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(Fox News)   600 nerds worried that California schools might stop producing enough nerds   (foxnews.com) divider line
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642 clicks; posted to STEM » on 07 Dec 2021 at 6:05 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-12-07 6:24:55 AM  
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Maths education moves way too slow in US schools, and mostly because teachers are unqualified.
It's actually really easy to teach kids math because you can generate positive re-inforcement feedback like with games. The biggest barrier is attitude from adults that presume kids won't like math and that math is hard.
 
2021-12-07 6:54:09 AM  
Yah, I felt this way about my kid's math. They were teaching my kids long division a stupid way.
I call it the 'lowest common denominator' math. Find the stupidest way to teach a math concept to kids, even if they won't use it in the future.
 
2021-12-07 7:15:14 AM  
Some California cities are also eliminating grades of D and F from grading, using "incomplete" instead. When they say failure is not an option, they mean it.
 
2021-12-07 7:19:47 AM  

wademh: [startrek.com image 550x300]
[Fark user image image 746x619]

Maths education moves way too slow in US schools, and mostly because teachers are unqualified.
It's actually really easy to teach kids math because you can generate positive re-inforcement feedback like with games. The biggest barrier is attitude from adults that presume kids won't like math and that math is hard.


Feel the same way. I'm introducing my 6 year old son to multiplication. In school they're not even in double-digit addition. From everything I've encountered and talking with other parents, it seems that most kids are capable of learning far more than the standard curriculum. So we use Minecraft workbooks at home in the meantime.
 
2021-12-07 7:29:21 AM  

greatgodyoshi: wademh: [startrek.com image 550x300]
[Fark user image image 746x619]

Maths education moves way too slow in US schools, and mostly because teachers are unqualified.
It's actually really easy to teach kids math because you can generate positive re-inforcement feedback like with games. The biggest barrier is attitude from adults that presume kids won't like math and that math is hard.

Feel the same way. I'm introducing my 6 year old son to multiplication. In school they're not even in double-digit addition. From everything I've encountered and talking with other parents, it seems that most kids are capable of learning far more than the standard curriculum. So we use Minecraft workbooks at home in the meantime.


Bravo to both of you, and don't back down.  Two pieces of advice I would throw out for you both (as well as others) came from two math teachers I had in college: 1) Math is simply another language.  It is no different than learning French, Spanish, or anything else; 2) there are only four operations in math -- adding, subtracting, multiplication, and division.  Everything else is window dressing.

greatgodyoshia -the biggest problem with (most) grade school teachers is their pathetic, fragile egos.  I'm talking the ones who will mark an answer incorrect because the student "Didn't solve the problem how it was taught."  Teachers are the #1 reason why students end up hating a particular subject, which is math a majority of the time.
 
2021-12-07 7:42:46 AM  
I didnt really learn Math until 11th grade physics. And now I am in a STEM field and I struggle with math, but I still like it and the puzzle aspect that can be the higher level problems (kind of like learning a second language when you are older, I am competent, but it doesnt flow easy). I just wonder how comfortable I would be with it if I had a good math program from the beginning (my generation had an experimental math program they eliminated after we graduated).
 
2021-12-07 7:53:35 AM  

wademh: [startrek.com image 550x300]
[Fark user image 746x619]

Maths education moves way too slow in US schools, and mostly because teachers are unqualified.
It's actually really easy to teach kids math because you can generate positive re-inforcement feedback like with games. The biggest barrier is attitude from adults that presume kids won't like math and that math is hard.


No arguments, my math classes back in college and such were taught by such exciting people they made the Ben Stein clear eye commercials from back in the day look like a fireworks display.
 
2021-12-07 7:54:04 AM  
science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM)

And I though STEM meant Science Scary Scientists Stupid
 
2021-12-07 7:57:59 AM  
I have family in Australia.  A grade of 50% is a C.
 
2021-12-07 8:03:57 AM  
 What's really going on here?  I don't trust Fox to give me a story that's not slanted. I don't think we should cut back on advanced math classes, but is that really the whole story? Is that even what they're proposing?
 
