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(CleanTechnica)   HOAs, EVs, and innumeracy. Looks like we hit the triple point of bad risk assessment   (cleantechnica.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, Battery electric vehicle, Automobile, Electric car, Electric vehicle, fire hazards, Plug-in hybrid, Internal combustion engine, EV fire  
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1702 clicks; posted to STEM » on 04 Dec 2021 at 8:17 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



26 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-12-04 5:05:18 PM  
If your condo association is basing their policy on ZeroHedge, you should sell.  Right now, even at a loss, because it's going to get worse.
 
2021-12-04 5:41:21 PM  
The only think an HOA should do is prohibit the mixing of 2700K & 5000K Christmas lights.

I mean, come on!
 
2021-12-04 5:52:27 PM  
1. F*ck HOAs
2. Gasoline cars can burn too, even easier than EVs
2a. As an example, this fire in Norway which destroyed 300 cars was initially blamed on an EV, but the culprit was later found to be a diesel vehicle:
pbs.twimg.comView Full Size
 
2021-12-04 7:20:53 PM  
These nutjobs will go out of their way to hate on anything sensible.
 
2021-12-04 8:35:10 PM  

edmo: These nutjobs will go out of their way to hate on anything sensible.


The kind of person who is on an HOA board is exactly the kind of petty bullying busybody who shouldn't be in charge of a dollhouse let alone other people's homes.
 
2021-12-04 8:42:39 PM  
I, for one, look forward to their complete rational rationale for banning hydrogen powered vehicles.

(I would follow that with a joke about the website they'd reference, but... I mean, they already referenced ZeroHedge, so...yeah...)
 
2021-12-04 8:54:24 PM  
What about all the lithium batteries currently in use in probably every unit?  Those catch fire, and are hard to extinguish.  Yeah, you might find it sooner, but you're not going to put it out.

Then there are space heaters, electric blankets, etc., that have caused structure fires.  Any of that stuff banned?
 
2021-12-04 9:06:50 PM  

indy_kid: What about all the lithium batteries currently in use in probably every unit?  Those catch fire, and are hard to extinguish.  Yeah, you might find it sooner, but you're not going to put it out.

Then there are space heaters, electric blankets, etc., that have caused structure fires.  Any of that stuff banned?


All of that stuff, much like an EV, is none of the HOA's god damn business.
 
2021-12-04 9:13:38 PM  
Wanna bet they ban residents who've been vaccinated for COVID too?
 
2021-12-04 9:58:28 PM  

jayphat: indy_kid: What about all the lithium batteries currently in use in probably every unit?  Those catch fire, and are hard to extinguish.  Yeah, you might find it sooner, but you're not going to put it out.

Then there are space heaters, electric blankets, etc., that have caused structure fires.  Any of that stuff banned?

All of that stuff, much like an EV, is none of the HOA's god damn business.


It's the insurance company's business. But the insurer doesn't seem to be factoring into this story at all.
 
2021-12-04 10:40:30 PM  
I think the gas powered cars in the garage would be more of a hazard than the EV
 
2021-12-04 10:49:56 PM  

Chagrin: jayphat: indy_kid: What about all the lithium batteries currently in use in probably every unit?  Those catch fire, and are hard to extinguish.  Yeah, you might find it sooner, but you're not going to put it out.

Then there are space heaters, electric blankets, etc., that have caused structure fires.  Any of that stuff banned?

All of that stuff, much like an EV, is none of the HOA's god damn business.

It's the insurance company's business. But the insurer doesn't seem to be factoring into this story at all.


That's not the difference. The difference is that all of that stuff is plugged in in your unit and you pay for it. The power in the garage is paid for by the condo board. Once they figure out how to get you to pay for your power in the garage separate from your condo fees this ban will go away.
 
2021-12-04 11:57:03 PM  

SMB2811: Chagrin: jayphat: indy_kid: What about all the lithium batteries currently in use in probably every unit?  Those catch fire, and are hard to extinguish.  Yeah, you might find it sooner, but you're not going to put it out.

