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(Upworthy)   Wil Wheaton tells a longtime "Buffy" fan about the perfect way to separate problematic artists, like Joss Whedon, from their art   (upworthy.com) divider line
    More: Wheaton, Rape, Sexual abuse, Stupidity, Intelligence, Mirror Memoirs, indigenous people, abuse survivor, number of stupid individuals  
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4646 clicks; posted to Fandom » and Entertainment » on 27 Oct 2021 at 12:20 PM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-10-27 11:17:48 AM  
Two things from his response:

He grew up to be a reprehensible bigot, and for years I couldn't listen to one of the most important bands in my life anymore.

I wonder who the band is.

Joss sure turned out to be garbage. Because of who my friends are, I know stuff that isn't in the public, and it's pretty horrible. He's just not a good person, and apparently never was a good person.

Uh, now I wonder what the secret stuff is.

/ subby
 
2021-10-27 11:21:07 AM  
The article ended just as it was about to start.
 
2021-10-27 11:21:48 AM  

bostonguy: Two things from his response:

He grew up to be a reprehensible bigot, and for years I couldn't listen to one of the most important bands in my life anymore.

I wonder who the band is.

Joss sure turned out to be garbage. Because of who my friends are, I know stuff that isn't in the public, and it's pretty horrible. He's just not a good person, and apparently never was a good person.

Uh, now I wonder what the secret stuff is.

/ subby


My guess is The Smiths
 
2021-10-27 11:24:47 AM  
I'm a firm believer that we can't just dismiss art due to the artist being a farkhead in their personal life.  We'd have to close out every museum in existence if we couldn't make the separation.

That being said, I will never be able to listen to Lostprophets every again.
 
2021-10-27 11:26:43 AM  
Wil Wheaton Johnson is RIGHT.

Art, if it touches someone, belongs to them at that point. It's grown beyond the creative stage into a participatory element moving through time. It has changed from a noun into a verb.

But I'll still never listen to Metallica.
 
2021-10-27 11:26:47 AM  
wil is a good dude.

Very well stated.

Obligatory:

ou.eduView Full Size
 
2021-10-27 11:30:07 AM  

Eightballjacket: My guess is The Smiths


That's a good guess.

Personally, I believe in separating artist and art. But I can never listen to The Smiths because Morrissey's voice makes me want to stab myself in my ears to stop the pain.
 
2021-10-27 11:35:11 AM  
Shame he doesn't come around here no more.
 
2021-10-27 11:44:41 AM  

Eightballjacket: bostonguy: Two things from his response:

He grew up to be a reprehensible bigot, and for years I couldn't listen to one of the most important bands in my life anymore.

I wonder who the band is.

Joss sure turned out to be garbage. Because of who my friends are, I know stuff that isn't in the public, and it's pretty horrible. He's just not a good person, and apparently never was a good person.

Uh, now I wonder what the secret stuff is.

/ subby

My guess is The Smiths


Yeah, was going to say Morrissey for that one.
 
2021-10-27 12:23:17 PM  
For most people, the only thing you can do is not pay for anything that profits the artist.

So... Avoid their work or pirate it.
 
2021-10-27 12:27:07 PM  
"art doesn't belong to the person who created it, if it ever did. It belongs to the person who found something meaningful in the art"

nuff said
 
2021-10-27 12:27:18 PM  

bostonguy: I wonder who the band is.


Starland Vocal Band.

His hatred for them is legendary.
 
2021-10-27 12:27:37 PM  
Lewis Carroll was pretty much a pedo creep. I like his stuff tho....it helps that he's dead and isn't getting royalties, like JK Rowling.
 
2021-10-27 12:29:31 PM  
I nominate Wil Weathon to be the next Pope of Chilitown.
 
2021-10-27 12:31:01 PM  
Hurray, someone who gets it, and it's Wil.  I was a big Buffy/Angel fan in my younger years, largely because Tara was such a relatable character that I didn't often see back then (socially awkward but wasn't stuffed in lockers and people still liked, plus like me she has a stuttering issue), and when all the stuff about Joss came out, I started re-watching Angel because it was great that Charisma and crew could come up with something so meaningful despite Joss.  I re-watched it for the cast, particularly Charisma, and not Joss.  Not watching it at all when it is meaningful is a disservice.
 
2021-10-27 12:32:00 PM  
this is the path yall.
We cannot carry on to EVOLVE, if we try to forget and reject what we have from us, in that process.

the art we make, the medical advancements we learn, the technological we develop.
It would be supremely irrational to throw all that in the bin, and refuse to allow us now and future people to experience it/use it/have it for themselves and their own judgement.

If the art was good in a moment, then it was. And it is wrong and disrespectful, to yourself in that moment, to now try and toss what was important, in the bin, becasue of associations it had no control over.


That we have life saving medical option X is real, and how we got it beceoms a mute point, the only question you face is, do you deny to others what some already enjoyed the benefit of?


Go on tell the child's parents' that to let their child die and reject a medical option we do have, because of how we learned it, it is the only moral path to take now to simply no t get to have it any more.


