city, since a monthly MetroCard is cheaper than pretty much any car and insurance. You'll be paying less in utilities, too. The point being that while your disposable income might look better as a percentage of total income in Toledo, you'll actually be living much better in NYC.

Then there's amenities. On any given day, there are hundreds of things to do absolutely free in NYC. Hell, you could go to the MET every single weekend for a year (all free, again) and see something new every week. Bored of the MET? No problem, there's plenty more museums to choose from, representing collections of pretty much everything from pretty much everywhere.

Prefer the outdoors? No problem! Some of the best hiking trails and fishing spots in the US are a short train ride away. There's actually a weekend train that stops literally at a trailhead. There's surfing an hour south, skiing an hour north, salt or freshwater fishing in every direction, hunting north and west, camping, you name it.

Want to eat out? There are two hundred restaurants within a 15-minute walk, many among the best in the world, representing hundreds of different cuisines (except good Ethiopian, for some reason.) And if you want authentic, that monthly MetroCard puts you within 30 minutes of any ethnic neighborhood you can think of.

Like live music? Every major act and almost every minor act are guaranteed to pass through regularly. Like live theatre? There's Broadway, off-Broadway, off-off-Broadway, off-off-off-Broadway, and weird experimental theatre pop-ups in someone's living room. There are comedy clubs inside comedy clubs, and because it's NYC, you might go on a random Tuesday and suddenly there's an SNL cast member doing stand-up just to keep themselves fresh.

And speaking of that vacation, while there are occasionally fight deals out of Detroit, NYC is one of the few places where you can catch a surprise flight deal and be in Europe next week for $300 round trip.

My point being: if you're a homebody that just wants to watch TV and walk through the woods, and you make a median American wage or less, AND you can find a job making a median American wage in Toledo (remember, median income there is $24,000, or about $12/hour,) then Toledo or any of these other heartland cities will probably work great for you. If not, though, your going to enjoy a much better quality of life in a large city.
 
2022-01-28 1:48:09 AM  

Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: 137 Is An Excellent Time: Lusiphur: cefm: Home prices that exceed income levels make no sense and can't last. If nobody can afford to buy your house, how can it sell?

Well, obviously quite a few people can afford to buy the houses. Remember that the US has something like 145 million households. So if you look at even the top 1%, that's 1.45 million households that can afford to buy houses.

I just bought a second home. Cost me all of $65k. Y'all need to stop trying to live where everyone else wants to live.

Life's quite affordable in the rural countrylands and secondary/tertiary cities.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

All the jobs tend to be where the people live. I'm pretty sure there's a connection between the two.


Not everyone has to physically be in a workplace now a days to earn money.
 
2022-01-28 1:50:22 AM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: OptionC: 137 Is An Excellent Time: That math works on the higher classes too. You can make $60k a year in Ohio (less than what a public school teacher here earns), and afford a home, a second home, a boat, a couple cars, and vacations whenever you'd like.

Why? Because you're spending so little of your income on the basics. You could be working at WalMart and living a higher standard of living than someone earning $150k in Manhattan.

Some people don't really want 2 houses and a boat in Ohio that comes with a very finite cap on their income - maybe they prefer high-end night clubs, Michelin starred restaurants, better weather and the potential to make absolute gobs of money?  $150K is a rounding error for someone who is mid-career at tier 1 finance or law or tech firms.

Just how many people of the 8 million who reside in NYC do you think earn $150k a year?

Would it surprise you that less than 10% of HOUSEHOLDS (meaning, two incomes), achieve that level of income even in NYC?


That's incorrect. The 90th percentile individual income in NYC is $150,000. For households, that 75th percentile. So 25% of households make that much or more. By the way, a household can actually be one income, it's not always two or more. So about 2 million people.
 
2022-01-28 1:53:03 AM  

Lusiphur: 137 Is An Excellent Time: Lusiphur: 137 Is An Excellent Time: Lusiphur: cefm: Home prices that exceed income levels make no sense and can't last. If nobody can afford to buy your house, how can it sell?

Well, obviously quite a few people can afford to buy the houses. Remember that the US has something like 145 million households. So if you look at even the top 1%, that's 1.45 million households that can afford to buy houses.

