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(WBAY Green Bay)   Wisconsin judge in mass-quitting injunction case decides at-will employment doesn't apply to peons   (wbay.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Injunction, Health care, Ascension Wisconsin, court action, comprehensive stroke care team, Health care provider, Thursday morning, majority of ThedaCare  
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3312 clicks; posted to Business » and Politics » on 22 Jan 2022 at 10:17 PM (16 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2022-01-22 6:35:11 PM  
Seriously WTF, that ruling is insane.

It isn't the court's business if employees moving to other positions is good for the community or not. Yes, ThedaCare itself could suffer immediate harm if the people leave for other jobs, but unless Ascension actually violated labor laws with these hires I don't see how any of that is the court's business either.

Pay better wages... and if your accreditation requires a certain staffing level have staff under contract.
 
2022-01-22 6:36:34 PM  
Did he give them a raise too?  I think I would be sick for the next few weeks if I was that group.
 
2022-01-22 6:49:32 PM  

SoundOfOneHandWanking: Did he give them a raise too?  I think I would be sick for the next few weeks if I was that group.


Yeah, I was unclear if Ascension was loaning them back at the new salary. Either way though, there could be any number of additional reasons why they left, including a hostile workplace.
 
2022-01-22 7:21:06 PM  
Hopefully not a single one shows up to Theda Clark and they take a temporary position with an agency that sends them to St. E. The judge needs to be reminded publicly by an appeals Court indentured servitude is unconstitutional
 
2022-01-22 8:41:33 PM  
"...or Cease the hiring of the individuals referenced until ThedaCare has hired adequate staff to replace the departing IRC team members."

No need to hire them; simply find some Independent Contractors or a brand new business that provides "temps."
 
2022-01-22 9:10:47 PM  
Does this strike anyone else as forced labor? How is this legal?
 
2022-01-22 9:23:55 PM  
I truly thought I was reading that wrong and was horrified when I realized I wasn't.
 
2022-01-22 10:18:17 PM  

Lsherm: Does this strike anyone else as forced labor? How is this legal?


I looked up Judge Mark McGinnis and it appears he has had a difficult time following laws and the Constitution before.
https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/local-news/report-on-truancy-court-determines-judge-mcginnis-behavior-as-abusive/
 
2022-01-22 10:24:21 PM  
Ascension does notpay well- if your organization has a mass migration because Ascension is paying markedly better it's time to review your pay scale. I got a $12 an hour raise for the same issue some 20 years ago when I was still a tech and Mayo was making off with the best my local market had to offer. Welcome to capitalism.
 
2022-01-22 10:28:59 PM  

Lsherm: Does this strike anyone else as forced labor? How is this legal?


If Reagan can force you to operate an airplane control tower or go to jail, this was a long time coming.
 
2022-01-22 10:32:22 PM  

AppleOptionEsc: Lsherm: Does this strike anyone else as forced labor? How is this legal?

If Reagan can force you to operate an airplane control tower or go to jail, this was a long time coming.


People who work for private hospitals aren't government employees. Air traffic controllers are. Public School Teachers are. Even the people who run the subway are public employees. But if you're working for a private hospital, you aren't a public employee.
 
2022-01-22 10:34:01 PM  
All I read there was another reason for folks to avoid healthcare careers, especially as first responders or emergency personnel - you could lose rights enjoyed by other Americans, simply because a judge sided with your employer and therefore told you that you're no longer allowed to work where you choose...

Yep, fark that.
 
2022-01-22 10:39:18 PM  

FormlessOne: All I read there was another reason for folks to avoid healthcare careers, especially as first responders or emergency personnel - you could lose rights enjoyed by other Americans, simply because a judge sided with your employer and therefore told you that you're no longer allowed to work where you choose...

Yep, fark that.


Capitalism will bring us everything that we were told was horrible under Communism.
 
2022-01-22 10:41:27 PM  
Are the judges there elected?
I'd be looking at his campaign bribes/contributions.
 
