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(San Francisco Examiner)   San Francisco electeds belatedly discover basic economics   (sfexaminer.com) divider line
    More: Facepalm, Business, business tax, San Francisco supervisors, legal cannabis retailers, Tax, illegal marijuana sales, Supervisor Rafael Mandelman, cannabis businesses  
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2413 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Dec 2021 at 8:21 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-12-06 9:33:29 AM  
I've always winced a bit when I heard "legalize it and tax the hell out of it" as a pro-marijuana platform. The black market for cannabis is well established and certainly poised to undercut overpriced legal weed.

There are still moonshiners, because they can sell their product competitively versus legal booze which is taxed and regulated like crazy. They're a niche market these days, though, because you can grab a six pack from a gas station on the way home.

The pipe dream sold years ago was that cannabis taxes would fix everything. That's not realistic and really shouldn't be a burden hung solely on a product with a ready and waiting black market.

Legalize marijuana to reduce law enforcement and correctional costs. Legalize it because marijuana law is unjustly used as a bludgeon against minorities and poor people. Legalize it because it's not that big a damn deal, it's already widely available and it's a weird charade to pursue a Federal policy war against something like that. But don't create or give traction to the black market, in the process.
 
2021-12-06 8:28:09 PM  
FTA "Cannabis businesses, along with many other retailers in San Francisco, are struggling under the weight of out-of-control retail theft," Mandelman said. "San Francisco needs to do more to protect these businesses, their employees, and their customers before we hit them with a new tax."

Interesting. This kind of thing is usually covered through insurance. Democrats keep telling me that private insurance solves a lot of problems, including healthcare. Yet, here's government stepping in to directly protect people because private insurance has failed.
 
2021-12-06 8:28:13 PM  
Perhaps there's an ideal tax rate somewhere between 0% and 50%
 
2021-12-06 8:28:23 PM  
The city should give me free weed to really put my dealer out of business.
 
2021-12-06 8:28:45 PM  

beezeltown: I've always winced a bit when I heard "legalize it and tax the hell out of it" as a pro-marijuana platform. The black market for cannabis is well established and certainly poised to undercut overpriced legal weed.


People on fark were saying that state legalization would lead to gigantic surpluses of states and other taxes could be lowered.

That never happened.
 
2021-12-06 8:30:13 PM  

Wake Up Sheeple: FTA "Cannabis businesses, along with many other retailers in San Francisco, are struggling under the weight of out-of-control retail theft," Mandelman said. "San Francisco needs to do more to protect these businesses, their employees, and their customers before we hit them with a new tax."

Interesting. This kind of thing is usually covered through insurance. Democrats keep telling me that private insurance solves a lot of problems, including healthcare. Yet, here's government stepping in to directly protect people because private insurance has failed.


The other problem is that unlike Alcohol, which is difficult to make for the average Joe...pot just grows. It's much harder to tax the hell out of.

In a perfect world, they'd have priced/taxed it to just a bit less than whatever the black market was, and adjusted pricing to keep the black market out.

/but they're the incompetent government of the People's Republic of California
//with mostly peaceful shopping
/3
 
2021-12-06 8:30:53 PM  

Corvus: beezeltown: I've always winced a bit when I heard "legalize it and tax the hell out of it" as a pro-marijuana platform. The black market for cannabis is well established and certainly poised to undercut overpriced legal weed.

People on fark were saying that state legalization would lead to gigantic surpluses of states and other taxes could be lowered.

That never happened.


The tax savings is the massive bill we were paying to criminally fight a farking plant.
 
2021-12-06 8:31:38 PM  

ColonelCathcart: In a perfect world, they'd have priced/taxed it to just a bit less than whatever the black market was, and adjusted pricing to keep the black market out.


I can literally buy a years worth (LEGAL) for about the same amount it costs for one night out drinking.
 
2021-12-06 8:32:27 PM  

Yakk: Corvus: beezeltown: I've always winced a bit when I heard "legalize it and tax the hell out of it" as a pro-marijuana platform. The black market for cannabis is well established and certainly poised to undercut overpriced legal weed.

People on fark were saying that state legalization would lead to gigantic surpluses of states and other taxes could be lowered.

That never happened.

The tax savings is the massive bill we were paying to criminally fight a farking plant.


