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(Some Guy)   Automotive CEO pledges to keep "leadership position" in EVs despite frequent fires, multibillion dollar recalls, and production stoppages   (teslarati.com) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Automotive industry, General Motors, Volkswagen Group, CNBC's Andrew Sorkin, GM CEO, Suzuki, electric vehicles, Ford Motor Company  
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683 clicks; posted to Business » on 29 Nov 2021 at 5:10 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



49 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-11-29 3:45:03 AM  
The Volt/Bolt thing is stupid marketing, I can never remember which is which. That being said all EV lines are having growing pains, there will be plenty to go around before we get to even 50%.
 
2021-11-29 5:17:40 AM  
They gave up the "leadership position" when they crushed the EV1s and stopped development of their EV program. They're playing catch-up to Tesla with everyone else.

But if believing they are "leaders" can make them act like leaders then I hope they believe.
 
Xai
2021-11-29 5:33:00 AM  
EV's catch fire roughly 10x less than regular gas vehicles (on a per vehicle mile basis) yet both the media and even here on Fark we repeatedly get this blatantly false statement being repeated over and over.

Stop it.
 
2021-11-29 6:50:14 AM  
GM is a leader in EVs?  According to who?  Running commercials all the time claiming you'll have 400 EV models by 2025 doesn't make you a leader in the EV space.
 
2021-11-29 7:15:20 AM  
Fark's hate boner for EVs knows no bounds. It just keeps getting bigger and ever more vascular.
 
2021-11-29 7:40:47 AM  

EvilEgg: The Volt/Bolt thing is stupid marketing, I can never remember which is which.


Volt is no longer made so it should be easy.
 
2021-11-29 7:42:35 AM  

HeadbangerSmurf: GM is a leader in EVs?  According to who?  Running commercials all the time claiming you'll have 400 EV models by 2025 doesn't make you a leader in the EV space.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-11-29 7:45:07 AM  

mrmopar5287: EvilEgg: The Volt/Bolt thing is stupid marketing, I can never remember which is which.

Volt is no longer made so it should be easy.


It's too bad they couldn't figure out how to market either of those vehicles any better. In my mind the Volt is easily the best PHV ever and the Bolt is an extremely competent EV. I wonder if more people would have been interested if GM had been more enthusiastic.

It's also too bad LG messed up their batteries...
 
2021-11-29 7:59:38 AM  

adamatari: They gave up the "leadership position" when they crushed the EV1s and stopped development of their EV program. They're playing catch-up to Tesla with everyone else.

But if believing they are "leaders" can make them act like leaders then I hope they believe.


The EV1 was back when gasoline was ~.90/gal and it used lead acid batteries.  For the time, the technology was cutting edge, plus the late-model version had LiOn batteries.  The problem then was the EV1 was strictly a commuter vehicle.

As is the challenge with EVs today, the critics railed against the vehicle because it couldn't travel the requisite 400 miles on a charge when Americans suddenly desire to travel across the US.  You know, because that's what people in the US do at least seven times per year.
 
2021-11-29 8:21:02 AM  

Likwit: It's too bad they couldn't figure out how to market either of those vehicles any better.


There is no market for the Volt.

EV technology progressed to where it's time to get all in or stay with petroleum-fueled vehicles. The Volt has an expensive EV powertrain AND an expensive petroleum powertrain. Combining means the vehicle is expensive and does neither well.

Shiat or get off the pot. But an EV or don't.
 
2021-11-29 8:23:10 AM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: the late-model version had LiOn batteries


EV1 version 1.1 had NiMH batteries. EV1 was never made with lithium-ion batteries.
 
2021-11-29 8:24:52 AM  

Likwit: In my mind the Volt is easily the best PHV ever


False. Toyota sells the Prius Prime and the RAV4 Prime. Both of those are better and more capable.
 
2021-11-29 8:27:54 AM  
GM leads the way in fading trim, and not much else.
 
2021-11-29 8:49:38 AM  

mrmopar5287: Chief Superintendent Lookout: the late-model version had LiOn batteries

EV1 version 1.1 had NiMH batteries. EV1 was never made with lithium-ion batteries.


Thanks for the correction.  It's been a long time since I watched Who Killed the Electric Car.  I learned more about the EV1 through that documentary than back in the 90s.
 
hej
2021-11-29 8:53:04 AM  
They view to keep leadership position despite not actually being a leader.
 