2022-01-22 10:45:03 PM  

Visual Howlaround Title Sequence: Capitalism will bring us everything that we were told was horrible under Communism.


Capitalism is fine if you allow competition, but health care does not follow any regular rules of economics. The rich will pay anything to stay alive so people charge exorbitant rates for health care because they can.

And don't get me started on the business sector in this country - we don't have capitalism, we have uncontrolled monopolism. You shouldn't be allowed to build a company as large as Amazon by selling under cost for decades with the eventual goal of putting all of your competitors out of business. That's not competition, that's monopoly-building.
 
2022-01-22 10:46:09 PM  
And finally we find out that capitalism was always just a charade.
 
2022-01-22 10:46:46 PM  
So you have the freedom to not wear a mask but you do not have the freedom to change jobs.
 
2022-01-22 10:46:55 PM  
I'd say something about the 13th Amendment, but we aren't allowed to talk about that any more in history class.
 
2022-01-22 11:03:54 PM  
"Make available to ThedaCare one invasive radiology technician and one registered nurse of the individuals resigning their employment with ThedaCare to join Ascension, with their support to include on-call responsibilities or; Cease the hiring of the individuals referenced until ThedaCare has hired adequate staff to replace the departing IRC team members."

That second option (cease the hiring) is what ThedaCare wanted.

What the judge is actually giving them is: Ascension hires away seven of their employees, and then loans two back to them (presumably billing for their time at market rate). For fun, they should pick the snarkiest two.

The judge's record doesn't exactly inspire confidence, but my guess is that as an elected official he *really* doesn't want to be the scapegoat when locals die because ThedaCare doesn't have capacity, so he's trying to thread a needle here.

/pity the poor bastard who has to somehow recruit for these positions knowing this is the first farking thing any potential hire sees when they google ThedaCare
 
2022-01-22 11:15:45 PM  

AppleOptionEsc: Lsherm: Does this strike anyone else as forced labor? How is this legal?

If Reagan can force you to operate an airplane control tower or go to jail, this was a long time coming.


No, he didn't....he said go back to work or be permanently fired.

They didn't and they were.
 
2022-01-22 11:16:33 PM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: "Make available to ThedaCare one invasive radiology technician and one registered nurse of the individuals resigning their employment with ThedaCare to join Ascension, with their support to include on-call responsibilities or; Cease the hiring of the individuals referenced until ThedaCare has hired adequate staff to replace the departing IRC team members."

That second option (cease the hiring) is what ThedaCare wanted.

What the judge is actually giving them is: Ascension hires away seven of their employees, and then loans two back to them (presumably billing for their time at market rate). For fun, they should pick the snarkiest two.

The judge's record doesn't exactly inspire confidence, but my guess is that as an elected official he *really* doesn't want to be the scapegoat when locals die because ThedaCare doesn't have capacity, so he's trying to thread a needle here.

/pity the poor bastard who has to somehow recruit for these positions knowing this is the first farking thing any potential hire sees when they google ThedaCare


If ascension wanted to make a point and get more employees they would tell the 7 they are on paid mental health days until litigation is over and provide nothing to Theda care. A judicial order requiring working at a location against the will of the person is indentured servitude and barred by the 13th amendment of the US Constitution.
 
2022-01-22 11:25:21 PM  
I can see denying people the right to take a job at another company if it's an emergency.

And, the emergency is that ThedaCare's CEO might lose a bonus because they won't make as much money.
 
2022-01-22 11:38:02 PM  
As many have pointed out before, it's capitalism when things work in favor of the corporations, but as soon as they aren't, it's socialism or communism.

Remember: corporations are people. Ones that matter a lot more to the American system than the rest of us.
 
2022-01-23 12:15:48 AM  

meathome: As many have pointed out before, it's capitalism when things work in favor of the corporations, but as soon as they aren't, it's socialism or communism.

Remember: corporations are people. Ones that matter a lot more to the American system than the rest of us.


Yeah but we get to vote on who tells us when and how we're going to get ass****ed!
 
