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(USA Today)   Elon Musk thinks under-population is biggest threat to human civilization. Subby thinks he is holding the graph upside down   (usatoday.com) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Demography, Population, World population, enough people, Tesla Motors, Population ecology, Elon Musk, Demographic economics  
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377 clicks; posted to STEM » on 07 Dec 2021 at 2:05 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-12-07 1:57:08 PM  
...Have you considered creating an economy where something other than continuous growth for its own sake forever is the only outcome that can be considered "success?"
 
2021-12-07 2:01:37 PM  
Plenty of people, just not the sorts that Musk prefers.
 
2021-12-07 2:06:39 PM  
Population or Pollution?
 
2021-12-07 2:10:37 PM  
Of course he wants overpopulation, because that theoretically means more customers for him.  He's an upper class twit, not a genius.
 
2021-12-07 2:14:33 PM  
He's right. He should get to farking himself right away.
 
2021-12-07 2:23:05 PM  
He's looking for more people to such money out of!
 
2021-12-07 2:26:59 PM  

growinthings: He's looking for more people to such money out of!


That's so fetch!
 
2021-12-07 2:30:49 PM  
The birth rate has gone down in many places. He may not be wrong.
 
2021-12-07 2:33:20 PM  

kdawg7736: The birth rate has gone down in many places. He may not be wrong.


There is a major difference between "not growing quite as fast" and "dangerously low".  "The flood is only rising at 3" per hour as opposed to 7" per hour" does not mean "We are in the middle of a drought"
 
2021-12-07 2:33:30 PM  

Martian_Astronomer: ...Have you considered creating an economy where something other than continuous growth for its own sake forever is the only outcome that can be considered "success?"


Elon Musk it really isn't smart enough to think about that. He's basically he less morally compromised version have your standards snake-oil salesman, the only real difference being that this one accidentally delivered on a business proposition once.

Long-term sustainability is not about more people simply because more people equals more profit.
 
2021-12-07 2:36:35 PM  
Musk is just another one of those assholes who thinks he knows everything because he's rich.  Fark him.
 
2021-12-07 2:41:40 PM  

phalamir: kdawg7736: The birth rate has gone down in many places. He may not be wrong.

There is a major difference between "not growing quite as fast" and "dangerously low".  "The flood is only rising at 3" per hour as opposed to 7" per hour" does not mean "We are in the middle of a drought"


The problem is sub-replacement birth rates in places like Europe and Japan. It's more like "the aquifer isn't getting replenished", to use your water metaphor. Yes, you can look at the over crowded places and say "this is overpopulation" and probably march them six abreast into the sea yada yada, but those places aren't going to get better if you help.
 
2021-12-07 2:42:22 PM  
This is a truly insane take. Yea a lot of first countries are seeing declining birthdrates but the total population across the world is totally exploding.

Eventually the population must level off and ideally decline. And we need an economic system that sustains a non growing population.

Instead the rich assjoles like him will let the world burn because they don't want to let the system change and adapt.
 
2021-12-07 2:43:29 PM  
Sa
Fark user imageView Full Size
me guy thinks this is a good look and nuking Mars is smart!

Elon used to be cool, but now he's an asshole.
 
2021-12-07 2:44:31 PM  
because when shiats not fooked up enough, you might have time and energy, to stop to consider what happens to other people.


Over population/lack of basic needs resources to go round, is the easiest problem to keep going, people hate responsibility but they love to fuk.
So we consistently have way more babies than are actually wanted, which produces an adult population of people that were never really included the first place.

Generation of people that had no meaningful reciprocation from civilization, do nothig to help maintain that civilization later. And rightly so.


We are at the stage that the shiatwhiffs are desperately begging everyone to not pay attention or notice that they need a pile of plebs to consume in the machines that keep their bullshiat going
 
2021-12-07 2:46:02 PM  

Martian_Astronomer: ...Have you considered creating an economy where something other than continuous growth for its own sake forever is the only outcome that can be considered "success?"


but how else can the rich get richer, which is the legal obligation of capitalism?  It's the law that companies have to increase profits every year.
 