Really? Weird because my state taxes have not gone done.
 
2021-12-06 8:34:18 PM  
If a 1-5% tax is enough to drive people into armed robbery over a product, it says a lot about the kinds of people who use said product. Or maybe it says something about the general lawlessness in San Francisco. In either case, repealing the tiny tax isn't going to make a lick of difference.

Far be it from San Francisco politicians to ever proffer up a realistic solution, like getting more police on the street. No, that wouldn't be very "woke." Better to just let the drug addicts do their thing without contributing a penny back to society, that will fix the problem.
 
2021-12-06 8:35:20 PM  
Now that rich people control the logistics it's time to get rid of all the taxes on them to bury the poor black market sellers and manufacturers.
 
2021-12-06 8:36:15 PM  

beezeltown: The pipe dream sold years ago was that cannabis taxes would fix everything.


Not much different from the pipe dream of every state having a bunch of perpetually tax-generating casinos. Or the dream of cutting taxes for a corporation to merely promise to move jobs to your city/state. Or the whole funding a billion dollar stadium for a billionaire which surely that will generate tons of money.

Cities and states get outright stupid when they think they've found a shortcut to raising taxes or creating an inviting atmosphere for travelers/residents that grows the population.
 
2021-12-06 8:36:57 PM  

Wake Up Sheeple: FTA "Cannabis businesses, along with many other retailers in San Francisco, are struggling under the weight of out-of-control retail theft," Mandelman said. "San Francisco needs to do more to protect these businesses, their employees, and their customers before we hit them with a new tax."

Interesting. This kind of thing is usually covered through insurance. Democrats keep telling me that private insurance solves a lot of problems, including healthcare. Yet, here's government stepping in to directly protect people because private insurance has failed.


So increase funding for the police?
 
2021-12-06 8:38:12 PM  

DayeOfJustice: Not much different from the pipe dream of every state having a bunch of perpetually tax-generating casinos. Or the dream of cutting taxes for a corporation to merely promise to move jobs to your city/state. Or the whole funding a billion dollar stadium for a billionaire which surely that will generate tons of money.


Yeah but I know those are BS too. Don't tell people to believe your bullshiat because other people believe stupid bullshiat.
 
2021-12-06 8:40:16 PM  

anjin-san: Perhaps there's an ideal tax rate somewhere between 0% and 50%


Nonsense, this is 2021.
 
2021-12-06 8:41:28 PM  

anjin-san: Perhaps there's an ideal tax rate somewhere between 0% and 50%


I thought the Laffer Curve was a lie?
 
2021-12-06 8:45:23 PM  
Shaggy_C: If a 1-5% tax is enough to drive people into armed robbery over a product, it says a lot about the kinds of people who use said product. Or maybe it says something about the general lawlessness in San Francisco. In either case, repealing the tiny tax isn't going to make a lick of difference.

Far be it from San Francisco politicians to ever proffer up a realistic solution, like getting more police on the street. No, that wouldn't be very "woke." Better to just let the drug addicts do their thing without contributing a penny back to society, that will fix the problem.


Yeah, I'm sure the smash-and-grab looters have all been just dying to step out on the town with their new Gucci bags!
 
2021-12-06 8:45:47 PM  
But I was told in the earlier thread about pot on fark that the Democrats in congress in Washington DC control all state laws on marijuana,.

You mean they were wrong?
 
2021-12-06 8:47:01 PM  

Corvus: beezeltown: I've always winced a bit when I heard "legalize it and tax the hell out of it" as a pro-marijuana platform. The black market for cannabis is well established and certainly poised to undercut overpriced legal weed.

People on fark were saying that state legalization would lead to gigantic surpluses of states and other taxes could be lowered.

That never happened.


I thought it happened in CO.
 
2021-12-06 8:47:30 PM  

Corvus: Yakk: Corvus: beezeltown: I've always winced a bit when I heard "legalize it and tax the hell out of it" as a pro-marijuana platform. The black market for cannabis is well established and certainly poised to undercut overpriced legal weed.

People on fark were saying that state legalization would lead to gigantic surpluses of states and other taxes could be lowered.

That never happened.

The tax savings is the massive bill we were paying to criminally fight a farking plant.

Really? Weird because my state taxes have not gone done.