Then there are space heaters, electric blankets, etc., that have caused structure fires.  Any of that stuff banned?

All of that stuff, much like an EV, is none of the HOA's god damn business.

It's the insurance company's business. But the insurer doesn't seem to be factoring into this story at all.

That's not the difference. The difference is that all of that stuff is plugged in in your unit and you pay for it. The power in the garage is paid for by the condo board. Once they figure out how to get you to pay for your power in the garage separate from your condo fees this ban will go away.


Speaking of insurance companies, I sense the heavy hand of an insurance company lawyer in this.

/even the actuaries are powerless against the lawyers
 
2021-12-05 2:51:35 AM  
Old people are easily frightened by new things.
 
2021-12-05 3:30:49 AM  

make me some tea: 1. F*ck HOAs
2. Gasoline cars can burn too, even easier than EVs
2a. As an example, this fire in Norway which destroyed 300 cars was initially blamed on an EV, but the culprit was later found to be a diesel vehicle:[pbs.twimg.com image 850x478]


Diesel is not gasoline. It's much, much more difficult to light on fire.

Can You Light DIESEL With A Match?! | Ex-Machinery
Youtube 7soVqyGq4i4


I very much doubt that car fire was caused by its fuel.
 
2021-12-05 6:57:28 AM  

Enigmamf: make me some tea: 1. F*ck HOAs
2. Gasoline cars can burn too, even easier than EVs
2a. As an example, this fire in Norway which destroyed 300 cars was initially blamed on an EV, but the culprit was later found to be a diesel vehicle:[pbs.twimg.com image 850x478]

Diesel is not gasoline. It's much, much more difficult to light on fire.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/7soVqyGq4i4]

I very much doubt that car fire was caused by its fuel.


This.  I once watched an E7 educate an O1 by putting out his cigarette in a bucket of diesel.  It never occurred to me to ask him why there was a bucket of diesel there (it wasn't even close to full but still) but it was still funny to watch the young kid flinch.
 
2021-12-05 8:45:21 AM  
I'm going with a busybody HOA board member has a personal issue with a resident who owns an EV.
 
2021-12-05 10:04:22 AM  

sleze: Enigmamf: make me some tea: 1. F*ck HOAs
2. Gasoline cars can burn too, even easier than EVs
2a. As an example, this fire in Norway which destroyed 300 cars was initially blamed on an EV, but the culprit was later found to be a diesel vehicle:[pbs.twimg.com image 850x478]

Diesel is not gasoline. It's much, much more difficult to light on fire.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/7soVqyGq4i4]

I very much doubt that car fire was caused by its fuel.

This.  I once watched an E7 educate an O1 by putting out his cigarette in a bucket of diesel.  It never occurred to me to ask him why there was a bucket of diesel there (it wasn't even close to full but still) but it was still funny to watch the young kid flinch.


The source of ignition in the Norway airport parking structure fire was determined to be a 2005 Opel Zafira with faulty wiring, a turbodiesel model which has been discontinued.
 
2021-12-05 10:27:07 AM  

sleze: Enigmamf: make me some tea: 1. F*ck HOAs
2. Gasoline cars can burn too, even easier than EVs
2a. As an example, this fire in Norway which destroyed 300 cars was initially blamed on an EV, but the culprit was later found to be a diesel vehicle:[pbs.twimg.com image 850x478]

Diesel is not gasoline. It's much, much more difficult to light on fire.

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/7soVqyGq4i4]

I very much doubt that car fire was caused by its fuel.

This.  I once watched an E7 educate an O1 by putting out his cigarette in a bucket of diesel.  It never occurred to me to ask him why there was a bucket of diesel there (it wasn't even close to full but still) but it was still funny to watch the young kid flinch.


