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(Automotive News)   Toyota teams up with other Japanese automakers to fight Elon's oligarchic takeover of the auto industry, protect Tokyo from Mothra attacks   (autonews.com) divider line
    More: Hero, Internal combustion engine, Toyota Motor Corp., Japanese companies, internal combustion engines, Automobile, Electric vehicle, joint press conference, Toyota  
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720 clicks; posted to Business » on 25 Nov 2021 at 11:35 PM (5 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



52 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


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hej
5 days ago  
Not sure if the headline or the tag is funner.  Tough call.
 
5 days ago  
Toyota in not any kind of a hero. They are just protecting their business because they are so far behind. The Earth be dammed. Also, look at their political contributions.
 
5 days ago  
Are we going to get some kind of Toyota/ Nissan/ Honda/ Mitsubishi combining mecha out of this?
 
5 days ago  
Was really hoping for good news rather than Toyota continuing to beat that dead horse.
 
5 days ago  
Perhaps Toyota should focus on making better, affordable EVs.  This planet already has enough smog.
 
5 days ago  

ArkPanda: Are we going to get some kind of Toyota/ Nissan/ Honda/ Mitsubishi combining mecha out of this?


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
5 days ago  
Asian company waiting for others to spend mad R&D money is nothing new. Reverse engineering on other peoples hard work and here come the me too's for their share of the pie. They're far from stupid.
 
5 days ago  
Japan can be shockingly innovative or deadly conservative. Toyota seems to have moved from one to the other. 20 years from now, ICE cars will be used holdovers. The writing is already on the wall.
 
5 days ago  
I really hope biofuels become commercially viable - there are just so many ways that liquid fuels are better than EVs. But I'm not holding my breath.
 
5 days ago  
This is a smart move on their part.
EV's have their place, but they aren't the be-all and end-all; which some folks think is the case.
Who better than the Japanese to design and build hyper efficient diesel and gas engines? They've been incrementally doing so for decades. Add in their commitment to developing hydrogen powered engines, and it sounds like a exceptionally positive step.
One deciding factor may have been China.
Japan is a small country, they need to import most of the raw materials required to manufacture EV batteries. China is the closest and largest producer of the raw materials, they also tend to be a tempestuous trading partner. Japan can't base its future infrastructure plans on reliable relations with an aggressive neighbor.

Looking forward to seeing some hydrogen powered motorcycles!
 
5 days ago  
I can only think of of one hydrogen station here in the Bay Area. It is mostly used by Toyota Mirai owners. After the 3 years of free hydrogen provided by Toyota, they try to dump their car as soon as possible.

Who wants to drive a car that only has access to two hydrogen fill-up stations in a ten to fifteen mile radius?

The only 2019 Toyota sedan you can actually buy right now in the Bay Area for under $20,000 is the Toyota Mirai.

This is just Toyota publicly announcing they are too far behind in the EV game and have nothing new to bring to the table.
 
4 days ago  

ArkPanda: Are we going to get some kind of Toyota/ Nissan/ Honda/ Mitsubishi combining mecha out of this?


Musks no match for their Gundam.
 
4 days ago  

adamatari: Japan can be shockingly innovative or deadly conservative. Toyota seems to have moved from one to the other. 20 years from now, ICE cars will be used holdovers. The writing is already on the wall.


Toyota has always been a conservative, "long game" company. They became successful by releasing unexciting but decent products, and then iteratively improving those products over the course of many generations. Contrast that to GM, whose M.O. is to release a sexy but terribly flawed product, scramble to fix most of the flaws over the course of the product cycle, and then discontinue it after one generation because it isn't making money any more (see: Pontiac Fiero, Cadillac Allante, Chevy Volt).

EVs are a game-changing technology. It's no surprise that a business that's built on gradual improvement of existing technologies is resisting adoption of the new game-changing tech.
 
4 days ago  
We already know how to make renewable, non-sequestered liquid fuels for ICE vehicles.
We will need them for certain specialized applications.
They will be expensive, and we won't be needing a lot of them.
Toyota cannot change this, and shouldn't be wasting effort trying.
 
4 days ago  

Spadababababababa Spadina Bus: adamatari: Japan can be shockingly innovative or deadly conservative. Toyota seems to have moved from one to the other. 20 years from now, ICE cars will be used holdovers. The writing is already on the wall.