I just bought a second home. Cost me all of $65k. Y'all need to stop trying to live where everyone else wants to live.

Life's quite affordable in the rural countrylands and secondary/tertiary cities.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure, and maybe eventually that'll be doable while getting paid a good wage and working a good job, but until remote work becomes the standard (and I'm not convinced it ever will, fully,) my job required me to be in a population center to make the kind of money I want to make.

A lot of people also enjoy the amenities that only come with living in a metro area. With all due respect to the fine people of Ohio, I've been to Toledo on business, and there is absolutely no amount of money you could pay me to live there, unless it was enough money that I could "live" there while actually living out of a suite in the Mandarin Oriental Paris. I need to be no more than an hour outside of a global capital. I've tried the secondary/tertiary city thing and spent a couple of years in Gulfport/Biloxi and Charleston (SC, not WV.) I couldn't do it. Most people can't, which is why houses in the sticks go for $65,000. The supply is there, there's just no demand.

You don't need to earn as much to have a higher standard of living. If you're making minimum wage, those secondary and tertiary cities look pretty healthy when an apartment only costs you five days wages vs half a months wages in a larger market.

For instance, in Toledo, a one bedroom apartment is roughly $475/month. Minimum wage is $9.30/hr and indexed to inflation.

Let's say you go move to a city whose minimum wage is $19/hr (though, I don't think it exists). Unless you can find a one bedroom apartment for $950/month, you're doing better in Ohio.

That math works on the higher classes too. You can make $60k a year in Ohio (less than what a public school teacher here earns), and afford a home, a second home, a boat, a couple cars, and vacations whenever you'd like.

Why? Because you're spending so little of your income on the basics. You could be working at WalMart and living a higher standard of living than someone earning $150k in Manhattan.

Let's do some math real quick:

At an income of $60,000, with an average rent of $500, you're left with $54,000 pre-tax at the end of the year for everything else in Toledo.

At an income of $150,000 with an average rent of $3,000, you're left with $114,000 pre-tax at the end of the year in NYC.

Remember that most expenses don't scale with location, so you're going to be paying about the same for food, healthcare, etc. whether you live in Toledo or Manhattan. Transportation costs will be lower in the city, since a monthly MetroCard is cheaper than pretty much any car and insurance. You'll be paying less in utilities, too. The point being that while your disposable income might look better as a percentage of total income in Toledo, you'll actually be living much better in NYC.

Then there's amenities. On any given day, there are hundreds of things to do absolutely free in NYC. Hell, you could go to the MET every single weekend for a year (all free, again) and see something new every week. Bored of the MET? No problem, there's plenty more museums to choose from, representing collections of pretty much everything from pretty much everywhere.

Prefer the outdoors? No problem! Some of the best hiking trails and fishing spots in the US are a short train ride away. There's actually a weekend train that stops literally at a trailhead. There's surfing an hour south, skiing an hour north, salt or freshwater fishing in every direction, hunting north and west, camping, you name it.

Want to eat out? There are two hundred restaurants within a 15-minute walk, many among the best in the world, representing hundreds of different cuisines (except good Ethiopian, for some reason.) And if you want authentic, that monthly MetroCard puts you within 30 minutes of any ethnic neighborhood you can think of.

Like live music? Every major act and almost every minor act are guaranteed to pass through regularly. Like live theatre? There's Broadway, off-Broadway, off-off-Broadway, off-off-off-Broadway, and weird experimental theatre pop-ups in someone's living room. There are comedy clubs inside comedy clubs, and because it's NYC, you might go on a random Tuesday and suddenly there's an SNL cast member doing stand-up just to keep themselves fresh.

And speaking of that vacation, while there are occasionally fight deals out of Detroit, NYC is one of the few places where you can catch a surprise flight deal and be in Europe next week for $300 round trip.

My point being: if you're a homebody that just wants to watch TV and walk through the woods, and you make a median American wage or less, AND you can find a job making a median American wage in Toledo (remember, median income there is $24,000, or about $12/hour,) then Toledo or any of these other heartland cities will probably work great for you. If not, though, your going to enjoy a much better quality of life in a large city.


