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(NPR)   Web 3.0 will "grab the power back from corporations" by tracking everything you do using blockchain   (npr.org) divider line
    More: Unlikely, Web 2.0, Twitter, Social network service, Social network, Internet, Social media, History of the Internet, World Wide Web  
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1025 clicks; posted to STEM » on 21 Nov 2021 at 12:45 PM (26 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



45 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-11-21 9:27:00 AM  
So we will need to have high powered GPUs so we can mine for porn in the blockchain?
 
2021-11-21 9:27:42 AM  
I've been reading about the power usage problems NFT blockchains have.  How would this not make it worse?
 
2021-11-21 10:11:09 AM  
imgs.xkcd.comView Full Size
 
2021-11-21 10:16:47 AM  
The tokens can be used to vote on decisions, and even accrue real value.

So, um.  Ok, this reminds me of when you deconstruct anarchism according to certain realities that will exist... you end up with...

"well, now you have a government."
 
2021-11-21 11:04:42 AM  
A ball and chain did you say?

gilatrout: I've been reading about the power usage problems NFT blockchains have.  How would this not make it worse?


This is about money, not dooming us all to a slow and tortuous death on a dying planet.
 
2021-11-21 12:07:21 PM  

gilatrout: I've been reading about the power usage problems NFT blockchains have.  How would this not make it worse?


NFTs don't have anything to do with power usage directly. That's a core feature of the underlying blockchain, specifically the use of a "proof of work" mining algorithm. And that mining goes on regardless of what people are doing on the blockchain. When you see reports like "every NFT purchase burns X acres of rainforest", people are calculating that based on average transaction volumes on the chain vs. the total amount of mining power consumption. It's not a direct 1:1 relationship.

Ethereum has a "coming soon" feature called proof-of-stake which (if implemented) would vastly reduce the amount of wasted energy. Another way to solve the problem would be to cut off the flow of real-world money into the ecosystem, because that's what ultimately keeps the miners in business. But that's not going to happen until the billionaires and hedge fund guys invent a new hustle. Those trillions of "money printer goes brrr...." fiat dollars have to go somewhere.
 
2021-11-21 12:49:05 PM  
So peer to peer. Like a torrent ? Yeah , that's just lovely
 
2021-11-21 12:52:03 PM  
Blockchain proponents are the equivalent of quack chiropractors. Claiming blockchain can totally be used for everything and solve every problem under the sun.
 
2021-11-21 12:56:01 PM  
reallifecomics.comView Full Size
 
2021-11-21 1:00:20 PM  

Ambitwistor: [reallifecomics.com image 560x643]


I don't get why people expect to understand blockchain. You don't understand banks, you don't understand finance, you don't understand technology - and you're perfectly content not to. Why would you expect to understand this?
 
2021-11-21 1:02:12 PM  

trialpha: Blockchain proponents are the equivalent of quack chiropractors. Claiming blockchain can totally be used for everything and solve every problem under the sun.


Very true. If bitcoin hadn't inexplicably skyrocketed in value, no one anywhere would give one farking damn about blockchain.

It's a solution in search of a problem, wrapped in "I don't care how stupid it is, as long as I win the tech lottery."
 
2021-11-21 1:05:20 PM  
farking idiocy
 
2021-11-21 1:11:11 PM  

ImpendingCynic: trialpha: Blockchain proponents are the equivalent of quack chiropractors. Claiming blockchain can totally be used for everything and solve every problem under the sun.

Very true. If bitcoin hadn't inexplicably skyrocketed in value, no one anywhere would give one farking damn about blockchain.

It's a solution in search of a problem, wrapped in "I don't care how stupid it is, as long as I win the tech lottery."


That's how the tech sector has been for a very long time now.  The watchword there, the thing everyone wants to do, is be "disruptive".  But there are things that might not need to be "disrupted", really.  Sometimes just refinement and incremental improvement is good enough,.
 
2021-11-21 1:12:13 PM  

Ivo Shandor: Those trillions of "money printer goes brrr...." fiat dollars have to go somewhere.


But the money printer part is the advantage of fiat dollars as a currency. The fact that everyone treats blockchain "currencies" as investments highlights the underlying problem with the blockchain: it's not really viable as a currency because you can't effectively manage the supply at a macroeconomic scale. We want the pool of currency to grow (because that pool of currency is representative of the labor value within the economy, which we also want to see growing). You absolutely don't want them decoupled.
 
2021-11-21 1:16:52 PM  

t3knomanser: We want the pool of currency to grow (because that pool of currency is representative of the labor value within the economy, which we also want to see growing).