2021-12-07 8:15:18 AM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: greatgodyoshi: wademh: [startrek.com image 550x300]
[Fark user image image 746x619]

Maths education moves way too slow in US schools, and mostly because teachers are unqualified.
It's actually really easy to teach kids math because you can generate positive re-inforcement feedback like with games. The biggest barrier is attitude from adults that presume kids won't like math and that math is hard.

Feel the same way. I'm introducing my 6 year old son to multiplication. In school they're not even in double-digit addition. From everything I've encountered and talking with other parents, it seems that most kids are capable of learning far more than the standard curriculum. So we use Minecraft workbooks at home in the meantime.

Bravo to both of you, and don't back down.  Two pieces of advice I would throw out for you both (as well as others) came from two math teachers I had in college: 1) Math is simply another language.  It is no different than learning French, Spanish, or anything else; 2) there are only four operations in math -- adding, subtracting, multiplication, and division.  Everything else is window dressing.

greatgodyoshia -the biggest problem with (most) grade school teachers is their pathetic, fragile egos.  I'm talking the ones who will mark an answer incorrect because the student "Didn't solve the problem how it was taught."  Teachers are the #1 reason why students end up hating a particular subject, which is math a majority of the time.


There is only one operation in math: addition. Everything else is window dressing.
 
2021-12-07 8:19:42 AM  
Math games I did with my grandkids when homeschooling them last year.

We played Yahtzee. The two boys are very competitive. The younger, 4 had a bit of trouble counting up how much 3 fours were at first but got there quick. The older, 7, got to practice the things he knew but turn them into instant recall facts. Plus, he liked to keep a running total so as we played he would keep adding up the scores in his head. And of course there's a natural transition from looking at 3 5s and doing 5 + 5 + 5 to doing 3 x 5.

I also had them both write out multiplication tables. They didn't know they were multiplication tables, they thought they were counting by 1s, then 2s, then 3s. (we'd mix in schoolhouse rock).

Then we would play a 'matching game' with Pokémon cards. I'd bought a few sets and culled out duplicates. You lay them out in a grid face down and take turns trying to find a matching pair. We used to call it Concentration after an old game show. But we'd think about how many cards to use, say 14 pairs, 28 cards.

Okay guys, look at the multiplication table you just made, find a 28. Okay, that means we can put down 4 rows of 7 cards. They love the game, it's a good memory exercise. And we switch it up. The point being, you're teaching them math without letting them know you're having them do math.

Also made them go through workbooks that their school uses because it becomes necessary at times to do things "their way". Still, mixing things up can bring concepts home in ways where a more vanilla path fails. And I must acknowledge that the prepared curriculum tries to do the same, except many teachers don't really know how to teach it or what it's designed to do.

I should also add that it doesn't need to get so fancy. The boys kindles had little games that were like worksheets but with some feedback for every right answer. The kids are video game trained to look for lots of little victories and it can drive them pretty fast, especially when they have an adult to occasionally back up the feedback they get from games.
 
2021-12-07 8:50:10 AM  
What kind of complete and utter failure of a person sees a knowledge gap and thinks the appropriate reaction is to hold back the kids doing better!?

Math education in the US is repetitive, slow, and taught wrong. And common core doesn't help, whatever this new California bullshiat is will actively hurt.

We need to decouple subjects from math, and teach math building on itself. Any kids that get left behind, that really sucks for you, but we cannot hold back anyone who should be soaring passed other kids. G&T programs and average learners should be raised as high as we can raise them. It is unacceptable to lower the bar or lower the cap.
 
2021-12-07 8:59:59 AM  

Quantumbunny: What kind of complete and utter failure of a person sees a knowledge gap and thinks the appropriate reaction is to hold back the kids doing better!?


media0.giphy.comView Full Size
 
2021-12-07 9:10:12 AM  

My Sober Alt: slanted


That's not the preferred nomenclature, Dude.
 
2021-12-07 9:25:39 AM  

greatgodyoshi: wademh: [startrek.com image 550x300]
[Fark user image image 746x619]

Maths education moves way too slow in US schools, and mostly because teachers are unqualified.
It's actually really easy to teach kids math because you can generate positive re-inforcement feedback like with games. The biggest barrier is attitude from adults that presume kids won't like math and that math is hard.

Feel the same way. I'm introducing my 6 year old son to multiplication. In school they're not even in double-digit addition. From everything I've encountered and talking with other parents, it seems that most kids are capable of learning far more than the standard curriculum. So we use Minecraft workbooks at home in the meantime.


