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(MSN)   Ukraine urges NATO to be ready with sanctions in case of Russian invasion. Now THERE'S an effective deterrent   (msn.com) divider line
    More: Fail, Russia, Vladimir Putin, NATO, United States, Ukraine, Sergey Lavrov, economic sanctions, President Vladimir Putin  
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466 clicks; posted to Politics » on 01 Dec 2021 at 12:45 PM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-12-01 10:56:53 AM  
OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Direct hot conflict between nuclear powers is a threat not to "stability" "the economy" or "national prestige", but to the continuation of life on this planet. We will need to use options other than shooting to keep them from doing this. It may not be satisfying to you, and they may ignore it, but are we willing to say "We will stop them, even if it takes the end of the world to do so"?  is this the hill we are literally ready to die on?

Cut their economy to the bone.  Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful.  Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.
 
2021-12-01 12:33:55 PM  
Yeah! you knock it off or we'll... voluntarily shut off half the power in Europe!

That'll teach him!
 
2021-12-01 12:46:51 PM  
Yeah! What does Ukraine know about Ukrainian interests?

Let's liberate the shiat out of them!
 
2021-12-01 12:48:29 PM  
It's obviously not the only thing being done
 
2021-12-01 12:50:35 PM  
This is fundamentally a Europe problem, and Europe has decided it wants to keep that Russian natural gas flowing. I'm sure Ukraine will squawk to NATO, the US, whomever will listen, but I doubt it will do them very much good.
 
2021-12-01 12:50:35 PM  
I'm sorry but why are we not considering asymmetrical warfare in the form of airdropping primo meth and The Fappening DVD Box set over the Russian side?

"Look over here!!"
 
2021-12-01 12:53:14 PM  

TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Direct hot conflict between nuclear powers is a threat not to "stability" "the economy" or "national prestige", but to the continuation of life on this planet. We will need to use options other than shooting to keep them from doing this. It may not be satisfying to you, and they may ignore it, but are we willing to say "We will stop them, even if it takes the end of the world to do so"?  is this the hill we are literally ready to die on?

Cut their economy to the bone.  Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful.  Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.


Personally, I support killing every Russian tank, truck, artillery piece, aircraft and naval vessel involved, directly or in a supporting role, in any invasion of Ukraine. And destroying the bridge to Crimea. And locating and seizing Putin's offshore money. And completely farking Russia's economy.

For a start
 
2021-12-01 12:54:14 PM  

TommyDeuce: Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.


Didn't we just ship them like several metric assloads of weapons recently?  Possibly an entire farkton even?
 
2021-12-01 12:55:49 PM  

synithium: TommyDeuce: Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Didn't we just ship them like several metric assloads of weapons recently?  Possibly an entire farkton even?


If Russia invades Ukraine will need about a farkton per hour to make it hurt.
 
2021-12-01 12:57:08 PM  
Ukraine should just seed it's eastern half pre Soviet lines. Give Russia back what is Russia's. Let them have their warm water access they fought for in blood to get it from the Turks in the free the region from slavery. Go and check out what a janissary is if you don't know what I'm talkin about. They should all get together under the spirit of Peter the Great make peace and stop killing each other because it's not doing anybody any good. The only problem I have with this one proposal is that they would essentially be submitting all those people in that region to tyrannical rule under Vladimir Putin. And the idiots seem to be craving it. Some people are just Subs and like a boot on them  and other people are just broken.
 
2021-12-01 12:57:19 PM  

TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Direct hot conflict between nuclear powers is a threat not to "stability" "the economy" or "national prestige", but to the continuation of life on this planet. We will need to use options other than shooting to keep them from doing this. It may not be satisfying to you, and they may ignore it, but are we willing to say "We will stop them, even if it takes the end of the world to do so"?  is this the hill we are literally ready to die on?

Cut their economy to the bone.  Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful.  Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.


Pretty spot on.  I'll add though that in Russia people view Ukraine as actually a part of Russia.  Similar to how China views Taiwan.  

In all likelihood the only way to really prevent a Ukraine takeover is putting American troops there.  And then you have to hope and pray that Russia doesn't start WWIII.
 
2021-12-01 12:57:33 PM  
I expect the invading Russian General will run Trumps 2024 campaign.

You know, exactly like last time?
 
2021-12-01 12:57:59 PM  

TommyDeuce: Cut their economy to the bone. Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful. Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.


Hurting their economy in general will not help - it will only make them more desperate.