Debatable. Lots of stuff is more expensive in NYC - food just being one with massive disparities.

Movie tickets being another. A movie ticket here is $9 ... in NYC? $26.

Fark user imageView Full Size


There's lots of free stuff to do in Ohio as well. The heartland isn't as bad as you may believe it it.

But yes, if you're making $150k a year in NYC, you can probably scrape by just fine living in a closet vs a single family home on three acres of land. How about someone working minimum wage in NYC ($15/hr) vs. minimum wage in Ohio ($9.30/hr)?
 
2022-01-28 2:47:49 AM  
Actually, I'm fine. I bought a place for $20.00 last year. Don't know what anyone is worried about.


...

Why do people feel the need to blab about their money on the internet?
 
2022-01-28 5:03:00 AM  

AlHarris31: I closed in Dec 2020 and was able to pay under asking.  My new neighbor was the winner out against 17 other bids and paid $100k over on a ~530k house 6 months later. So sure I could turn around and make money on this house but then where do I live? I would hate to try and buy a house right now.  Feel like the last guy on the chopper at Saigon. Oh and my agent told me I got lucky because the seller agent did a terrible job marketing and the owner wanted to just sell and move on. If I was in the market now I couldn't get this house. shiat is farked and it shouldn't be this way. Need to stop places like Blackrock, Vanguard, and Zillow from buying housed. Individuals only, nor corporations. Break them up and scatter them to the wind I say.


Similar story here. Bought my place for just over 390 and about 10k under asking - the impression my agent and I got was it had been renovated and sold by the prior long-term owners two years prior and intended to be used as a rental property, but that hadn't quite worked out for whomever bought it and the current owner just wanted to cut their losses and move on. Average prices are now around 500-600. I'd be completely priced out now so I'm very lucky I got in when I could.
 
2022-01-28 7:41:14 AM  
We bought our very modest starter home about 8 years ago for ~115k.  When we moved in it was young families like us buying, it's a small, working class neighborhood, exactly what you'd expect.

In the past 5 years, none of the houses have sold to owners, all of them are rentals now.  $12-1500/month (long term rentals only per our HOA, they were $800-1000/month 5 years ago).  Houses are selling for 200+, most recently I saw one sell within a few days of listing for 240.

It's completely ridiculous.  I'm glad we got in before the market started climbing like this, but it's total bullshiat and it's ruining the lives of working class people by stripping them of their ability to build equity and forcing them into a spiraling debt cycle because the cost of rent has gone up like 50% in the past 3 years and I don't know a soul that has received a 50% raise.
 
2022-01-28 8:12:19 AM  
As somebody who is recently divorced and hunting for a house to buy I am getting a kick out of these replies.

/Oy, who am I kidding, it sucks
//Housing market sucks, but the rental market sucks worse
///Difficulty: Phoenix
 
2022-01-28 8:29:28 AM  

2fardownthread: That is a shocking number. Is it really providing twice the service it did 10 years ago? Is there twice the convenience? Twice the floor space?

Another consideration is where the value accreted and where it vanished. Lower price properties, let's say, halved. Higher price properties quadrupled, emphasizing location and making the high price problem so much worse in areas that were already having price problems.

Yet another consideration is the value of infrastructure. Has it doubled? No. So we have rapidly depreciating infrastructure supporting rapidly appreciating residences and property. What policy makers SHOULD do is tax those property owners to improve infrastructure and increase the value for everyone. But that ain't going to happen. It should happen immediately. Now is the time. This is the chance. This might "lock in" the service value of expensive properties.

So how does it end?


As someone trying to by a house now, what people are paying is absolutely irrational. At the same time, in major urban areas, nobody is building a lot of new homes because there are no longer any huge tracts of land available. Further, homes with yards are becoming premiums because most new construction are townhomes so to squeeze in multiple homes into small parcels. Finally, with many workers anticipating working from home forever, people who used to be content with an apartment now want a home for dedicated workspace. All of these factors will likely have a permanent impact on supply.
 
2022-01-28 8:31:15 AM  
(fights back overwhelming feeling of deja vu).
 