That's not how it works any more. The game changed in late 2008. Or do you think that the labor value has actually done this?
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-11-21 1:18:39 PM  

Unda: Ambitwistor: [reallifecomics.com image 560x643]

I don't get why people expect to understand blockchain. You don't understand banks, you don't understand finance, you don't understand technology - and you're perfectly content not to. Why would you expect to understand this?


So that you won't get ripped off by banks counting on how your failure to understand finance enables them to use technology to steal from you?
 
2021-11-21 1:19:59 PM  

alienated: So peer to peer. Like a torrent ? Yeah , that's just lovely


I guess we need to start setting up local diaspora nodes, then.
 
2021-11-21 1:25:26 PM  
Internet on the blockchain makes no sense.

Sure, no one "owns" the data, right up until you want to do shiat like private messaging or non-universally-public posts. Boom, platform-lock-in.

Not to mention that you still need a GUI anyway. Someone has to make it.

Also: you can only ever do what people agree the data format should be like.

Migrating all data to an optimised format will be next to impossible. Adding data? Have fun when other people don't follow and your functionality breaks down 90% of the time. Not to mention what happens when someone posts something from another "site" that doesn't follow your data format. Now the token is "updated" (as in: a new one is made that says the old one is no longer valid since blockchain shiat is supposed to be immutable), which means that you not only need to filter ALL tokens relating to that post for the newest one, you also need to filter for ones you made, because otherwise functions break down. And then your platform is running on old data, which people will hate.

There is a reason boring old databases with a central authority who reads, writes, and manages it are being used.
 
2021-11-21 1:32:31 PM  
news.artnet.comView Full Size

/someday all memes will be bored yacht-club apes
 
2021-11-21 1:35:48 PM  
A search for Farkcoin returns this image (from FARKCOIN.COM):

Fark user imageView Full Size


Looks like Fark has been preparing for this since 2013.
 
2021-11-21 1:55:19 PM  
In this new era, navigating the web no longer means logging onto the likes of Facebook, Google or Twitter.

It didn't mean that back in web1.0, either.
 
2021-11-21 2:08:33 PM  
th.bing.comView Full Size


"Stop trying to make 'Blockchain' happen.  It's not going to happen."
 
2021-11-21 2:11:16 PM  

Unda: I don't get why people expect to understand blockchain. You don't understand banks, you don't understand finance, you don't understand technology - and you're perfectly content not to. Why would you expect to understand this?


The way I understand it: It's just a new type of relational database management system, only instead of records with field names describing data in a table (id, name, date, etc.), data is instead arranged as a series of key=>value pairs in a "block", with one or more blocks being in a relationship to other blocks, connecting a chain. So basically db records as tables. Oh, and all of this is encrypted so it just looks like a long string of alphanumeric characters. And it can't be deleted and it's decentralized and distributed collectively.

Blockchain has a lot of interesting applications. Currency is not one of them.
 
2021-11-21 2:15:15 PM  
No, Just no.
There are a few things that the block chain might make better.
There are a WORLD of things that it wouldn't.
 
2021-11-21 2:34:09 PM  
Pyramid Schemes such as Bernie Madoff's consist of a confidence man who promises great investment returns from an unknown  strategy. He attracts investors by paying those returns, but they are really just from the capital that is being invested. The scheme collapses when he runs out of suckers who cannot be bribed or fooled, is investigated by authorities, and indicted for fraud.

The confidence man at the center varies, and the optimization and personality can change, but the basic program is the same and could easily be performed by a computer running a spreadsheet.

Bitcoin uses some fairly solid distributed architecture, which it uses to run this spreadsheet. It provides no one to indict and nothing to declare fraud about. There's nothing being sold but shares in this hypothetical virtual confidence scheme.

The bubble will collapse very suddenly when it runs out of suckers. The initial participants get more than their outlay, the later suckers will lose everything and be left with virtual currency, and the entire thing will be looked back on as a craze among fool man-children with a fondness for pretension.

Unless it doesn't fail, and changes everything, and the US Government is forced to say that you can pay your taxes in Bitcoin. But it won't.
 
2021-11-21 2:38:55 PM  

Ishkur: The way I understand it: It's just a new type of relational database management system, only instead of records with field names describing data in a table (id, name, date, etc.), data is instead arranged as a series of key=>value pairs in a "block", with one or more blocks being in a relationship to other blocks, connecting a chain. So basically db records as tables. Oh, and all of this is encrypted so it just looks like a long string of alphanumeric characters.


Not really. It's basically the transaction log of a database, retained forever.

