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(The Verge)   Eshoo says "The surveillance advertising business model is broken." Big Tech, "God bless you"   (theverge.com) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Advertising, Google, Contextual advertising, Bill Clinton, Federal Trade Commission, Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen, Banning Surveillance Advertising Act, new bill  
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1138 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Jan 2022 at 4:00 PM (17 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



33 Comments     (+0 »)
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2022-01-19 11:24:21 AM  
I think you're going to need a much larger pile of privacy legislation to make that work. Otherwise, the appeal on "free speech" grounds will prevail and since those companies have all the money, they'll certainly be allowed to do what they want.

The first amendment really puts a wrinkle in a lot of those types of efforts. You're still required to buy a permit to protest in a designated area a mile from the event though.
 
2022-01-19 2:14:27 PM  
To be fair,
Facebook could add a form requiring you to sign over your first-born as a volcano sacrifice to sign up,
and I swear 50% of America would start the decision-making process with "Well, I don't plan on having kids anyway..."
 
2022-01-19 4:10:42 PM  

Somaticasual: To be fair,
Facebook could add a form requiring you to sign over your first-born as a volcano sacrifice to sign up,
and I swear 50% of America would start the decision-making process with "Well, I don't plan on having kids anyway..."


It's more likely they'll never read it in the first place.
 
2022-01-19 4:13:14 PM  
Literally everything about the internet was built around this.  This was something that was proudly shouted to the rafters at the internet's startup. People applauded targeted advertising.

Truly a fickle world we live in. This is a minor nothing when I've gotten 5+ notices from brick and mortar businesses that my real info identifying and credit info may have been stolen due to data breaches. You know, the real "evil data collection".

And, trust me, credit and banking institutions have been collecting the same data for as long if not longer than big tech.  All of your purchase history, transactions, addresses, public filings, all stored.

If government wanted to stop the real shiat, they'd go after the unregulated internet public records companies, Spokeo and the like, that gather all your public data and sell it to anyone who's buying.
 
2022-01-19 4:14:26 PM  

Somaticasual: To be fair,
Facebook could add a form requiring you to sign over your first-born as a volcano sacrifice to sign up,
and I swear 50% of America would start the decision-making process with "Well, I don't plan on having kids anyway..."


Maybe we need a law limiting what can go into these TsOS, then. Because, yeah, people will agree to anything, when the other choice is "you never get to use this product/service ever again." Those agreements are indirectly coercive.
 
2022-01-19 4:19:44 PM  
Gezheundteit, subby
 
2022-01-19 4:19:50 PM  
And collusory (is that a word)? If everyone's TsOS contain the same sh*tty things we have to agree to, at some point it feels like that crosses into anti-trust territory.
 
2022-01-19 4:20:37 PM  

austerity101: Somaticasual: To be fair,
Facebook could add a form requiring you to sign over your first-born as a volcano sacrifice to sign up,
and I swear 50% of America would start the decision-making process with "Well, I don't plan on having kids anyway..."

Maybe we need a law limiting what can go into these TsOS, then. Because, yeah, people will agree to anything, when the other choice is "you never get to use this product/service ever again." Those agreements are indirectly coercive.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2022-01-19 4:21:45 PM  

austerity101: Somaticasual: To be fair,
Facebook could add a form requiring you to sign over your first-born as a volcano sacrifice to sign up,
and I swear 50% of America would start the decision-making process with "Well, I don't plan on having kids anyway..."

Maybe we need a law limiting what can go into these TsOS, then. Because, yeah, people will agree to anything, when the other choice is "you never get to use this product/service ever again." Those agreements are indirectly coercive.


They could do that shiatty checklist that websites do now that EU data laws went into effect. What can they can collect and what can they not collect.

But here's a middleground. We can put big tech under the FCRA. Once a year people can request a free report and the option to dispute collected information.
 
2022-01-19 4:23:12 PM  

nocturn: This was something that was proudly shouted to the rafters at the internet's startup. People applauded targeted advertising.


I remember being a kid doing web design back in the early days.  Trying to convince people they needed a web site because the Yellow Pages were doomed.