2022-01-28 8:33:21 AM  

thornhill: 2fardownthread: That is a shocking number. Is it really providing twice the service it did 10 years ago? Is there twice the convenience? Twice the floor space?

Another consideration is where the value accreted and where it vanished. Lower price properties, let's say, halved. Higher price properties quadrupled, emphasizing location and making the high price problem so much worse in areas that were already having price problems.

Yet another consideration is the value of infrastructure. Has it doubled? No. So we have rapidly depreciating infrastructure supporting rapidly appreciating residences and property. What policy makers SHOULD do is tax those property owners to improve infrastructure and increase the value for everyone. But that ain't going to happen. It should happen immediately. Now is the time. This is the chance. This might "lock in" the service value of expensive properties.

So how does it end?

As someone trying to by a house now, what people are paying is absolutely irrational. At the same time, in major urban areas, nobody is building a lot of new homes because there are no longer any huge tracts of land available. Further, homes with yards are becoming premiums because most new construction are townhomes so to squeeze in multiple homes into small parcels. Finally, with many workers anticipating working from home forever, people who used to be content with an apartment now want a home for dedicated workspace. All of these factors will likely have a permanent impact on supply.


In SW Ohio here, between Dayton and Cinci, there's still lots of farm and woodland. They can't chop it down fast enough.
 
2022-01-28 9:20:56 AM  

HypnozombieX: Yeah I likely just over paid for one in the J-ville market. My only saving grace is I'm in a position where I can amortize the shiat out of the payments and shave off a few years. Ugh, adulting sucks.


I don't think that's what 'amortize' means.

But if you're planning on making extra loan payments on a fresh new fixed rate mortgage, I'd seriously reconsider. That money is relatively slow & expensive to access again if you have any need, and your interest rate is probably already better than any current option. There's a fair chance you won't have another shot at such low-cost money on a long term again in your lifetime.

Unless you've already got a generous emergency fund and maxed out retirement savings, I think extra mortgage payments are very risky with a minimal gain.
 
2022-01-28 9:39:10 AM  

Nick Nostril: thornhill: 2fardownthread: That is a shocking number. Is it really providing twice the service it did 10 years ago? Is there twice the convenience? Twice the floor space?

Another consideration is where the value accreted and where it vanished. Lower price properties, let's say, halved. Higher price properties quadrupled, emphasizing location and making the high price problem so much worse in areas that were already having price problems.

Yet another consideration is the value of infrastructure. Has it doubled? No. So we have rapidly depreciating infrastructure supporting rapidly appreciating residences and property. What policy makers SHOULD do is tax those property owners to improve infrastructure and increase the value for everyone. But that ain't going to happen. It should happen immediately. Now is the time. This is the chance. This might "lock in" the service value of expensive properties.

So how does it end?

As someone trying to by a house now, what people are paying is absolutely irrational. At the same time, in major urban areas, nobody is building a lot of new homes because there are no longer any huge tracts of land available. Further, homes with yards are becoming premiums because most new construction are townhomes so to squeeze in multiple homes into small parcels. Finally, with many workers anticipating working from home forever, people who used to be content with an apartment now want a home for dedicated workspace. All of these factors will likely have a permanent impact on supply.

In SW Ohio here, between Dayton and Cinci, there's still lots of farm and woodland. They can't chop it down fast enough.


The Cincinnati metro is the 30th most populous metro area, and among the top 30, it's one one of the slowest growing.
 
2022-01-28 9:41:03 AM  

OccamsWhiskers: HypnozombieX: Yeah I likely just over paid for one in the J-ville market. My only saving grace is I'm in a position where I can amortize the shiat out of the payments and shave off a few years. Ugh, adulting sucks.

I don't think that's what 'amortize' means.

But if you're planning on making extra loan payments on a fresh new fixed rate mortgage, I'd seriously reconsider. That money is relatively slow & expensive to access again if you have any need, and your interest rate is probably already better than any current option. There's a fair chance you won't have another shot at such low-cost money on a long term again in your lifetime.

Unless you've already got a generous emergency fund and maxed out retirement savings, I think extra mortgage payments are very risky with a minimal gain.