I recommend IXL (there are plenty of others out there).  Kid and parent use the same account but it asks you if you are "student or parent".  You can look over the material and flag the sections you want your kid to accomplish.
 
2021-12-07 9:29:55 AM  

Don't Lag Me Bro: Yah, I felt this way about my kid's math. They were teaching my kids long division a stupid way.
I call it the 'lowest common denominator' math. Find the stupidest way to teach a math concept to kids, even if they won't use it in the future.


Why? Is there a version of long division people DO use, or have calculators been invented yet?
 
2021-12-07 9:35:25 AM  
Algebra, algebra, algebra.

It's the foundation of EVERYTHING beyond basic arithmetic, and it's what people struggle with.  I'm talking about factoring, collecting like terms, solving for unknowns, the basic symbol manipulation that turns everyone off of math because "when am I going to use this in real life?"  (Not even mentioning the grown ass adults who can't even grasp basic arithmetic and percentages).

The truth is if you're going to waste your time (and money) getting a liberal arts degree and subsequently work in a non STEM field, you'll never actually use it. (But you'll still be a dumbass, that goes without saying).

In any case, THAT'S the bottleneck here where we separate the men/women from the boys/girls.  Al. Ge. Bra.  You can't get to the higher level shiat like Calculus without it, and we farking SUCK at teaching it.

Like not emphasizing that cross multiplication is a SHORTCUT, for example, where what you're REALLY doing is multiplying both sides of the equation by one of the denominators, dividing out to equal 1, then doing it again.  Nooooooo, they just teach "cross multiplication", as if it's some kind of "rule", so the kids don't farking know what they're ACTUALLY doing, and then when you throw another term into the equation they fark it all up.  And that's just one example.  I got a shiatload more.

We teach algebra like shiat, then we let them pass the course with a 56% or a 65%, and then they move on to learning how to take a derivative (which is taught again with more of the bullshiat "math by rules" way) without that fundamental symbol manipulation foundation crystallized in their brains, and they fail miserably and throw in the towel and declare that they just suck at math and go on to take communications and women's studies in university, where they then go on to think that they're "educated" and therefore "smart" and then come on Fark to post all kinds of inane bullshiat and commit logical fallacy after logical fallacy and generally irritate the rest of us.
 
2021-12-07 9:49:12 AM  

Quantumbunny: We need to decouple subjects from math, and teach math building on itself. Any kids that get left behind, that really sucks for you, but we cannot hold back anyone who should be soaring passed other kids. G&T programs and average learners should be raised as high as we can raise them. It is unacceptable to lower the bar or lower the cap.


The GT programs are, around here, different from district to district.  My son's district automatically puts the kids in a more advanced math program but they can test into different "paths" if they desire.  I know there are two sixth graders who are already doing 8th grade math (not my son, he would need a time-turner for that)....and I'm talking GT 8th grade math, not regular 8th grade math.

Also, I don't know what is in 8th grade math, of the top of my head, so here's the difference between GT and regular *6th* grade math:

GT:
1. Bob buys 5 oranges for $3.27.  John wants to buy two of them from Bob who will sell them for their unit price.  What is the price of each orange?  How much does John pay?  What is the percentage of the total that John pays? (total points 10)

A:  3.27/5 = .654 = 65 cents.  Two oranges = $1.30, John paid $1.30.  2/5 = .40 * 100 = 40%, John paid 40%.

Teacher Grade: 2 out of 10.  .654 * 2 = 1.308 = 1.31, you forgot to round.


Regular:
1. 5 / 2 = ?  .4 * 100 = ? (total points 10)

A: Fudge

Teacher Grade: 8 out of 10, I like fudge.
 
2021-12-07 10:24:50 AM  

mudesi: Algebra, algebra, algebra.

It's the foundation of EVERYTHING beyond basic arithmetic, and it's what people struggle with.  I'm talking about factoring, collecting like terms, solving for unknowns, the basic symbol manipulation that turns everyone off of math because "when am I going to use this in real life?"  (Not even mentioning the grown ass adults who can't even grasp basic arithmetic and percentages).