My vision was a passive Internet, where if I wanted to know something I could search for it.  I never even dreamed about the possibility that the Internet would search me back, and do so effectively enough that it could become a profitable business model.
 
2022-01-19 4:24:24 PM  
I don't know about you, but I'd much rather see ads for things I actually am interested in.

And as a small business owner I depend on online advertising to make a living.  Targeting ads at people who actually want my products makes more sense than putting ads in front of people who don't care.

I've never understood the objection to this- when you buy advertising you don't have any access to the nefarious doomsday scenarios privacy advocates describe; it just targets people similar to those who've bought previously using a black box algorithm.

If we actually get rid of online advertising the alternative is to only use subscription based content.  I already subscribe to several different content-providers, but we obviously can't pay for every single damn thing we read.
 
2022-01-19 4:27:20 PM  

czei: And as a small business owner I depend on online advertising to make a living.


It's true. Small businesses didn't exist until the year 2000.
 
2022-01-19 4:27:28 PM  

czei: And as a small business owner I depend on online advertising to make a living. Targeting ads at people who actually want my products makes more sense than putting ads in front of people who don't care.


I dunno... how about a model where instead of forcing advertising in front of my face, people focus on high ranking relevant search results including not obscuring their geographical location, and when I want something I'll search for it?

Then we can talk about things like local and regional search engines.

Yes, I know, it's not going to happen.  That's why I have ad blockers and don't lower them for anyone.
 
2022-01-19 4:43:23 PM  
I think I'd be happy if they'd just pretend to not be listening to me while I'm at home.
 
2022-01-19 4:50:27 PM  
Please no. I much prefer ads targeted at me than someone else. I haven't seen an ad for tampons in years and would like to keep it that way.
 
2022-01-19 4:51:05 PM  
1. I see massive first amendment issues here.

2. Even if not, seeing ads targets towards what I am interested in beats seeing ads for the completely wrong demographic.  I don't think czei and myself are the only ones who think this way.

3. Everybody farking sucks at this.  The only real targeted ads that seem accurate I ever see are if I go to an Amazon page for x I tend to see ads for that exact item for the next week.  But a lot of the time I see ads that have nothing to do with my interests.  Hell, I semi-frequently see ads in languages I don't farking speak!!!I'm on an English language website.  My IP is based in the US.  My browser and operating system are set for American English.  So why I am seeing ads in Chinese???  If they can't even get the language right, then they clearly suck at targeting me.
 
2022-01-19 5:01:11 PM  
Targeted advertising is the least evil thing big tech does.

Real world example: I was shopping for a tent last summer. I really couldn't find anything I liked. Mostly because tents can be a pain in the ass to setup and tear down. Along comes an ad for Gazelle tents. I spent a little more than I planned on but it's a great farking tent. Sets up in 90 seconds and tears down in about the same.
 
2022-01-19 5:19:50 PM  

nocturn: Literally everything about the internet was built around this.  This was something that was proudly shouted to the rafters at the internet's startup. People applauded targeted advertising.

Truly a fickle world we live in. This is a minor nothing when I've gotten 5+ notices from brick and mortar businesses that my real info identifying and credit info may have been stolen due to data breaches. You know, the real "evil data collection".

And, trust me, credit and banking institutions have been collecting the same data for as long if not longer than big tech.  All of your purchase history, transactions, addresses, public filings, all stored.

If government wanted to stop the real shiat, they'd go after the unregulated internet public records companies, Spokeo and the like, that gather all your public data and sell it to anyone who's buying.


It goes back pretty far. The targeted information that American Airlines gained from launching the travel advisor flight database let them outcompete others by having more insight to demand than anyone else.
 
2022-01-19 5:22:47 PM  
Good.

If you only see that which you have responded to in the past, the planet becomes a dull and gray place that looks just like your reflection.

Fine for furniture, but it's terrible for things like music, art, and politics.
 
2022-01-19 5:36:09 PM  

Unsung_Hero: I dunno... how about a model where instead of forcing advertising in front of my face, people focus on high ranking relevant search results including not obscuring their geographical location, and when I want something I'll search for it?


My business only buys ads that show up if you search for *exactly* what I'm selling AND your demographic is similar to people who've purchased green widgets from me in the past.  If you search for "buy green widget" and see an ad for green widgets I fail to see the problem.
 