I make lvl2 software developer money, but I spend it like a penny pinching Hobo. I'm less worried about having access to more money than I am with clearing any debt I have to take on. I'll probably never get 3.8% on a mortgage ever again, but I don't intend to buy another house so it's all good.
 
2022-01-28 10:22:36 AM  

thornhill: huge tracts of land


c.tenor.comView Full Size
 
2022-01-28 10:40:48 AM  
And you wonder why younger people are into gambling on risky shiat like crypto and NFTs... if you're in your 20s and making an average salary its pretty obvious you're going to have to hit the lottery to get a down payment on a house.
 
2022-01-28 10:46:10 AM  

D135: And you wonder why younger people are into gambling on risky shiat like crypto and NFTs... if you're in your 20s and making an average salary its pretty obvious you're going to have to hit the lottery to get a down payment on a house.


Or, accept a long commute. Like I said upthread, you can buy a nice home for under $200k within an hours drive of the third largest city in the USA (similarly, plenty of people commute over an hour on MetroNorth to NYC while living in Poughkeepsie or Newbergh.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/24-Miller-Rd-Poughkeepsie-NY-12603/30086065_zpid/

Sure, an hours commute might not be sexy, but it's a hell of a lot better than renting for the rest of your life.

I think people think they are owed an affordable home that's close to work and that's really never been the case. You want to avoid the commute, pay more. You want to pay less, accept the commute.
 
2022-01-28 11:21:33 AM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: D135: And you wonder why younger people are into gambling on risky shiat like crypto and NFTs... if you're in your 20s and making an average salary its pretty obvious you're going to have to hit the lottery to get a down payment on a house.

Or, accept a long commute. Like I said upthread, you can buy a nice home for under $200k within an hours drive of the third largest city in the USA (similarly, plenty of people commute over an hour on MetroNorth to NYC while living in Poughkeepsie or Newbergh.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/24-Miller-Rd-Poughkeepsie-NY-12603/30086065_zpid/

Sure, an hours commute might not be sexy, but it's a hell of a lot better than renting for the rest of your life.

I think people think they are owed an affordable home that's close to work and that's really never been the case. You want to avoid the commute, pay more. You want to pay less, accept the commute.


Exchanging rent with extreme car costs isn't smart. Especially sinking your life away everyday for 3 hours driving.
 
2022-01-28 11:25:27 AM  

Intrepid00: 137 Is An Excellent Time: D135: And you wonder why younger people are into gambling on risky shiat like crypto and NFTs... if you're in your 20s and making an average salary its pretty obvious you're going to have to hit the lottery to get a down payment on a house.

Or, accept a long commute. Like I said upthread, you can buy a nice home for under $200k within an hours drive of the third largest city in the USA (similarly, plenty of people commute over an hour on MetroNorth to NYC while living in Poughkeepsie or Newbergh.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/24-Miller-Rd-Poughkeepsie-NY-12603/30086065_zpid/

Sure, an hours commute might not be sexy, but it's a hell of a lot better than renting for the rest of your life.

I think people think they are owed an affordable home that's close to work and that's really never been the case. You want to avoid the commute, pay more. You want to pay less, accept the commute.

Exchanging rent with extreme car costs isn't smart. Especially sinking your life away everyday for 3 hours driving.


Driving 500 miles a week isn't "extreme" car costs. That's less than what I drive each year in a 20 year old Honda going to various client's places.

As for the value proposition, if you can't afford it, what choice do you have?

Renting is just willingly flushing money down the toilet. I'd rather purchase with a commute than rent without one. Equity is equity.
 
2022-01-28 11:35:47 AM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: D135: And you wonder why younger people are into gambling on risky shiat like crypto and NFTs... if you're in your 20s and making an average salary its pretty obvious you're going to have to hit the lottery to get a down payment on a house.

Or, accept a long commute. Like I said upthread, you can buy a nice home for under $200k within an hours drive of the third largest city in the USA (similarly, plenty of people commute over an hour on MetroNorth to NYC while living in Poughkeepsie or Newbergh.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/24-Miller-Rd-Poughkeepsie-NY-12603/30086065_zpid/

Sure, an hours commute might not be sexy, but it's a hell of a lot better than renting for the rest of your life.