It's complicated because there are a lot of inputs and outputs in motion, but taxes on legal weed have (partly) kept other taxes down in Colorado. And the state income tax rate was recently lowered. This is mostly due to the "TABOR" amendment that, despite some recent loosening, generally prevents state or local governments from increasing taxes or even keeping tax revenues that outpace inflation + population growth.
 
2021-12-06 8:48:14 PM  

Shaggy_C: If a 1-5% tax is enough to drive people into armed robbery over a product, it says a lot about the kinds of people who use said product. Or maybe it says something about the general lawlessness in San Francisco. In either case, repealing the tiny tax isn't going to make a lick of difference.

Far be it from San Francisco politicians to ever proffer up a realistic solution, like getting more police on the street. No, that wouldn't be very "woke." Better to just let the drug addicts do their thing without contributing a penny back to society, that will fix the problem.


It's a total of about 25% in the state of California across the board but go on ahead we know who you are.
 
2021-12-06 8:49:25 PM  
Supes???

Seriously?
 
2021-12-06 8:51:08 PM  

OccamsWhiskers: Corvus: Yakk: Corvus: beezeltown: I've always winced a bit when I heard "legalize it and tax the hell out of it" as a pro-marijuana platform. The black market for cannabis is well established and certainly poised to undercut overpriced legal weed.

People on fark were saying that state legalization would lead to gigantic surpluses of states and other taxes could be lowered.

That never happened.

The tax savings is the massive bill we were paying to criminally fight a farking plant.

Really? Weird because my state taxes have not gone done.

It's complicated because there are a lot of inputs and outputs in motion, but taxes on legal weed have (partly) kept other taxes down in Colorado. And the state income tax rate was recently lowered. This is mostly due to the "TABOR" amendment that, despite some recent loosening, generally prevents state or local governments from increasing taxes or even keeping tax revenues that outpace inflation + population growth.


At least Colorado didn't fark itself like California did by enshrining a state appropriations limit into its constitution.
 
2021-12-06 8:52:01 PM  

ColonelCathcart: Wake Up Sheeple: FTA "Cannabis businesses, along with many other retailers in San Francisco, are struggling under the weight of out-of-control retail theft," Mandelman said. "San Francisco needs to do more to protect these businesses, their employees, and their customers before we hit them with a new tax."

Interesting. This kind of thing is usually covered through insurance. Democrats keep telling me that private insurance solves a lot of problems, including healthcare. Yet, here's government stepping in to directly protect people because private insurance has failed.

The other problem is that unlike Alcohol, which is difficult to make for the average Joe...pot just grows. It's much harder to tax the hell out of.

In a perfect world, they'd have priced/taxed it to just a bit less than whatever the black market was, and adjusted pricing to keep the black market out.

/but they're the incompetent government of the People's Republic of California
//with mostly peaceful shopping
/3


Growing good shiat isnt trivial, in terms of resources and effort.
 
2021-12-06 8:53:57 PM  

Corvus: ColonelCathcart: In a perfect world, they'd have priced/taxed it to just a bit less than whatever the black market was, and adjusted pricing to keep the black market out.

I can literally buy a years worth (LEGAL) for about the same amount it costs for one night out drinking.


You either don't smoke that much, or drink way too much.
 
2021-12-06 8:54:28 PM  

Wake Up Sheeple: FTA "Cannabis businesses, along with many other retailers in San Francisco, are struggling under the weight of out-of-control retail theft," Mandelman said. "San Francisco needs to do more to protect these businesses, their employees, and their customers before we hit them with a new tax."

Interesting. This kind of thing is usually covered through insurance. Democrats keep telling me that private insurance solves a lot of problems, including healthcare. Yet, here's government stepping in to directly protect people because private insurance has failed.


How many of these awesome joints I bought in San Francisco last week do you want to bet that insurance rates - assuming you could find a reinsurer for your cash-only farking target of a business  that even to this day cannot work with legitimate financial institutions because reasons - are utterly prohibitive?
 
2021-12-06 8:55:06 PM  

Corvus: ColonelCathcart: In a perfect world, they'd have priced/taxed it to just a bit less than whatever the black market was, and adjusted pricing to keep the black market out.