2022-01-23 12:32:05 AM  
No, no, you don't get it. It's employment at OUR will, not at YOUR will.

Sincerely,
Management
 
2022-01-23 12:49:19 AM  
And the US gets another step closer to re-instating legal slavery on the population in general.
 
2022-01-23 1:01:10 AM  
So instead of providing a counter offer, they went to the court to prevent them from leaving....
And obviously the amount offered at the other provider was vastly more than what they were currently making, I mean you wouldn't get the entire team to apply otherwise...

What if they all just quit?  Can they get arrested for defying the judges orders at that point?
 
2022-01-23 1:06:24 AM  

eurotrader: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: "Make available to ThedaCare one invasive radiology technician and one registered nurse of the individuals resigning their employment with ThedaCare to join Ascension, with their support to include on-call responsibilities or; Cease the hiring of the individuals referenced until ThedaCare has hired adequate staff to replace the departing IRC team members."

That second option (cease the hiring) is what ThedaCare wanted.

What the judge is actually giving them is: Ascension hires away seven of their employees, and then loans two back to them (presumably billing for their time at market rate). For fun, they should pick the snarkiest two.

The judge's record doesn't exactly inspire confidence, but my guess is that as an elected official he *really* doesn't want to be the scapegoat when locals die because ThedaCare doesn't have capacity, so he's trying to thread a needle here.

/pity the poor bastard who has to somehow recruit for these positions knowing this is the first farking thing any potential hire sees when they google ThedaCare

If ascension wanted to make a point and get more employees they would tell the 7 they are on paid mental health days until litigation is over and provide nothing to Theda care. A judicial order requiring working at a location against the will of the person is indentured servitude and barred by the 13th amendment of the US Constitution.


The order here is directed to Ascension, not the employees. Ascension is being told if it hires them before ThedaCare gets its shiat together then two of them must be seconded to ThedaCare. The employees are free to refuse; Ascension just won't hire them (immediately) in that case.

For Ascension's part, presumably they're not done litigating the matter, but in the meantime I would think they'd just take their 5/7 of a win and enjoy billing ThedaCare out the ass for the other 2/7.
 
2022-01-23 1:18:44 AM  
That's hilarious because Ascension is known for having shiat pay.

/except that they're paying nursing students at the Ascension hospital here $30 an hour to be Nurse Techs.
//Licensed nursing staff don't even make that much per hour
 
2022-01-23 1:19:20 AM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: The judge's record doesn't exactly inspire confidence, but my guess is that as an elected official he *really* doesn't want to be the scapegoat when locals die because ThedaCare doesn't have capacity, so he's trying to thread a needle here.


There's no needle to thread.  No laws were broken, either criminal or civil, by the hospital.  This isn't a judicial issue, except for the 13th amendment the judge just violated.
 
2022-01-23 1:28:16 AM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: eurotrader: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: "Make available to ThedaCare one invasive radiology technician and one registered nurse of the individuals resigning their employment with ThedaCare to join Ascension, with their support to include on-call responsibilities or; Cease the hiring of the individuals referenced until ThedaCare has hired adequate staff to replace the departing IRC team members."

That second option (cease the hiring) is what ThedaCare wanted.

What the judge is actually giving them is: Ascension hires away seven of their employees, and then loans two back to them (presumably billing for their time at market rate). For fun, they should pick the snarkiest two.

The judge's record doesn't exactly inspire confidence, but my guess is that as an elected official he *really* doesn't want to be the scapegoat when locals die because ThedaCare doesn't have capacity, so he's trying to thread a needle here.

/pity the poor bastard who has to somehow recruit for these positions knowing this is the first farking thing any potential hire sees when they google ThedaCare

If ascension wanted to make a point and get more employees they would tell the 7 they are on paid mental health days until litigation is over and provide nothing to Theda care. A judicial order requiring working at a location against the will of the person is indentured servitude and barred by the 13th amendment of the US Constitution.

