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(Guardian)   3D imaging enables exact copies of statues and artifacts, even in original stone. So why not repatriate the originals to the people who care about their heritage   (theguardian.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, British Museum, Elgin Marbles, Parthenon, Acropolis of Athens, British government, Acropolis Museum, Boris Johnson, Thomas Bruce, 7th Earl of Elgin  
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999 clicks; posted to Business » and STEM » on 26 Nov 2021 at 11:35 PM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-11-26 6:12:39 PM  
 
2021-11-26 6:24:03 PM  
c.tenor.comView Full Size
 
2021-11-26 8:04:30 PM  
If a 3D copy can be perfect and is just as good then give a 3D copy back to Greece.

/Personally I wouldn't have a problem with giving it back and keeping a copy. Greece clearly has the intent and resources to preserve and display them. But it would set a precedent.
Fark user imageView Full Size


Fact is in previous centuries huge numbers of works have been lost, destroyed, looted or stolen by not only the British but the French and pretty much every empire as well as by locals. The nose of the sphynx was destroyed deliberately by a local. The white limestone covering of the great pyramids was used as building material and so on. If the British hadn't got them chances are someone else would have or they would have been lost forever. Look at the many works destroyed by Isis in the last couple of years.
 
2021-11-26 8:26:20 PM  
The crown never regifts.
 
2021-11-26 9:00:53 PM  
That's not how genocide works
 
2021-11-26 10:17:16 PM  
Scotland would like their scone of stone back too.
 
2021-11-26 11:03:06 PM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: If a 3D copy can be perfect and is just as good then give a 3D copy back to Greece.

/Personally I wouldn't have a problem with giving it back and keeping a copy. Greece clearly has the intent and resources to preserve and display them. But it would set a precedent.
[Fark user image 600x660]

Fact is in previous centuries huge numbers of works have been lost, destroyed, looted or stolen by not only the British but the French and pretty much every empire as well as by locals. The nose of the sphynx was destroyed deliberately by a local. The white limestone covering of the great pyramids was used as building material and so on. If the British hadn't got them chances are someone else would have or they would have been lost forever. Look at the many works destroyed by Isis in the last couple of years.


And virtually every Roman building got 'recycled' by the locals after the Romans left Britain in 400's.

Well that shiat was just lying around unused
 
2021-11-27 12:12:55 AM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: If a 3D copy can be perfect and is just as good then give a 3D copy back to Greece.

/Personally I wouldn't have a problem with giving it back and keeping a copy. Greece clearly has the intent and resources to preserve and display them. But it would set a precedent.
[Fark user image 600x660]

Fact is in previous centuries huge numbers of works have been lost, destroyed, looted or stolen by not only the British but the French and pretty much every empire as well as by locals. The nose of the sphynx was destroyed deliberately by a local. The white limestone covering of the great pyramids was used as building material and so on. If the British hadn't got them chances are someone else would have or they would have been lost forever. Look at the many works destroyed by Isis in the last couple of years.


The Parthenon was used to store gunpowder. You can guess by the results how that went.
 
2021-11-27 12:34:21 AM  
That's why those really good forgeries of great works of art are all worth millions. Practically the same thing!
 
2021-11-27 12:49:00 AM  
etching, the word is etching

you cannot 3-D print stone or marble.  If it could i would be refinancing my home to buy printer that makes Stone sculptures, and not some plastic bauble

Love to be able to 3-D print a screw, or bolt that can withstand SOME stress.  Seems most of the plastic crap i buy from China can barely stand up to be used by a 2 year old toddler with a sugar high
 
2021-11-27 1:02:28 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


The Hell I wouldn't. A copy of Rodin's "Fallen Caryatid", too.
 
2021-11-27 1:21:25 AM  
I guess this means I should finally return the Colossus of Rhodes.
 