2021-12-07 2:47:28 PM  
Note, also, that he doesn't want people to live too long. He's hoping for lots of short lives to be disposable labor.
 
2021-12-07 2:49:06 PM  
Maybe Musk should shut his f*cking pie hole once in a while. Go smoke some weed or something.
 
2021-12-07 2:50:55 PM  

wildcardjack: The problem is sub-replacement birth rates in places like Europe and Japan.


How is this a problem?  The West is getting more and more automated.  We don't need people to waddle merrily into the blast furnace to fuel it.  And resource allocation is already a problem - not catastrophic, but not optimal either.  More mouths for the sake of more mouths makes no sense.  You don't have to scythe Fort Wayne clean of all life, but a moderate reduction over time to account for less absolute need for worker drones is not the end of the world.
 
2021-12-07 2:56:59 PM  
WHITE underpopulation is what he is hate-signaling.
 
2021-12-07 3:00:11 PM  
"I need slaves."
 
2021-12-07 3:09:52 PM  
"A dozen worms can't go on and on gnawing the same apple forever." -- A. Solzhenitsyn

But 8 billion worms makes a picnic.
 
2021-12-07 3:10:45 PM  
This kind of devaluation of Elon Musk is just so weird. He didn't do anything to anyone here. He's a salesman, yes, and now the paper-richest or almost man in the world, lucky but appears to be genuinely living a much more productive life than anyone priding themselves on the quality of their fark post. So I can only assume the hate is because of his recent twitter trolling....and I gotta say at this point it is funny to see people disproportionately triggered by him.
 
2021-12-07 3:11:30 PM  

Squid_for_Brains: "I need slaves."


He could just borrow some from his parents' diamond mines.
 
2021-12-07 3:15:49 PM  

phalamir: You don't have to scythe Fort Wayne clean of all life


You got something against NE Indiana?

/Not saying I disagree with you
 
2021-12-07 3:23:10 PM  

phalamir: You don't have to scythe Fort Wayne clean of all life, but a moderate reduction over time to account for less absolute need for worker drones is not the end of the world.


I mean, you could. It's not a terrible idea.
 
2021-12-07 3:26:16 PM  

LoneCoon: phalamir: You don't have to scythe Fort Wayne clean of all life, but a moderate reduction over time to account for less absolute need for worker drones is not the end of the world.

I mean, you could. It's not a terrible idea.


But spare the science museum, it's pretty cool.
 
2021-12-07 3:36:52 PM  

taliesinwi: phalamir: You don't have to scythe Fort Wayne clean of all life

You got something against NE Indiana?

/Not saying I disagree with you


Honestly?  I was trying to name a city not too big, but that still had name recognition.  And I did say you didn't have to do it...
 
2021-12-07 3:41:20 PM  
Elon Musk, in D&D terms, is like Int 22 Wis 6.
 
2021-12-07 3:49:30 PM  

chawco: This is a truly insane take. Yea a lot of first countries are seeing declining birthdrates but the total population across the world is totally exploding.

Eventually the population must level off and ideally decline. And we need an economic system that sustains a non growing population.

Instead the rich assjoles like him will let the world burn because they don't want to let the system change and adapt.


Exploding? I think Nigeria is projected to be the last big country with population growth, with worldwide population being basically stable around 2050 and then declining. Declining population, aging population means you aren't gonna have enough roofers or road work guys, unless we just draft young people into a civil service to maintain older people's comfort by making them do construction work.

Or unless we automate far more construction jobs, which would probably be a very difficult thing to do. Automating a factory, in physically well defined workflows, is relatively easy. Automating, say, plumbing installation from the street or well/septic, with all the likely (and unlikely) variables to consider with that kind of work is, at this point, not going to happen.

And we will need a LOT of new infrastructure since we're headed toward a worst case climate change scenario.
 