Yes to sanctions on the Russian oligarchs though. You don't need to punish the general population, as that will only justify military action. We can target pressure on those who actually control the military instead.
=Smidge=
 
2021-12-01 12:59:22 PM  
Obama had sanctions against Russia that pretty much drove them into the ground. Then TFG came in and was all buddy buddy and now they are all empowered again. Sure there was the Crimea issue, but Russia was hurting.

Biden should reintroduce those sanctions for their election meddling.
 
2021-12-01 12:59:54 PM  
The lack of military support means no one will ever be persuaded to give up their nukes again. And if I didn't have any, I'd be working on developing them.
 
2021-12-01 1:01:06 PM  
Yeah, sanctions never work, which is why practically the first farking act of TFG was to drop the previous sanctions on Russia.
 
2021-12-01 1:03:48 PM  
It looks like Russia is about to do something stupid. Let's see how it goes. LOL
 
2021-12-01 1:05:22 PM  

Smidge204: TommyDeuce: Cut their economy to the bone. Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful. Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.

Hurting their economy in general will not help - it will only make them more desperate.

Yes to sanctions on the Russian oligarchs though. You don't need to punish the general population, as that will only justify military action. We can target pressure on those who actually control the military instead.
=Smidge=


Russia is a plutocracy and a kakistocracy, sanctions will cut the head off the snake, or at least create a power struggle at the highest levels that will destroy the current government from within. NATO needs urgently to lay out what sanctions would go into play the second a Russian foot steps into Ukraine, and make them bigly painful. Putin is not a stupid man and he knows what will happen when his benefactors lose access to global banking.
 
2021-12-01 1:07:44 PM  

Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Direct hot conflict between nuclear powers is a threat not to "stability" "the economy" or "national prestige", but to the continuation of life on this planet. We will need to use options other than shooting to keep them from doing this. It may not be satisfying to you, and they may ignore it, but are we willing to say "We will stop them, even if it takes the end of the world to do so"?  is this the hill we are literally ready to die on?

Cut their economy to the bone.  Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful.  Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.

Personally, I support killing every Russian tank, truck, artillery piece, aircraft and naval vessel involved, directly or in a supporting role, in any invasion of Ukraine. And destroying the bridge to Crimea. And locating and seizing Putin's offshore money. And completely farking Russia's economy.

For a start


Yeah, I guess Putin would see the error of his ways and not retaliate or widen the conflict in that case.  I mean, the Russian people would really be all in for rewarding him for backing down and not escalating.

And since we have a lot of good ways to accomplish your plan with no NATO losses, we'll be celebrated at home for this brilliant paln.

Hell, the Russians will probably greet us as lilberators!
 
2021-12-01 1:08:25 PM  

White_Scarf_Syndrome: I'm sorry but why are we not considering asymmetrical warfare in the form of airdropping primo meth and The Fappening DVD Box set over the Russian side?

"Look over here!!"


You forgot fentanyl by the pill barrel.
 
Juc
2021-12-01 1:08:32 PM  
This better not interfere with the strategic perogi supply
 
2021-12-01 1:09:30 PM  

jack_o_the_hills: Smidge204: TommyDeuce: Cut their economy to the bone. Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful. Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.

Hurting their economy in general will not help - it will only make them more desperate.

Yes to sanctions on the Russian oligarchs though. You don't need to punish the general population, as that will only justify military action. We can target pressure on those who actually control the military instead.
=Smidge=

Russia is a plutocracy and a kakistocracy, sanctions will cut the head off the snake, or at least create a power struggle at the highest levels that will destroy the current government from within. NATO needs urgently to lay out what sanctions would go into play the second a Russian foot steps into Ukraine, and make them bigly painful. Putin is not a stupid man and he knows what will happen when his benefactors lose access to global banking.


To be fair, you probably need to edit that to "as soon as identified Russian units cross parts of the border that they aren't crossing with unfettered regularity already in the Eastern part of Ukraine, but yeah.
 
2021-12-01 1:10:54 PM  
This is not valid job for armies. It's gonna take some covert wetwork. And a few minor monkey wrenches on the pipeline. And suddenly, Russian attention will turn elsewhere.
 
2021-12-01 1:12:33 PM  
preview.redd.itView Full Size


I'm sure Biden will be making a perfect phone call.
 