2021-11-27 1:26:22 AM  
We're doomed...
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-11-27 1:50:12 AM  

kkinnison: etching, the word is etching

you cannot 3-D print stone or marble.  If it could i would be refinancing my home to buy printer that makes Stone sculptures, and not some plastic bauble

Love to be able to 3-D print a screw, or bolt that can withstand SOME stress.  Seems most of the plastic crap i buy from China can barely stand up to be used by a 2 year old toddler with a sugar high


This might be off topic but one can get a small tabletop CNC machine and you can make all the screws , nuts and bolts that you wish to. And there are plenty of places that can do any Rockwell hardness , you might have one in your town.
 
2021-11-27 2:09:43 AM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: If a 3D copy can be perfect and is just as good then give a 3D copy back to Greece.

/Personally I wouldn't have a problem with giving it back and keeping a copy. Greece clearly has the intent and resources to preserve and display them. But it would set a precedent.
[Fark user image image 600x660]

Fact is in previous centuries huge numbers of works have been lost, destroyed, looted or stolen by not only the British but the French and pretty much every empire as well as by locals. The nose of the sphynx was destroyed deliberately by a local. The white limestone covering of the great pyramids was used as building material and so on. If the British hadn't got them chances are someone else would have or they would have been lost forever. Look at the many works destroyed by Isis in the last couple of years.


"It's alright we ripped up your societies, destroyed the local order, and took all your stuff because if we hadn't someone else would have and there might not even be this little bit we refuse to give back to you left." is not the good guy position you want to believe it is.
 
2021-11-27 3:32:18 AM  

vudukungfu: That's not how genocide works


And this isn't a discussion about genocide...
 
2021-11-27 7:07:37 AM  
Also the statues and monuments should be painted as they originally were. The "classical" whitewash look is trashy and gauche.
 
2021-11-27 8:00:10 AM  
What, is this some demonic plan to bankrupt the richest country (per capita) in the world?
 
2021-11-27 8:05:48 AM  
I went to an exhibit of Egyptian artifacts. I think the columns they had on display were just plastic reproductions. Would be easy to make a mold of the original.
 
2021-11-27 8:08:29 AM  
The Greeks want some artifacts back that were taken from them when they were conquered by the Ottoman empire.

Do they not understand what "conquered" means?
 
2021-11-27 8:41:32 AM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: If a 3D copy can be perfect and is just as good then give a 3D copy back to Greece.

/Personally I wouldn't have a problem with giving it back and keeping a copy. Greece clearly has the intent and resources to preserve and display them. But it would set a precedent.
[Fark user image image 600x660]

Fact is in previous centuries huge numbers of works have been lost, destroyed, looted or stolen by not only the British but the French and pretty much every empire as well as by locals. The nose of the sphynx was destroyed deliberately by a local. The white limestone covering of the great pyramids was used as building material and so on. If the British hadn't got them chances are someone else would have or they would have been lost forever. Look at the many works destroyed by Isis in the last couple of years.


If Mao had his way there would have been no Chinese artifacts left.
 
2021-11-27 9:03:29 AM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: If a 3D copy can be perfect and is just as good then give a 3D copy back to Greece.

/Personally I wouldn't have a problem with giving it back and keeping a copy. Greece clearly has the intent and resources to preserve and display them. But it would set a precedent.
[Fark user image image 600x660]

Fact is in previous centuries huge numbers of works have been lost, destroyed, looted or stolen by not only the British but the French and pretty much every empire as well as by locals. The nose of the sphynx was destroyed deliberately by a local. The white limestone covering of the great pyramids was used as building material and so on. If the British hadn't got them chances are someone else would have or they would have been lost forever. Look at the many works destroyed by Isis in the last couple of years.


The Colliseum is sitting on gravity alone, the locals slowly took all the metal fixtures and alot of bricks over the centuries.
 
2021-11-27 9:06:05 AM  

vudukungfu: That's not how genocide works


You're right.  Taking things from people is theft.  Genocide requires intentionally killing them.  So it literally is not how genocide works.
 
2021-11-27 9:07:03 AM  

fortheloveof: Carter Pewterschmidt: If a 3D copy can be perfect and is just as good then give a 3D copy back to Greece.

