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(NPR)   Today's Fark headline challenge: Is it fair to deny lung transplants to COVID-19 victims who refuse to be vaccinated?   (npr.org) divider line
    More: Obvious, Immune system, Organ transplant, lung transplants, Vaccine, day, COVID-19 patients, Vaccination, COVID patients  
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1953 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Nov 2021 at 4:02 PM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-11-28 11:58:40 AM  
Might have to, fair or not. Lungs don't grow on trees around here.
 
2021-11-28 12:04:13 PM  
I've heard the same question asked about smokers, alcoholics, drug users, etc., when it comes to transplants, and medical care in general.   It's a fair question, I guess, but one I'm not qualified to answer.....except that, in all cases, these people knew, or should have known, the risks, and decided to fark around anyway.
 
2021-11-28 12:04:17 PM  
Is it fair to deny liver transplants to alcoholics who won't stop drinking?  Yes, it's fair - to the people who get that liver instead.

Transplant recipients have to take immunosuppressive treatments so if they're a nincompoop who balks at getting a safe, proven vaccine, they're certainly not going to follow doctor's orders post-transplant.
 
2021-11-28 12:06:09 PM  
Today's headline question challenge: is it fair to deny lung transplants to COVID victims who refuse to be vaccinated?


Yes. You abused it, you lose it.

Hospitals can claim that's their personal freedom exercised.
 
2021-11-28 12:10:38 PM  
I object to subby's use of the word "victims"  - I think "volunteers" would be more appropriate.
 
2021-11-28 12:16:02 PM  
Yes.

Transplant organs are a desperate and finite need, and the teams who match organs do so looking for matches that are most likely to thrive. When you are put on to a list to need an organ you are told a long list of things you MUST do to qualify. Showing that you can obey best practices and follow medical advice is a *necessity*

Why should we give new lungs to someone who refuses to protect themselves against the disease that killed their lungs? Why is this a conversation?  fark off
 
2021-11-28 12:16:52 PM  
If they were not vaccinated due to their own choices and acquired a case of Covid to the point of requiring a transplant, I would not deny them a transplant, but would place them at the bottom of the transplant list.  If there is anyone vaccinated who requires lungs and the tissue match is close enough then the vaccinated person gets priority.

But, that is predicated on them becoming vaccinated before any surgery takes place.

No vaccine, no lungs.
 
2021-11-28 12:37:22 PM  
This December will be 24 years for Mrs. Farkie's double lung transplant.  Thankfully, through the miracle of modern medicine, she's been able to stay healthy all these years, with a few bouts of some serious colds here and there, but no worse than the average population.. Also, she's been able to keep enough lung capacity to maintain her three pack a day smoking habit..

/kidding bout the smoking bit..
//and yes, if you're too farking stupid to avoid vaccination, you're probably too stupid to stay healthy post-transplant.  It requires discipline, constant meds, checkups, and so on..
 
2021-11-28 12:39:29 PM  
I imagine that lung transplant surgery requires a lot of "foreign" materials to be introduced into the recipient's body.  If they're so concerned about a single vaccination that millions of people have already received without issue, how would they react to all the other materials introduced during and after the surgery?  Are they going to just double-dose on ivermectin and juice cleanse later instead?
 
2021-11-28 12:50:07 PM  
Just tell them the lungs came from someone who was vaccinated and they won't want them anymore.
 
2021-11-28 1:16:57 PM  
It isn't even a discussion, a person that doesn't follow medical advice doesn't get a transplant. Not vaccinated means no transplant
 
2021-11-28 1:21:45 PM  
Farkers don't think the unvaccinated deserve medical care, why in the hell would they support transplants?
 
2021-11-28 1:35:35 PM  

Lsherm: Farkers don't think the unvaccinated deserve medical care, why in the hell would they support transplants?


Careful you don't cut yourself on that edge
 
2021-11-28 1:41:06 PM  
The transplant list and program is run by unos and rules prohibit transplants to people that refuse to follow best medical advice. Alcoholics are not even allowed on the liver transplant list until sober for 6 months plus. It would be considered unethical to waste a lung transplant on the unvaxxed.
https://unos.org/transplant/
 
2021-11-28 1:55:24 PM  

Lsherm: Farkers don't think the unvaccinated deserve medical care, why in the hell would they support transplants?