And i say art is no less important to a healthy and functioning civilization, than medical care.
So here we are, my first child hood hero and inspiration of what to be when i grow up, is Bill Cosby.
I cannot explain the soul crushing it is to now know of him what i do.
but even knowing this, while i cannot personally feel the same enjoyment hearing his original stand up.
I would not deny to anyone else the opportunity to enjoy it. i woudl only wish that we could be done allowing him to carry on profiteering on it, and just 'we" now won that, no one earns money off it any more.

It is part of why medical care in the US so immorally disgusting to  me.
that we have some medical advancement sand knowledge, is just well  do have those.
But that the knowledeg was obtained in such immorally terrible was in some cases, and that we allow anyone to privetly profiteer off that knowledge, is what is immorally disgusting to me.
This should be data yo cannot profit on, only that 'we" the civilization of now, can use what is already here to protect us and keep us healthy.
 
2021-10-27 12:32:31 PM  
Whatever.

If you look deep enough everyone is going to offend your sensibility in some way. I'm sure if you knew all of the dark details about Mr. Rogers you would find something that offends you - requiring you to go all Cancel Culture on his show. We all need to chill the fark out.
 
2021-10-27 12:33:18 PM  

bostonguy: I wonder who the band is.


I mean...

i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2021-10-27 12:34:06 PM  

Gubbo: Shame he doesn't come around here no more.


Farkers shouldn't have treated him like sh*t.
 
2021-10-27 12:34:10 PM  

bostonguy: I wonder who the band is.


If it turns out to be Weird Al, keep your goddamn mouth shut and never tell me.
 
2021-10-27 12:34:30 PM  
Oh, I know who he's talking about.  Kid Rock.
 
2021-10-27 12:34:50 PM  

skyotter: Gubbo: Shame he doesn't come around here no more.

Farkers shouldn't have treated him like sh*t.


Farkers treat everyone like shiat, including themselves.
 
2021-10-27 12:38:55 PM  
Just had an insight. Nicholas Brendon can sometimes be a jerk (due to mental health and drug issues). Does that mean that I should no longer like Xander as a character in "Buffy"? Of course not.

Xander is not about Nicholas Brendon. Xander is whatever the viewers, like me, see in the character. I can relate to Xander a lot (except for being a demon magnet, though some ex-girlfriends might indeed count).

/ yes, I know Xander had creepy moments, but I hope you see my larger point
 
2021-10-27 12:41:52 PM  

Stephen_Falken: Wil Wheaton Johnson is RIGHT.

Art, if it touches someone, belongs to them at that point. It's grown beyond the creative stage into a participatory element moving through time. It has changed from a noun into a verb.

But I'll still never listen to Metallica.


No he's not, he's justifying his actions. You can't separate the art from the artist when supporting the art is supporting the artist.

Someone up thread said we have to because otherwise we'd have to close every museum. I don't see Michelangelo getting a whole lot of money for viewings of David, but Joss Whedon is getting those residuals. The 'art' is their current, active business.

Look, if you want to get your entertainment no matter what, fine, it's up to you. If you don't believe that the actions of someone owning the production should reflect on the production, fine, that's up to you. Realize though that's what is going on and own it. Wil is justifying to look like he cares while not following through.
 
2021-10-27 12:42:26 PM  

NewportBarGuy: wil is a good dude.

Very well stated.

Obligatory:

[ou.edu image 379x270]


Wil Wheaton's arm in that photo was used in the classic "Dynamite Monkey" photoshop.
 
2021-10-27 12:42:54 PM  

skyotter: Gubbo: Shame he doesn't come around here no more.

Farkers shouldn't have treated him like sh*t.


We weren't the only ones. And I don't blame him for leaving most social media.

When your every comment is met with "shut up Wesley" it's probably gonna get old very quickly.
 
2021-10-27 12:43:18 PM  

Eightballjacket: bostonguy: Two things from his response:

He grew up to be a reprehensible bigot, and for years I couldn't listen to one of the most important bands in my life anymore.

I wonder who the band is.

Joss sure turned out to be garbage. Because of who my friends are, I know stuff that isn't in the public, and it's pretty horrible. He's just not a good person, and apparently never was a good person.

Uh, now I wonder what the secret stuff is.

/ subby

My guess is The Smiths


Well at least we know somebody who listen to Morrissey when he was younger.

I have to say, I wholeheartedly agree with Wil Wheaton's take on this. In the end it ends up being a personal decision, weighing the actions of the artist against their art. I will still watch episodes of the Dave Chappelle Show once in a while for example but will not watch any of his recent stuff because it has become apparent he never grew out of the childish mentality that he started with.

Mel Gibson is probably at the top of many people's lists of most reprehensible entertainers. I will still watch Gallipoli, Lethal Weapon, Mad Max for example but anyting in the more modern era is simply off-limits again because it has become apparent that the artist never grew out of their childish beliefs.