2021-11-29 8:59:19 AM  
Make an EV that runs just as well (actually, better) than a gas car.

Wait for gasoline to become a rare luxury and let the market dictate the rise of EVs.

Make owning, operating, and maintaining an EV easier than a gas car.

Just ban gasoline use.

Any of these will put EV sales ahead traditional car sales.
 
2021-11-29 9:04:32 AM  
At one time GM was a world leader in auto manufacture with 50% market share in the US.   In 1957 GM was the first company in history to earn a profit of $1 billion (about $10 billion adjusted for inflation).   GM was the first company to mass produce cars with electric starters, automatic transmissions, air conditioning, catalytic converters, etc.   GM is an example of what happens when the 'jerb creators' of Wall St. get their shiat hooks into a company that actually does something productive.
 
hej
2021-11-29 9:09:46 AM  

HeadbangerSmurf: GM is a leader in EVs?  According to who?


Pres. Biden Said This About GM and Detroit on Everyman Driver
Youtube djKJQ2GcNJY
 
hej
2021-11-29 9:18:16 AM  

Likwit: Fark's hate boner for EVs knows no bounds. It just keeps getting bigger and ever more vascular.


It's less about hating EVs and more about hating a narrative that a company that's near the bottom of the list for promoting them is being labeled as a "leader" in electric vehicles.
 
2021-11-29 9:43:42 AM  

mrmopar5287: Likwit: In my mind the Volt is easily the best PHV ever

False. Toyota sells the Prius Prime and the RAV4 Prime. Both of those are better and more capable.


The Prius Prime is a bit weak IMO (all-electric range of only 25 miles is a bit weak, though I might be biased as my normal commute is about 30 miles). The RAV4 Prime, on the other hand, hits it out of the park - solid EV range (42 mile rating), packaged in the most popular (non-pickup) body style, with AWD, and 300+ hp when running combined gas/EV? All for a price that rivals the first Volt's MSRP (ten years ago)? Yes please.

/might be biased, I have a 1st Gen Volt
//Or is it a Bolt?
///Get confused myself sometimes...
 
2021-11-29 10:07:57 AM  

hej: HeadbangerSmurf: GM is a leader in EVs?  According to who?

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/djKJQ2GcNJY]


Your point?  Commercials and politicians aren't cars shipped.
 
2021-11-29 10:28:03 AM  

Fissile: air conditioning


Nash did that first.

Fissile: catalytic converters


Everyone did that about the same time - most cars in 1975, when it became required. Notably, Honda's CVCC engine was able to meet emissions without a catalytic converter but eventually added one when emissions got tighter.
 
2021-11-29 10:28:35 AM  

Fissile: At one time GM was a world leader in auto manufacture with 50% market share in the US.   In 1957 GM was the first company in history to earn a profit of $1 billion (about $10 billion adjusted for inflation).   GM was the first company to mass produce cars with electric starters, automatic transmissions, air conditioning, catalytic converters, etc.   GM is an example of what happens when the 'jerb creators' of Wall St. get their shiat hooks into a company that actually does something productive.


One of the main problems back then was the 50% market share.  GM came very close to being broken up by the government due to that.  So, since they couldn't expand their market share, the only way they could come up with to make a higher profit was by making the product cheaper.  And then when that became their typical practice, they never really stopped.
 
2021-11-29 10:33:09 AM  

eKonk: The Prius Prime is a bit weak IMO (all-electric range of only 25 miles is a bit weak, though I might be biased as my normal commute is about 30 miles).


It's fine. It hits the balance of "almost enough" and will cover about 90% of most people's one-way commute. We need the infrastructure to come up to where you can at least provide some 120v outlets for employees to charge their PHEV, or partially charge their EV. Installing 120v infrastructure is easier than Level 2 chargers, and should be the minimum required with some zoning violations.
 
2021-11-29 10:33:33 AM  

mrmopar5287: Likwit: It's too bad they couldn't figure out how to market either of those vehicles any better.

There is no market for the Volt.

EV technology progressed to where it's time to get all in or stay with petroleum-fueled vehicles. The Volt has an expensive EV powertrain AND an expensive petroleum powertrain. Combining means the vehicle is expensive and does neither well.

Shiat or get off the pot. But an EV or don't.