The truth is if you're going to waste your time (and money) getting a liberal arts degree and subsequently work in a non STEM field, you'll never actually use it. (But you'll still be a dumbass, that goes without saying).

In any case, THAT'S the bottleneck here where we separate the men/women from the boys/girls.  Al. Ge. Bra.  You can't get to the higher level shiat like Calculus without it, and we farking SUCK at teaching it.

Like not emphasizing that cross multiplication is a SHORTCUT, for example, where what you're REALLY doing is multiplying both sides of the equation by one of the denominators, dividing out to equal 1, then doing it again.  Nooooooo, they just teach "cross multiplication", as if it's some kind of "rule", so the kids don't farking know what they're ACTUALLY doing, and then when you throw another term into the equation they fark it all up.  And that's just one example.  I got a shiatload more.

We teach algebra like shiat, then we let them pass the course with a 56% or a 65%, and then they move on to learning how to take a derivative (which is taught again with more of the bullshiat "math by rules" way) without that fundamental symbol manipulation foundation crystallized in their brains, and they fail miserably and throw in the towel and declare that they just suck at math and go on to take communications and women's studies in university, where they then go on to think that they're "educated" and therefore "smart" and then come on Fark to post all kinds of inane bullshiat and commit logical fallacy after logical fallacy and generally irri ...


Calculus calculus calculus.

It transforms the way people __think__. Even people who never actually use calculus in a direct way learn the relationships between positions, velocity, acceleration (hopefully).

Of course, if you can get to differential equations, and actually understand what's going on, then your mind is opened up even further in the ways of relating how multiple processes interact and compete to produce a result. It is possible to gain an intuition about such things without mastering the mathematics, but without mathematics that 'appreciation' is often muddled.

The thing is, just as algebra advances an ability to think abstractly, so do other progressions in mathematics. The value is not nearly so much in the ability to solve particular math problems, it is the ability to think abstractly in ways that still follow non-arbitrary rules.
 
2021-12-07 10:29:01 AM  
I have a math degree and I thought the math instruction was bad back when I was in school in the 70's and 80's, but I really question how trust worthy this Fox article is since it's couched in right wing rhetoric.  What is really being done in California?
 
2021-12-07 10:29:56 AM  
The issue (despite Fox's attempt to link it to PC culture) is that students who currently take advanced math classes take Calculus when they are juniors and then no math when they are seniors. Then when they get to college they have forgotten (almost) everything because they haven't used it in a year.

I assume since you are reading this thread you might be a math nerd.  If so, math problem advent calendar
 
2021-12-07 10:39:32 AM  
Here's a source that provides much more detail and less "OMG wokeness is killing babies" rhetoric.  It sounds like a bad reform to me, but I feel more confident saying that after reading the edsource article than the hyperbolic Fox article about "697 random people don't like it".

https://edsource.org/2021/california-math-guidance-sparks-new-curriculum-controversy-among-parents/655272

From the article:

The draft document emphasizes alternative math courses, such as data science and modeling, and structures mathematical topics by grade rather than distinct courses. But a flashpoint in the debate is the recommendation that students take the same math classes in middle school through sophomore year of high school, rather than placing students into advanced or traditional math courses beginning in sixth grade.

The recommendations also question the concept of student giftedness, saying the notion has "led to considerable inequities in mathematics education. Particularly damaging is the idea of the 'math brain'- that people are born with a brain that is suited (or not) for math," the document reads.
 
2021-12-07 10:47:03 AM  

My Sober Alt: What's really going on here?  I don't trust Fox to give me a story that's not slanted. I don't think we should cut back on advanced math classes, but is that really the whole story? Is that even what they're proposing?


Instead of having distinct classes for geometry, algebra, etc, the plan is to teach it all together in a single math class that builds in complexity. So ordinarily you'd go Algebra 1 -> Geometry -> Algebra 2 -> Pre Calc, where in this system you'd be introducing Algebra, Geometry, and pre Calc concepts as they come up. It also focuses on practical applications rather than abstract pure math. This is basically what education experts have been trying to get schools to do since the 80's.
 
2021-12-07 11:01:52 AM  

greatgodyoshi: So we use Minecraft workbooks at home in the meantime.


Hey thanks!  I had no clue this was a thing, ordering off Amazon now.

