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(CBS Sports)   MLB owners locked out the players at midnight. So what does that mean?   (cbssports.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Major League Baseball, Major League Baseball players, team owners, form of a lockout, Trade union, players' strike, work stoppage, worst-case scenario  
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387 clicks; posted to Sports » on 02 Dec 2021 at 12:55 PM (24 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



38 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-12-02 12:24:27 PM  
Players can go across the street and start a new league. With backjack and hookers.
 
2021-12-02 12:59:36 PM  
Four-day weekend?
 
2021-12-02 1:02:27 PM  
It means the owners simply wanted to prevent players from striking first and gaining what leverage that would bring.

A lockout doesn't really give any added leverage to the owners it just denies some to the players.
 
2021-12-02 1:09:18 PM  

Olympic Trolling Judge: Four-day weekend?


They'll have to stay with their aunt for a little while?
 
2021-12-02 1:12:14 PM  
It means this is a repeat?
 
2021-12-02 1:18:20 PM  

grimlock1972: A lockout doesn't really give any added leverage to the owners it just denies some to the players.


Levers. How do they work?
 
2021-12-02 1:30:47 PM  
The owners know that there will be a fight so they wanted to start early when the players may see a downside to losing access to facilities in the offseason.
 
2021-12-02 1:31:07 PM  
It means that all the baseball games for the next two months are cancelled.  The gates at my local ballpark are all locked up today.
 
2021-12-02 1:31:54 PM  
Nothing
 
2021-12-02 1:32:47 PM  
It means they must find the jade monkey before the next full moon.
 
2021-12-02 1:42:30 PM  
When's truck day?  February 15th-ish?  Can we at least get the negotiating points in writing this week?

I need to know if this is a "rewrite the CBA to include salary adjustments for ticket sales during a pandemic because none of us saw that coming"
or is it more about owners who can't collude and then spend themselves into trouble?

Or is Las Vegas pissed again that they're not in control of the betting margins because of pine tar & sunscreen and steroids and trash cans?
 
2021-12-02 1:53:42 PM  
The only thing that matters to me as a "meh" baseball fan (so who really gives a shiat what I think) is some sort of salary cap/floor.  Don't know if it will even make the top 5 list of things they'll fight to the death about.

/Guardians "Fan"... yeah I said it...
 
2021-12-02 2:01:30 PM  
It means Fark the Astros*
 
2021-12-02 2:03:57 PM  

Fizpez: The only thing that matters to me as a "meh" baseball fan (so who really gives a shiat what I think) is some sort of salary cap/floor.  Don't know if it will even make the top 5 list of things they'll fight to the death about.

/Guardians "Fan"... yeah I said it...


The luxury tax already serves as a pretty effective soft cap.

What issue do you believe a hard cap would be addressing?
 
2021-12-02 2:09:55 PM  
The average MLB salary has been stagnant or decreasing for the past several years and actually fell this year. This despite steadily rising profits pre-pandemic.

https://www.usnews.com/news/sports/articles/2021-02-04/ap-newsbreak-mlb-average-salary-fell-for-3rd-straight-year

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31270164/average-mlb-salary-417-million-48-2019
 
2021-12-02 2:12:43 PM  

The Bestest: The luxury tax already serves as a pretty effective soft cap.


Yup. Outside of a few teams (the usual suspects - Yanks, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc) that will exceed it for a year or two before dropping back under, the other teams either don't want to go anywhere near it, or will spend right up to it but no further. (The Phillies, for example, claimed they were going to spend lots of money, got Bryce Harper partially as part of that promise, and then... refused to pay for almost anyone else.)

There's no reason for a hard cap, or even an NBA-style "cap w/ exceptions", for MLB. Now, a *floor* of some sort, whether it be a hard amount or some percentage of the median payroll, is a completely different thing. Spending more money might not make the Marlins or Pirates more competitive, but at least it would force them to *pretend* to care.
 
2021-12-02 2:15:16 PM  
Hey, if the owners manage to bring players' salaries down then they'll be sure to pass the savings on to us in the form of lower ticket prices, right? Right?!?

/Fark the owners
 
2021-12-02 2:20:11 PM  

The Bestest: Fizpez: The only thing that matters to me as a "meh" baseball fan (so who really gives a shiat what I think) is some sort of salary cap/floor.  Don't know if it will even make the top 5 list of things they'll fight to the death about.

/Guardians "Fan"... yeah I said it...

The luxury tax already serves as a pretty effective soft cap.

What issue do you believe a hard cap would be addressing?


Honestly as a Cleveland fan I'm MORE interested in a hard floor.  But if I'm being honest even the luxury tax isnt a hard enough cap.... the "rich" teams already have a huge money advantage and being able to eeek out even a little bit more flexibility by going just a bit beyond the soft cap limit (even at a significant penalty) still rubs me the wrong way.

