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(BBC-US)   So much for "natural immunity"   (bbc.com) divider line
    More: Sick, Infectious disease, Polymerase chain reaction, United Kingdom, Imperial College London, University College London, London, Chain reaction, Thermus aquaticus  
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2025 clicks; posted to STEM » on 27 Jan 2022 at 3:25 AM (15 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-01-26 11:48:03 PM  
It seems obvious to me the people who have gotten it multiple times just don't give a f*ck and are not taking recommended precautions.

Thanks plague rats.
 
2022-01-27 4:19:57 AM  

TwowheelinTim: It seems obvious to me the people who have gotten it multiple times just don't give a f*ck and are not taking recommended precautions.

Thanks plague rats.


I got it once this far.

Masks, boostered up, etc.

I expect I'll get it again too. Because none of that means much if you are subjected to certain work/life environments. Teachers, prison guards, prisoners, nurses, restaurant workers, you name it... Yep, you're going to get exposed again. Your mask isn't going to protect you from 8-10 hours a day sharing air with people who have covid. And people will be contagious without knowing if they have it, too.  This site has too many privileged assholes who have the ability to work from home or get infinite amounts of isolation.

I'm not anti-mask before some jerkface makes that accusation. They aren't perfect though, or you'd be able to say everyone who gets covid even once "obviously doesn't give a fark and take recommended precautions." And math being what it is, some of the people who get it once, even if their odds of getting it at all are low, are going to get it again. Two dice can both come up ones, and any immunity granted by getting it only lasts a couple of months. This pandemic has gone on too long to pretend everyone can truly protect themselves. Far too many people who have indeed taken precautions have gotten covid.

Over a third of the population has had covid. If you think that it is entirely the plague rats you're wrong.

So, what is obvious to you is incredibly incorrect.
 
2022-01-27 4:26:12 AM  
Smackledorfer:

A structure fire burns everyone in the building, but we arrest arsonists because there's a moral difference between accidents and intentional action.

However we also arrest people for "depraved indifference" on similar moral grounds.
 
2022-01-27 4:47:24 AM  
We've known this since about July 2020 or so since researchers in the field, people actually educated to know what the fark they're talking about in this regard, stated that re-infection is absolutely possible since the bodies own immune response is insufficient to give any kind of lasting immunity. It has been pointed out every single farking time, but many people either just refuse to listen or actively try to shout it down.
 
2022-01-27 4:54:37 AM  

Smoking GNU: We've known this since about July 2020 or so since researchers in the field, people actually educated to know what the fark they're talking about in this regard, stated that re-infection is absolutely possible since the bodies own immune response is insufficient to give any kind of lasting immunity. It has been pointed out every single farking time, but many people either just refuse to listen or actively try to shout it down.


Technically vaccines are the body's own immune system at work.

Infection is just much less efficient. If you want natural immunity, get the vaccine.

If you don't want natural immunity, get the vaccine.

If you want to spread the virus, get the vaccine.

If you like cilantro, get the vaccine.

If you hate cilantro, get the vaccine.

Everybody get the vaccine!!
 
2022-01-27 4:56:22 AM  

leeksfromchichis: Smoking GNU: We've known this since about July 2020 or so since researchers in the field, people actually educated to know what the fark they're talking about in this regard, stated that re-infection is absolutely possible since the bodies own immune response is insufficient to give any kind of lasting immunity. It has been pointed out every single farking time, but many people either just refuse to listen or actively try to shout it down.

Technically vaccines are the body's own immune system at work.

Infection is just much less efficient. If you want natural immunity, get the vaccine.

If you don't want natural immunity, get the vaccine.

If you want to spread the virus, get the vaccine.

If you like cilantro, get the vaccine.

If you hate cilantro, get the vaccine.

Everybody get the vaccine!!


Yes, true. Should have worded that more accuratly.
 
2022-01-27 5:28:03 AM  
It's called God's Immunity now.
 
2022-01-27 6:52:24 AM  
I have heard several anti-vax plague rats expressing self-diagnosed early Covid cases, as in "I think I've already had it so I must be immune now."
 
2022-01-27 7:39:19 AM  
Just went to the dentist yesterday and my hygienist told me she had COVID for a second time around Christmas. I think she's a Trump but I don't discuss politics when someone has metal tools in my mouth. Generally I don't discuss anything when that's happening. But she sure likes to talk and ask questions.
 