Key aspects of a blockchain:
- There are numbered blocks of data starting from a well-known "0" block
- The highest numbered block represents the current state of the system
- Each block includes a digital signature of the previous block
- There is some mechanism regulating the creation of a new block

The actual "database" is somewhat decoupled from the blockchain. Bitcoin doesn't include any central table of who owns what, only records of individual value transfers between accounts. Your own wallet software will add this up and display your balance, but it doesn't know the balance of any other users in the system. Ethereum does have an explicit "state" DB which can be queried to find anyone's current balance. This state is not part of the blockchain, but can be reconstructed from it by replaying every past transaction which has been logged into that chain.
 
2021-11-21 2:42:53 PM  

Ishkur: Unda: I don't get why people expect to understand blockchain. You don't understand banks, you don't understand finance, you don't understand technology - and you're perfectly content not to. Why would you expect to understand this?

The way I understand it: It's just a new type of relational database management system, only instead of records with field names describing data in a table (id, name, date, etc.), data is instead arranged as a series of key=>value pairs in a "block", with one or more blocks being in a relationship to other blocks, connecting a chain. So basically db records as tables. Oh, and all of this is encrypted so it just looks like a long string of alphanumeric characters. And it can't be deleted and it's decentralized and distributed collectively.

Blockchain has a lot of interesting applications. Currency is not one of them.


I haven't used it very much, but it looked like nothing more a dump for primary keys in progressive data silos.
 
2021-11-21 3:01:11 PM  
blockchain is not crypto currency, nor is it bitcoin, its a farking perpetual ledger.
 
2021-11-21 3:02:31 PM  

Ivo Shandor: The actual "database" is somewhat decoupled from the blockchain. Bitcoin doesn't include any central table of who owns what, only records of individual value transfers between accounts. Your own wallet software will add this up and display your balance, but it doesn't know the balance of any other users in the system. Ethereum does have an explicit "state" DB which can be queried to find anyone's current balance. This state is not part of the blockchain, but can be reconstructed from it by replaying every past transaction which has been logged into that chain.


Given that bitcoin's blockchain is a complete record of every single transaction ever, wouldn't it also be able to know the balance of any wallet the same as Ethereum?
 
2021-11-21 3:21:22 PM  

trialpha: Ivo Shandor: The actual "database" is somewhat decoupled from the blockchain. Bitcoin doesn't include any central table of who owns what, only records of individual value transfers between accounts. Your own wallet software will add this up and display your balance, but it doesn't know the balance of any other users in the system. Ethereum does have an explicit "state" DB which can be queried to find anyone's current balance. This state is not part of the blockchain, but can be reconstructed from it by replaying every past transaction which has been logged into that chain.

Given that bitcoin's blockchain is a complete record of every single transaction ever, wouldn't it also be able to know the balance of any wallet the same as Ethereum?


You can, and there are "block explorer" websites which do that, but it's not part of the main protocol the way it is with Ethereum.

Bitcoin also has multiple wallet addresses for each user. Your own wallet software knows which ones are yours and can show you a grand total balance, but that's not visible to the block explorer sites. Those can only resolve balances to the individual wallet-address level.
 
2021-11-21 3:48:35 PM  

Ivo Shandor: t3knomanser: We want the pool of currency to grow (because that pool of currency is representative of the labor value within the economy, which we also want to see growing).

That's not how it works any more. The game changed in late 2008. Or do you think that the labor value has actually done this?
[Fark user image 850x395]


ok, economics isn't my thing.
the 'pool of currency', just the physical coins and bills? or the 'monetary base' as in that chart, with all the banked and generally liquid dollars around, is supposedly tied to labor value? or isn't anymore? hasn't labor always been just a piece of what makes for value, alongside natural resources, technological advances, etc? but value is more than just what's liquid in the economy, so i don't get the connection at all.
 
2021-11-21 4:12:05 PM  

Ivo Shandor: Ishkur: The way I understand it: It's just a new type of relational database management system, only instead of records with field names describing data in a table (id, name, date, etc.), data is instead arranged as a series of key=>value pairs in a "block", with one or more blocks being in a relationship to other blocks, connecting a chain. So basically db records as tables. Oh, and all of this is encrypted so it just looks like a long string of alphanumeric characters.

Not really. It's basically the transaction log of a database, retained forever.

Key aspects of a blockchain:
- There are numbered blocks of data starting from a well-known "0" block
- The highest numbered block represents the current state of the system
- Each block includes a digital signature of the previous block
- There is some mechanism regulating the creation of a new block

The actual "database" is somewhat decoupled from the blockchain. Bitcoin doesn't include any central table of who owns what, only records of individual value transfers between accounts. Your own wallet software will add this up and display your balance, but it doesn't know the balance of any other users in the system. Ethereum does have an explicit "state" DB which can be queried to find anyone's current balance. This state is not part of the blockchain, but can be reconstructed from it by replaying every past transaction which has been logged into that chain.