2021-12-01 1:13:36 PM  
A Ukrainian finds a dusty lamp on a beach. He starts rubbing some of the dust off, and a genie comes out. YOU HAVE THREE WISHES, the genie roars. The Ukrainian thinks a while, and finally says "I want Genghis Khan to invade Sweden". The genie thinks it's odd, but does as he's told. Temujin and his legions of horsemen rise from the Mongolian dirt, and ride on Stockholm, raping and pillaging along the way. Their task complete, they ride back the way they came.

"That was great!" exclaims the Ukrainian. "Do it again!" ARE YOU SURE? asks the incredulous genie. THIS WOULD COUNT AS YOUR SECOND WISH. "I understand, and wish for Genghis Khan to rise again from his grave and ride on Sweden." And so it comes to pass, the ghostly riders, their leader at the front, raping and pillaging their way to Sweden. Their work completed, again they return to the Mongolian soil.

"Amazing!" exclaims the Ukrainian. "One more time!" SERIOUSLY?! WHAT IS YOUR DEAL DUDE? thunders the genie. "I wish it to be done. It is my third wish." states the Ukrainian firmly. And so once more, the great Khan and his armies pillage their way to Sweden and back. The djin looks down at the man, and says NEVER IN MY MILLENNIA HAVE I SEEN SUCH WISHES. YOU MUST TELL ME YOUR REASONS!

The Ukrainian says "Well, I figured three times from Mongolia to Sweden and back is six times through Moscow."
 
2021-12-01 1:14:36 PM  

TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Direct hot conflict between nuclear powers is a threat not to "stability" "the economy" or "national prestige", but to the continuation of life on this planet. We will need to use options other than shooting to keep them from doing this. It may not be satisfying to you, and they may ignore it, but are we willing to say "We will stop them, even if it takes the end of the world to do so"?  is this the hill we are literally ready to die on?

Cut their economy to the bone.  Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful.  Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.

Personally, I support killing every Russian tank, truck, artillery piece, aircraft and naval vessel involved, directly or in a supporting role, in any invasion of Ukraine. And destroying the bridge to Crimea. And locating and seizing Putin's offshore money. And completely farking Russia's economy.

For a start

Yeah, I guess Putin would see the error of his ways and not retaliate or widen the conflict in that case.  I mean, the Russian people would really be all in for rewarding him for backing down and not escalating.

And since we have a lot of good ways to accomplish your plan with no NATO losses, we'll be celebrated at home for this brilliant paln.

Hell, the Russians will probably greet us as lilberators!


Air power and standoff weapons cannot take and hold land, but they can sure as Fark keep Ivan from doing so.

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of which they gave up for a pledge to defend them from the Russians.

They would not be under threat of invasion if they had kept those weapons.

We betrayed the Kurds under TFG, we cannot do the same thing to the Ukrainians.
 
2021-12-01 1:14:41 PM  

Jeff5: synithium: TommyDeuce: Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Didn't we just ship them like several metric assloads of weapons recently?  Possibly an entire farkton even?

If Russia invades Ukraine will need about a farkton per hour to make it hurt.


Depends on what they want to do I guess.

I do wonder if it's a coincidence that we've got a few hundred idle drones now and a nice stockpile of missiles building up over the past several months....while Ukraine is effectively exercising drone warfare.

//i learned it by watching you, dad
 
2021-12-01 1:17:09 PM  

Juc: This better not interfere with the strategic perogi supply


Not worried about the perog, pelmin, or cheburek ( can get all those at my local Russian deli - the babushka there even warms up the chebureki for us so we can slam those in the car with some kvass ) but if my supply of buterbrodnaya gets cut off thats gonna rustle my eggs..damn Putin..
 
2021-12-01 1:17:51 PM  
Draft this guy...

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-12-01 1:20:43 PM  

Jeff5: TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

* * *

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of which they gave up for a pledge to defend them from the Russians.

They would not be under threat of invasion if they had kept those weapons.

We betrayed the Kurds under TFG, we cannot do the same thing to the Ukrainians.


Russia will take territory in Ukraine's east that belonged to them historically. Same thing they did with Crimea. 

Do I think it's worth WWIII? Hell. No. Especially not when Europe sits on its hands.
 
2021-12-01 1:21:55 PM  

WordsnCollision: Draft this guy...

[Fark user image 237x211] [View Full Size image _x_]


It's the eye twitch that does it for me - every damn time.
 
2021-12-01 1:23:44 PM  

Gaythiest Elitist: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

* * *

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of which they gave up for a pledge to defend them from the Russians.

They would not be under threat of invasion if they had kept those weapons.

We betrayed the Kurds under TFG, we cannot do the same thing to the Ukrainians.