2022-01-27 8:24:46 AM  

leeksfromchichis: Technically vaccines are the body's own immune system at work.


Vaccines are war games for the immune system.  You wouldn't want to send parade ground solders to the Front, now would you?  Although it's a great way to get rid of parade ground solders.
 
2022-01-27 8:25:31 AM  
Smackledorfer: ...  and any immunity granted by getting it only lasts a couple of months.

Please don't promote this misconception. And the misconception I mean is that "immunity" means that you can't get infected. That's not what immunity legitimately means.

Your immunity to a virus is a level of pre-programming of your immune system that prepares a multifaceted level of protection.

The simplistic one we see harped on again and again is the level of circulating antibodies that target a virus. If you get exposed to a dose of the virus, a horse race ensues. Will an appropriate number of antibodies bump into and bind to a virus particle to render it ineffective or drive its clearance from your system. The fancy antibodies are called neutralizing antibodies. In the SARS-CoV-2 case, these bind to the Spike protein in a way that blocks the ability of that protein to bind the ACE2 receptor and gain entry to a cell. Of course, each virus particle has multiple spike proteins so you need to have multiple antibodies bind to multiple spike proteins.

At the same time, antibodies and bind in less protective ways but still can gang up on a virus. Some cells of your immune system are on the hunt for things that have antibodies bound to them and in the case of virus particles with antibodies bound to them they will then eat and digest the virus.

So do these things happen before the virus can infect a cell and make more virus? Again, a horse race. The higher concentration of antibodies you have, the better chance you have of stopping a virus particle. But it is a roll of the dice. And it's a question of where the antibodies are. There are different types of antibodies that are present mostly in mucosal surfaces where the virus often first gains entry.

And then there's the question of dosing. Are you slammed with thousands or tens of virus particles? With a high enough dose, some virus particles get through and start reproducing.

Then there's a next horse race for antibodies. How soon do your memory B-cells detect that you've got some more virus in you of their particular flavor? Once they find some they go into over-drive and start replicating to produce cells that pump out high numbers of antibodies to try to better win those races with virus particles.

Then there's your circulating T-cells that help the B-cells get going (including making brand new antibody producing B-cells and those ready made memory B-cells) and the T-cells that know how to find and kill infected cells and so stop the production of new virus.

None of this is a simple wall that provides this cartoon 100% defense against a virus starting to make time in your body. That type of immunity is a myth.

What's been changing with covid19 is that the variants are apparently quite variable in how quickly they reproduce once they gain an infection toe-hold in you, how they behave in terms of "shedding" which roughly drives how many virus particles a new 'victim' gets dosed with, and some differences that render some antibodies less effective.

Yes, it's complicated, and it's changing --- faster than we can fully characterize each variant and its interactions with the evolving levels of immunity that comes from either vaccination, prior infection, or both.

But the main point here is, don't think of immunity as some magic barrier that is on or off. It's not true. And it doesn't help us think about how to respond.

For example, masks may not block all virus particles but if they simply reduce the number of virus particles that you breath in they give your immune system a better chance to get ahead of a potential infection, or at least keep it in check until your pre-primed defenses engage their warp engines. Same with just keep a bit more distance or limiting the time you're in a dangerous environment. Reduce the load of virus you are exposed to.
 
2022-01-27 8:35:07 AM  
64.media.tumblr.comView Full Size
 
2022-01-27 8:49:23 AM  

TwowheelinTim: It seems obvious to me the people who have gotten it multiple times just don't give a f*ck and are not taking recommended precautions.

Thanks plague rats.


Or that covid is a highly contagious disease and easy to catch despite precautions.
 
2022-01-27 8:55:08 AM  

wademh: or example, masks may not block all virus particles but if they simply reduce the number of virus particles that you breath in they give your immune system a better chance to get ahead of a potential infection, or at least keep it in check until your pre-primed defenses engage their warp engines. Same with just keep a bit more distance or limiting the time you're in a dangerous environment. Reduce the load of virus you are exposed to.


THIS RIGHT HERE is why I love fark. For all it's bullshiat, every once in a while, somebody comes along and gives the best damn explanation of the human immune system that I've ever seen. Stuff that I've been wondering about for over a year now, and kind of understood from putting the bits and pieces together, but never really understood coherently enough to do anything with.

Thank you.
 
2022-01-27 8:58:28 AM  
Yeah, that worked great for Measles, Smallpox, Polio etcetera.