I can literally buy a years worth (LEGAL) for about the same amount it costs for one night out drinking.


You're either buying garbage weed or very very expensive liquor
 
2021-12-06 8:55:18 PM  
Have they?

Pretty sure they still have one of the most ridiculous housing debacles in the nation, courtesy those same elected officials.

/yes i see tfa's about weed
//no they still haven't discovered basic econ, since that housing crisis has been happening for ~25 yrs
 
2021-12-06 8:56:36 PM  

My Klezmer Metal Cover Band: Wake Up Sheeple: FTA "Cannabis businesses, along with many other retailers in San Francisco, are struggling under the weight of out-of-control retail theft," Mandelman said. "San Francisco needs to do more to protect these businesses, their employees, and their customers before we hit them with a new tax."

Interesting. This kind of thing is usually covered through insurance. Democrats keep telling me that private insurance solves a lot of problems, including healthcare. Yet, here's government stepping in to directly protect people because private insurance has failed.

How many of these awesome joints I bought in San Francisco last week do you want to bet that insurance rates - assuming you could find a reinsurer for your cash-only farking target of a business  that even to this day cannot work with legitimate financial institutions because reasons - are utterly prohibitive?


Thanks for backing me up on the failure of private insurance.
 
2021-12-06 8:56:48 PM  
also the entire SF zoning board should be lined up and socked in the genitals until they're on the precipice of moving to another plane of existence
 
2021-12-06 8:56:48 PM  

Thank You Black Jesus!: Corvus: ColonelCathcart: In a perfect world, they'd have priced/taxed it to just a bit less than whatever the black market was, and adjusted pricing to keep the black market out.

I can literally buy a years worth (LEGAL) for about the same amount it costs for one night out drinking.

You're either buying garbage weed or very very expensive liquor


I spent 8k on liquor in one night so anything is possible but I was trying to do that math as well.
 
2021-12-06 9:03:14 PM  
Dumbest thing I have ever heard.

San Francisco voters approved the tax in Nov. 2018, which imposes a 1% to 5% citywide tax on gross receipts from cannabis businesses. The tax is set to go into effect on Jan. 1, 2022.

Any problems they have were not caused by this law, voted in years ago, because it isn't in effect.
And it is only 1-5%, that isn't particularly onerous.

Sure, buy cheaper weed off the street and wonder what crap was used on it (pesticides, dog piss, meth lab), but paying $25 an 1/8th is going to ruin you because BLANK has X in the alley for $20.
Maybe smoke 1/5th less? Yes, it is possible.

This is a serious case of creating an issue that doesn't exist.
But no, really, tell me how it is...
 
2021-12-06 9:03:50 PM  

Corvus: ColonelCathcart: In a perfect world, they'd have priced/taxed it to just a bit less than whatever the black market was, and adjusted pricing to keep the black market out.

I can literally buy a years worth (LEGAL) for about the same amount it costs for one night out drinking.


I haven't priced out ounces when I've visited retailers, but I get mine (illegally) for $300, smoke one hitters daily and have made it last nearly a year, so about a dollar a day.  Does your 'night out drinking' involve bottle service of Johnny Walker Blue, strip clubs or both?
 
2021-12-06 9:04:26 PM  
It's cheaper here in CO, after tax then what I was paying in high school in the 80's. I have no idea what the current street price is because I never knew a guy and still don't.
 
2021-12-06 9:06:11 PM  

Por que tan serioso: Thank You Black Jesus!: Corvus: ColonelCathcart: In a perfect world, they'd have priced/taxed it to just a bit less than whatever the black market was, and adjusted pricing to keep the black market out.

I can literally buy a years worth (LEGAL) for about the same amount it costs for one night out drinking.

You're either buying garbage weed or very very expensive liquor

I spent 8k on liquor in one night so anything is possible but I was trying to do that math as well.


Crap I don't think I've spent 8k in the last 6-8 years combined on booze.

Probably spend around 2k a year on weed.

Back when I used to make a lot more money than I do now, I spent maybe 10k a year on booze and 6k a year on weed.  I smoke about the same amount, I just no longer live in NYC....so no NYC prices or salary.
 
2021-12-06 9:08:05 PM  
I imagine the challenge is convenience, presuming only dispensaries can sell weed (instead of any 7-11, Circle-K, Texaco, supermarket, etc.) that is allowing the black market to remain competitive.