Russia will take territory in Ukraine's east that belonged to them historically. Same thing they did with Crimea. 

Do I think it's worth WWIII? Hell. No. Especially not when Europe sits on its hands.


Poland "historically" belonged to Germany, as did France and a few other places.
 
2021-12-01 1:24:20 PM  

Jeff5: TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Direct hot conflict between nuclear powers is a threat not to "stability" "the economy" or "national prestige", but to the continuation of life on this planet. We will need to use options other than shooting to keep them from doing this. It may not be satisfying to you, and they may ignore it, but are we willing to say "We will stop them, even if it takes the end of the world to do so"?  is this the hill we are literally ready to die on?

Cut their economy to the bone.  Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful.  Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.

Personally, I support killing every Russian tank, truck, artillery piece, aircraft and naval vessel involved, directly or in a supporting role, in any invasion of Ukraine. And destroying the bridge to Crimea. And locating and seizing Putin's offshore money. And completely farking Russia's economy.

For a start

Yeah, I guess Putin would see the error of his ways and not retaliate or widen the conflict in that case.  I mean, the Russian people would really be all in for rewarding him for backing down and not escalating.

And since we have a lot of good ways to accomplish your plan with no NATO losses, we'll be celebrated at home for this brilliant paln.

Hell, the Russians will probably greet us as lilberators!

Air power and standoff weapons cannot take and hold land, but they can sure as Fark keep Ivan from doing so.

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of w ...


Agreed about the "should defend them" part in principal - but where are we basing the forces that are going to fark up the Russians, and what keeps Russia from pounding those locations with all sorts of bad shiat?

As it is, we'll be trying to find a way to keep Europe warm this winter.
 
2021-12-01 1:26:13 PM  

Jeff5: Gaythiest Elitist: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

* * *

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of which they gave up for a pledge to defend them from the Russians.

They would not be under threat of invasion if they had kept those weapons.

We betrayed the Kurds under TFG, we cannot do the same thing to the Ukrainians.

Russia will take territory in Ukraine's east that belonged to them historically. Same thing they did with Crimea. 

Do I think it's worth WWIII? Hell. No. Especially not when Europe sits on its hands.

Poland "historically" belonged to Germany, as did France and a few other places.


Yeah, lot of Native American tribes would like to have a chat with the US about "historical belonging".
 
2021-12-01 1:26:49 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-12-01 1:26:57 PM  

TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Direct hot conflict between nuclear powers is a threat not to "stability" "the economy" or "national prestige", but to the continuation of life on this planet. We will need to use options other than shooting to keep them from doing this. It may not be satisfying to you, and they may ignore it, but are we willing to say "We will stop them, even if it takes the end of the world to do so"?  is this the hill we are literally ready to die on?

Cut their economy to the bone.  Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful.  Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.

Personally, I support killing every Russian tank, truck, artillery piece, aircraft and naval vessel involved, directly or in a supporting role, in any invasion of Ukraine. And destroying the bridge to Crimea. And locating and seizing Putin's offshore money. And completely farking Russia's economy.

For a start

Yeah, I guess Putin would see the error of his ways and not retaliate or widen the conflict in that case.  I mean, the Russian people would really be all in for rewarding him for backing down and not escalating.

And since we have a lot of good ways to accomplish your plan with no NATO losses, we'll be celebrated at home for this brilliant paln.

Hell, the Russians will probably greet us as lilberators!

Air power and standoff weapons cannot take and hold land, but they can sure as Fark keep Ivan from doing so.

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of w ...

Agreed about the "should defend them" part in principal - but where are we basing the forces that are going to fark up the Russians, and what keeps Russia from pounding those locations with all sorts of bad shiat?

As it is, we'll be trying to find a way to keep Europe warm this winter.


🇹🇷
 
2021-12-01 1:27:39 PM  

TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Direct hot conflict between nuclear powers is a threat not to "stability" "the economy" or "national prestige", but to the continuation of life on this planet. We will need to use options other than shooting to keep them from doing this. It may not be satisfying to you, and they may ignore it, but are we willing to say "We will stop them, even if it takes the end of the world to do so"?  is this the hill we are literally ready to die on?

Cut their economy to the bone.  Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful.  Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.

Personally, I support killing every Russian tank, truck, artillery piece, aircraft and naval vessel involved, directly or in a supporting role, in any invasion of Ukraine. And destroying the bridge to Crimea. And locating and seizing Putin's offshore money. And completely farking Russia's economy.