And they'd better use the bathroom based on the lungs they were born with!
 
2021-11-28 2:01:57 PM  
Would you give a liver to a boozer?
 
2021-11-28 2:04:17 PM  

eurotrader: The transplant list and program is run by unos and rules prohibit transplants to people that refuse to follow best medical advice. Alcoholics are not even allowed on the liver transplant list until sober for 6 months plus. It would be considered unethical to waste a lung transplant on the unvaxxed.
https://unos.org/transplant/


Citation of where they have said that, please.  I have seen nothing in the Analytic Hierarchy Process that mentions vaccination status.  The closest thing would be the 1-year survival probability, but how they calculate that mentions nothing about vaccinations.
 
2021-11-28 2:06:12 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: eurotrader: The transplant list and program is run by unos and rules prohibit transplants to people that refuse to follow best medical advice. Alcoholics are not even allowed on the liver transplant list until sober for 6 months plus. It would be considered unethical to waste a lung transplant on the unvaxxed.
https://unos.org/transplant/

Citation of where they have said that, please.  I have seen nothing in the Analytic Hierarchy Process that mentions vaccination status.  The closest thing would be the 1-year survival probability, but how they calculate that mentions nothing about vaccinations.


We already have had a story where someone was bumped from the transplant list because they refused to get the shot and it was a family donation.
 
2021-11-28 2:11:28 PM  

vudukungfu: Would you give a liver to a boozer?


nydailynews.comView Full Size


*HIC*  Hell yeah!
 
2021-11-28 2:12:38 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: eurotrader: The transplant list and program is run by unos and rules prohibit transplants to people that refuse to follow best medical advice. Alcoholics are not even allowed on the liver transplant list until sober for 6 months plus. It would be considered unethical to waste a lung transplant on the unvaxxed.
https://unos.org/transplant/

Citation of where they have said that, please.  I have seen nothing in the Analytic Hierarchy Process that mentions vaccination status.  The closest thing would be the 1-year survival probability, but how they calculate that mentions nothing about vaccinations.


Ethical considerations done reasonably well on why a Covid vaccination for transplants should be required.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ajt.16878
 
2021-11-28 2:13:13 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: vudukungfu: Would you give a liver to a boozer?

[nydailynews.com image 415x569]

*HIC*  Hell yeah!


That liver was bought
 
2021-11-28 2:14:04 PM  

BizarreMan: Benevolent Misanthrope: eurotrader: The transplant list and program is run by unos and rules prohibit transplants to people that refuse to follow best medical advice. Alcoholics are not even allowed on the liver transplant list until sober for 6 months plus. It would be considered unethical to waste a lung transplant on the unvaxxed.
https://unos.org/transplant/

Citation of where they have said that, please.  I have seen nothing in the Analytic Hierarchy Process that mentions vaccination status.  The closest thing would be the 1-year survival probability, but how they calculate that mentions nothing about vaccinations.

We already have had a story where someone was bumped from the transplant list because they refused to get the shot and it was a family donation.


Ah - I missed that.  I wonder who made the decision?  The doctor, in the articles I've just looked up, not the organ donor network.  But yeah - if I were a doctor, I'd be very unlikely to refer someone to the transplant network if they refused to get vaccinated.
 
2021-11-28 2:17:57 PM  

eurotrader: Benevolent Misanthrope: vudukungfu: Would you give a liver to a boozer?

[nydailynews.com image 415x569]

*HIC*  Hell yeah!

That liver was bought


Yeah, it's the US health system.  You can buy your way up the list, if you have enough money.  It will be interesting to see how many rich assholes will do that when their unvaxxed lungs or other organs fail from COVID.
 
2021-11-28 2:20:19 PM  

BizarreMan: If they were not vaccinated due to their own choices and acquired a case of Covid to the point of requiring a transplant, I would not deny them a transplant, but would place them at the bottom of the transplant list.

If there is anyone vaccinated who requires lungs and the tissue match is close enough then the vaccinated person gets priority.

But, that is predicated on them becoming vaccinated before any surgery takes place.