The order here is directed to Ascension, not the employees. Ascension is being told if it hires them before ThedaCare gets its shiat together then two of them must be seconded to ThedaCare. The employees are free to refuse; Ascension just won't hire them (immediately) in that case.

For Ascension's part, presumably they're not done litigating the matter, but in the meantime I would think they'd just take their 5/7 of a win and enjoy billing ThedaCare out the ass for the other 2/7.


Telling  at will employees  they have to work at a location ordered by a judge or not being employed by another company is repugnant and smacks of a violation of US Constitutional rights. If judges are allowed to order where a person works or be unemployed it is indentured servitude and if not condemned the next republican judge is going to order actual slavery to companies.
 
2022-01-23 1:38:59 AM  
Jimmy John's, the poor man's Subway, made it's peons sign a non-compete agreement so that they couldnt make sandwiches for anyone else if they left the company. Not even a supermarket deli.

"Jimmy John's 'Oppressive' Noncompete Agreement Survives Court Challenge"

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/jimmy-johns-noncompete-agreement_n_7042112
 
2022-01-23 1:54:09 AM  

Smoking GNU: And the US gets another step closer to re-instating legal slavery on the population in general.


Legal slavery is what was left after actual slavery was abolished.

We're still just trying to get to actual human rights.
 
2022-01-23 2:06:58 AM  

Bukharin: Jimmy John's, the poor man's Subway, made it's peons sign a non-compete agreement so that they couldnt make sandwiches for anyone else if they left the company. Not even a supermarket deli.

"Jimmy John's 'Oppressive' Noncompete Agreement Survives Court Challenge"

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/jimmy-johns-noncompete-agreement_n_7042112


It seems the dismissal was procedural in that case, with the court saying the plaintiffs lacked standing because the NCA hadn't actually been enforced against them yet.

For generic non-management type personnel, an NCA of that scope would never be enforced by a court. Probably not even against a store manager.
 
2022-01-23 2:15:10 AM  
The competing hospital chain scalping the entire critical stroke care team and then claiming that this was all just a coincidence is certainly not sketchy in the slightest though.
 
2022-01-23 2:49:26 AM  

MrSplifferton: So instead of providing a counter offer, they went to the court to prevent them from leaving....
And obviously the amount offered at the other provider was vastly more than what they were currently making, I mean you wouldn't get the entire team to apply otherwise...

What if they all just quit?  Can they get arrested for defying the judges orders at that point?


The employees can choose not to work for ThedaCare at any time. The judge is saying that Ascension can't hire them for now, or that if they do, they have to loan a couple back to Theda for a while. Theda's argument seems to be that Ascension actively went after their employees specifically in an effort to peel them away from a competitor. That still shouldn't matter unless there are enforceable contracts involved somewhere, but the judge ruled that it does.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if some of the employees promptly turned to a third company to be hired into instead; would Theda sue that company too?
 
2022-01-23 2:54:13 AM  

parrellel: The competing hospital chain scalping the entire critical stroke care team and then claiming that this was all just a coincidence is certainly not sketchy in the slightest though.


I don't know... It's well-known that health providers are having significant trouble hiring and retaining staff at the moment, for obvious reasons. If Theda was/is paying peanuts and one person noticed the competitor was paying considerably more, then shared that information with co-workers a la "Hey guys! This company is paying way better than the one we're working for! Let's all go over there!", that's eminently believable.  Especially with Ascension's contention that Theda had the chance to match the offer.
 
2022-01-23 3:02:16 AM  

Visual Howlaround Title Sequence: FormlessOne: All I read there was another reason for folks to avoid healthcare careers, especially as first responders or emergency personnel - you could lose rights enjoyed by other Americans, simply because a judge sided with your employer and therefore told you that you're no longer allowed to work where you choose...

Yep, fark that.

Capitalism will bring us everything that we were told was horrible under Communism.


When ever someone goes on about how horrible communism is, agree (because they're right about it being horrible) and then ask: Then how unspeakably awful must unrestrained capitalism be that people around the world heard about communism and decided it would be an improvement?
 