Range anxiety is still a thing.  Most people don't go on long car trips, but most people when buying a car want one that has the capability to do so.  Plug in hybrids, no matter the specific form, is the happy medium between gas and electric.

I do not see pure EVs getting more than about a 25% market share until this problem is solved (IE, you can drive up to a thing that is as common as gas stations and charge your vehicle to 100% in the same five minutes it takes to fuel up a gasoline powered vehicle), barring government mandates/bans.

As for GM, 90%+ of their vehicles are still gas powered.  Heck, they don't even sell a lot of hybrids of any form.
 
2021-11-29 10:43:36 AM  

eKonk: The Prius Prime is a bit weak IMO (all-electric range of only 25 miles is a bit weak, though I might be biased as my normal commute is about 30 miles).


You've got a Volt so you know this already: If you're using the battery all the time, you have the problem of gasoline going stale. The Volt has to be programmed to run the engine occasionally to flush out the fuel lines and programmed to consume an entire tank of fuel within 12 months so it doesn't go stale.

If you're going to have a PHEV with a battery, I'd rather have the battery cover maybe 70% your daily/weekly mileage so you have some turnover of the fuel in the tank. That's why it's a problem to combine both EV and petroleum powertrain technology.
 
2021-11-29 10:55:50 AM  

mrmopar5287: eKonk: The Prius Prime is a bit weak IMO (all-electric range of only 25 miles is a bit weak, though I might be biased as my normal commute is about 30 miles).

It's fine. It hits the balance of "almost enough" and will cover about 90% of most people's one-way commute. We need the infrastructure to come up to where you can at least provide some 120v outlets for employees to charge their PHEV, or partially charge their EV. Installing 120v infrastructure is easier than Level 2 chargers, and should be the minimum required with some zoning violations.


It's funny - in some colder areas, it's somewhat common to find publicly-accessible 120V outlets on parking lot light posts (convenient to plug in engine block heaters on days when you're lucky to see temperatures get up to zero).  Even at a relatively low 8A draw, that would be good enough to get ~4 miles worth of charge per hour (so maybe 30 miles or so of range over the course of a work day), and wouldn't put too much of a strain on the existing power infrastructure unless everyone was doing it.

I would probably be fine for 99% of my driving with one of the newer 200+ mile range EVs, but I like having the gasoline backup for those occasional long trips (where charging might be hard to come by) or emergency situations (multi-day power outages, which are not unheard of around me).  I'd like to see a lot more PHEVs available, and wonder what the market would be like for them if they were integrated into more mainstream vehicles than are currently available. The RAV4 Prime is expensive, but made in such low volumes that we don't know how many people would really buy since most can't get them without paying over sticker.
 
2021-11-29 10:59:04 AM  

Geotpf: I do not see pure EVs getting more than about a 25% market share until this problem is solved (IE, you can drive up to a thing that is as common as gas stations and charge your vehicle to 100% in the same five minutes it takes to fuel up a gasoline powered vehicle), barring government mandates/bans.


When people ask me how long it takes my PHEV to charge, I'll jokingly say "About 10 seconds" - or in other words, I plug it in and forget about it until it's time to go somewhere. In that time, it's magically back to 100%, unlike refueling a gasoline car which can take those five minutes (or more, if the station is crowded!).
 
2021-11-29 11:02:02 AM  

adamatari: They gave up the "leadership position" when they crushed the EV1s and stopped development of their EV program. They're playing catch-up to Tesla with everyone else.


The EV1 had a low development cost of only $1 million per vehicle, and could go a whopping 50 miles per charge. I never could understand why it didn't catch on.
 
2021-11-29 11:13:34 AM  

mrmopar5287: eKonk: The Prius Prime is a bit weak IMO (all-electric range of only 25 miles is a bit weak, though I might be biased as my normal commute is about 30 miles).

You've got a Volt so you know this already: If you're using the battery all the time, you have the problem of gasoline going stale. The Volt has to be programmed to run the engine occasionally to flush out the fuel lines and programmed to consume an entire tank of fuel within 12 months so it doesn't go stale.

If you're going to have a PHEV with a battery, I'd rather have the battery cover maybe 70% your daily/weekly mileage so you have some turnover of the fuel in the tank. That's why it's a problem to combine both EV and petroleum powertrain technology.