/Personally I wouldn't have a problem with giving it back and keeping a copy. Greece clearly has the intent and resources to preserve and display them. But it would set a precedent.
[Fark user image image 600x660]

Fact is in previous centuries huge numbers of works have been lost, destroyed, looted or stolen by not only the British but the French and pretty much every empire as well as by locals. The nose of the sphynx was destroyed deliberately by a local. The white limestone covering of the great pyramids was used as building material and so on. If the British hadn't got them chances are someone else would have or they would have been lost forever. Look at the many works destroyed by Isis in the last couple of years.

"It's alright we ripped up your societies, destroyed the local order, and took all your stuff because if we hadn't someone else would have and there might not even be this little bit we refuse to give back to you left." is not the good guy position you want to believe it is.


And that's not what happened in each and every instance so maybe taking hyperbole and running in the opposite direction doesn't do any justice, either.

It really boils down to this: who do you trust to best keep these items?

I trust the British. The Iraqis sold like half their museum stuff during the war because when push comes to shove, people like money and eating more than they like old statues. It happens.

I think a good equation is this: is the country of origin more stable than the current country it resides in? Most cases, it is not.
 
2021-11-27 9:10:19 AM  

American-Irish eyes: Carter Pewterschmidt: If a 3D copy can be perfect and is just as good then give a 3D copy back to Greece.

/Personally I wouldn't have a problem with giving it back and keeping a copy. Greece clearly has the intent and resources to preserve and display them. But it would set a precedent.
[Fark user image image 600x660]

Fact is in previous centuries huge numbers of works have been lost, destroyed, looted or stolen by not only the British but the French and pretty much every empire as well as by locals. The nose of the sphynx was destroyed deliberately by a local. The white limestone covering of the great pyramids was used as building material and so on. If the British hadn't got them chances are someone else would have or they would have been lost forever. Look at the many works destroyed by Isis in the last couple of years.

If Mao had his way there would have been no Chinese artifacts left.


Mao killed more people than Hitler and Stalin *COMBINED*.  One could argue that you can count the Chinese people as "artifacts", in that case.
 
2021-11-27 10:06:40 AM  
Some groups in the past have tried to delete history by destroying artifacts.  But it's theirs.  I'm on the fence.
 
2021-11-27 10:27:35 AM  
This entire premise that you can "recreate" works of art is ridiculous. There are just too many variables that to keep a 1:1 accuracy will literally never happen. This isn't the solution they think it is.
 
2021-11-27 11:51:57 AM  

Bathtub Cynic: fortheloveof: Carter Pewterschmidt: If a 3D copy can be perfect and is just as good then give a 3D copy back to Greece.

/Personally I wouldn't have a problem with giving it back and keeping a copy. Greece clearly has the intent and resources to preserve and display them. But it would set a precedent.
[Fark user image image 600x660]

Fact is in previous centuries huge numbers of works have been lost, destroyed, looted or stolen by not only the British but the French and pretty much every empire as well as by locals. The nose of the sphynx was destroyed deliberately by a local. The white limestone covering of the great pyramids was used as building material and so on. If the British hadn't got them chances are someone else would have or they would have been lost forever. Look at the many works destroyed by Isis in the last couple of years.

"It's alright we ripped up your societies, destroyed the local order, and took all your stuff because if we hadn't someone else would have and there might not even be this little bit we refuse to give back to you left." is not the good guy position you want to believe it is.

And that's not what happened in each and every instance so maybe taking hyperbole and running in the opposite direction doesn't do any justice, either.

It really boils down to this: who do you trust to best keep these items?

I trust the British. The Iraqis sold like half their museum stuff during the war because when push comes to shove, people like money and eating more than they like old statues. It happens.

I think a good equation is this: is the country of origin more stable than the current country it resides in? Most cases, it is not.


"We took your culture to protect it from you and nevermind the fact we continue to profit off of it because you would have just sold it anyways" is not the defense of theft you think it is.

The fact that the follow up to this is when the cultures ask for their stuff back the British say no makes the stewardship defense show as the lie it is.