Toyota has always been a conservative, "long game" company. They became successful by releasing unexciting but decent products, and then iteratively improving those products over the course of many generations. Contrast that to GM, whose M.O. is to release a sexy but terribly flawed product, scramble to fix most of the flaws over the course of the product cycle, and then discontinue it after one generation because it isn't making money any more (see: Pontiac Fiero, Cadillac Allante, Chevy Volt).

EVs are a game-changing technology. It's no surprise that a business that's built on gradual improvement of existing technologies is resisting adoption of the new game-changing tech.


LOL, wut?

The Cadillac Allanté was not a profitable vehicle and was a turd with a luxury badge.
 
4 days ago  
Uh here is where my patriotism/borderline nationalism come into play - I would much rather an American company sells us our cars and takes our money than a Japanese company.
 
4 days ago  
Toyota are assholes to be sure. I'm still shortlisting the BZ4X (or rather the Subaru Solterra, but it's essentially the same car) for my wife's next vehicle, though. If the rumors are true and it's just a BYD skateboard with some Japanese stuff on top, it's going to be a very, very good car.

Tesla Model Y
Nissan Ariya
Toyota BZ4X / Subaru Solterra

2022 is going to be a great year for electric cars. Even in here Japan where Toyota is trying to take a giant, steamy dump on progress.
 
4 days ago  

Redh8t: hydrogen powered engines


lol ew
 
4 days ago  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
4 days ago  
I like my Prius, but Toyota really dropped the ball moving to full-EV.
 
4 days ago  

sinko swimo: Asian company waiting for others to spend mad R&D money is nothing new. Reverse engineering on other peoples hard work and here come the me too's for their share of the pie. They're far from stupid.


Uh, you know that Toyota has been developing their electric and hybrid drivetrains through their LMP prototype racing programs? Right?

Volkswagen group (Audi and Porsche), Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, and Nissan have been developing their electric drivetrains through the Formula E series.

Tesla on the other hand, doesn't seem to be doing much development. Real car companies do development on new products through their racing programs. Fuel economy improvement comes through racing development. So does drivetrain improvement. Nothing is better at exposing flaws than racing.
 
4 days ago  

question_dj: Tesla on the other hand, doesn't seem to be doing much development.


lol k
 
4 days ago  

Tyrone Slothrop: I like my Prius, but Toyota really dropped the ball moving to full-EV.


Toyota fought tooth and nail against even plug in hybrids.  People were converting their Prii to plug in hybrids in their garages while Toyota said it wasn't possible/useful.
 
4 days ago  
Hero tag? Really?
 
4 days ago  
The five companies said they will [...] Explore the use of hydrogen engines in two-wheel and other vehicles

I can't be the only one thinking this is an incredibly dumb idea.
 
4 days ago  

adamatari: Japan can be shockingly innovative or deadly conservative. Toyota seems to have moved from one to the other. 20 years from now, ICE cars will be used holdovers. The writing is already on the wall.


20 years from now, my 21-year-old Solara will still be running

I'm only getting an EV because fxxk the oil companies
 
4 days ago  

ArkPanda: Are we going to get some kind of Toyota/ Nissan/ Honda/ Mitsubishi combining mecha out of this?


They'll try the lizard brained version first.  If that doesn't crush T, they'll escalate to the monkey brained version.

Fark user imageView Full Size


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
hej
4 days ago  

question_dj: sinko swimo: Tesla on the other hand, doesn't seem to be doing much development.


I'm seriously curious what constitutes "development" in your mind.
 
4 days ago  

hej: question_dj: sinko swimo: Tesla on the other hand, doesn't seem to be doing much development.

I'm seriously curious what constitutes "development" in your mind.


I'm guessing he's listening to the people who keep saying that Tesla cars are made  from mostly off-the-shelf hardware, which is true.   The value in Tesla isn't in the hardware, it's in the Software and the heaps of driving data that Tesla has collected from Tesla owners.
 
4 days ago  

Mad_Radhu: ArkPanda: Are we going to get some kind of Toyota/ Nissan/ Honda/ Mitsubishi combining mecha out of this?

[Fark user image 275x435]


He's hung like a Corolla
 
4 days ago  

ArkPanda: Are we going to get some kind of Toyota/ Nissan/ Honda/ Mitsubishi combining mecha out of this?


media.wired.comView Full Size
 
4 days ago  

TheGreatGazoo: Tyrone Slothrop: I like my Prius, but Toyota really dropped the ball moving to full-EV.