My 4 year old will love this.
 
2021-12-07 11:19:54 AM  

monkeypapa: The issue (despite Fox's attempt to link it to PC culture) is that students who currently take advanced math classes take Calculus when they are juniors and then no math when they are seniors. Then when they get to college they have forgotten (almost) everything because they haven't used it in a year.

I assume since you are reading this thread you might be a math nerd.  If so, math problem advent calendar


Oh no, now you've done it (with that link). I didn't think I was going to be doing math problems at this point in my life, but here we are.
 
2021-12-07 12:05:04 PM  

jjorsett: Some California cities are also eliminating grades of D and F from grading, using "incomplete" instead. When they say failure is not an option, they mean it.


I actually like that -- *if* there is actual follow-through on completing the education. A D or F is, "you failed, that's it" but an incomplete is, "let's go back a semester and try this again."
 
2021-12-07 4:36:58 PM  

Moriel: I have a math degree and I thought the math instruction was bad back when I was in school in the 70's and 80's, but I really question how trust worthy this Fox article is since it's couched in right wing rhetoric.  What is really being done in California?


Yeah, this is a bullshiat Fox article taking a letter about academics and spinning it to scare white, Christian people. The letter is about the scaling back of mathematic levels in K-12 not about anything having to do with wokeness. It's Fox BS straight through.
 
2021-12-07 5:35:11 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Chief Superintendent Lookout: greatgodyoshi: wademh: [startrek.com image 550x300]
[Fark user image image 746x619]

Maths education moves way too slow in US schools, and mostly because teachers are unqualified.
It's actually really easy to teach kids math because you can generate positive re-inforcement feedback like with games. The biggest barrier is attitude from adults that presume kids won't like math and that math is hard.

Feel the same way. I'm introducing my 6 year old son to multiplication. In school they're not even in double-digit addition. From everything I've encountered and talking with other parents, it seems that most kids are capable of learning far more than the standard curriculum. So we use Minecraft workbooks at home in the meantime.

Bravo to both of you, and don't back down.  Two pieces of advice I would throw out for you both (as well as others) came from two math teachers I had in college: 1) Math is simply another language.  It is no different than learning French, Spanish, or anything else; 2) there are only four operations in math -- adding, subtracting, multiplication, and division.  Everything else is window dressing.

greatgodyoshia -the biggest problem with (most) grade school teachers is their pathetic, fragile egos.  I'm talking the ones who will mark an answer incorrect because the student "Didn't solve the problem how it was taught."  Teachers are the #1 reason why students end up hating a particular subject, which is math a majority of the time.

There is only one operation in mathArithmetic: addition. Everything else is window dressingMATHEMATICS.


FTFY
 
2021-12-07 5:59:12 PM  

iaazathot: Moriel: I have a math degree and I thought the math instruction was bad back when I was in school in the 70's and 80's, but I really question how trust worthy this Fox article is since it's couched in right wing rhetoric.  What is really being done in California?

Yeah, this is a bullshiat Fox article taking a letter about academics and spinning it to scare white, Christian people. The letter is about the scaling back of mathematic levels in K-12 not about anything having to do with wokeness. It's Fox BS straight through.


Why do you hate 4th commandment "Thou shall give equal time for nutjobs"?
 
2021-12-07 6:06:28 PM  

The Smails Kid: My Sober Alt: slanted

That's not the preferred nomenclature, Dude.


Okay. but you have to admit it's higher on that side.

Fark user imageView Full Size

I mean it's off-kilter if I can use that expression.
The scales are tilted
There's something rotten in Denmark California
 
2021-12-07 9:29:15 PM  
In 7th grade public school math the teacher lightly covered monoids, groups, rings,and fields. I recall some modular arithmetic, boolean algebra, and maybe even Cantor's proof that the Reals are uncountable.

/// kids these days
 
2021-12-07 11:54:03 PM  

monkeypapa: The issue (despite Fox's attempt to link it to PC culture) is that students who currently take advanced math classes take Calculus when they are juniors and then no math when they are seniors. Then when they get to college they have forgotten (almost) everything because they haven't used it in a year.

I assume since you are reading this thread you might be a math nerd.  If so, math problem advent calendar


All of us who were attempting to sleep sincerely thank you for the further delay.
 
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