It's utterly unrealistic but personally I'd like to see a upper and lower cap limit separated by about $50M and let coaching and talent development decide things, not which owner has the deepest pockets.
 
2021-12-02 2:20:27 PM  
preview.redd.itView Full Size
 
2021-12-02 2:25:03 PM  
It looks like the other thread might be dunzo so double posting.

This lockout has been talked about for well over a year now. I'm surprised a lot of people above felt the need to comment on it as if it was breaking news, then quickly start trashing the owners.

For a very detailed CBA history, you all should look this over:
https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/league-info/cba-history/

I am in no way defending the owners, but when the MLBPA consistently complains about terms in contracts they signed, it's kind of their fault. Team Management is paying players with unprecedented contracts. Historically, teams paid veterans for past production via huge contracts. This has significantly reduced over the last 20 years. Why would the owners sign off on a +32 year old getting +150 mil when their production is starting to decline?

See below, only a few of these deals had +32 year olds and it could be argued none of them worked out for the team (Standon, A-Rod, Cabrera, Pujols, Cano, Votto, Price)
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/02/mlb-largest-contracts-2.html

Team Management is committing huge 9 figure deals, but they're being smart about who they're giving them to. I think everyone was in their early/mid-20s when they signed these deals.
https://www.mlb.com/news/longest-contracts-in-baseball-history

Furthermore, here is a list of the biggest active contracts:
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/contracts/
Eight of the top 100 contracts were signed by players 32 years old or older (4 SP, 4 fielders). Only two were >4 years in length, both of which were for players 32yo at the time of signing.

MLBPA can't argue that the owners are being frugal when more 9 figure deals have occurred in the last 7-8 years than all other years combined. There are forty-four > $100,000,000 active contracts right now.

Team Management just took advantage of the situation, seeing how valuable young controllable talent was to the bottom line. That is why prospects are so valuable.

All the big contract money stuff aside, the owners do need to clean up some areas to support all baseball players.

MiLB needs a significant salary increase. No previous CBA even cared about players this far down, as they had no representation at the higher levels of the MLBPA. Most of the focus was providing veterans big contracts, and the MLBPA totally screwed this up. This go around, the poor MiLB conditions aren't going unnoticed.

DH or no DH, not sure this will matter. Ignoring all the baseball purists and my personal opionion, wouldn't the MLBPA want a universal DH? In the end, it provides 16-20 more jobs to aging veterans who can no longer play defense at an elite level, while also doubling the bidders for their services when they're a FA. I feel like the MLBPA would want to support this more than it does if it truly cares about creating the most lucrative system possible for the players to earn.

Expanded playoffs. This is simply a money grab that the owners will likely get since they seem to hold most of the bargaining chips right now. As a baseball fan who can't help but put some personal stance into this post, I am absolutely against this. I like how difficult it is for a team to grind out 162 games and earn a playoff spot. To see them get handed away really makes the regular season a waste.

Arbitration, service time manipulation, etc. Using a blanket age as a FA indicator is really weird. Guys like Tatis, Soto, Franco would be at a huge disadvantage if this happened. Reducing the pre-arbitration period and years of arbitration control needs to happen to satisfy the MLBPA so they can finally protect the young players coming into the league. This, in my opinion, will be what is used to accept a larger playoff field.

If you made it this far, cheers! I love talking baseball so hopefully this post doesn't get too dusty.
 
2021-12-02 2:38:08 PM  
I won't watch scab baseball.
 
2021-12-02 2:50:45 PM  

I hereby demand that I be given a Fark account: It means this is a repeat?


....not quite. The other thread was "The owners are gonna lock out the players on 2 Dec" while this one is "The owners locked out the players at 12:01 AM on 2 Dec". This thread is a follow-up to the other one, and would probably be tagged as such if not for being newsworthy enough for the News tag.
 
2021-12-02 2:51:31 PM  
....or did you mean it was a repeat from 1994, and I missed the joke like Buckner missed that grounder?
 
2021-12-02 2:52:21 PM  
My guess is it means the players are locked out.
 
2021-12-02 3:09:11 PM  

booztravlr: MLBPA can't argue that the owners are being frugal when more 9 figure deals have occurred in the last 7-8 years than all other years combined


You make some good points in the rest of the post, but I'm going to take exception to this one.  Yeah, the contracts are big, but the pie is so much bigger.  The last estimates I heard, pre-pandemic, were that player salaries were down under 40% of revenue generated by MLB.  Compare that to the other Big 4 sports, where the split is much closer to even.