This is a Navy tradition.  I did the same thing to an O1 but with jet fuel.
Later in life, long after I had left the Navy, I was transporting 10 gallons of leaded race fuel in a sealed container in the trunk of an ice-racing car.  Buddy of mine that rode along with was freaking out about the race fuel, claiming that anything could set it off and it'd blow up.  A couple days later we were back at my house, and I was topping up the race fuel in the tank, and spilled a little bit on the driveway when removing the can from the filler tube.  I grabbed my buddy's cigarette and put it out in the puddle.  He flinched and ran for the garage.  Nothing happened of course.  But at least he no longer acted like a fool when transporting race fuel.
 
2021-12-05 11:22:49 AM  
I mean fook HOAs, but i'm not down wiht lies, damned lies and statics either so fook that and those bad actors equally as hard.

The thing i find a bit off in their example defense from CNN:

'However, if you were to read through the articles, even CNN pointed out that an EV is less likely to catch fire than a gas car is."

Is a situaiotn of lies, damned lies, and statistics.


It's not a question of, hours on the road driven and not caught on fire, flatly alone.
And the driving situaiotn seems to be less important to the matter at hand.


A car being driven  is a car that has someone wiht it, watching it/monitoring it, and if it catches on fire, someone is there to warn others and maybe attempt to  do something about it.

However a car sitting in a garage overnight is a very different model situation to be in than being driven.
Here, we assume no one is with the car and if it catches on fire, it is far more likely to do real damage or cause harm, if the fire is not noticed and gets large/catches a house/other cars/building on fire.

The "statistics" part of it all from the linked CNN article in the fark linked one.

"Tesla claims that gasoline powered cars are about 11 times more likely to catch fire than a Tesla. It says the best comparison is fires per 1 billion miles driven. It says the 300,000 Teslas on the road have been driven a total of 7.5 billion miles, and about 40 fires have been reported. That works out to five fires for every billion miles traveled, compared to a rate of 55 fires per billion miles traveled in gasoline cars. "


They are making it look like the driving time matters here, as if it is about driving and fires, so relating this to when we are driving that it matters. But it's not then that this matters, this stat about EVs catching on fire relates far more to the parked time not the driven millage.
Take the number of hours cars are parked, gas and electric, and divide that by the number of fires they report.

Go on, won't even care if you use fires that happen while driving and parked against just parked time, not driven time or millage.

Kinda betting that when we look at how many fires per parked hour this stats looks a bit different.


And then the next big stats that would matter, total cost of property damage and number of lives lost due to.
Again, the fire that starts in a  car that has someone present wiht it at the time, seems far less likely to get out of hand as often and spread to cause a lot more damage or loss of life. Compared to a fire that starts, when parked in a garage, when no one is around to notice it until it is noticeable from farther away?

So fook HOAs, but hey kinda bet a lot f people that have enough in a condo, they'd not like the idea of newly add extra fire risk past what they already have to live with/what they signed on for didn't already include.

No one with chips on the table already, are going to think it's cool when the casino alters the payout odds for their bet, even by just a little.
 
2021-12-05 12:15:25 PM  
I hate to defend an HOA, but...

There was a discussion (probably on here, maybe slashdot), where they had been an EV that burned, and the discussion was about if pure water made sense, or if they should be using pure water.  And someone linked to advice from Tesla about how much water to put on an EV fire.

I can't find the discussion, but after a fire this summer, there were a lot of articles talking about how much water it takes: 30-40k gallons.  I think Tesla said it took 20k.

But even at 20k, in the discussion of the guys floating a scissor lift to work on a pool roof, we learned that a typical tanker truck (not a fire engine with water tanks) is 7k gallons.   That's a lot of water.

So what sort of water flow is there on the sprinklers in that garage?  They would've been sized for gas engine vehicles, which require less water.

And fires that get out of control cause damage to buildings... steel loses strength as it heats, concrete can explode if there's water trapped in it that is suddenly heated.  And this could lead to collapse of the structure.

You can talk all you want about frequency of fires, but it's like floods-- you can survive an infinite number of 10 foot floods with a 12 year flood wall,  A 15 foot flood is still going to fark you.

Maybe the garage could be retrofitted with a different fire suppression system.