No vaccine, no lungs.


I don't entirely agree.  Not only must they be vaccinated.  They must not be anti-vaxxers and they must be people that were pro-actively vaccinated.  Not just getting the vaccine to get the transplant.

You don't risk such a vital treasure on someone who may not be trusted to get vaccinated in the future for a new variant or an entirely new and unrelated virus.
 
2021-11-28 2:30:14 PM  

BizarreMan: If they were not vaccinated due to their own choices and acquired a case of Covid to the point of requiring a transplant, I would not deny them a transplant, but would place them at the bottom of the transplant list.  If there is anyone vaccinated who requires lungs and the tissue match is close enough then the vaccinated person gets priority.

But, that is predicated on them becoming vaccinated before any surgery takes place.

No vaccine, no lungs.


WP
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-11-28 2:31:46 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: BizarreMan: Benevolent Misanthrope: eurotrader: The transplant list and program is run by unos and rules prohibit transplants to people that refuse to follow best medical advice. Alcoholics are not even allowed on the liver transplant list until sober for 6 months plus. It would be considered unethical to waste a lung transplant on the unvaxxed.
https://unos.org/transplant/

Citation of where they have said that, please.  I have seen nothing in the Analytic Hierarchy Process that mentions vaccination status.  The closest thing would be the 1-year survival probability, but how they calculate that mentions nothing about vaccinations.

We already have had a story where someone was bumped from the transplant list because they refused to get the shot and it was a family donation.

Ah - I missed that.  I wonder who made the decision?  The doctor, in the articles I've just looked up, not the organ donor network.  But yeah - if I were a doctor, I'd be very unlikely to refer someone to the transplant network if they refused to get vaccinated.


Cleveland Hospital.

There was a Fark thread about it when it hit.
 
2021-11-28 2:33:07 PM  
It it not only fair.

It is Morally Required.

Obligatory.

In situation of critically limited lifesaving resources, only those who are willing to follow the best available medicine and honor the gift of the dead are worthy. Period.

I will die on this hill.
 
2021-11-28 2:39:41 PM  

Lsherm: Farkers don't think the unvaccinated deserve medical care


If you can't be bothered to get a simple, easy and free vaccine to fight a global deadly pandemic, why do you deserve to take up hospital space a stroke or heart attack victim needs?
 
2021-11-28 2:57:17 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-11-28 3:16:39 PM  
Today's answer: Yes.

Today's reason: There is a whole laundry list of rules you have to follow to get on/stay on the list, current vaccinations are just one thing. As others have pointed out if you don't follow the rules everyone on the list has to follow you don't get on the list.

Does it suck for them? Yes, but it's no different than refusing a liver transplant to someone that won't stop drinking. Of course, those rules go out the window if someone is rich enough to buy their transplant organ but everybody knows that.
 
2021-11-28 3:29:15 PM  
Is medical care a right, or a product?
 
2021-11-28 4:06:20 PM  

Sliding Carp: Is medical care a right, or a product?


"If I don't give people organs who have proven they won't take the necessary steps to keep them safe and give them a good quality of life after transplant, it's exactly like letting people die in the streets because they can't pay up front"
 
2021-11-28 4:08:18 PM  

vudukungfu: Would you give a liver to a boozer?


th.bing.comView Full Size


/Obscure?
//Twofer for your question in that picture.
///THREE
 
2021-11-28 4:08:44 PM  
Yes.
 
2021-11-28 4:10:45 PM  
Yes, in the same way that it is accepted medical procedure to evaluate a liver transplant patient if they are an alcoholic, and continuing to abuse the liver if they get a new one.

If the possible recipient is not going to properly care for the "gifted" organ, then they should not be allowed to get it in the first place.
 
2021-11-28 4:11:51 PM  
Just give them the lungs of people who died from COVID. I'm sure there are plenty of those lying around.
 
2021-11-28 4:12:21 PM  

Lsherm: Farkers don't think the unvaccinated deserve medical care, why in the hell would they support transplants?


They deserve the best care that Doctor Facebook can provide.
 
2021-11-28 4:12:27 PM  
Yes. Next question?
 
2021-11-28 4:13:20 PM  
Yes. Next!
 
