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(BBC-US)   Looks like Saigon had nothing on Kabul   (bbc.com) divider line
    More: Followup, United Kingdom, British Empire, Mr Raab, Foreign Affairs Committee, Afghanistan, main challenges, Mr Marshall, Pakistan  
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3180 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Dec 2021 at 1:05 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-12-07 1:06:32 PM  
nice goin biden
 
2021-12-07 1:07:54 PM  

Palined Parenthood: nice goin biden


All the boomers are reliving the past. What's next? Hostages?
 
2021-12-07 1:08:45 PM  
Sure we've knowm of the deadline for months but we will never actually leave so I'm not going to prepare.
 
2021-12-07 1:10:11 PM  

Palined Parenthood: nice goin biden


This is discussion of the withdrawal by the UK, not the US.
 
2021-12-07 1:10:16 PM  
Meh. Hindsighting.

We should have been working on a years long pull out process. Not just pull the plug and burn the thing down.

But then that's kind of symptomatic of the whole farking invasion in the first place. No foresite, halfhearted measures, and abysmal failure all around.
 
2021-12-07 1:10:55 PM  
Who cares. We're out. No one cares about hindsight analysis of a no-win shiat show.
 
2021-12-07 1:11:46 PM  

Geotpf: Palined Parenthood: nice goin biden

This is discussion of the withdrawal by the UK, not the US.


yeah well bernie still lost
 
2021-12-07 1:12:07 PM  
No1curristan

Seriously, no1curr.

/seriously
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-12-07 1:12:20 PM  

LarryDan43: Sure we've knowm of the deadline for months but we will never actually leave so I'm not going to prepare.


that's part of the game of chicken, each person who didn't prepare for the evac of people under them was willing to let those people die as part of their political games to essentially use them as hostages on behalf of the military industrial complex.
 
2021-12-07 1:14:50 PM  
Maybe releasing those 5,000 Taliban prisoners was a bad idea in hindsight.
 
2021-12-07 1:15:34 PM  
Not to be that guy but I'm gonna be that guy.

1) after 20 years hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people have ties to the US or other countries that sent missions there. Those hundreds of thousands have hundreds of thousands of family members as well. To be frank the US and friends were never going to evacuate potentially a million or more people from Afghanistan.

2) the agreement with the Taliban was to leave by 1 September, the former government was gone, staying beyond that to evac more people would have likely meant fighting the Taliban again which would mean more troops and more deaths which all would have made it very difficult to evacuate more people anyway.

Honestly I believe the least dangerous and most effective way to continue evacuations after 1sept was to remove the military as agreed and get other people out through more traditional means like civilian flights which tens of thousands have safely done since 1sept.
 
2021-12-07 1:16:02 PM  

Clash City Farker: Palined Parenthood: nice goin biden

All the boomers are reliving the past. What's next? Hostages?


Someone better start yelling at Jane Fonda.
 
2021-12-07 1:16:50 PM  
It's almost as if we shouldn't ever do this shiat.

Oh but Afghanistan was "the Good War."  They attacked us.

Christ.
 
2021-12-07 1:19:43 PM  

whidbey: It's almost as if we shouldn't ever do this shiat.

Oh but Afghanistan was "the Good War."  They attacked us.

Christ.


The issue wasn't the initial invasion.

The issue was staying for twenty farking years.
 
2021-12-07 1:20:06 PM  

Geotpf: whidbey: It's almost as if we shouldn't ever do this shiat.

Oh but Afghanistan was "the Good War."  They attacked us.

Christ.

The issue wasn't the initial invasion.

The issue was staying for twenty farking years.


No, they were both issues.
 
2021-12-07 1:20:25 PM  
Why wasn't this war conducted in an orderly and predictable manner, as all previous wars were?!?!?!?!?!
 
2021-12-07 1:20:36 PM  

Geotpf: Palined Parenthood: nice goin biden

This is discussion of the withdrawal by the UK, not the US.


It's actually about a Trump timeline forced on all the countries in Afghanistan, during a world pandemic, during a Brexit calendar -- following a world wide diplomacy disaster and during a world trade crisis and due in part to Trump's unilateral trade war on the world.
 
2021-12-07 1:22:41 PM  

BitwiseShift: It's actually about a Trump timeline forced on all the countries in Afghanistan


yep, one of the only good things he did as president
 
2021-12-07 1:26:25 PM  

whidbey: It's almost as if we shouldn't ever do this shiat.

Oh but Afghanistan was "the Good War."  They attacked us.

"Christ."


Well you are proven the Infidel so......
 
2021-12-07 1:26:52 PM  

LarryDan43: Sure we've knowm of the deadline for months but we will never actually leave so I'm not going to prepare.