2022-01-19 5:48:47 PM  
A fun thing to do is turn off your advertising ID on your phone and surf Twitter or YouTube. You get an idea of what kinds of things are in the "Desperately hoping anything sticks to the wall" tier of advertising. Mostly pharma, movies, TV shows, financial "seminars", and crypto crypto crypto!!!

Oh, and every now and then there'll be an ad taken out by one dude with a really specific gripe who thinks buying up internet ad space is worth the money. Those I always click through because it's usually some genuine anger at something mundane as fark.
 
2022-01-19 6:13:04 PM  

czei: it just targets people similar to those who've bought previously using a ***black box algorithm***.


Found the problem.
 
2022-01-19 6:15:33 PM  
Much of my Farcebook feed is RWNJs complaining on Farcebook about how Farcebook censors RWNJs. This speaks about as well to Farcebook's alleged censorship as to Farcebook's targeting of advertising.
 
2022-01-19 8:01:58 PM  
I think shutting down the targeted advertising is a good idea. It's the financial end-game for most of data harvesting. It won't end the practice, but it will deal a significant crippling blow to the data harvesting ecosystem.

And while marketing for physical products seems benign, it's worth keeping in mind that this will also affect (and is arguably aimed at) political advertising and targeted ideological propaganda, which can be much more harmful.

Regional and contextual advertisments will still be okay. If you're browsing a site that reviews outdoor goods, you'll still see ads for hiking boots. If you're looking at Lowe's website, you'll still see ads for lawnmowers and washing machines.

I don't see why this isn't specific enough for people. I don't know why every website I ever visit should serve useless targeted ads trying to sell me a mattress after I just bought one. Regional and contextual is plenty.
 
2022-01-19 8:17:02 PM  
I fail to see the issue with this kind of targetted advertising. Advertising itself is annoying, yes. As are adds for things I already bought. But if it can help me find something I do need or want, and can allow businesses get better value for their advertising dollar, then it's all good.

Are they trying to regulate what data they keep regarding my web browsing? Is Fark not gonna be allowed to remember what the last post I saw was? Or that I posted this at all? (that last might be a good idea).

Amazon gonna have to forget what items I looked at but didn't buy?

It'd be so hard to regulate if it's just the information tracking that they're targetting. Not seeing the ads doesn't mean nothings being tracked.

If they want to outlaw annoying things, lets start with autoplaying videos. I don't need some idjit reading their article to me.
 
2022-01-19 8:20:34 PM  
Or, and this may be a crazy thing to throw out, but don't go out in public and tell strangers everything about yourself if you don't want them to know it, and also STFU about your "right to privacy" in pubic spaces?
 
2022-01-19 8:27:44 PM  

edmo: I think you're going to need a much larger pile of privacy legislation to make that work. Otherwise, the appeal on "free speech" grounds will prevail and since those companies have all the money, they'll certainly be allowed to do what they want.

The first amendment really puts a wrinkle in a lot of those types of efforts. You're still required to buy a permit to protest in a designated area a mile from the event though.


Next Up:  Republicans:  "Hmm. All that legislation allowing counter-protestors to basically mow down leftist protestors with their vehicles with complete impunity isn't stopping enough protests.  Better up the fees for those permits to requiring total indeminity insurance for any potential riot damage so each one costs 8 figures.  That'll do it!"
 
2022-01-19 8:28:46 PM  

emtwo: I think shutting down the targeted advertising is a good idea. It's the financial end-game for most of data harvesting. It won't end the practice, but it will deal a significant crippling blow to the data harvesting ecosystem.

And while marketing for physical products seems benign, it's worth keeping in mind that this will also affect (and is arguably aimed at) political advertising and targeted ideological propaganda, which can be much more harmful.

Regional and contextual advertisments will still be okay. If you're browsing a site that reviews outdoor goods, you'll still see ads for hiking boots. If you're looking at Lowe's website, you'll still see ads for lawnmowers and washing machines.

I don't see why this isn't specific enough for people. I don't know why every website I ever visit should serve useless targeted ads trying to sell me a mattress after I just bought one. Regional and contextual is plenty.