2022-01-23 3:43:37 AM  

wxboy: parrellel: The competing hospital chain scalping the entire critical stroke care team and then claiming that this was all just a coincidence is certainly not sketchy in the slightest though.

I don't know... It's well-known that health providers are having significant trouble hiring and retaining staff at the moment, for obvious reasons. If Theda was/is paying peanuts and one person noticed the competitor was paying considerably more, then shared that information with co-workers a la "Hey guys! This company is paying way better than the one we're working for! Let's all go over there!", that's eminently believable.  Especially with Ascension's contention that Theda had the chance to match the offer.


Also, i've been seeing several comments in these threads over the past few days that Ascension is well known for having crap pay themselves, so if that's the case just think about how garbage the pay was at Theda.
 
2022-01-23 4:00:14 AM  

Spermbot: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: The judge's record doesn't exactly inspire confidence, but my guess is that as an elected official he *really* doesn't want to be the scapegoat when locals die because ThedaCare doesn't have capacity, so he's trying to thread a needle here.

There's no needle to thread.  No laws were broken, either criminal or civil, by the hospital.  This isn't a judicial issue, except for the 13th amendment the judge just violated.


eurotrader: Telling  at will employees  they have to work at a location ordered by a judge or not being employed by another company is repugnant and smacks of a violation of US Constitutional rights. If judges are allowed to order where a person works or be unemployed it is indentured servitude and if not condemned the next republican judge is going to order actual slavery to companies.


To be clear, from what I know I don't think the injunction should've been granted, and didn't expect it to be, because it seems unlikely that this meets the standard for a temporary injunction. And even if these employees had signed non-compete or anti-raiding agreements it seems unlikely that they'd be enforceable in this situation.

Also, though, no one is being OMG ENSLAVED just because a court tells a company in a highly-regulated industry to temporarily hold off on hiring certain people whose "poaching" is (one assumes) alleged to be some kind of unfair competitive practice. The idea of a temporary injunction is to let the judge freeze everything where it is for a minute so nothing gets irreparably farked up before he deals with the merits of the case. It doesn't mean that these employees are condemned to ThedaCare's dungeon or anything.
 
2022-01-23 5:47:31 AM  

cheap_thoughts: That's hilarious because Ascension is known for having shiat pay.

/except that they're paying nursing students at the Ascension hospital here $30 an hour to be Nurse Techs.
//Licensed nursing staff don't even make that much per hour


Travel to the competition about 20 minutes south on 41, I got a $7/hr raise going there 6 years ago (and raises keep increasing more than other places)
 
2022-01-23 5:48:14 AM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: but my guess is that as an elected official he *really* doesn't want to be the scapegoat when locals die because ThedaCare doesn't have capacity


Not that anyone reads the judicial balloting materials
 
2022-01-23 7:01:54 AM  

wxboy: parrellel: The competing hospital chain scalping the entire critical stroke care team and then claiming that this was all just a coincidence is certainly not sketchy in the slightest though.

I don't know... It's well-known that health providers are having significant trouble hiring and retaining staff at the moment, for obvious reasons. If Theda was/is paying peanuts and one person noticed the competitor was paying considerably more, then shared that information with co-workers a la "Hey guys! This company is paying way better than the one we're working for! Let's all go over there!", that's eminently believable.  Especially with Ascension's contention that Theda had the chance to match the offer.


They had a chance to match the offer

But specifically didnt.

Then get to sue people into slavery.

God, I love this f*cking country.
 
2022-01-23 7:02:20 AM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Spermbot: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: The judge's record doesn't exactly inspire confidence, but my guess is that as an elected official he *really* doesn't want to be the scapegoat when locals die because ThedaCare doesn't have capacity, so he's trying to thread a needle here.

There's no needle to thread.  No laws were broken, either criminal or civil, by the hospital.  This isn't a judicial issue, except for the 13th amendment the judge just violated.

eurotrader: Telling  at will employees  they have to work at a location ordered by a judge or not being employed by another company is repugnant and smacks of a violation of US Constitutional rights. If judges are allowed to order where a person works or be unemployed it is indentured servitude and if not condemned the next republican judge is going to order actual slavery to companies.