I think people think they are owed an affordable home that's close to work and that's really never been the case. You want to avoid the commute, pay more. You want to pay less, accept the commute.


Of course, that would be the responsible thing to do.  But people love short-cuts, what can I say?
 
2022-01-28 11:40:59 AM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: Intrepid00: 137 Is An Excellent Time: D135: And you wonder why younger people are into gambling on risky shiat like crypto and NFTs... if you're in your 20s and making an average salary its pretty obvious you're going to have to hit the lottery to get a down payment on a house.

Or, accept a long commute. Like I said upthread, you can buy a nice home for under $200k within an hours drive of the third largest city in the USA (similarly, plenty of people commute over an hour on MetroNorth to NYC while living in Poughkeepsie or Newbergh.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/24-Miller-Rd-Poughkeepsie-NY-12603/30086065_zpid/

Sure, an hours commute might not be sexy, but it's a hell of a lot better than renting for the rest of your life.

I think people think they are owed an affordable home that's close to work and that's really never been the case. You want to avoid the commute, pay more. You want to pay less, accept the commute.

Exchanging rent with extreme car costs isn't smart. Especially sinking your life away everyday for 3 hours driving.

Driving 500 miles a week isn't "extreme" car costs. That's less than what I drive each year in a 20 year old Honda going to various client's places.

As for the value proposition, if you can't afford it, what choice do you have?

Renting is just willingly flushing money down the toilet. I'd rather purchase with a commute than rent without one. Equity is equity.


1. Yes it is.
2. Go to your boss and ask for money for find a new job in this market.
3. Renting isn't flushing money down the toilet automatically. Anyone that thinks that doesn't know shiat. Owning a home is more than just mortgage. It's taxes, interest, insurance, repairs, replacement, shiat happening, increased travel costs if you go for those hour plus commuters. You need to calculate all that before saying renting is throwing away money.
 
2022-01-28 11:54:23 AM  

D135: And you wonder why younger people are into gambling on risky shiat like crypto and NFTs... if you're in your 20s and making an average salary its pretty obvious you're going to have to hit the lottery to get a down payment on a house.


As I've said in other threads, expectations for what you get in a home are much higher than they were 20, 30, and especially 50 years ago. For example, we all know that the average size of new homes increases decade over decade (the average size of a new home in 1950 was about 1,000 square feet; today it's 2,700). That's a major reason why homes are more expensive today than they were for our parents. And when you look inside a home, it's kinda remarkable how much has changed there. Up until the 1960s, it was rare that a three bedroom home had more than 1 bathroom. Today, the expectation is 1 bathroom per bedroom. Also, kitchen's are now the focal point of new and renovated homes; along with the bathroom, the kitchen is the most expensive space to build in the house.

There are certainly affordable houses out there **if** you're willing to settle for something on the smaller side, that might only have two small bathrooms, and a kitchen that doesn't look like something out of a cooking show.

And of course, location is pushing up prices because land is finite -- we can't all live within walking distance of a commercial corridor.

In ATL where the market is insanely hot, you can still find 2b/2ba, 1,000 square feet new construction for as low as 230 in neighborhoods that are about a 10 minute drive to popular neighborhoods. I would think most people with a college education working a white collar job could save up for a 10 percent downpayment.
 
2022-01-28 12:00:39 PM  

Intrepid00: 137 Is An Excellent Time: Intrepid00: 137 Is An Excellent Time: D135: And you wonder why younger people are into gambling on risky shiat like crypto and NFTs... if you're in your 20s and making an average salary its pretty obvious you're going to have to hit the lottery to get a down payment on a house.

Or, accept a long commute. Like I said upthread, you can buy a nice home for under $200k within an hours drive of the third largest city in the USA (similarly, plenty of people commute over an hour on MetroNorth to NYC while living in Poughkeepsie or Newbergh.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/24-Miller-Rd-Poughkeepsie-NY-12603/30086065_zpid/

Sure, an hours commute might not be sexy, but it's a hell of a lot better than renting for the rest of your life.

I think people think they are owed an affordable home that's close to work and that's really never been the case. You want to avoid the commute, pay more. You want to pay less, accept the commute.