Ok, here are some of the issues I failed to see.

Seems though, that political and propaganda-related ads are more likely to be targetted regionally than anything else. Also, I don't think I've ever seen a political ad arise that seemed triggered by my browsing.
 
2022-01-19 8:34:37 PM  

An Account To Make Comments: emtwo: I think shutting down the targeted advertising is a good idea. It's the financial end-game for most of data harvesting. It won't end the practice, but it will deal a significant crippling blow to the data harvesting ecosystem.

And while marketing for physical products seems benign, it's worth keeping in mind that this will also affect (and is arguably aimed at) political advertising and targeted ideological propaganda, which can be much more harmful.

Regional and contextual advertisments will still be okay. If you're browsing a site that reviews outdoor goods, you'll still see ads for hiking boots. If you're looking at Lowe's website, you'll still see ads for lawnmowers and washing machines.

I don't see why this isn't specific enough for people. I don't know why every website I ever visit should serve useless targeted ads trying to sell me a mattress after I just bought one. Regional and contextual is plenty.

Ok, here are some of the issues I failed to see.

Seems though, that political and propaganda-related ads are more likely to be targetted regionally than anything else. Also, I don't think I've ever seen a political ad arise that seemed triggered by my browsing.


Campaign or issue advertisements are likely to be regional, yes. But that's not what we're talking about. We're mainly talking about getting served ads like, "Find out the REAL truth about 9/11 on www.traditionalpatriotvalues.com!"
 
2022-01-19 8:51:34 PM  

emtwo: An Account To Make Comments: emtwo: I think shutting down the targeted advertising is a good idea. It's the financial end-game for most of data harvesting. It won't end the practice, but it will deal a significant crippling blow to the data harvesting ecosystem.

And while marketing for physical products seems benign, it's worth keeping in mind that this will also affect (and is arguably aimed at) political advertising and targeted ideological propaganda, which can be much more harmful.

Regional and contextual advertisments will still be okay. If you're browsing a site that reviews outdoor goods, you'll still see ads for hiking boots. If you're looking at Lowe's website, you'll still see ads for lawnmowers and washing machines.

I don't see why this isn't specific enough for people. I don't know why every website I ever visit should serve useless targeted ads trying to sell me a mattress after I just bought one. Regional and contextual is plenty.

Ok, here are some of the issues I failed to see.

Seems though, that political and propaganda-related ads are more likely to be targetted regionally than anything else. Also, I don't think I've ever seen a political ad arise that seemed triggered by my browsing.

Campaign or issue advertisements are likely to be regional, yes. But that's not what we're talking about. We're mainly talking about getting served ads like, "Find out the REAL truth about 9/11 on www.traditionalpatriotvalues.com!"


Ok. I'd not want that delivered to anyone for sure. I'd be nice to shut the conspiracy BS right up, if possible.

I think this whole issue is pretty minor compared to other things that should be addressed. Everyone is pissed at 'big tech' these days. The right because they think twitter and youtube are silencing them, and the left because they don't silence the nazi, racist crap enough. So lets make everyone happy by targetting them with some legislation!
 
2022-01-19 9:14:44 PM  

czei: And as a small business owner I depend on online advertising to make a living.  Targeting ads at people who actually want my products makes more sense than putting ads in front of people who don't care.


Well, I guess that makes putting up with Cambridge Analytica and outfits like that worth it.   Wouldn't want you to miss out on a green widget sale.

/s


The world is full of evil bastards and if the info is being collected then it will be abused.
 
2022-01-20 1:03:38 AM  
Please no. I want to keep selling cigarettes to children. It's a free speech issue after all.
 
2022-01-20 3:42:16 AM  
Went to JC w/Eshoo's nephew. Tried to talk Hubby to settling in her district, not because of her but because of one of the communities in her district. An argument I lost. Still, I respect her. She's part of the Assyrian community here. They tend to trend liberal because of discriminations they've faced. They don't forget anything including hundreds of years ago blood feuds, so believe me, they remember when grandpa couldn't rent a house because of red-lining back in 1970. They share these stories and the remember. Ad a result, they vote liberal to get back at old families & conservatives. I wish more people were like them. I'll take revenge votes.
 
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