To be clear, from what I know I don't think the injunction should've been granted, and didn't expect it to be, because it seems unlikely that this meets the standard for a temporary injunction. And even if these employees had signed non-compete or anti-raiding agreements it seems unlikely that they'd be enforceable in this situation.

Also, though, no one is being OMG ENSLAVED just because a court tells a company in a highly-regulated industry to temporarily hold off on hiring certain people whose "poaching" is (one assumes) alleged to be some kind of unfair competitive practice. The idea of a temporary injunction is to let the judge freeze everything where it is for a minute so nothing gets irreparably farked up before he deals with the merits of the case. It doesn't mean that these employees are condemned to ThedaCare's dungeon or anything.


The problem is that while it is a highly regulated industry, the judge doesn't regulate them and the agencies that do are not involved AT ALL.

If I was one of the people that were loaned, I would clock in and proceed to play on my phone for the duration of the shift.

If judges are elected in that area (which I think is absurd that n general), the opponent should already be working on how this judge is making corrupt rulings.
 
2022-01-23 7:34:19 AM  

Bajtaur: Seriously WTF, that ruling is insane.

It isn't the court's business if employees moving to other positions is good for the community or not. Yes, ThedaCare itself could suffer immediate harm if the people leave for other jobs, but unless Ascension actually violated labor laws with these hires I don't see how any of that is the court's business either.

Pay better wages... and if your accreditation requires a certain staffing level have staff under contract.


Nice to know we workers can be compelled to work for less wages if our current employers have good lawyers.
I wonder if their employer can be sued for violating their work contract?
Their current employer should match all offers plus some to avoid things going very badly tomorrow.  One wonders if the money spent on the lawsuit would have been better used to retain or attract new talent.  Oh well, got to make the wealthy a little more wealthy right?
 
2022-01-23 8:09:49 AM  
These aren't idiots. They're not going to work at the job they quit because an idiot judge said so.
 
2022-01-23 8:12:38 AM  
If the Judge's point is that ThedaCare is providing some sort of service that the absence of which would endanger the community...maybe a private company shouldn't be in that position, eh?  Is there some sort of requirement that a community have that service?  Some legal requirement?

/Employees should all quit Theda and head on over to a temp agency. Then they can temp-to-hire at Ascension and not be working forAscension.
//From Minnesota: At least we're not Wisconsin
 
2022-01-23 8:26:15 AM  

MrSplifferton: So instead of providing a counter offer, they went to the court to prevent them from leaving....
And obviously the amount offered at the other provider was vastly more than what they were currently making, I mean you wouldn't get the entire team to apply otherwise...

What if they all just quit?  Can they get arrested for defying the judges orders at that point?


The stupidest part is they're likely paying the lawyers involved more than raising salaries would have cost.
 
2022-01-23 8:43:39 AM  
The thing is, this isn't a voluntary acknowledgement of, say, a non-compete clause in an employment agreement. There was nothing in their agreement, as far as I can tell from the limited info available, that would prevent them from leaving their current employer & choosing to work for whomever they chose.

This was imposed by a court, after the fact, at the request of their current employer because the current employer was terrified that they would lose accreditation (and, therefore, money) should they be without competent staff - staff that was apparently leaving on their own to seek employment elsewhere, and (some of) who found work with their current employer's perceived competitor.

This is, frankly, bullshiat.
 
2022-01-23 9:05:46 AM  

meathome: As many have pointed out before, it's capitalism when things work in favor of the corporations, but as soon as they aren't, it's socialism or communism.

Remember: corporations are people. Ones that matter a lot more to the American system than the rest of us.


Capitalism: Protect and focus on the needs of capital (money).

Socialism: Protect and focus on the needs of society (people).

I know we pretend they mean other things, but it's kinda in the words themselves.
 
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