If I had to choose between driving to one of a handful of dispensaries allowed in a given area, or meet up with someone nearby?  Guess which option is gonna be popular.
 
2021-12-06 9:09:12 PM  

beezeltown: I've always winced a bit when I heard "legalize it and tax the hell out of it" as a pro-marijuana platform. The black market for cannabis is well established and certainly poised to undercut overpriced legal weed.

There are still moonshiners, because they can sell their product competitively versus legal booze which is taxed and regulated like crazy. They're a niche market these days, though, because you can grab a six pack from a gas station on the way home.

The pipe dream sold years ago was that cannabis taxes would fix everything. That's not realistic and really shouldn't be a burden hung solely on a product with a ready and waiting black market.

Legalize marijuana to reduce law enforcement and correctional costs. Legalize it because marijuana law is unjustly used as a bludgeon against minorities and poor people. Legalize it because it's not that big a damn deal, it's already widely available and it's a weird charade to pursue a Federal policy war against something like that. But don't create or give traction to the black market, in the process.


A reasonable tax rate would be okay and desirable.  I am talking about a couple cents on the dollar, in addition to the normal sales tax, and not something that would 8nxrease tge price considerably.

You then make it so that anyone who has a license to sell alcohol can also sell marijuana products.
 
2021-12-06 9:16:16 PM  
How about starting down at plain ol' sales tax if anything? Excise taxes make some sense when a market would be better off dead and legal sales might as well be the only sales occurring. It doesn't make much sense when you're trying to compete with underground sales to do anything but race to the bottom until they leave the market.
 
2021-12-06 9:17:05 PM  
retailer BASA, located on Grove Street. The burglary was the fifth at the location, according to Mandelman's office.

"Cannabis businesses, along with many other retailers in San Francisco, are struggling under the weight of out-of-control retail theft," Mandelman said. "San Francisco needs to do more to protect these businesses, their employees, and their customers before we hit them with a new tax."


Mabye they should try defunding the police; that usually works.
 
2021-12-06 9:26:50 PM  

ar393: Por que tan serioso: Thank You Black Jesus!: Corvus: ColonelCathcart: In a perfect world, they'd have priced/taxed it to just a bit less than whatever the black market was, and adjusted pricing to keep the black market out.

I can literally buy a years worth (LEGAL) for about the same amount it costs for one night out drinking.

You're either buying garbage weed or very very expensive liquor

I spent 8k on liquor in one night so anything is possible but I was trying to do that math as well.

Crap I don't think I've spent 8k in the last 6-8 years combined on booze.

Probably spend around 2k a year on weed.

Back when I used to make a lot more money than I do now, I spent maybe 10k a year on booze and 6k a year on weed.  I smoke about the same amount, I just no longer live in NYC....so no NYC prices or salary.


NYC? You didn't mention the coke budget
 
2021-12-06 9:30:14 PM  
Move to Massachusetts, where we did the legalization thing right.   Who threw the damn tea in the harbor anyway?
 
2021-12-06 9:30:22 PM  

Wake Up Sheeple: My Klezmer Metal Cover Band: Wake Up Sheeple: FTA "Cannabis businesses, along with many other retailers in San Francisco, are struggling under the weight of out-of-control retail theft," Mandelman said. "San Francisco needs to do more to protect these businesses, their employees, and their customers before we hit them with a new tax."

Interesting. This kind of thing is usually covered through insurance. Democrats keep telling me that private insurance solves a lot of problems, including healthcare. Yet, here's government stepping in to directly protect people because private insurance has failed.

How many of these awesome joints I bought in San Francisco last week do you want to bet that insurance rates - assuming you could find a reinsurer for your cash-only farking target of a business  that even to this day cannot work with legitimate financial institutions because reasons - are utterly prohibitive?

Thanks for backing me up on the failure of private insurance.


Except in this case, the market failure is at least partially explained by a government policy. Specifically, the larger and more financially sound insurance companies won't touch a cannabis business while the product is still federally illegal. Not for theft, not for crop loss, not for D&O/E&O coverage.
 
2021-12-06 9:32:00 PM  
Store bought weed isn't going to be spiked with anything, I'll pay extra just for that.
 