Sure, there's the Scherzers and the Pujolses and the Harpers and the Coles and the Seagers out there, but for the vast majority of baseball players (there's 1500 players in the league!), they're seeing their share of the pie get smaller.

The big issues in this to me seem to be the service time manipulation, team control years, and the minor leaguers.  All of those are issues that concern the rank-and-file guys, and owners have been using those tools to artificially decrease the value of their labor for decades, at this point.

Fizpez: The Bestest: Fizpez: The only thing that matters to me as a "meh" baseball fan (so who really gives a shiat what I think) is some sort of salary cap/floor.  Don't know if it will even make the top 5 list of things they'll fight to the death about.

/Guardians "Fan"... yeah I said it...

The luxury tax already serves as a pretty effective soft cap.

What issue do you believe a hard cap would be addressing?

Honestly as a Cleveland fan I'm MORE interested in a hard floor.  But if I'm being honest even the luxury tax isnt a hard enough cap.... the "rich" teams already have a huge money advantage and being able to eeek out even a little bit more flexibility by going just a bit beyond the soft cap limit (even at a significant penalty) still rubs me the wrong way.

It's utterly unrealistic but personally I'd like to see a upper and lower cap limit separated by about $50M and let coaching and talent development decide things, not which owner has the deepest pockets.


Technically, there is a salary floor in baseball.  It's 26 guys times the minimum salary, which was $570,500 last year (I think that's about what the Pirates had for a payroll last year).  And there's no real need for a salary cap at all, because there's already revenue sharing among the owners.  Nobody in baseball actually loses money by "over" paying players.  They just would rather take the guaranteed profit instead of trying to win games (looking at you, Bob Nutting)
 
2021-12-02 3:19:22 PM  

King Something: ....or did you mean it was a repeat from 1994, and I missed the joke like Buckner missed that grounder?


1994 was a strike, not a lockout

/pedant
 
2021-12-02 3:23:03 PM  
Listening to Manfred now on MLB radio. This guy sucks. He's trying to pin the inability to put a competitive team in play on the "small market ", not the cheap owners who won't spend the money.
 
2021-12-02 3:29:23 PM  
It means billionaires want to fark over people who are not billionaires.
 
2021-12-02 3:31:01 PM  
It means the players will have to sleep in their cars and are in for a talking to about their curfews in the morning.
 
2021-12-02 4:06:05 PM  

The Bestest: King Something: ....or did you mean it was a repeat from 1994, and I missed the joke like Buckner missed that grounder?

1994 was a strike, not a lockout

/pedant


There was a lockout in 1990, right?  Back before the owners stabbed Fay Vincent in the back.
 
2021-12-02 4:59:10 PM  
I have a very hard time siding with people making a hundred million dollars a year complaining they don't get paid enough.
last time they did this it pretty much killed all interest in baseball until Sosa and roid rage got into a HR derby. it is just a middle finger to the fans.
I am a Brewers fan so I never expect anything good to happen. I could walk away pretty easily.
 
2021-12-02 5:09:10 PM  

phyrkrakr: The Bestest: King Something: ....or did you mean it was a repeat from 1994, and I missed the joke like Buckner missed that grounder?

1994 was a strike, not a lockout

/pedant

There was a lockout in 1990, right?  Back before the owners stabbed Fay Vincent in the back.


there was
 
2021-12-02 5:10:50 PM  

chucknasty: I have a very hard time siding with people making a hundred million dollars a year complaining they don't get paid enough.


..and this inaccurate narrative is exactly why the owners do this
 
2021-12-02 5:39:40 PM  
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2021-12-02 5:46:54 PM  
WhackingDay:

So if the small market is a problem, contract 10 teams and have a dispersal draft.
 
2021-12-02 5:48:07 PM  

Uzzah: It means that all the baseball games for the next two months are cancelled.  The gates at my local ballpark are all locked up today.


Wow. That was fast.
 
2021-12-02 8:06:20 PM  

AuralArgument: WhackingDay:

So if the small market is a problem, contract 10 teams and have a dispersal draft.


Well, obviously they wouldn't do that. Might as set a few billion dollars on fire. It'd be interesting to give owners some kind of limit, like if your team finishes in the bottom 2 of the division 5 seasons in a row, you lose the luxury money for the next 5. This is all fantasy though, the commissioner works for the owners and he'd never agree to anything punitive.
 
2021-12-03 1:43:32 AM  

chucknasty: I have a very hard time siding with people making a hundred million dollars a year complaining they don't get paid enough.
last time they did this it pretty much killed all interest in baseball until Sosa and roid rage got into a HR derby. it is just a middle finger to the fans.
I am a Brewers fan so I never expect anything good to happen. I could walk away pretty easily.


But ya have no problem with billionaires who use tax money to build stadiums claiming poverty? Weird.
 
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