Toyota fought tooth and nail against even plug in hybrids.  People were converting their Prii to plug in hybrids in their garages while Toyota said it wasn't possible/useful.


Even now they make a pitifully small number of RAV4 Primes a year. Even pre-pandemic they were near impossible to get hold of without paying thousands over MSRP.
 
4 days ago  

Fissile: which is true


Nope. Ever seen a tear down of a Tesla? They're pretty wild
 
4 days ago  
 
4 days ago  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: Likwit: Fissile: which is true

Nope. Ever seen a tear down of a Tesla? They're pretty wild

Tesla Owners Claim Some of Their Model Y's Parts Look Like They're From Home Depot | Tech Times

Tesla Model Y Owners Find Cooling System Cobbled Together With Home Depot-Grade Fake Wood (thedrive.com)

[thedrive.com image 850x478]


Yeah, not their finest moment. But that heat pump system behind the wood is amazing
 
4 days ago  

Likwit: Chief Superintendent Lookout: Likwit: Fissile: which is true

Nope. Ever seen a tear down of a Tesla? They're pretty wild

Tesla Owners Claim Some of Their Model Y's Parts Look Like They're From Home Depot | Tech Times

Tesla Model Y Owners Find Cooling System Cobbled Together With Home Depot-Grade Fake Wood (thedrive.com)

[thedrive.com image 850x478]

Yeah, not their finest moment. But that heat pump system behind the wood is amazing


As an HVAC tech..  I read about this "innovative" heat pump when they released it and could only shake my head.

Congrats? You probably could have outsourced that one to Trane, Carrier or Lennox.
 
4 days ago  

Likwit: Toyota are assholes to be sure. I'm still shortlisting the BZ4X (or rather the Subaru Solterra, but it's essentially the same car) for my wife's next vehicle, though. If the rumors are true and it's just a BYD skateboard with some Japanese stuff on top, it's going to be a very, very good car.

Tesla Model Y
Nissan Ariya
Toyota BZ4X / Subaru Solterra

2022 is going to be a great year for electric cars. Even in here Japan where Toyota is trying to take a giant, steamy dump on progress.


Yes. I'm kinda waiting to see what Subaru brings to market. Don't want a second car payment. But we are splitting utilities at a house of 5 guys. I'll totally plug in a new car and split the difference with the rest 🤣
 
4 days ago  

Axeofjudgement: Likwit: Chief Superintendent Lookout: Likwit: Fissile: which is true

Nope. Ever seen a tear down of a Tesla? They're pretty wild

Tesla Owners Claim Some of Their Model Y's Parts Look Like They're From Home Depot | Tech Times

Tesla Model Y Owners Find Cooling System Cobbled Together With Home Depot-Grade Fake Wood (thedrive.com)

[thedrive.com image 850x478]

Yeah, not their finest moment. But that heat pump system behind the wood is amazing

As an HVAC tech..  I read about this "innovative" heat pump when they released it and could only shake my head.

Congrats? You probably could have outsourced that one to Trane, Carrier or Lennox.


Then you didn't read enough.
 
4 days ago  

Axeofjudgement: Yes. I'm kinda waiting to see what Subaru brings to market.


They're bringing the BZ4X to market with a higher suspension and rebadged as the Solterra. It's on my family's short list.
 
4 days ago  

Likwit: Axeofjudgement: Yes. I'm kinda waiting to see what Subaru brings to market.

They're bringing the BZ4X to market with a higher suspension and rebadged as the Solterra. It's on my family's short list.


I'm aware. Username checks out though?

But a roomier AWD I'd go for now that I'm not looking at "surprise 1-2k mile trip!"

And yes Elon figured out what a heatpump is. Nothing he did was new or innovative.

I used to build power packs with pretty much the same design for direct heat transfer heat exchangers between refrigerants and or a water loop.


Oh no. He had to put a reversal valve Into the system, we ain't relying on heat produced by the car.

That's not innovative. You're using the compressor as a heat source like... well... a heatpump.
 
4 days ago  

Axeofjudgement: You're using the compressor as a heat source


Nope
 
4 days ago  
images.oreillyauto.comView Full Size


Someone's eventually going to invent a fully functional Mr. Fusion. Might as well be by some boffins in Japan.
 
4 days ago  
Two things about these stupid farking EV threads (that I actually love, but they are absolutely chock full of stupidity) that make me giggle.

1) The amazing confidence with which people say completely incorrect things and not even think for two seconds that they should maybe double check. I get not being invested in a topic, but I'll never understand the desire to opine on said topic and not care that you got major details wrong.