"You don't appreciate the value of your own cultural artifacts" is also a pretty damning ethnocentric approach especially given the amount of farking the British have done to these same cultures.
 
2021-11-27 12:06:22 PM  

fortheloveof: "We took your culture to protect it from you and nevermind the fact we continue to profit off of it because you would have just sold it anyways" is not the defense of theft you think it is.

The fact that the follow up to this is when the cultures ask for their stuff back the British say no makes the stewardship defense show as the lie it is.

"You don't appreciate the value of your own cultural artifacts" is also a pretty damning ethnocentric approach especially given the amount of farking the British have done to these same cultures.


The whole reason they use that lie is because they're too chicken to say "Yes, we took it, because we won, and you lost. That's what losing entails. Get over it."
 
2021-11-27 12:57:24 PM  

fortheloveof: "We took your culture to protect it from you and nevermind the fact we continue to profit off of it because you would have just sold it anyways" is not the defense of theft you think it is.

The fact that the follow up to this is when the cultures ask for their stuff back the British Americans say no makes the stewardship defense show as the lie it is.

"You don't appreciate the value of your own cultural artifacts" is also a pretty damning ethnocentric approach especially given the amount of farking the British Americans have done to these same cultures.


Hey look, it is the Smithsonian.
 
2021-11-27 2:26:31 PM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: If a 3D copy can be perfect and is just as good then give a 3D copy back to Greece.

/Personally I wouldn't have a problem with giving it back and keeping a copy. Greece clearly has the intent and resources to preserve and display them. But it would set a precedent.
[Fark user image image 600x660]

Fact is in previous centuries huge numbers of works have been lost, destroyed, looted or stolen by not only the British but the French and pretty much every empire as well as by locals. The nose of the sphynx was destroyed deliberately by a local. The white limestone covering of the great pyramids was used as building material and so on. If the British hadn't got them chances are someone else would have or they would have been lost forever. Look at the many works destroyed by Isis in the last couple of years.


Yes, those ungrateful wogs should be thanking the Crown for preserving their cultural heritage......in London.
 
2021-11-27 4:28:11 PM  
Look, the British Museum perfectly showcases the priceless cultural heritage of the British - going around the world and stealing other peoples' priceless cultural heritages.
 
2021-11-27 4:47:39 PM  

Sum Dum Gai: Look, the British Museum perfectly showcases the priceless cultural heritage of the British - going around the world and stealing other peoples' priceless cultural heritages.


They didn't steal.  They conquered.  Robbery maybe because stealing didn't imply use of force.
 
2021-11-27 4:49:34 PM  

dittybopper: vudukungfu: That's not how genocide works

You're right.  Taking things from people is theft.  Genocide requires intentionally killing them.  So it literally is not how genocide works.


Wrong.  Apparently words don't have meanings, and genocide can be anything.  It is now "Genocide" to demand whole wrong cultures (like cultures with slavery) be mind wiped and reprogrammed to have the right ideas on slavery.
 
2021-11-27 7:00:43 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: dittybopper: vudukungfu: That's not how genocide works

You're right.  Taking things from people is theft.  Genocide requires intentionally killing them.  So it literally is not how genocide works.

Wrong.  Apparently words don't have meanings, and genocide can be anything.  It is now "Genocide" to demand whole wrong cultures (like cultures with slavery) be mind wiped and reprogrammed to have the right ideas on slavery.


What happens when you rob a people of their culture? It's effectively genocide. We Canadians did this to indigenous people in the form of residential schools (where many children were also actually killed, on purpose or by neglect). So yeah, it's effectively the same.
 
2021-11-27 7:04:37 PM  

slantsix: AmbassadorBooze: dittybopper: vudukungfu: That's not how genocide works

You're right.  Taking things from people is theft.  Genocide requires intentionally killing them.  So it literally is not how genocide works.

Wrong.  Apparently words don't have meanings, and genocide can be anything.  It is now "Genocide" to demand whole wrong cultures (like cultures with slavery) be mind wiped and reprogrammed to have the right ideas on slavery.