This is what puzzles me. They knew and did nothing. The fact it was not easy for them to or they were unable to evacuate at the last minute is their fault and not anybody else's.
 
2021-12-07 1:26:56 PM  

BitwiseShift: Geotpf: Palined Parenthood: nice goin biden

This is discussion of the withdrawal by the UK, not the US.

It's actually about a Trump timeline forced on all the countries in Afghanistan, during a world pandemic, during a Brexit calendar -- following a world wide diplomacy disaster and during a world trade crisis and due in part to Trump's unilateral trade war on the world.


So, what you're sayin' is, Brandon Went!
 
2021-12-07 1:28:52 PM  

Not again 5: BitwiseShift: Geotpf: Palined Parenthood: nice goin biden

This is discussion of the withdrawal by the UK, not the US.

It's actually about a Trump timeline forced on all the countries in Afghanistan, during a world pandemic, during a Brexit calendar -- following a world wide diplomacy disaster and during a world trade crisis and due in part to Trump's unilateral trade war on the world.

So, what you're sayin' is, Brandon Went!


the guy from fall out boy?
 
2021-12-07 1:28:59 PM  

Clash City Farker: Palined Parenthood: nice goin biden

All the boomers are reliving the past. What's next? Hostages?


We're even boycotting the Olympics again.
 
2021-12-07 1:30:44 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-12-07 1:31:08 PM  

Night Train to Wakanda: Meh. Hindsighting.

We should have been working on a years long pull out process. Not just pull the plug and burn the thing down.

But then that's kind of symptomatic of the whole farking invasion in the first place. No foresite, halfhearted measures, and abysmal failure all around.


There was a plan, but the plan relied on the entire Afghanistan military not collapsing in two weeks and the Afghanistan president no fleeing the country the day of the withdrawal.
 
2021-12-07 1:40:44 PM  

LarryDan43: Sure we've knowm of the deadline for months but we will never actually leave so I'm not going to prepare.


While the guy was a dumbass to stay on vacation that long while this shiat went down, as far as what they actually got done?  It was probably more like, "We can only get so much transportation out of a war zone available in any one window, no matter how much we'd like to have."  It's not as if they could keep an entire fleet of planes on standby for ages just in case - which is what they'd need as the article was complaining there were 150,000 people asking for help from them.  While it's framed as a "This guy messed up" thing, it really has the look of a Monday morning quarterbacking hit piece on the overall effort.
 
2021-12-07 1:42:58 PM  

Geotpf: whidbey: It's almost as if we shouldn't ever do this shiat.

Oh but Afghanistan was "the Good War."  They attacked us.

Christ.

The issue wasn't the initial invasion.

The issue was staying for twenty farking years.


The staying for 20 years and constantly saying, "we are going to leave soon(ish)" coupled with three US administrations' worth of lack of will to actually commit to building the nation again, and a lack of international shiats given with no centralize organization to ensure the feel good operations actually accomplished something.

If we had committed to rebuilding from the word go (or even from the Obama administration) and set up a permanent military base the outcome could have been much better.

But we didn't so it isn't. Milling about for another decade or two without changing the haphazard nature of the political approach was not going to solve anything.
 
2021-12-07 1:45:01 PM  

heavymetal: LarryDan43: Sure we've knowm of the deadline for months but we will never actually leave so I'm not going to prepare.

This is what puzzles me. They knew and did nothing. The fact it was not easy for them to or they were unable to evacuate at the last minute is their fault and not anybody else's.


There was a large faction who were saying that evacuating allies would hurt morale because it would imply that US/UK/allies had no faith in the government in Kabul and would leave Afghanistan no choice but to surrender to the Taliban when we took a healthy chunk of the population willing to support the existing government away.

Of course the government folded th second the Taliban got to their gates before we evacuated, and instead we negotiated a ceasefire to get out of there and leave it to them in the hopes it would improve relations/try to avoid wholesale slaughter.
 
2021-12-07 1:47:02 PM  
Tangent:

25 seems really young to me to be a senior desk officer for the Foreign Office, unless senior desk officer is like "senior specialist" in the military.
 
2021-12-07 1:57:52 PM  

fortheloveof: Geotpf: whidbey: It's almost as if we shouldn't ever do this shiat.

Oh but Afghanistan was "the Good War."  They attacked us.

Christ.

The issue wasn't the initial invasion.

The issue was staying for twenty farking years.

The staying for 20 years and constantly saying, "we are going to leave soon(ish)" coupled with three US administrations' worth of lack of will to actually commit to building the nation again, and a lack of international shiats given with no centralize organization to ensure the feel good operations actually accomplished something.

If we had committed to rebuilding from the word go (or even from the Obama administration) and set up a permanent military base the outcome could have been much better.