Oh wait. They had VACCINATIONS.

Get your shots, you dumb farks and turn off Fox News.
 
2022-01-27 9:03:33 AM  

maxheck: Yeah, that worked great for Measles, Smallpox, Polio etcetera.

Oh wait. They had VACCINATIONS.

Get your shots, you dumb farks and turn off Fox News.


The last time "Herd Immunity" worked, it killed of 1/3 of the human population. That would be the Black Plague.
 
2022-01-27 9:08:18 AM  

leeksfromchichis: Smoking GNU: We've known this since about July 2020 or so since researchers in the field, people actually educated to know what the fark they're talking about in this regard, stated that re-infection is absolutely possible since the bodies own immune response is insufficient to give any kind of lasting immunity. It has been pointed out every single farking time, but many people either just refuse to listen or actively try to shout it down.

Technically vaccines are the body's own immune system at work.

Infection is just much less efficient. If you want natural immunity, get the vaccine.

If you don't want natural immunity, get the vaccine.

If you want to spread the virus, get the vaccine.

If you like cilantro, get the vaccine.

If you hate cilantro, get the vaccine.

Everybody get the vaccine!!


If I'm ambivalent toward cilantro, do I get the vaccine twice?
 
2022-01-27 9:13:34 AM  

Ambitwistor: leeksfromchichis: Smoking GNU: We've known this since about July 2020 or so since researchers in the field, people actually educated to know what the fark they're talking about in this regard, stated that re-infection is absolutely possible since the bodies own immune response is insufficient to give any kind of lasting immunity. It has been pointed out every single farking time, but many people either just refuse to listen or actively try to shout it down.

Technically vaccines are the body's own immune system at work.

Infection is just much less efficient. If you want natural immunity, get the vaccine.

If you don't want natural immunity, get the vaccine.

If you want to spread the virus, get the vaccine.

If you like cilantro, get the vaccine.

If you hate cilantro, get the vaccine.

Everybody get the vaccine!!

If I'm ambivalent toward cilantro, do I get the vaccine twice?


Probably not. Cilantro sucks.

/ one of the genetic 50% where cilantro tastes like soap.
 
2022-01-27 9:16:24 AM  
Co-worker has had ALL THREE covid variants. He didn't get vaccinated until after he and his entire family got omicron. I'm guessing HR at work told him he needed to get vaccinated or he'd lose his job. Because we have a vaccine mandate.
 
2022-01-27 9:17:05 AM  
We know this. We've known this since COVID 1.0. 

You're not permanently immune afterwards. Just like you can catch the flu every year.

There's a lot of magic 'thought' going around.
 
2022-01-27 9:29:31 AM  

Znuh: We know this. We've known this since COVID 1.0. 

You're not permanently immune afterwards. Just like you can catch the flu every year.

There's a lot of magic 'thought' going around.


Yeah, I got a "breakthrough" case not long after getting my booster.

You know what I didn't do? End up in the hospital. I was coughing a lot, but was otherwise functional. I wasn't one of those jerks overloading hospital systems.
 
2022-01-27 9:46:38 AM  

TwowheelinTim: It seems obvious to me the people who have gotten it multiple times just don't give a f*ck and are not taking recommended precautions.


I had a cold once. I will have one again. Who would have ever thought that a virus related to the common cold would cause something you could get more than once.

In fact, for people that paid attention to experts, they were very skeptical that there would be any kind of vaccine that actually worked, because in the past vaccines against coronaviruses have not worked well.

And here we are, trying to get a new vaccine for a variant, because the virus has mutated so much that even vaccinated people are getting it.

Here is how it is about to play out IRL:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/omicron-mild-covid-pandemic-reset/621207/

/hint, it's never going away and we can all expect to get it at some point or another, probably seasonally.

// Have not had it yet.
 
2022-01-27 9:48:01 AM  
Avoided until ~3 weeks ago, had Moderna vaccine and the booster.  Omicron doesn't care, like a Honey badger doesn't care...  there is a new variant that also supposedly doesn't care now, too...  but I didn't get Delta, and I didn't need to go to the hospital.  Friend was afraid of needles, was told to get the vaccine or lose her job, so she got her first jab...  2 weeks later got covid from a co-worker, the Delta variant.  Still ended up in the hospital, but the Dr. told her that if she hadn't had that first jab, she'd be dead.  It was just enough to get her some anti-bodied before the real thing hit her so hard.  She is still in, it's been 2 weeks there with oxygen and various cpap or bipap machines.