I expect that we'll see more research into this (and possible home insurance adjustments) in the future because of EVs.

/civil engineering degree that I've done almost nothing with
//has built an EV (that won the 1995 World Solar Rallye)
 
2021-12-05 12:41:56 PM  
Well keep in mind that they just told every leaf owner not to park them in an enclosed space so.....
 
2021-12-05 1:17:23 PM  
Bolt owners have been issued a set of contradictory warnings not to charge their Bolts indoors, or outdoors, or at all, until the batteries have been replaced, which is taking a long time.  If you live in a "multi-family" structure, it isn't just your call--other people who live in the same building are going to get upset about those warnings, especially since they derive no benefit from the car that might burn the place down.
 
2021-12-05 6:01:20 PM  
The idea of putting a car full of energy (in battery or fuel) in a building has always been risky.  On a cold but sunny Christmas day long ago a neighbor filled up their car and parked it in their garage.  The fuel expanded, leaked out out and was set off by the water heater.  They were the paranoid type and had theft bars on their windows and were stuck.  Had some of us not been working on our treehouse at the time, they wouldn't have made it since someone used the large board to pry the bars off their window.

Around here a typical non-office business is made with preformed concrete walls. The fire department won't enter buildings made that way because they are attached with just a few small welds and if they are damaged by the heat, they tilt up slabs and fall down and once one goes down, the others tend to follow quickly with the roof.

The great fire of London changed how buildings were built but it seems that is simply an afterthought to most modern architects. I know of several entire villages that were completely wiped out even though the houses were all fairly new.

Oneiros: //has built an EV (that won the 1995 World Solar Rallye)


I helped with Aurora for a wile. One of early ones caught fire in the battery/charging circuit which got the battery real hot.  The helpful highway patrol officer told the driver not to use his special fire extinguisher and insisted on using the water based one.  The fire didn't get going real well until the magnesium wheel caught fire.  The damage was so bad that they had to fix the road and the fire could be seen from the camp many miles away.
 
2021-12-05 7:00:47 PM  

DON.MAC: Oneiros: //has built an EV (that won the 1995 World Solar Rallye)

I helped with Aurora for a wile. One of early ones caught fire in the battery/charging circuit which got the battery real hot.  The helpful highway patrol officer told the driver not to use his special fire extinguisher and insisted on using the water based one.  The fire didn't get going real well until the magnesium wheel caught fire.  The damage was so bad that they had to fix the road and the fire could be seen from the camp many miles away.


I've been wondering since the discussion of how much water Tesla was saying it took to put them out-

Are there any specialty chemicals to suppress the fire that are small enough to add to the cars?

It's really a question of what you're trying to do.  Magnesium can continue to burn under water, Lithium will catch fire when exposed to water, so I assume they're using the volume of water to cool off the process, and just trying to slow it down, not stop it.

Because it would seem to me that if you had some sort of canister with a temperature release that you could put in the battery compartment, that could dramatically help things.

Of course, you'd need something that could either completely contain the fire, or at least wouldn't cause more problems if you then added water.

And it would have to be relatively small, and light, as carrying around 50-100lbs of fire suppression equipment is going to make people question the safety of the cars, and affect their mileage.

I suspect that you would also need a larger battery compartment, so there were channels to get the fire retardant throughout the compartment

And you'd have to figure out what temperature to have it trigger.  You wouldn't want to drive through Death Valley and have your car decide to self destruct leaving you stranded

/has also wondered if you could make systems to put in attics of houses in California to spray foam just as the forest fire was getting there.
//looked a while back and saw systems that spray from a distance (to get under the eaves) but it seemed really slow
 
2021-12-06 12:52:40 AM  
There have been attempts at designs to allow a fire truck to pump water through cooling pipes in batteries.  I don't think that is a real world solution.  A solution to garage fires is to pull the burning car out of the garage and deal with it separately.  I have seen photos of it having been done but I'm not sure what the real world issues are with that. A simple tow line can break and be deadly in ant direction when it snaps so I can't see to many people wanting to try it.
 
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