2021-12-07 3:53:17 PM  
"I think it is important for us to die because most of the times, people don't change their mind, they just die,"


Please..lead the way. I'll wait.
 
2021-12-07 3:57:01 PM  

BolloxReader: chawco: This is a truly insane take. Yea a lot of first countries are seeing declining birthdrates but the total population across the world is totally exploding.

Eventually the population must level off and ideally decline. And we need an economic system that sustains a non growing population.

Instead the rich assjoles like him will let the world burn because they don't want to let the system change and adapt.

Exploding? I think Nigeria is projected to be the last big country with population growth, with worldwide population being basically stable around 2050 and then declining. Declining population, aging population means you aren't gonna have enough roofers or road work guys, unless we just draft young people into a civil service to maintain older people's comfort by making them do construction work.

Or unless we automate far more construction jobs, which would probably be a very difficult thing to do. Automating a factory, in physically well defined workflows, is relatively easy. Automating, say, plumbing installation from the street or well/septic, with all the likely (and unlikely) variables to consider with that kind of work is, at this point, not going to happen.

And we will need a LOT of new infrastructure since we're headed toward a worst case climate change scenario.


So... factory automation means young factory workers can become roofers.  This isn't hard.
 
2021-12-07 4:00:11 PM  
Pay your taxes, attention whore
 
2021-12-07 4:02:13 PM  

kdawg7736: The birth rate has gone down in many places. He may not be wrong.


We face resource issues in the coming decades. One would think having fewer children would help so those few that do live get to enjoy something of this world before people like Elon take everything there is to take for themselves.
 
2021-12-07 4:02:40 PM  
Is that why he has like 9 kids
 
2021-12-07 4:04:11 PM  

BolloxReader: chawco: This is a truly insane take. Yea a lot of first countries are seeing declining birthdrates but the total population across the world is totally exploding.

Eventually the population must level off and ideally decline. And we need an economic system that sustains a non growing population.

Instead the rich assjoles like him will let the world burn because they don't want to let the system change and adapt.

Exploding? I think Nigeria is projected to be the last big country with population growth, with worldwide population being basically stable around 2050 and then declining. Declining population, aging population means you aren't gonna have enough roofers or road work guys, unless we just draft young people into a civil service to maintain older people's comfort by making them do construction work.

Or unless we automate far more construction jobs, which would probably be a very difficult thing to do. Automating a factory, in physically well defined workflows, is relatively easy. Automating, say, plumbing installation from the street or well/septic, with all the likely (and unlikely) variables to consider with that kind of work is, at this point, not going to happen.

And we will need a LOT of new infrastructure since we're headed toward a worst case climate change scenario.


Current growth is about 1% per year, which is still pretty high.

The eventual stability and decline is both inevitable and desirable. We jsut need to adapt to it. Many current jobs CAN be automated freeing more workers for those which cannot, and many of those which cannot will be made easier by technological developments.

My big concern is our system is not adaptable. And so we'll have a disaster we don't need to have, because of people like Musk.
 
2021-12-07 4:17:25 PM  

I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: WHITE underpopulation is what he is hate-signaling.


I've never met a white South African who wasn't murderously racist.  I've only met two, but 100% so far.
 
2021-12-07 4:18:43 PM  

NM Volunteer: BolloxReader: chawco: This is a truly insane take.

And we will need a LOT of new infrastructure since we're headed toward a worst case climate change scenario.

So... factory automation means young factory workers can become roofers.  This isn't hard.


Roofing is a real shiat job.  Those youngsters deserve it!
 
2021-12-07 4:21:41 PM  
He also wants people to die off so that they can take their old ideas with them:

"I think it is important for us to die because most of the times, people don't change their mind, they just die," he said. "If they live forever, then we might become a very ossified society where new ideas cannot succeed."

I have to admit, I've never met a passive-aggressive progressive before.  Kinda refreshing.
 
2021-12-07 4:21:41 PM  

phalamir: taliesinwi: phalamir: You don't have to scythe Fort Wayne clean of all life

You got something against NE Indiana?