No.  The fuel system on the Volt vacuum seals, thereby preventing the fuel from going stale.  I know a guy with a Volt as his Daily Driver and refuels about once per quarter.
 
2021-11-29 11:14:58 AM  

mrmopar5287: We need the infrastructure to come up to where you can at least provide some 120v outlets for employees to charge their PHEV, or partially charge their EV. Installing 120v infrastructure is easier than Level 2 chargers, and should be the minimum required with some zoning violations.


There usually isn't much of a cost difference between a 120V and 240V circuit.  You just need a different outlet if you're not hard-wiring a charge point and a double-pole breaker if your breaker bus is 240/120V (hot-hot-neutral-ground).

Where costs really start going up is when you want to support higher currents.  That requires larger gauge wire, larger conduit, possibly higher capacity breakers, and so on.  But when factoring for overall costs of the project (permits, electrician, trenching, parts, etc...), you're probably not saving much as a percentage going with the bare minimum.

FWIW, the latest update to the ICC sets 240V40A as the baseline for new charging circuits.
 
2021-11-29 11:23:58 AM  

Dinjiin: possibly higher capacity breaker panel


FTFM.
 
2021-11-29 11:40:21 AM  

eKonk: Geotpf: I do not see pure EVs getting more than about a 25% market share until this problem is solved (IE, you can drive up to a thing that is as common as gas stations and charge your vehicle to 100% in the same five minutes it takes to fuel up a gasoline powered vehicle), barring government mandates/bans.

When people ask me how long it takes my PHEV to charge, I'll jokingly say "About 10 seconds" - or in other words, I plug it in and forget about it until it's time to go somewhere. In that time, it's magically back to 100%, unlike refueling a gasoline car which can take those five minutes (or more, if the station is crowded!).


Again, I see PHEVs as the happy medium between pure EVs and pure gas engines.  Almost all of the benefits, none of the drawbacks.
 
hej
2021-11-29 11:42:13 AM  

HeadbangerSmurf: hej: HeadbangerSmurf: GM is a leader in EVs?  According to who?

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/djKJQ2GcNJY]

Your point?  Commercials and politicians aren't cars shipped.


My point is, you asked "according to who?".  Your answer is "Joe Biden".  I'm not saying I agree with it, it's simply an answer to your question.
 
2021-11-29 12:29:59 PM  

eKonk: It's funny - in some colder areas, it's somewhat common to find publicly-accessible 120V outlets on parking lot light posts (convenient to plug in engine block heaters on days when you're lucky to see temperatures get up to zero). Even at a relatively low 8A draw, that would be good enough to get ~4 miles worth of charge per hour (so maybe 30 miles or so of range over the course of a work day), and wouldn't put too much of a strain on the existing power infrastructure unless everyone was doing it.


Exactly. I'd like to have a 120v outlet at my work to plug in an oil pan heater for my Diesel car, but there aren't any.

At a minimum, 120v poise can also heat and cool the battery pack of EVs (needs to be kept at reasonable temperatures for long life) and also be used for heating or cooling the cabin in EVs prior to the owner departing.
 
2021-11-29 12:31:46 PM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: The fuel system on the Volt vacuum seals, thereby preventing the fuel from going stale.


Yes, but it eventually goes stale. It has to consume gasoline because the fuel doesn't last forever.
 
2021-11-29 1:14:14 PM  

Bathtub Cynic: Make an EV that runs just as well (actually, better) than a gas car.

Wait for gasoline to become a rare luxury and let the market dictate the rise of EVs.

Make owning, operating, and maintaining an EV easier than a gas car.

Just ban gasoline use.

Any of these will put EV sales ahead traditional car sales.


Quizzical dog look for your post, specifically items 1 and 3.  Those are a given with any EV on the market.  The kicker has been price point and, foe the most part, EVs are on par with ICE vehicles.  The problem is the naysayers who keep moving the goal post.
 
2021-11-29 1:26:48 PM  

Bathtub Cynic: Make an EV that runs just as well (actually, better) than a gas car.

Wait for gasoline to become a rare luxury and let the market dictate the rise of EVs.

Make owning, operating, and maintaining an EV easier than a gas car.

Just ban gasoline use.

Any of these will put EV sales ahead traditional car sales.