But can I generate JSON files from it?
 
2021-11-21 4:29:43 PM  

SoundOfOneHandWanking: blockchain is not crypto currency, nor is it bitcoin, its a farking perpetual ledger.


It maintains that ledger in an environment of non-trust. That's the useful thing about it.

If there are 20 one star generals surrounding a city trying to coordinate an attack, blockchain may be a useful thing. But if there are 19 one star generals and 1 two star general, then there's a central trusted authority, so there's no discussion, no conversation, just orders passing from a central authority where you only need secure communication from point to point.

Blockchain offers nothing for monetary transactions. Most of the maintainers of the ledger don't give a crap about my transaction with you, but they have to maintain it to continue to participate. If I'm moving money from my account to yours, the only entities that care, are me, you, my bank, and your bank. Blockchain requires every bank in the world to record and maintain that transaction.

If you have no clear central authority, a limited number of participants, a limited number of transactions, and a requirement that they all have consistent information in a non-trusted environment, then blockchain may be useful.

DNS kind of meets those requirements, but the number of participants and transactions are too large.
 
2021-11-21 4:31:06 PM  

Ishkur: But can I generate JSON files from it?


Everything can be a JSON file if you're brave enough.
 
2021-11-21 5:05:28 PM  

Ishkur: The way I understand it: It's just a new type of relational database management system, only instead of records with field names describing data in a table (id, name, date, etc.),


It is not a relational database. Not by a long shot.

You can add some data in the metadata of a blockchain transaction. You can use that to disperse data between people. This data can then be read by everyone (where they get the "no longer bound to sites", since everyone can read from the blockchain and make their own site based on the available data), and never altered so it is always known what someone said. If you think being a stupid 13 year old on the internet in the age of facebook and twitter is bad, try never being able to delete posts you made while a stupid 13 year old. It is also why there is never-to-be-deleted revenge porn and child porn in Bitcoin.

data is instead arranged as a series of key=>value pairs in a "block",

The database will function more like mongodb and if they are smart they'll put the data in in a style JSON format since space will be at a premium.


with one or more blocks being in a relationship to other blocks, connecting a chain. So basically db records as tables.


No, the chain is the transactions of the blocks from one ledger to another. With every transaction essentially being a "comment" or a "like" based on what metadata they add to the transaction.

Oh, and all of this is encrypted so it just looks like a long string of alphanumeric characters. And it can't be deleted and it's decentralized and distributed collectively.

It won't be encrypted because that would defeat the "you'll be free from the major platforms" bit. If only one platform can read it in plain text, then you'll still be bound to a platform.

/It is all a very, very, very stupid idea
 
2021-11-21 5:53:28 PM  
So these folks who don't like being blocked from society want to have a version of the web where absolutely nothing can ever get deleted.  These are the same people complaining of the cancel culture because they can't spout their hateful rhetoric.  These are the same people that stand up their own platforms for freeze peach that censor users and views that disagree with them.  And with the ability to have anonymity but also the capability to prove your identity.

I can't see any of that backfiring. /s

Lots of d*ck pics, porn, cat videos, hate speech, state secrets revealed, and copyrighted content.  Sounds like something that makes Faceblock look like gossip at a quilting bee.

I can hardly wait.
 
2021-11-21 6:03:20 PM  
So obviously Fark needs to switch to blockchain. (*quickly ducks head*)
But, Web 4.0, or the "Drew Web" (a.k.a. 'CurtisNet') will someday not only be the new Internet standard, FarkBucks will be the only true, stable worldwide currency. They'll be backed by the full faith and credit of Fark.
 
2021-11-21 6:12:40 PM  

Ivo Shandor: Ishkur: But can I generate JSON files from it?

Everything can be a JSON file if you're brave enough.


{PAIGE: "NO!"}
 
2021-11-21 6:17:29 PM  

Ivo Shandor: t3knomanser: We want the pool of currency to grow (because that pool of currency is representative of the labor value within the economy, which we also want to see growing).

That's not how it works any more. The game changed in late 2008. Or do you think that the labor value has actually done this?
[Fark user image 850x395]


What he's talking about and what that graph shows has little to nothing to do with each other.  About the only relationship is both involve currency in some capacity.