2) The amount of distaste one claims to have for Elon Musk has an exponential relationship with how much they insert him into a conversation. It's almost like an elementary school crush.
 
4 days ago  

johnphantom: Uh here is where my patriotism/borderline nationalism come into play - I would much rather an American company sells us our cars and takes our money than a Japanese company.


I feel the same way, but dig deeper. It's complicated. Just because an auto maker has headquarters in U.S., doesn't mean that the vehicles they produce have a lot of domestic parts, or are assembled domestically. Foreign companies have a lot of assembly plants in the U.S. I also want to keep my money domestically, but you have to prioritize that by parts manufacturing, labor dollars, etc.

Model: Assembly location for cars sold in the U.S. (rank in the 2020 American-Made Index)
1. Tesla Model 3: Fremont, Calif. (4)
2. Ford Mustang: Flat Rock, Mich. (34)
3. Tesla Model Y: Fremont, Calif. (unranked)
4. Jeep Cherokee: Belvidere, Ill. (2)
5. Chevrolet Corvette: Bowling Green, Ky. (8)
6. Honda Ridgeline: Lincoln, Ala. (6)
7. Honda Odyssey: Lincoln, Ala. (5)
8. Honda Pilot: Lincoln, Ala. (13)
9. Honda Passport: Lincoln, Ala. (7)
10. Toyota Tundra: San Antonio (16)
11. Ford Expedition, Expedition Max: Louisville, Ky. (20)
12. Acura RDX: East Liberty, Ohio (14)
13. Acura TLX: Marysville, Ohio (25)
14. Chevrolet Colorado: Wentzville, Mo. (10)
15. GMC Canyon: Wentzville, Mo. (11)
16. Jeep Grand Cherokee: Detroit (26)
17. Honda Accord: Marysville, Ohio (15)
18. Toyota Avalon: Georgetown, Ky. (29)
19. Lexus ES: Georgetown, Ky.* (28)
20. Lincoln Navigator, Navigator L: Louisville, Ky. (54)
 
4 days ago  

Al Tsheimers: johnphantom: Uh here is where my patriotism/borderline nationalism come i

nto play - I would much rather an American company sells us our cars and takes our money than a Japanese company.

I feel the same way, but dig deeper. It's complicated. Just because an auto maker has headquarters in U.S., doesn't mean that the vehicles they produce have a lot of domestic parts, or are assembled domestically. Foreign companies have a lot of assembly plants in the U.S. I also want to keep my money domestically, but you have to prioritize that by parts manufacturing, labor dollars, etc.

Model: Assembly location for cars sold in the U.S. (rank in the 2020 American-Made Index)
1. Tesla Model 3: Fremont, Calif. (4)
2. Ford Mustang: Flat Rock, Mich. (34)
3. Tesla Model Y: Fremont, Calif. (unranked)
4. Jeep Cherokee: Belvidere, Ill. (2)
5. Chevrolet Corvette: Bowling Green, Ky. (8)
6. Honda Ridgeline: Lincoln, Ala. (6)
7. Honda Odyssey: Lincoln, Ala. (5)
8. Honda Pilot: Lincoln, Ala. (13)
9. Honda Passport: Lincoln, Ala. (7)
10. Toyota Tundra: San Antonio (16)
11. Ford Expedition, Expedition Max: Louisville, Ky. (20)
12. Acura RDX: East Liberty, Ohio (14)
13. Acura TLX: Marysville, Ohio (25)
14. Chevrolet Colorado: Wentzville, Mo. (10)
15. GMC Canyon: Wentzville, Mo. (11)
16. Jeep Grand Cherokee: Detroit (26)
17. Honda Accord: Marysville, Ohio (15)
18. Toyota Avalon: Georgetown, Ky. (29)
19. Lexus ES: Georgetown, Ky.* (28)
20. Lincoln Navigator, Navigator L: Louisville, Ky. (54)


O have actually done work at the tundra plant in San Antonio.

Be careful the robots will take you out.


Also my impreza was born in Indiana.

I always joke my little Subaru is probably more American than all my coworkers American cars.
 
4 days ago  

Likwit: Two things about these stupid farking EV threads (that I actually love, but they are absolutely chock full of stupidity) that make me giggle.

1) The amazing confidence with which people say completely incorrect things and not even think for two seconds that they should maybe double check. I get not being invested in a topic, but I'll never understand the desire to opine on said topic and not care that you got major details wrong.