Exchanging rent with extreme car costs isn't smart. Especially sinking your life away everyday for 3 hours driving.

Driving 500 miles a week isn't "extreme" car costs. That's less than what I drive each year in a 20 year old Honda going to various client's places.

As for the value proposition, if you can't afford it, what choice do you have?

Renting is just willingly flushing money down the toilet. I'd rather purchase with a commute than rent without one. Equity is equity.

1. Yes it is.
2. Go to your boss and ask for money for find a new job in this market.
3. Renting isn't flushing money down the toilet automatically. Anyone that thinks that doesn't know shiat. Owning a home is more than just mortgage. It's taxes, interest, insurance, repairs, replacement, shiat happening, increased travel costs if you go for those hour plus commuters. You need to calculate all that before saying renting is throwing away money.


I did.

Do the math for me.

I bought my 1200sqft home in 2013 for $70k. Average rent for a one bedroom apartment is $500/month (two bedrooms are $650ish). My taxes are $800/year.

I've put about $30k into the house in the last 9 years and it's paid off. My mortgage payment was $479/month INCLUDING PITI.

I know own an $85,000 asset and had payments less than what renting a one bedroom apartment cost.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
2022-01-28 12:02:29 PM  

thornhill: D135: And you wonder why younger people are into gambling on risky shiat like crypto and NFTs... if you're in your 20s and making an average salary its pretty obvious you're going to have to hit the lottery to get a down payment on a house.

As I've said in other threads, expectations for what you get in a home are much higher than they were 20, 30, and especially 50 years ago. For example, we all know that the average size of new homes increases decade over decade (the average size of a new home in 1950 was about 1,000 square feet; today it's 2,700). That's a major reason why homes are more expensive today than they were for our parents. And when you look inside a home, it's kinda remarkable how much has changed there. Up until the 1960s, it was rare that a three bedroom home had more than 1 bathroom. Today, the expectation is 1 bathroom per bedroom. Also, kitchen's are now the focal point of new and renovated homes; along with the bathroom, the kitchen is the most expensive space to build in the house.

There are certainly affordable houses out there **if** you're willing to settle for something on the smaller side, that might only have two small bathrooms, and a kitchen that doesn't look like something out of a cooking show.

And of course, location is pushing up prices because land is finite -- we can't all live within walking distance of a commercial corridor.

In ATL where the market is insanely hot, you can still find 2b/2ba, 1,000 square feet new construction for as low as 230 in neighborhoods that are about a 10 minute drive to popular neighborhoods. I would think most people with a college education working a white collar job could save up for a 10 percent downpayment.


This is very true.  I couldn't believe it when my peers were expecting to have similar houses, cars, and toys their parents have just a few years after graduating.
 
2022-01-28 12:16:30 PM  

137 Is An Excellent Time: Intrepid00: 137 Is An Excellent Time: Intrepid00: 137 Is An Excellent Time: D135: And you wonder why younger people are into gambling on risky shiat like crypto and NFTs... if you're in your 20s and making an average salary its pretty obvious you're going to have to hit the lottery to get a down payment on a house.

Or, accept a long commute. Like I said upthread, you can buy a nice home for under $200k within an hours drive of the third largest city in the USA (similarly, plenty of people commute over an hour on MetroNorth to NYC while living in Poughkeepsie or Newbergh.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/24-Miller-Rd-Poughkeepsie-NY-12603/30086065_zpid/

Sure, an hours commute might not be sexy, but it's a hell of a lot better than renting for the rest of your life.

I think people think they are owed an affordable home that's close to work and that's really never been the case. You want to avoid the commute, pay more. You want to pay less, accept the commute.

Exchanging rent with extreme car costs isn't smart. Especially sinking your life away everyday for 3 hours driving.

Driving 500 miles a week isn't "extreme" car costs. That's less than what I drive each year in a 20 year old Honda going to various client's places.

As for the value proposition, if you can't afford it, what choice do you have?

Renting is just willingly flushing money down the toilet. I'd rather purchase with a commute than rent without one. Equity is equity.