What happens when you rob a people of their culture? It's effectively genocide. We Canadians did this to indigenous people in the form of residential schools (where many children were also actually killed, on purpose or by neglect). So yeah, it's effectively the same.


"Genocide"  combining the Greek word γένος (genos, "race, people") with the Latin suffix -caedo ("act of killing")

is it "genocide" if people don't die?
 
2021-11-27 7:05:22 PM  

slantsix: AmbassadorBooze: dittybopper: vudukungfu: That's not how genocide works

You're right.  Taking things from people is theft.  Genocide requires intentionally killing them.  So it literally is not how genocide works.

Wrong.  Apparently words don't have meanings, and genocide can be anything.  It is now "Genocide" to demand whole wrong cultures (like cultures with slavery) be mind wiped and reprogrammed to have the right ideas on slavery.

What happens when you rob a people of their culture? It's effectively genocide. We Canadians did this to indigenous people in the form of residential schools (where many children were also actually killed, on purpose or by neglect). So yeah, it's effectively the same.


What you are referring to is something like culturalcide.

Yes, I know, words no longer have meaning.
 
2021-11-27 7:06:29 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: slantsix: AmbassadorBooze: dittybopper: vudukungfu: That's not how genocide works

You're right.  Taking things from people is theft.  Genocide requires intentionally killing them.  So it literally is not how genocide works.

Wrong.  Apparently words don't have meanings, and genocide can be anything.  It is now "Genocide" to demand whole wrong cultures (like cultures with slavery) be mind wiped and reprogrammed to have the right ideas on slavery.

What happens when you rob a people of their culture? It's effectively genocide. We Canadians did this to indigenous people in the form of residential schools (where many children were also actually killed, on purpose or by neglect). So yeah, it's effectively the same.

What you are referring to is something like culturalcide.

Yes, I know, words no longer have meaning.


Or, it is genocide whenever a single person dies?
 
2021-11-27 7:50:53 PM  

alienated: kkinnison: etching, the word is etching

you cannot 3-D print stone or marble.  If it could i would be refinancing my home to buy printer that makes Stone sculptures, and not some plastic bauble

Love to be able to 3-D print a screw, or bolt that can withstand SOME stress.  Seems most of the plastic crap i buy from China can barely stand up to be used by a 2 year old toddler with a sugar high

This might be off topic but one can get a small tabletop CNC machine and you can make all the screws , nuts and bolts that you wish to. And there are plenty of places that can do any Rockwell hardness , you might have one in your town.


Or a metal lathe and some tools if you want to get old school.
 
2021-11-27 7:54:53 PM  

slantsix: This entire premise that you can "recreate" works of art is ridiculous. There are just too many variables that to keep a 1:1 accuracy will literally never happen. This isn't the solution they think it is.


A lot of Roman and Greek works we have nowadays are reproductions that were done in antiquity.
 
2021-11-27 8:20:26 PM  

Slaxl: vudukungfu: That's not how genocide works

And this isn't a discussion about genocide...


Tell that to the indigenous planet wide
 
2021-11-27 8:26:03 PM  

AmbassadorBooze: slantsix: AmbassadorBooze: dittybopper: vudukungfu: That's not how genocide works

You're right.  Taking things from people is theft.  Genocide requires intentionally killing them.  So it literally is not how genocide works.

Wrong.  Apparently words don't have meanings, and genocide can be anything.  It is now "Genocide" to demand whole wrong cultures (like cultures with slavery) be mind wiped and reprogrammed to have the right ideas on slavery.

What happens when you rob a people of their culture? It's effectively genocide. We Canadians did this to indigenous people in the form of residential schools (where many children were also actually killed, on purpose or by neglect). So yeah, it's effectively the same.

What you are referring to is something like culturalcide.

Yes, I know, words no longer have meaning.


Guys the word is 'ethnicide' and it is still a war crime.
 
2021-11-27 8:30:57 PM  

IDisME: Some groups in the past have tried to delete history by destroying artifacts.  But it's theirs.  I'm on the fence.