2021-12-06 9:37:17 PM  

Wake Up Sheeple: FTA "Cannabis businesses, along with many other retailers in San Francisco, are struggling under the weight of out-of-control retail theft," Mandelman said. "San Francisco needs to do more to protect these businesses, their employees, and their customers before we hit them with a new tax."


I would guess that that retail theft is going to continue happening, city tax or no city tax, until the local weed retailers start doing business with a higher class of drug abuser.

beezeltown:

Legalize marijuana to reduce law enforcement and correctional costs.

Does legalizing do that?  Got any relevant figures?  I note in this context that possession of small amounts for use had been decriminalized in California long before legal at retail launched back in 2018.
 
2021-12-06 9:43:06 PM  

jaivirtualcard: Supes???

Seriously?


We actually use that term here in SF when talking about the supervisors.
 
2021-12-06 9:50:27 PM  

Manfred J. Hattan: Wake Up Sheeple: My Klezmer Metal Cover Band: Wake Up Sheeple: FTA "Cannabis businesses, along with many other retailers in San Francisco, are struggling under the weight of out-of-control retail theft," Mandelman said. "San Francisco needs to do more to protect these businesses, their employees, and their customers before we hit them with a new tax."

Interesting. This kind of thing is usually covered through insurance. Democrats keep telling me that private insurance solves a lot of problems, including healthcare. Yet, here's government stepping in to directly protect people because private insurance has failed.

How many of these awesome joints I bought in San Francisco last week do you want to bet that insurance rates - assuming you could find a reinsurer for your cash-only farking target of a business  that even to this day cannot work with legitimate financial institutions because reasons - are utterly prohibitive?

Thanks for backing me up on the failure of private insurance.

Except in this case, the market failure is at least partially explained by a government policy. Specifically, the larger and more financially sound insurance companies won't touch a cannabis business while the product is still federally illegal. Not for theft, not for crop loss, not for D&O/E&O coverage.


So private insurance is failing to do the right thing? Interesting. Thanks for backing me up.
 
2021-12-06 9:53:22 PM  

jaivirtualcard: Supes???

Seriously?


Yeah, I thought this was going to have to do with rent.
 
2021-12-06 9:56:05 PM  
of any of you farkers live in the city or bay area,Elevated on bayshore blvd is good place. parking isn't bad either.
 
2021-12-06 9:58:11 PM  

tirob: I would guess that that retail theft is going to continue happening, city tax or no city tax, until the local weed retailers start doing business with a higher class of drug abuser.


It's because their drug "abusers" are in the wealthy class that the city is doing anything at all.
 
2021-12-06 10:00:50 PM  

muck1969: I imagine the challenge is convenience, presuming only dispensaries can sell weed (instead of any 7-11, Circle-K, Texaco, supermarket, etc.) that is allowing the black market to remain competitive.

If I had to choose between driving to one of a handful of dispensaries allowed in a given area, or meet up with someone nearby?  Guess which option is gonna be popular.


The farking dispensaries, in the places where the shiat is legal(ish), are plentiful. They are everywhere. There's a stretch of Ventura Blvd. that I'm pretty sure is just one long dispensary interspersed with the occasional CrossFit joint or Kellerized BBQ. Hell, I wandered into the wrong one last week in SF - at least, not the one I intended to go to because, let's face it, I may have already been high - and it couldn't have mattered less. (Although to be fair the place I accidentally patronized did, in retrospect, seem to have much cooler taste in décor, for very ornate, very plush values of 'cooler.' Can't imagine the weed was any different though.) Last time I was trapped in that strange little patch of disconnected suburbia out by the Denver airport - if you've never been there, just imagine five or six intersections of your local commercial suburb lifted wholesale and plopped into a prairie a propos nothing - I counted seven dispensaries. (One was cleverly next door to a donut shop so no one really needs to guess how I spent the layover, eh?)

If you'd rather meet Jimmy down the alleyway that's a personal choice. I'll take the places with the astoundingly pretty 'bud tenders' every time. Not least because I always learn some new shiat or get whacked on with some crazy new dab or something. And they always ask such penetrating questions about my habits, preferences and usage; these people take the ol' jazz cabbage far more seriously and professionally than any illicit dealer I've ever met.
 
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