For a start

Yeah, I guess Putin would see the error of his ways and not retaliate or widen the conflict in that case.  I mean, the Russian people would really be all in for rewarding him for backing down and not escalating.

And since we have a lot of good ways to accomplish your plan with no NATO losses, we'll be celebrated at home for this brilliant paln.

Hell, the Russians will probably greet us as lilberators!

Air power and standoff weapons cannot take and hold land, but they can sure as Fark keep Ivan from doing so.

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of w ...

Agreed about the "should defend them" part in principal - but where are we basing the forces that are going to fark up the Russians, and what keeps Russia from pounding those locations with all sorts of bad shiat?

As it is, we'll be trying to find a way to keep Europe warm this winter.


We regularly bombed Syria from Missouri, lots of airfields closer than that.
 
2021-12-01 1:27:54 PM  
Europe gave up nuclear and became beholden to Russia, and now Ukraine is screwed.

Bet they wish they kept their nukes now.

"Assurances" from the US and Europe are rapidly becoming worthless.
 
2021-12-01 1:28:35 PM  

TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Direct hot conflict between nuclear powers is a threat not to "stability" "the economy" or "national prestige", but to the continuation of life on this planet. We will need to use options other than shooting to keep them from doing this. It may not be satisfying to you, and they may ignore it, but are we willing to say "We will stop them, even if it takes the end of the world to do so"?  is this the hill we are literally ready to die on?

Cut their economy to the bone.  Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful.  Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.


Stick a few hundred US / NATO soldiers there "near the front" training the Ukrainian military. Russia attacks, they hit US / NATO soldiers, and effectively declare war on the US / NATO.

Vlad isn't a moron. He won't start a fight with someone who has over-the-horizon kill capability. Russia is a paper bear, and he knows attacking an opponent like that will leave him no choice but to go nuclear. He isn't interested in suicide.
 
2021-12-01 1:30:15 PM  

Jeff5: Gaythiest Elitist: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

* * *

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of which they gave up for a pledge to defend them from the Russians.

They would not be under threat of invasion if they had kept those weapons.

We betrayed the Kurds under TFG, we cannot do the same thing to the Ukrainians.

Russia will take territory in Ukraine's east that belonged to them historically. Same thing they did with Crimea. 

Do I think it's worth WWIII? Hell. No. Especially not when Europe sits on its hands.

Poland "historically" belonged to Germany, as did France and a few other places.


Well, if we are going historically back sufficiently it's more accurate to say that Germany belonged to France, along with a goodly bit of Eastern Europe.  Charles the Mangy and all that.

And it probably would be more accurate, historically, to say that Russia (at least a little bit of it) belonged to Ukraine (the original Rus place).
 
2021-12-01 1:31:27 PM  

TommyDeuce: Jeff5: Gaythiest Elitist: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

* * *

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of which they gave up for a pledge to defend them from the Russians.

They would not be under threat of invasion if they had kept those weapons.

We betrayed the Kurds under TFG, we cannot do the same thing to the Ukrainians.

Russia will take territory in Ukraine's east that belonged to them historically. Same thing they did with Crimea. 

Do I think it's worth WWIII? Hell. No. Especially not when Europe sits on its hands.

Poland "historically" belonged to Germany, as did France and a few other places.

Yeah, lot of Native American tribes would like to have a chat with the US about "historical belonging".


The historical belongings in the US are too farking complicated to ever be able to unravel.
 
2021-12-01 1:32:26 PM  

TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.


You know they want the magic wand that fixes everything.

I bet subby hates "strong worded letters", sanctions, all out wars and drone attacks.
 
2021-12-01 1:33:14 PM  

Jeff5: Gaythiest Elitist: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

* * *

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of which they gave up for a pledge to defend them from the Russians.

They would not be under threat of invasion if they had kept those weapons.

We betrayed the Kurds under TFG, we cannot do the same thing to the Ukrainians.

Russia will take territory in Ukraine's east that belonged to them historically. Same thing they did with Crimea. 

Do I think it's worth WWIII? Hell. No. Especially not when Europe sits on its hands.

Poland "historically" belonged to Germany, as did France and a few other places.


How many billions are you willing for the U.S. to spend? How many dead people? All to prevent Russia from having its pre-USSR borders with Ukraine? GTFOH 

If anything is done about it, the EU should be the ones doing it, and they've already let it be known that Russian natural gas matters more to them than Ukraine.
 
Juc
2021-12-01 1:33:19 PM  

Lord Putin: Europe gave up nuclear and became beholden to Russia, and now Ukraine is screwed.