What do you mean by "run better"? EVs already run better than ICE. And they're far easier to own, operate, and maintain. It's why when there are subsidies or a model is released with a price point close to ICE, they fly off the proverbial shelves. In China, BYD has reached price parity between their gas and electric models, and they turned into an almost purely EV company over night.
 
2021-11-29 1:46:39 PM  

Likwit: It's why when there are subsidies or a model is released with a price point close to ICE, they fly off the proverbial shelves.


Not in the US.  Check out the prices for used EVs (non-Tesla).  Dirt cheap compared to similar gas powered models with the same age/mileage.
 
2021-11-29 2:03:27 PM  

Geotpf: Plug in hybrids, no matter the specific form, is the happy medium between gas and electric.


No. They're the worst of both worlds in practically every respect. They're heavy, complex, inefficient, and still burn gas if you want to go anywhere farther than a couple dozen miles. People look at the mpg figures and think they're pretty slick but all electric miles are included in that (in the case of the Mitsubishi Outlander it's apparently added to the average as 236mpg!). Unless you have free electricity, you're still paying for those miles.

Let's take that Mitsubishi Outlander as an example, actually. It costs 13 cents a mile to run on gas according to official figures (which again includes electric range, but we'll give the car a leg up here) and 9 cents a mile on electric. Meanwhile a Tesla Model Y or VW iD4 both weigh less, have far more cargo and passenger space, are less complex, require less maintenance, and cost about 6.5 cents per mile to run. And remember, we included the electric range in our Mitsubishi numbers twice. PHVs suck, my dude.
 
2021-11-29 2:08:02 PM  

Geotpf: Likwit: It's why when there are subsidies or a model is released with a price point close to ICE, they fly off the proverbial shelves.

Not in the US.  Check out the prices for used EVs (non-Tesla).  Dirt cheap compared to similar gas powered models with the same age/mileage.


Of course they're cheaper if there's a subsidy because it doesn't apply to the price of a used vehicle. It will ding the price of use vehicle by at least the subsidy amount. The same phenomenon will apply to Teslas when they're made eligible for the subsidy once more (assuming they're not on a massive backlog when the new gigafactories open).

And I bet if you looked at non-LEAF electric vehicles, the depreciation would be far less pronounced.
 
2021-11-29 2:27:53 PM  

Likwit: And I bet if you looked at non-LEAF electric vehicles, the depreciation would be far less pronounced.


Not really.  Four year old Mercedes or BMWs with 30k miles for $20k.
 
2021-11-29 3:04:40 PM  

Likwit: Geotpf: Plug in hybrids, no matter the specific form, is the happy medium between gas and electric.

No. They're the worst of both worlds in practically every respect. They're heavy, complex, inefficient, and still burn gas if you want to go anywhere farther than a couple dozen miles. People look at the mpg figures and think they're pretty slick but all electric miles are included in that (in the case of the Mitsubishi Outlander it's apparently added to the average as 236mpg!). Unless you have free electricity, you're still paying for those miles.

Let's take that Mitsubishi Outlander as an example, actually. It costs 13 cents a mile to run on gas according to official figures (which again includes electric range, but we'll give the car a leg up here) and 9 cents a mile on electric. Meanwhile a Tesla Model Y or VW iD4 both weigh less, have far more cargo and passenger space, are less complex, require less maintenance, and cost about 6.5 cents per mile to run. And remember, we included the electric range in our Mitsubishi numbers twice. PHVs suck, my dude.


What's the source of your figures?  From what I'm seeing, the Outlander PHEV weighs less than either the Model Y or iD4, which stands to reason as the added battery capacity of the pure EVs weighs more than the combination of lower capacity batteries and gasoline engine/accessories in the PHEV.  This seems to hold true within pretty much any comparable size class of EVs vs. PHEVs (not a big difference, to be sure - less than 10% weight advantage in favor of PHEVs).

It's hard to find official numbers on electric-only efficiency on PHEVs, but electrical efficiency should be fairly comparable to the EV counterpart - a slight advantage due to lighter weight, but slight disadvantage due to worse aerodynamics (greater cooling needs for gasoline engine), which would suggest a PHEV fairs slightly better in low-speed driving with frequent starts/stops but worse in higher/sustained speed driving.

My own experience in a Volt puts me at a typical efficiency of about 4 miles per kWh, with the range being probably 2.5 miles per kWh if I'm running the heater/driving in snow/slush to 5+ miles per kWh when driving like a grandma in warm (no heat or A/C) weather.  That's pretty close to reports from most similarly-sized EVs, though purely anecdotal and should be treated as such.