Rebuilding what?  When was Afghanistan ever a functioning nation?  This was always a nation building exercise, not a rebuilding one.  Also, as Iraq showed, there is no such thing as a permanent military base in a foreign sovereign nation.  You are always at the whims of the next leader telling you to get out.  At that point you either respect their sovereignty and surrender your expensive military base or you refuse and become an occupying force that the natives all hate, which puts you back to square one.
 
2021-12-07 1:58:02 PM  

Night Train to Wakanda: Meh. Hindsighting.

We should have been working on a years long pull out process. Not just pull the plug and burn the thing down.

But then that's kind of symptomatic of the whole farking invasion in the first place. No foresite, halfhearted measures, and abysmal failure all around.


It was almost a year long pull out.  Biden extended the originally agreed upon deadline by 5 months.

If people ignored it that's on them.
 
2021-12-07 1:59:10 PM  
No one read the article, huh?

Good. Too much article readin' is bad for your eyes!
 
2021-12-07 1:59:35 PM  

Meatsim1: Honestly I believe the least dangerous and most effective way to continue evacuations after 1sept was to remove the military as agreed and get other people out through more traditional means like civilian flights which tens of thousands have safely done since 1sept.


When all the outgoing flights are headed to Belarus it doesn't sound like any war stopped if you asked me. You know the refugees are mere pawns in Mongo's game of life.
 
2021-12-07 1:59:51 PM  

Geotpf: whidbey: It's almost as if we shouldn't ever do this shiat.

Oh but Afghanistan was "the Good War."  They attacked us.

Christ.

The issue wasn't the initial invasion.

The issue was staying for twenty farking years.


No, the problem was the initial invasion too.  America should not have attacked Afghanistan to conquer it like they did.
 
2021-12-07 2:01:16 PM  

mrparks: No one read the article, huh?

Good. Too much article readin' is bad for your eyes!


What do we need to read?

No more stupid invasions.  That should have been the lesson after Vietnam, and we fell for that shiat again.

Yes, "we."
 
2021-12-07 2:04:57 PM  

Meatsim1: Not to be that guy but I'm gonna be that guy.

1) after 20 years hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people have ties to the US or other countries that sent missions there. Those hundreds of thousands have hundreds of thousands of family members as well. To be frank the US and friends were never going to evacuate potentially a million or more people from Afghanistan.

2) the agreement with the Taliban was to leave by 1 September, the former government was gone, staying beyond that to evac more people would have likely meant fighting the Taliban again which would mean more troops and more deaths which all would have made it very difficult to evacuate more people anyway.


All of this.


Honestly I believe the least dangerous and most effective way to continue evacuations after 1sept was to remove the military as agreed and get other people out through more traditional means like civilian flights which tens of thousands have safely done since 1sept.

Like every other newly occupying band of thugs, the Taliban predictably blocked outgoing civilian flights so they could round up the collaborators of the previous regime for punishment.  Summary execution of the previous government is a common occurrence in any coup.
 
2021-12-07 2:09:20 PM  

Persnickety: fortheloveof: Geotpf: whidbey: It's almost as if we shouldn't ever do this shiat.

Oh but Afghanistan was "the Good War."  They attacked us.

Christ.

The issue wasn't the initial invasion.

The issue was staying for twenty farking years.

The staying for 20 years and constantly saying, "we are going to leave soon(ish)" coupled with three US administrations' worth of lack of will to actually commit to building the nation again, and a lack of international shiats given with no centralize organization to ensure the feel good operations actually accomplished something.

If we had committed to rebuilding from the word go (or even from the Obama administration) and set up a permanent military base the outcome could have been much better.

Rebuilding what?  When was Afghanistan ever a functioning nation?  This was always a nation building exercise, not a rebuilding one.  Also, as Iraq showed, there is no such thing as a permanent military base in a foreign sovereign nation.  You are always at the whims of the next leader telling you to get out.  At that point you either respect their sovereignty and surrender your expensive military base or you refuse and become an occupying force that the natives all hate, which puts you back to square one.


I will agree that nation building is a better statement than rebuilding due to all the damage and destruction from the late 1970s until the start of the US invasion.

As to the permanent/long term base: we are still in Germany, Japan, and Iraq. We admitted to what we needed to do and actually did work on the nation building in each of those cases. I am not claiming these are golden examples or they went perfectly, however each is better than where Afghanistan has ended up.

Of course completely ignoring Afghanistan while we went stupidly into Iraq did not help anything either.
 
2021-12-07 2:10:32 PM  
The reports all the State Dept people were drunk and had to be woken up and babysat during the evac is amusing and horrifying.  They knew an evac was imminent, but wouldn't stay sober for a night.