Bet they wish they kept their nukes now.

"Assurances" from the US and Europe are rapidly becoming worthless.


well at one point in time the US would mostly keep its word.
after trump you'd have to be crazy to trust the USA for more than a two year time period though.
 
2021-12-01 1:33:45 PM  

TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Direct hot conflict between nuclear powers is a threat not to "stability" "the economy" or "national prestige", but to the continuation of life on this planet. We will need to use options other than shooting to keep them from doing this. It may not be satisfying to you, and they may ignore it, but are we willing to say "We will stop them, even if it takes the end of the world to do so"?  is this the hill we are literally ready to die on?

Cut their economy to the bone.  Discomfort the Oligarchs to the point that they decide Putin is no longer useful.  Hurt them in ways we can short of direct engagement. I don't trust Putin not to decide he has nothing left to lose.

Personally, I support killing every Russian tank, truck, artillery piece, aircraft and naval vessel involved, directly or in a supporting role, in any invasion of Ukraine. And destroying the bridge to Crimea. And locating and seizing Putin's offshore money. And completely farking Russia's economy.

For a start

Yeah, I guess Putin would see the error of his ways and not retaliate or widen the conflict in that case.  I mean, the Russian people would really be all in for rewarding him for backing down and not escalating.

And since we have a lot of good ways to accomplish your plan with no NATO losses, we'll be celebrated at home for this brilliant paln.

Hell, the Russians will probably greet us as lilberators!

Air power and standoff weapons cannot take and hold land, but they can sure as Fark keep Ivan from doing so.

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of w ...

Agreed about the "should defend them" part in principal - but where are we basing the forces that are going to fark up the Russians, and what keeps Russia from pounding those locations with all sorts of bad shiat?

As it is, we'll be trying to find a way to keep Europe warm this winter.


What? Is "Global Warming" not a thing anymore??
 
TWX
2021-12-01 1:34:26 PM  

Gaythiest Elitist: This is fundamentally a Europe problem, and Europe has decided it wants to keep that Russian natural gas flowing. I'm sure Ukraine will squawk to NATO, the US, whomever will listen, but I doubt it will do them very much good.


Then if elments of NATO or the EU want to bite the bullet and make it happen despite pressure ot keep the gas flowing, this is the time for agents provocateur to sabotage the pipelines.  Once the gas is off and the deed is done, the status quo has shifted and now actions dealing with Russian aggression are decoupled from winter fuel.

Plus hasn't Europe, or at least some European countries, started making real inroads into changing how they keep warm, specifically to start distancing themselves from Russia?
 
2021-12-01 1:34:41 PM  

synithium: TommyDeuce: Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

Didn't we just ship them like several metric assloads of weapons recently?  Possibly an entire farkton even?


How many metric assloads constitute a farkton? Is that a question that's been settled? Do we need to form a committee or something?
 
2021-12-01 1:36:43 PM  
Strongly worded letters have been fitted into envelopes.

Standing by for first class stamps.
 
2021-12-01 1:37:10 PM  

Gaythiest Elitist: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: Jeff5: TommyDeuce: OK - so what response would subby use instead.  Keeping in mind that Russia is a nuclear-armed nation with substantial conventional forces in theater ready to roll? Obama's time machine is in the shop for repairs, so we can't just go back a couple years and start selling lots of arms to Ukraine, and building up troops for such an emergency.

* * *

When the USSR collapsed Ukraine had a large inventory of nuclear weapons and the delivery systems to use them, all of which they gave up for a pledge to defend them from the Russians.

They would not be under threat of invasion if they had kept those weapons.

We betrayed the Kurds under TFG, we cannot do the same thing to the Ukrainians.

Russia will take territory in Ukraine's east that belonged to them historically. Same thing they did with Crimea.

Do I think it's worth WWIII? Hell. No. Especially not when Europe sits on its hands.


Russia's rationale for "taking back" eastern Ukraine opens the door to reexamining Kaliningrad. What's good for the goose, yada yada yada.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-12-01 1:37:39 PM  
It might not be a deterrent. It might be an attempt to get NATO to cut off the Russian supply chain, since they are unlikely to enter a conventional war with Russia. Ukraine was part of the Russia we romanticize for for being unconquerable due to supply chain failures and a will to scorch their own food and water supplies. Ukraine needs war profiteers to give them them supplies and deter war protifeers from supporting Russia. Then a protracted conflict could mire Russia until they might retreat.
 
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