History and artifacts don't belong to any nation or group. They're the common heritage of humanity. Like labor is the obligation the proletariat, artifact preservation is the obligation of whomever is able to do so.
 
2021-11-27 8:57:25 PM  

farkalt: IDisME: Some groups in the past have tried to delete history by destroying artifacts.  But it's theirs.  I'm on the fence.

History and artifacts don't belong to any nation or group. They're the common heritage of humanity. Like labor is the obligation the proletariat, artifact preservation is the obligation of whomever is able to do so.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-11-27 9:36:16 PM  
fortheloveof:

"It's alright we ripped up your societies, destroyed the local order, and took all your stuff because if we hadn't someone else would have and there might not even be this little bit we refuse to give back to you left." is not the good guy position you want to believe it is.

The Turks did that to Greece. They were in the process of breaking up the marbles to use as building material when Lord Elgin asked to buy them instead.

To the British Museum, the issue is that the recognised authority at the time agreed to let Elgin have them, to the Greeks the issue is that the Turks should never have been recognised as the authority and had no right to give them away.
 
2021-11-27 9:41:30 PM  

scanman61: Yes, those ungrateful wogs should be thanking the Crown for preserving their cultural heritage......in London.


Even in satire that's not an acceptable word to be using.
 
2021-11-27 10:19:54 PM  
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. The only valid excuse for not repatriating artifacts is if the nation of origin is in a state of war that would put the artifacts in jeopardy, in which case the museum should hold onto the artifacts for safe keeping until the nation is stable again, or if the government of that nation is a theocracy that wants the artifacts back to destroy them. Otherwise scan and replicate. Scholars wanting to study on the original artifact can make arrangements with the nation the artifacts belong to travel there to examine the original.

Also, human remains of indigenous peoples need to be returned to their nation or their nation's descendants if that nation is extinct. I'm an atheist and I don't believe in a soul and I don't believe the fate of the corpse matters to the deceased, but that's not other people's beliefs and just as I would not want to be forced to adhere to other's beliefs I don't believe others should be forced to adhere to mine. Ancestral remains are sacred to nearly all first nations and should be returned after they've been studied and catalogued so they can be re-interred in accordance with their traditions and beliefs. Just because I don't care if my corpse is displayed in a museum or thrown in a ditch after I'm dead (just make sure you strip it for any useful parts that could save or improve another person's life), doesn't give me the right to assume that is how everyone feels on the subject.
 
2021-11-27 10:45:14 PM  

Ghastly: Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. The only valid excuse for not repatriating artifacts is if the nation of origin is in a state of war that would put the artifacts in jeopardy, in which case the museum should hold onto the artifacts for safe keeping until the nation is stable again, or if the government of that nation is a theocracy that wants the artifacts back to destroy them. Otherwise scan and replicate. Scholars wanting to study on the original artifact can make arrangements with the nation the artifacts belong to travel there to examine the original.

Also, human remains of indigenous peoples need to be returned to their nation or their nation's descendants if that nation is extinct. I'm an atheist and I don't believe in a soul and I don't believe the fate of the corpse matters to the deceased, but that's not other people's beliefs and just as I would not want to be forced to adhere to other's beliefs I don't believe others should be forced to adhere to mine. Ancestral remains are sacred to nearly all first nations and should be returned after they've been studied and catalogued so they can be re-interred in accordance with their traditions and beliefs. Just because I don't care if my corpse is displayed in a museum or thrown in a ditch after I'm dead (just make sure you strip it for any useful parts that could save or improve another person's life), doesn't give me the right to assume that is how everyone feels on the subject.


Honestly, the United Kingdoms is way more stable than the countries asking for artifacts from the territory that they currently occupy.  What right does Modern Egypt have to ancient Egyptian artifacts or even Modern India for that matter?  Completely different people, completely different culture currently occupying the same geographical location.
 
2021-11-27 10:49:33 PM  
This thread is both dildoes and a war crime.
 
2021-11-27 11:06:26 PM  
Finders keepers. No takebacksies.
 
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