Yes, the vaccine helps, but it isn't perfect, nor does it work against all variants of Covid.  Not 100%.  Yes, I wear my mask most of the time, but I had thought I was "safe"... but I found out that "safer" isn't "safe", and I'm still fighting a cough 2 weeks after the fun.
 
2022-01-27 9:52:30 AM  
Vaccines are magic shields that literally block viruses from entering your body. Here is an image of one.

abc4.comView Full Size
 
2022-01-27 10:00:05 AM  

Znuh: We know this. We've known this since COVID 1.0. 

You're not permanently immune afterwards. Just like you can catch the flu every year.

There's a lot of magic 'thought' going around.


No, it's different than the flu. The various strains of the flu are far far more divergent than the various strains of SARS-CoV-2 that we've seen. With influenza A, you want to look at those numbers that come after the H and the N. They help identify very different strains. H is the hemagglutinin antigen and N is the neuraminidase antigen. There are 18 major variants of H and 11 major variants of N that can mix and match. That means almost 200 immunologically distinct strains. Even so, immunity gained from one hears H1N1 will only be partially effective when a new round of H1N1 rolls around again, somewhat like the drift from wild-type covid to Delta.

But part of the problem with covid is that it is just so damn infectious to begin with that even with what are normally pretty good levels of immune system protection, people are getting repeated exposures to high levels of virus, of a virus that is a pretty fast and effective replicator.

Ultimately, we're damn lucky that the earlier SARS wasn't as infectious because it had significantly greater morbidity and mortality.
 
2022-01-27 10:47:12 AM  

transporter_ii: TwowheelinTim: It seems obvious to me the people who have gotten it multiple times just don't give a f*ck and are not taking recommended precautions.

I had a cold once. I will have one again. Who would have ever thought that a virus related to the common cold would cause something you could get more than once.


Technically there are hundreds of "cold" viruses; many are not related to each other and they only share a name because they cause similar symptoms.  It's not necessarily the case that you're getting various strains of the same virus repeatedly (or that any of the colds you've had were coronaviruses ... only ~20% of colds are due to those).

The flu might be a better analogy, in terms of getting infected by different strains from year to year.
 
2022-01-27 11:42:32 AM  

Smoking GNU: We've known this since about July 2020 or so since researchers in the field, people actually educated to know what the fark they're talking about in this regard, stated that re-infection is absolutely possible since the bodies own immune response is insufficient to give any kind of lasting immunity. It has been pointed out every single farking time, but many people either just refuse to listen or actively try to shout it down.


We had confirmed reinfections of SARS-2 from South Korea by March of 2020, from the same strain even! Herd immunity to coronavirus through infection simply does not work; not even omicron is so fast and infectious to ensure that literally everyone on the planet gets it in the same timespan that we have neutralizing antibodies to resist further infection. For one, some people simply do not clear the virus as we see from long-term human incubation of alpha and ostentatiously omicron, and secondly it's absolutely false for omicron since it comes in three wildly different flavors which ensures we won't pass through the first wave without infection by another.

Eventually all three circulate freely and you get infected every month or two by one of them. Eventually all three form a viral swarm and it spreads like a true cold. You "get sick" and spread "it" while in public. You succumb to one of the strains in the swarm, opening you up to infection by the entire swarm as if by misdirection of the immune responses. Endemic covid in the human population is so much fun!

Znuh: We know this. We've known this since COVID 1.0. 

You're not permanently immune afterwards. Just like you can catch the flu every year.

There's a lot of magic 'thought' going around.


Precisely. SARS-2 hasn't done anything significantly different than SARS-1 as far as coronavirus disease progression is concerned, other than no bone necrosis (that we know of) and omicron spreading like a broken plasma conduit. (electrostatic repulsion as a method of diffusing into the air)
 
2022-01-27 11:43:31 AM  

wademh: Smackledorfer: ...  and any immunity granted by getting it only lasts a couple of months.

Please don't promote this misconception. And the misconception I mean is that "immunity" means that you can't get infected. That's not what immunity legitimately means.


So you agree the word immunity has a meaning, but assumed I intended the wrong one?

Strange, but ok. What if instead you assumed I meant what immunity legitimately means. It isn't like my post implied the incorrect usage.
 