/Not saying I disagree with you

Honestly?  I was trying to name a city not too big, but that still had name recognition.  And I did say you didn't have to do it...


/checks tracking info: Indiana, Tennessee, Texas...

Yup, Sweetwater shipped my audio interface device.  Go ahead with Project Fort Slicer.
 
2021-12-07 4:35:40 PM  

covfefe: This kind of devaluation of Elon Musk is just so weird. He didn't do anything to anyone here. He's a salesman, yes, and now the paper-richest or almost man in the world, lucky but appears to be genuinely living a much more productive life than anyone priding themselves on the quality of their fark post. So I can only assume the hate is because of his recent twitter trolling....and I gotta say at this point it is funny to see people disproportionately triggered by him.


He moved to Texas to avoid first world protections for his workers and the environment.

Anyone still cheering such a POS are themselves a POS.
 
2021-12-07 4:39:11 PM  

BolloxReader: chawco: This is a truly insane take. Yea a lot of first countries are seeing declining birthdrates but the total population across the world is totally exploding.

Eventually the population must level off and ideally decline. And we need an economic system that sustains a non growing population.

Instead the rich assjoles like him will let the world burn because they don't want to let the system change and adapt.

Exploding? I think Nigeria is projected to be the last big country with population growth, with worldwide population being basically stable around 2050 and then declining. Declining population, aging population means you aren't gonna have enough roofers or road work guys, unless we just draft young people into a civil service to maintain older people's comfort by making them do construction work.

Or unless we automate far more construction jobs, which would probably be a very difficult thing to do. Automating a factory, in physically well defined workflows, is relatively easy. Automating, say, plumbing installation from the street or well/septic, with all the likely (and unlikely) variables to consider with that kind of work is, at this point, not going to happen.

And we will need a LOT of new infrastructure since we're headed toward a worst case climate change scenario.


You overlooked the Repuglican plan: a permanent slave class of people of color in for-profit prisons sent out to do the back-breaking labor that can't be done by automation (or is too expensive to do so).
 
2021-12-07 4:44:53 PM  

I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: covfefe: This kind of devaluation of Elon Musk is just so weird. He didn't do anything to anyone here. He's a salesman, yes, and now the paper-richest or almost man in the world, lucky but appears to be genuinely living a much more productive life than anyone priding themselves on the quality of their fark post. So I can only assume the hate is because of his recent twitter trolling....and I gotta say at this point it is funny to see people disproportionately triggered by him.

He moved to Texas to avoid first world protections for his workers and the environment.

Anyone still cheering such a POS are themselves a POS.


So there is good and bad, and the first world is good, and Musk, Texas, and supporters of Musk (and presumably Texas) are bad. Workers are good, unless they support Musk, which they do by working for him in Texas. You are good, I assume.
 
2021-12-07 4:49:08 PM  
BolloxReader:

Exploding? I think Nigeria is projected to be the last big country with population growth, with worldwide population being basically stable around 2050 and then declining.

Nigeria's total fertility rate is something like 4.7, but Niger's is the highest at 6.9.  And that's _this year_ with all the COVID nastiness.  

In 2019, every country in Africa was above 2.1 total fertility rate - generally considered "replacement rate" but with the staggering infant mortality rates those countries have, I'm not sure that remains true.  4/5ths of them were above 3 TFR.

Pre-pandemic, the UN estimated that more than 66% of the world's population growth between now and 2050 will be in Africa.  The same predictions have the world population levelling out just below 11 million in 2100.  Other studies have the peak around 2065 to about 9.7 billion, shrinking to 8.8 by 2100.

Meanwhile, other countries are going to have their populations drop sharply by 2100 - like Japan (128 mil to 60 mil), China (1.4 bil to 732 mil), and Italy (61 mil to 31 mil).

To say nothing of the decrease of the working-age population supporting a steadily growing non-working one...
 
2021-12-07 5:05:02 PM  
"... people shouldn't 'try to live for a super long time.'"