1. Yes it is.
2. Go to your boss and ask for money for find a new job in this market.
3. Renting isn't flushing money down the toilet automatically. Anyone that thinks that doesn't know shiat. Owning a home is more than just mortgage. It's taxes, interest, insurance, repairs, replacement, shiat happening, increased travel costs if you go for those hour plus commuters. You need to calculate all that before saying renting is throwing away money.

I did.

Do the math for me.

I bought my 1200sqft home in 2013 for $70k. Average rent for a one bedroom apartment is $500/month (two bedrooms are $650ish). My taxes are $800/year.

I've put about $30k into the house in the last 9 years and it's paid off. My mortgage payment was $479/month INCLUDING PITI.

I know own an $85,000 asset and had payments less than what renting a one bedroom apartment cost.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Okay, now calculate how much you have pissed away on gas, oil, and other car shiat.
 
2022-01-28 12:25:20 PM  

2fardownthread: That is a shocking number. Is it really providing twice the service it did 10 years ago? Is there twice the convenience? Twice the floor space?

Another consideration is where the value accreted and where it vanished. Lower price properties, let's say, halved. Higher price properties quadrupled, emphasizing location and making the high price problem so much worse in areas that were already having price problems.

Yet another consideration is the value of infrastructure. Has it doubled? No. So we have rapidly depreciating infrastructure supporting rapidly appreciating residences and property. What policy makers SHOULD do is tax those property owners to improve infrastructure and increase the value for everyone. But that ain't going to happen. It should happen immediately. Now is the time. This is the chance. This might "lock in" the service value of expensive properties.

So how does it end?


The time to invest in infrastructure was between 2009 and 2021.
We would have borrowed cheaply and seen higher interest rates make it even cheaper in the long term.
 
2022-01-28 1:42:27 PM  

cefm: Home prices that exceed income levels make no sense and can't last. If nobody can afford to buy your house, how can it sell?


I've owned 2 homes, including my current one.

Maybe I'm being pedantic, but I couldn't afford either of them, until just recently when my assets finally (after about 15 years of saving) outpaced my outstanding debt, but I got to live there because a banker was ready and willing to make money off me.

Frankly, "Afford" doesn't matter much anymore.

Can a bank make money off your debt and can the debt be structured in away that payments (with interest) can be made Is the much more important question when it comes to houses being sold.  If they can, they will provide loans to do it.  If not they won't.

"Affordability" for most people is simply a question of "Can I afford the monthly payments right now"  And banks are more than happy to play games (introductory APR!, 30+ loan terms, 0% down!) to make sure they can, no matter what the sale price.

Worst case scenario for the bank, they foreclose and the house sale usually covers their outstanding principal, and they pocket the interest.
 
2022-01-28 2:11:34 PM  

OccamsWhiskers: HypnozombieX: Yeah I likely just over paid for one in the J-ville market. My only saving grace is I'm in a position where I can amortize the shiat out of the payments and shave off a few years. Ugh, adulting sucks.

I don't think that's what 'amortize' means.

But if you're planning on making extra loan payments on a fresh new fixed rate mortgage, I'd seriously reconsider. That money is relatively slow & expensive to access again if you have any need, and your interest rate is probably already better than any current option. There's a fair chance you won't have another shot at such low-cost money on a long term again in your lifetime.

Unless you've already got a generous emergency fund and maxed out retirement savings, I think extra mortgage payments are very risky with a minimal gain.


This.

I get wanting to retire housing debt ASAP.  But it's risky to do it by making extra loan payments.  Better would be to aggressively put money into a diversified brokerage account (Or hell, a savings account/CDs, if you're conservative about money), that you never touch, then, when the balance of the account outpaces the remaining principal on the mortgage, pay off your mortgage in full.

Your mortgage gets paid off either way, at about the same time, but with this scenario your savings stay liquid.

Putting every extra dime into your mortgage is a good way to get foreclosed the week after a job loss.  If you put that money in an account already earmarked for paying off the mortgage, You'll be able to use the money to pay the mortgage, after you've lost your income, and not feel to bad about it, because that's what the money is there for, anyway.

I think the Dave Ramsey's of the world only recommend it because they think the average Joe is too impulsive to just let a savings/brokerage account grow in the traditional way.  Prove him wrong.
 
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