2022-01-27 12:36:20 PM  

Smackledorfer: wademh: Smackledorfer: ...  and any immunity granted by getting it only lasts a couple of months.

Please don't promote this misconception. And the misconception I mean is that "immunity" means that you can't get infected. That's not what immunity legitimately means.

So you agree the word immunity has a meaning, but assumed I intended the wrong one?

Strange, but ok. What if instead you assumed I meant what immunity legitimately means. It isn't like my post implied the incorrect usage.


You added "it only lasts a couple of months". This implies an end. You didn't say it wanes or something else about diminishing effectiveness. The implication is that it's gone. Not so. What wanes is the concentration of circulating antibodies that provide the first wave of defense. But the populations of memory B and T cells remain and they spring into action rather quickly. This is why severe disease and hospitalizations remain significantly reduced even for people who don't get boosters.

Whether or not you personally harbored a misconception that immunity was some sort of toggle switch, it is an unfortunate common misconception. So I used your post as a foil to issue my screed. To the extent I choose a voice that directed it to you, consider it a stylistic thing and not something personal.
 
2022-01-27 1:25:34 PM  
Well, if you told me not to promote X and you agree I wasn't promoting X, then okie dokie.
 
2022-01-27 1:37:31 PM  

foo monkey: It's called God's Immunity now.


Because God isn't real either?
 
2022-01-27 3:25:22 PM  

Ambitwistor: leeksfromchichis: Smoking GNU: We've known this since about July 2020 or so since researchers in the field, people actually educated to know what the fark they're talking about in this regard, stated that re-infection is absolutely possible since the bodies own immune response is insufficient to give any kind of lasting immunity. It has been pointed out every single farking time, but many people either just refuse to listen or actively try to shout it down.

Technically vaccines are the body's own immune system at work.

Infection is just much less efficient. If you want natural immunity, get the vaccine.

If you don't want natural immunity, get the vaccine.

If you want to spread the virus, get the vaccine.

If you like cilantro, get the vaccine.

If you hate cilantro, get the vaccine.

Everybody get the vaccine!!

If I'm ambivalent toward cilantro, do I get the vaccine twice?


Thrice!
 
2022-01-27 5:16:54 PM  
 
2022-01-27 5:35:09 PM  

leeksfromchichis: Infection is just much less efficient. If you want natural immunity, get the vaccine.


Nope.

Previous infection and vaccines are basically equivalent, although depending on the variant they have switched places on which worked best.

Infection-induced immunity and vaccine-induced immunity are pretty similar. On the whole, studies found that the efficacy of infection-induced immunity was about the same as what you'd get from a two-dose mRNA vaccine, and sometimes higher.

The upside for vaccines is that vaccines are much, much, much, much safer.  The downside is that they are avoidable.

The upside for Omicron is that it is not avoidable unless you completely self isolate, so by the time we get past the Omicron waves, the vast majority of people should have immune systems that have previously been exposed to Covid.
 
2022-01-27 6:24:43 PM  

peterquince: wademh: or example, masks may not block all virus particles but if they simply reduce the number of virus particles that you breath in they give your immune system a better chance to get ahead of a potential infection, or at least keep it in check until your pre-primed defenses engage their warp engines. Same with just keep a bit more distance or limiting the time you're in a dangerous environment. Reduce the load of virus you are exposed to.

THIS RIGHT HERE is why I love fark. For all it's bullshiat, every once in a while, somebody comes along and gives the best damn explanation of the human immune system that I've ever seen. Stuff that I've been wondering about for over a year now, and kind of understood from putting the bits and pieces together, but never really understood coherently enough to do anything with.

Thank you.


Thank you @wademh I feel like I've been technically briefed by an expert. I have a new and more thorough understanding. As a 1st wave survivor, the questions I've had have largely been quelled.
 
2022-01-27 7:15:10 PM  
I have a friend who refuses to get vaccinated because the vaccines have "Leaky" spike protiens.

Hon, you didn't "Do your own research" You pulled a bit of conformation bias off of Facebook or Fox News.

Really sucks too, because we've been friends for over 20 years, and I love her to death, and having been through covid I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Certain politicians need to be beaten over the head for politicizing a health issue. Tucker Carlson and the random blonde mook on "Fox and Friends" are not health experts.
 
2022-01-28 12:06:07 PM  
So we are going to get wave after wave of 'killing mostly those who don't have their shots'?  i find it hard to oppose the virus' logic
 
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