2021-11-28 4:13:46 PM  
The way the plague rats are voluntarily being covid bioreactors and dispersal units, they not only shouldn't get lungs, they should get NOTHING!  Tax them 100%.  Refuse them all medical care.  Have their drivers licenses revoked.  Have their citizenship revoked.
 
2021-11-28 4:14:51 PM  

eurotrader: The transplant list and program is run by unos and rules prohibit transplants to people that refuse to follow best medical advice. Alcoholics are not even allowed on the liver transplant list until sober for 6 months plus. It would be considered unethical to waste a lung transplant on the unvaxxed.
https://unos.org/transplant/


I'm surprised it's only six months sober for alcoholics to be eligible.  You'd think it would be a year.  Lot of triggers can happen around specific dates/times of year, etc., so I'd assume they want the patient to have proven to themselves that they can make it through those times.

/4 years here
 
2021-11-28 4:15:18 PM  

X-Geek: Just give them the lungs of people who died from COVID. I'm sure there are plenty of those lying around.


God_Damn!.gif
 
2021-11-28 4:16:25 PM  
Can't we tell them they're getting a transplant and then harvest their organs once they're under? Tell the family they didn't survive the procedure.

/ What?
 
2021-11-28 4:17:25 PM  
Yes.

Next question.
 
2021-11-28 4:19:14 PM  

bthom37: eurotrader: The transplant list and program is run by unos and rules prohibit transplants to people that refuse to follow best medical advice. Alcoholics are not even allowed on the liver transplant list until sober for 6 months plus. It would be considered unethical to waste a lung transplant on the unvaxxed.
https://unos.org/transplant/

I'm surprised it's only six months sober for alcoholics to be eligible.  You'd think it would be a year.  Lot of triggers can happen around specific dates/times of year, etc., so I'd assume they want the patient to have proven to themselves that they can make it through those times.

/4 years here


5 years here from alcohol, I was diagnosed with end-stage liver disease due to cirrhosis due to alcoholic hepatitis, I was getting paracentesis where they suck the fluid your liver leaked into your abdomen out, one session they took 5 liters out, and was on the transplant list. I wasn't supposed to do marijuana, but I am convinced marijuana is the reason why my liver is back to what is considered normal function less than 5 years later.
 
2021-11-28 4:19:52 PM  
YES.

That's why it's so dangerous to allow the vaccination "question" be a question at all. As soon as it becomes a personal / philosophical / religious choice, then the door has been opened: Some will plead, "We can't deny him a life-saving transplant just because he made a heartfelt CHOICE."
Instead, it is your duty as a citizen to be vaccinated, just like it's your duty to pay taxes toward the government that helps you live and thrive safely, just like it's your duty to stop your car at a stop sign.
 
2021-11-28 4:21:22 PM  

bthom37: eurotrader: The transplant list and program is run by unos and rules prohibit transplants to people that refuse to follow best medical advice. Alcoholics are not even allowed on the liver transplant list until sober for 6 months plus. It would be considered unethical to waste a lung transplant on the unvaxxed.
https://unos.org/transplant/

I'm surprised it's only six months sober for alcoholics to be eligible.  You'd think it would be a year.  Lot of triggers can happen around specific dates/times of year, etc., so I'd assume they want the patient to have proven to themselves that they can make it through those times.

/4 years here


If you need a liver transplant generally you don't have a year.
 
2021-11-28 4:21:43 PM  
Yes. Any other already settled questions?
 
2021-11-28 4:21:45 PM  
Yes because transplants already have stringent requirements of responsibility from the patients that are eligible to receive them, well above and beyond one choice politicized vaccine.

That this is even a question is because we keep indulging these punch drunk morons.  I'm so, so tired of them.
 
2021-11-28 4:23:13 PM  

Somacandra: Lsherm: Farkers don't think the unvaccinated deserve medical care

If you can't be bothered to get a simple, easy and free vaccine to fight a global deadly pandemic, why do you deserve to take up hospital space a stroke or heart attack victim needs?


Precisely. Simple, easy and free are key concepts in all of this. We're not asking folks to run a marathon to "earn" their lung transplant. Just sit still for a little prick.
 
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