The one area where PHEVs suck in comparison tends to be when comparing gasoline efficiency to a regular hybrid.  Where a regular Prius will get 50+ mpg, my Volt is lucky to get 40 mpg. Blame the added battery weight for that.

All-in-all, I prefer the PHEV to either pure EVs or pure gasoline. For my use, it works nearly perfectly.  That said, if I had to get something new today I would probably go for a regular hybrid (Ford Maverick), as it could replace both my Volt and my old Ranger with minimal tradeoffs. I would miss plugging in, but I wouldn't mind too much with fuel economy in the upper 30s.
 
2021-11-29 3:25:38 PM  

Likwit: Geotpf: Plug in hybrids, no matter the specific form, is the happy medium between gas and electric.

No. They're the worst of both worlds in practically every respect. They're heavy, complex, inefficient, and still burn gas if you want to go anywhere farther than a couple dozen miles. People look at the mpg figures and think they're pretty slick but all electric miles are included in that (in the case of the Mitsubishi Outlander it's apparently added to the average as 236mpg!). Unless you have free electricity, you're still paying for those miles.


That EV-only range really depends on the vehicle.  For hybrids that are based on older ICEV platforms, you usually have a power-split (adaptable series-parallel) hybrid setup with a moderately powerful combustion engine and a mediocre electric powertrain.  The 42 mi / 68 km EV-only range of the RAV4 Prime is about as good as you're going to get anytime soon.  For hybrids based on BEV platforms, you usually have a serial-hybrid setup with a tiny combustion engine and a much better electric powertrain.  Look at the BMW i3 with the range extender option (600 cc gasoline engine) which has a 126 mi / 202 km EV-only range as an example of the latter.

And while they are more complex than either a pure ICEV or pure BEV, a PHEV can significantly reduce tailpipe emissions over a pure ICEV, especially in urban areas.  They also offer some fuel reliability benefits to drivers in areas with poor fast DC charging infrastructure who make frequent long trips but want to dip their toe in the EV market.

Just think of them as a bridge technology until batteries and charging catches up to where it needs to be.  Not great, but has its uses.
 
2021-11-29 5:02:35 PM  

Geotpf: Likwit: And I bet if you looked at non-LEAF electric vehicles, the depreciation would be far less pronounced.

Not really.  Four year old Mercedes or BMWs with 30k miles for $20k.


Lol. Mercedes and BMWs depreciate like crazy. You're not really proving anything there.
 
2021-11-29 5:15:20 PM  

eKonk: fuel economy in the upper 30s


Having to go to a gas station and pump stinky-ass gas and smell exhaust everyday and whatever else aside, this is where you lose me. That's a terrible figure. That's 3.5 to 4t of CO2 a year if you drive the American average. And for how much I drive, that would put my fuel costs at about $275 bucks a month (assuming 37mpg). That's a whole extra car payment.
 
2021-11-29 5:19:42 PM  

eKonk: What's the source of your figures?


I just googled "Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV curb weight," "Mitsubishi Outlander km/kWh," "Tesla Model Y curb weight," etc, etc. For the Model Y and iD4 I used 6km/kWh and 5.7km/kWh because I know they don't hit their official figures. I always fudge in favor of the gas car because it proves my point more and when comparing ICE to EV, you can easily afford it
 
2021-11-29 5:22:12 PM  

Likwit: Geotpf: Likwit: And I bet if you looked at non-LEAF electric vehicles, the depreciation would be far less pronounced.

Not really.  Four year old Mercedes or BMWs with 30k miles for $20k.

Lol. Mercedes and BMWs depreciate like crazy. You're not really proving anything there.


They are tens of thousands less than gas powered BMWs and Mercedes of similar age and mileage.
 
2021-11-29 5:27:34 PM  

Geotpf: Likwit: Geotpf: Likwit: And I bet if you looked at non-LEAF electric vehicles, the depreciation would be far less pronounced.

Not really.  Four year old Mercedes or BMWs with 30k miles for $20k.

Lol. Mercedes and BMWs depreciate like crazy. You're not really proving anything there.

They are tens of thousands less than gas powered BMWs and Mercedes of similar age and mileage.


Which models vs. which models?
 
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