2) The amount of distaste one claims to have for Elon Musk has an exponential relationship with how much they insert him into a conversation. It's almost like an elementary school crush.


No offense, but you can be a bit of a sandpaper Tuesday...
 
4 days ago  

Likwit: Two things about these stupid farking EV threads (that I actually love, but they are absolutely chock full of stupidity) that make me giggle.

1) The amazing confidence with which people say completely incorrect things and not even think for two seconds that they should maybe double check. I get not being invested in a topic, but I'll never understand the desire to opine on said topic and not care that you got major details wrong.

2) The amount of distaste one claims to have for Elon Musk has an exponential relationship with how much they insert him into a conversation. It's almost like an elementary school crush.


Number 1 is universal. On the internet and in person. Everyone MUST have an opinion about everything. When they say I'm entitled to have an opinion, I counter by asking them to give their opinion on the best way to do brain surgery. No, you are not entitled to an opinion on something you know nothing about. And most people know almost nothing about 99 44/100% of the world.
 
4 days ago  

Redh8t: Likwit: Two things about these stupid farking EV threads (that I actually love, but they are absolutely chock full of stupidity) that make me giggle.

1) The amazing confidence with which people say completely incorrect things and not even think for two seconds that they should maybe double check. I get not being invested in a topic, but I'll never understand the desire to opine on said topic and not care that you got major details wrong.

2) The amount of distaste one claims to have for Elon Musk has an exponential relationship with how much they insert him into a conversation. It's almost like an elementary school crush.

No offense, but you can be a bit of a sandpaper Tuesday...


That's pretty cool, bro
 
4 days ago  

Al Tsheimers: johnphantom: Uh here is where my patriotism/borderline nationalism come into play - I would much rather an American company sells us our cars and takes our money than a Japanese company.

I feel the same way, but dig deeper. It's complicated. Just because an auto maker has headquarters in U.S., doesn't mean that the vehicles they produce have a lot of domestic parts, or are assembled domestically. Foreign companies have a lot of assembly plants in the U.S. I also want to keep my money domestically, but you have to prioritize that by parts manufacturing, labor dollars, etc.

Model: Assembly location for cars sold in the U.S. (rank in the 2020 American-Made Index)
1. Tesla Model 3: Fremont, Calif. (4)
2. Ford Mustang: Flat Rock, Mich. (34)
3. Tesla Model Y: Fremont, Calif. (unranked)
4. Jeep Cherokee: Belvidere, Ill. (2)
5. Chevrolet Corvette: Bowling Green, Ky. (8)
6. Honda Ridgeline: Lincoln, Ala. (6)
7. Honda Odyssey: Lincoln, Ala. (5)
8. Honda Pilot: Lincoln, Ala. (13)
9. Honda Passport: Lincoln, Ala. (7)
10. Toyota Tundra: San Antonio (16)
11. Ford Expedition, Expedition Max: Louisville, Ky. (20)
12. Acura RDX: East Liberty, Ohio (14)
13. Acura TLX: Marysville, Ohio (25)
14. Chevrolet Colorado: Wentzville, Mo. (10)
15. GMC Canyon: Wentzville, Mo. (11)
16. Jeep Grand Cherokee: Detroit (26)
17. Honda Accord: Marysville, Ohio (15)
18. Toyota Avalon: Georgetown, Ky. (29)
19. Lexus ES: Georgetown, Ky.* (28)
20. Lincoln Navigator, Navigator L: Louisville, Ky. (54)


And it's even more complicated. I have no problem with parts made in Canada/Mexico or an assemble plant being there. Our trade balance with them is OK. Buying from places with a fair trade balance also balances out the jobs here vs there. I do not like buying anything from places with a huge negative trade balance.
 
4 days ago  

Likwit: Redh8t: Likwit: Two things about these stupid farking EV threads (that I actually love, but they are absolutely chock full of stupidity) that make me giggle.

1) The amazing confidence with which people say completely incorrect things and not even think for two seconds that they should maybe double check. I get not being invested in a topic, but I'll never understand the desire to opine on said topic and not care that you got major details wrong.

2) The amount of distaste one claims to have for Elon Musk has an exponential relationship with how much they insert him into a conversation. It's almost like an elementary school crush.

No offense, but you can be a bit of a sandpaper Tuesday...

That's pretty cool, bro


You'll warm up to it. ;)
 
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