In 2008 the republicans decided to kill the country because their funders farked up and nearly killed the economy, and those funders are going to burn down the world instead of take an ounce of pain to fix what they screwed up.  We've been unable to apply fiscal policy and the Fed has been on it's own to use monetary policy.  That graph is the result of that decision, and the Fed not deciding to make it more painful to use monetary policy than getting the republicans to behave like reasonable people again.
 
2021-11-21 7:15:23 PM  

Ivo Shandor: Ishkur: The way I understand it: It's just a new type of relational database management system, only instead of records with field names describing data in a table (id, name, date, etc.), data is instead arranged as a series of key=>value pairs in a "block", with one or more blocks being in a relationship to other blocks, connecting a chain. So basically db records as tables. Oh, and all of this is encrypted so it just looks like a long string of alphanumeric characters.
Not really. It's basically the transaction log of a database, retained forever.
Key aspects of a blockchain:
- There are numbered blocks of data starting from a well-known "0" block
- The highest numbered block represents the current state of the system
- Each block includes a digital signature of the previous block
- There is some mechanism regulating the creation of a new block
The actual "database" is somewhat decoupled from the blockchain. Bitcoin doesn't include any central table of who owns what, only records of individual value transfers between accounts. Your own wallet software will add this up and display your balance, but it doesn't know the balance of any other users in the system. Ethereum does have an explicit "state" DB which can be queried to find anyone's current balance. This state is not part of the blockchain, but can be reconstructed from it by replaying every past transaction which has been logged into that chain.


Fark user imageView Full Size


If people are making money, then somebody's life support system is getting trashed.
No matter what the fark you egomaniacs want to call it.
 
2021-11-22 12:25:19 AM  

MadHatter500: Ivo Shandor: t3knomanser: We want the pool of currency to grow (because that pool of currency is representative of the labor value within the economy, which we also want to see growing).

That's not how it works any more. The game changed in late 2008. Or do you think that the labor value has actually done this?
[Fark user image 850x395]

What he's talking about and what that graph shows has little to nothing to do with each other.  About the only relationship is both involve currency in some capacity.

In 2008 the republicans decided to kill the country because their funders farked up and nearly killed the economy, and those funders are going to burn down the world instead of take an ounce of pain to fix what they screwed up.  We've been unable to apply fiscal policy and the Fed has been on it's own to use monetary policy.  That graph is the result of that decision, and the Fed not deciding to make it more painful to use monetary policy than getting the republicans to behave like reasonable people again.


2008. When Obama won and the Dems had a supermajority.

Is this also when the GOP got you pregnant, against your wishes?
 
2021-11-22 7:31:57 AM  

Ivo Shandor: That's not how it works any more.


I'm not saying we're doing a good job managing the economy, but at least we can. There's no ability to control supply on blockchain currencies- there can't be. You have to rely on market forces or having an algorithm tuned to be slightly inflationary. But the problem with a slightly inflationary algorithm is that people are adopting blockchains as speculative assets- it doesn't really offer users an advantage in terms of actual utility as a currency (to the contrary, it's significantly less useful than dollars).

At the end of the day, I don't think you can separate the blockchain from the gold bugs.
 
2021-11-22 8:46:16 AM  

Ivo Shandor: gilatrout: I've been reading about the power usage problems NFT blockchains have.  How would this not make it worse?

NFTs don't have anything to do with power usage directly. That's a core feature of the underlying blockchain, specifically the use of a "proof of work" mining algorithm. And that mining goes on regardless of what people are doing on the blockchain. When you see reports like "every NFT purchase burns X acres of rainforest", people are calculating that based on average transaction volumes on the chain vs. the total amount of mining power consumption. It's not a direct 1:1 relationship.

Ethereum has a "coming soon" feature called proof-of-stake which (if implemented) would vastly reduce the amount of wasted energy. Another way to solve the problem would be to cut off the flow of real-world money into the ecosystem, because that's what ultimately keeps the miners in business. But that's not going to happen until the billionaires and hedge fund guys invent a new hustle. Those trillions of "money printer goes brrr...." fiat dollars have to go somewhere.


Right with you until the last sentence.
 
2021-11-22 9:06:11 AM  

Shryke: 2008. When Obama won and the Dems had a supermajority.

Is this also when the GOP got you pregnant, against your wishes?


Obama's time machine strikes again!

Obama's presidency started January 20, 2009. Well, after the republicans had farked everything up.
 
2021-11-22 10:53:42 AM  

covfefe: Unless it doesn't fail, and changes everything, and the US Government is forced to say that you can pay your taxes in Bitcoin. But it won't.


If enough of us are wrong, we're right.  We just have to achieve critical ignorance to make it work.
 
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