Sure, pal.  Let's get right on to shortening everyone's lifespan.
 
2021-12-07 5:24:52 PM  

taliesinwi: BolloxReader:

Exploding? I think Nigeria is projected to be the last big country with population growth, with worldwide population being basically stable around 2050 and then declining.

Nigeria's total fertility rate is something like 4.7, but Niger's is the highest at 6.9.  And that's _this year_ with all the COVID nastiness.  

In 2019, every country in Africa was above 2.1 total fertility rate - generally considered "replacement rate" but with the staggering infant mortality rates those countries have, I'm not sure that remains true.  4/5ths of them were above 3 TFR.

Pre-pandemic, the UN estimated that more than 66% of the world's population growth between now and 2050 will be in Africa.  The same predictions have the world population levelling out just below 11 million in 2100.  Other studies have the peak around 2065 to about 9.7 billion, shrinking to 8.8 by 2100.

Meanwhile, other countries are going to have their populations drop sharply by 2100 - like Japan (128 mil to 60 mil), China (1.4 bil to 732 mil), and Italy (61 mil to 31 mil).

To say nothing of the decrease of the working-age population supporting a steadily growing non-working one...


China for a while to come will have to work past their former policy creating the 1-2-4 problem: one worker supporting two parents and four grandparents.
 
2021-12-07 5:44:08 PM  
As usual, the "There aren't enough people" assholes always leave out the word they'd really like to include, but don't dare for fear of "cancellation": white.

In their opinion, there aren't enough white people.
 
2021-12-07 6:00:34 PM  

gnosis301: "... people shouldn't 'try to live for a super long time.'"

Sure, pal.  Let's get right on to shortening everyone's lifespan.


What do you thing his self"driving" cars are for?
 
2021-12-07 9:28:53 PM  
Dang it, I have to defend Elon.

As nations develop, the trend is for the birth rate to fall drastically.  Kids turn from free farm labor into expensive burdens, while access to birth control and knowledge increases.  Would-be parents are too busy with higher education, starting their careers, and paying off debts to afford children.

Which is why the population growth rate globally, while still positive, has been falling for the last 50 years or so.

Currently, about half the world has below-replacement fertility rates.  I believe this would include the US, if it wasn't for immigration - and even then, after a generation or two, immigrants tend to conform to the fertility rate of non-immigrants.

So, is this a potential future problem?  Yes, one could argue that.

Of course, predicting the future is hard - perhaps what will happen is that we end up self-selecting for people who want many children (either through genetics or memetics).  The future could be filled with people too dumb to use birth control, or a bunch of quiverful folk, while those of us who underperform having children end up fading away as we die off.

Or perhaps it goes the other way and we develop perfect humanlike android companions that fill relationship roles so wonderfully that we don't bother interacting with other flesh-and-blood human beings and we go extinct.  (Insert Futurama's "Don't Date Robots" here.)
 
2021-12-07 11:13:46 PM  

To Wish Impossible Things: Dang it, I have to defend Elon.


You don't have to. You could recognise that he's a nut and move on.

As nations develop, the trend is for the birth rate to fall drastically.  Kids turn from free farm labor into expensive burdens, while access to birth control and knowledge increases.  Would-be parents are too busy with higher education, starting their careers, and paying off debts to afford children.

Which is why the population growth rate globally, while still positive, has been falling for the last 50 years or so.

Currently, about half the world has below-replacement fertility rates.  I believe this would include the US, if it wasn't for immigration - and even then, after a generation or two, immigrants tend to conform to the fertility rate of non-immigrants.

So, is this a potential future problem?  Yes, one could argue that.


One certainly could, except for the fact that people are already suffering from the effects of overpopulation. And climate change will not make things better. There are refugee crises all over the planet right now.

Which is why fascist asshats are pushing Great Replacement rhetoric and trying to provoke race wars all over the planet.

First world nations can handle a dropping global birth rate and still profit from accepting refugees. The only reason anyone has a problem with that concept is that they're racist asshats.
 
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