If you're so drunk you can't carry your own shiat, security should just kick you outside and say peace out.
 
2021-12-07 2:10:48 PM  

mrparks: No one read the article, huh?

Good. Too much article readin' is bad for your eyes!


Didn't read the comments in the thread? Good, wouldn't want your comment to acknowledge people specifically asking about points in the article and preventing you from smugly assuming otherwise.
 
2021-12-07 2:11:14 PM  

ISmartAllMyOwnPosts: The reports all the State Dept people were drunk and had to be woken up and babysat during the evac is amusing and horrifying.  They knew an evac was imminent, but wouldn't stay sober for a night.

If you're so drunk you can't carry your own shiat, security should just kick you outside and say peace out.


What are you derping about now?
 
2021-12-07 2:12:17 PM  
Journalists for 18 years of Afghanistan occupation: *crickets*
Journalists as the U.S. was leaving: GUNS! EXPLOSIONS! BOOM! WHAT A MESS! AND EVERYTHING WILL BE BAD WHEN THE U.S. IS GONE!
Journalists after: CAN YOU BELIEVE WHAT LIFE IN AFGHANISTAN IS LIKE?! THE HORROR


media1.giphy.comView Full Size
 
2021-12-07 2:14:17 PM  

whidbey: ISmartAllMyOwnPosts: The reports all the State Dept people were drunk and had to be woken up and babysat during the evac is amusing and horrifying.  They knew an evac was imminent, but wouldn't stay sober for a night.

If you're so drunk you can't carry your own shiat, security should just kick you outside and say peace out.

What are you derping about now?


The reports that came from the US Embassy security on the night they were given the evac order.

You did read those, right?

Oh, of course not - that's why this article is a surprise to you.
 
2021-12-07 2:30:34 PM  
When a defeated army retreats, it's a shiatshow. Prove me wrong.

This wasn't Napoleon's retreat from Moscow no matter how much the media wants to paint it that way.
 
2021-12-07 2:33:55 PM  

ISmartAllMyOwnPosts: whidbey: ISmartAllMyOwnPosts: The reports all the State Dept people were drunk and had to be woken up and babysat during the evac is amusing and horrifying.  They knew an evac was imminent, but wouldn't stay sober for a night.

If you're so drunk you can't carry your own shiat, security should just kick you outside and say peace out.

What are you derping about now?

The reports that came from the US Embassy security on the night they were given the evac order.

You did read those, right?

Oh, of course not - that's why this article is a surprise to you.


None of your posts are surprising.
 
2021-12-07 2:35:30 PM  
Maybe drawing down your military forces to a smaller number than the amount of enemy combatants you ordered released is a bad idea.  Trump math, the best dealmaker, etc.

Nothing went right, but at least we're out.
 
2021-12-07 2:45:37 PM  
It's interesting that so many people still seem unable to get their heads around "You guys seem determined to shiat the bed, and we're done trying to hold your pajama bottoms up so that you can't."
 
2021-12-07 2:52:52 PM  
Yeah, the South Vietnamese held Saigon for 2 years after US ground forces left. The Afghan National "Army" didn't last 2 minutes.
 
2021-12-07 2:58:52 PM  

Persnickety: Meatsim1: Not to be that guy but I'm gonna be that guy.

1) after 20 years hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people have ties to the US or other countries that sent missions there. Those hundreds of thousands have hundreds of thousands of family members as well. To be frank the US and friends were never going to evacuate potentially a million or more people from Afghanistan.

2) the agreement with the Taliban was to leave by 1 September, the former government was gone, staying beyond that to evac more people would have likely meant fighting the Taliban again which would mean more troops and more deaths which all would have made it very difficult to evacuate more people anyway.

All of this.


Honestly I believe the least dangerous and most effective way to continue evacuations after 1sept was to remove the military as agreed and get other people out through more traditional means like civilian flights which tens of thousands have safely done since 1sept.

Like every other newly occupying band of thugs, the Taliban predictably blocked outgoing civilian flights so they could round up the collaborators of the previous regime for punishment.  Summary execution of the previous government is a common occurrence in any coup.


It is and sadly some of them will die, just like some would have died if we stayed.

But I can promise you that a lot of former government and folks who worked with the US have left since the US military left
 
2021-12-07 3:26:39 PM  

heavymetal: There was a plan, but the plan relied on the entire Afghanistan military not collapsing in two weeks and the Afghanistan president no fleeing the country the day of the withdrawal.


I have plans for tonight that involve a briefcase full of money falling out of the sky into my back yard.
 
2021-12-07 3:28:46 PM  

Persnickety: When was Afghanistan ever a functioning nation?


1988.
 
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