I can separate the xenophobia and racism of HP Lovecraft from the world that he created. This one might be easier simply because so much time has passed. If anything I feel a bit of pity and sympathy for Lovecraft since that xenophobia was partially self inflicted as he started to work his way through it but passed away before he could truly overcome the Demons of his youth.

Joss Whedon is an abusive ass hole and deserves no more work from Hollywood ever again. I'm sure he will go and cry into his Scrooge McDuck Money Vault. If I liked the Buffy TV series I would probably still enjoy it simply because a project like that isn't the result of one person but of many.
 
2021-10-27 12:43:59 PM  

Stephen_Falken: Wil Wheaton Johnson is RIGHT.

Art, if it touches someone, belongs to them at that point.


Oh,sure, but when a person touches someone we get threads like this.
 
2021-10-27 12:46:53 PM  

GardenWeasel: skyotter: Gubbo: Shame he doesn't come around here no more.

Farkers shouldn't have treated him like sh*t.

Farkers treat everyone like shiat, including themselves.


I think it is more the case that this website has become much more combative and close-minded than it was back in the time when Will was an active member. There was always that trolling childish behavior but if the overall community is more creative upbeat and high energy that can be looks past. The trolls now are motivated by hatred and not simply a childish need to get under someone's skin for amusement.
 
2021-10-27 12:46:57 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-27 12:48:09 PM  
Well said, Mr HWheaton.
 
2021-10-27 12:49:09 PM  

SMB2811: Stephen_Falken: Wil Wheaton Johnson is RIGHT.

Art, if it touches someone, belongs to them at that point. It's grown beyond the creative stage into a participatory element moving through time. It has changed from a noun into a verb.

But I'll still never listen to Metallica.

No he's not, he's justifying his actions. You can't separate the art from the artist when supporting the art is supporting the artist.

Someone up thread said we have to because otherwise we'd have to close every museum. I don't see Michelangelo getting a whole lot of money for viewings of David, but Joss Whedon is getting those residuals. The 'art' is their current, active business.

Look, if you want to get your entertainment no matter what, fine, it's up to you. If you don't believe that the actions of someone owning the production should reflect on the production, fine, that's up to you. Realize though that's what is going on and own it. Wil is justifying to look like he cares while not following through.


Then you are punishing the actors who had to endure him and depriving them of payment for up to 7-8 years of their adolescent lives. They still get paid when someone consumes that art.
 
2021-10-27 12:50:37 PM  
I am so grateful that the word "problematic" is something I find vaguely irritating for its overuse (by folks who clearly have different problems than mine) and not something that causes me the least bit of hand-wringing when it gets associated with the people who produce/have produced art I like.
 
2021-10-27 12:51:03 PM  

rummonkey: The trolls now are motivated by hatred and not simply a childish need to get under someone's skin for amusement.


The Ignore button is our friend.
 
2021-10-27 12:52:57 PM  

rummonkey: GardenWeasel: skyotter: Gubbo: Shame he doesn't come around here no more.

Farkers shouldn't have treated him like sh*t.

Farkers treat everyone like shiat, including themselves.

I think it is more the case that this website has become much more combative and close-minded than it was back in the time when Will was an active member. There was always that trolling childish behavior but if the overall community is more creative upbeat and high energy that can be looks past. The trolls now are motivated by hatred and not simply a childish need to get under someone's skin for amusement.


That's what happens when you remove boobies from a web site.
 
2021-10-27 12:53:59 PM  

madgonad: Whatever.

If you look deep enough everyone is going to offend your sensibility in some way. I'm sure if you knew all of the dark details about Mr. Rogers you would find something that offends you - requiring you to go all Cancel Culture on his show. We all need to chill the fark out.


Assuming everyone is terrible makes it real easy for actual terrible people to skate through life unaffected.

Because people who talk about "cancel culture" can't stand consequences for bad behavior.
 
2021-10-27 12:55:42 PM  

rummonkey: GardenWeasel: skyotter: Gubbo: Shame he doesn't come around here no more.

Farkers shouldn't have treated him like sh*t.

Farkers treat everyone like shiat, including themselves.

I think it is more the case that this website has become much more combative and close-minded than it was back in the time when Will was an active member. There was always that trolling childish behavior but if the overall community is more creative upbeat and high energy that can be looks past. The trolls now are motivated by hatred and not simply a childish need to get under someone's skin for amusement.


I disagree, and I'm in trouble quite often for saying things. But I don't think the site is more combative. I think it just reflects the polarized world we live in.

When it is impossible to defend the actions of the right wing, you aren't left with much conversation options. So you don't get them making cromulent points, they instead just spew hatred and lies (as is really the only thing that the right wing knows how to do).

/this isn't an insult, or a criticism of anyone, or intended as anti-mod commentary
 
2021-10-27 12:56:25 PM  

bostonguy: rummonkey: The trolls now are motivated by hatred and not simply a childish need to get under someone's skin for amusement.

The Ignore button is our friend.


Oh believe me, I use it judiciously. Anyone who might go on the ignore list gets a probation. Under one particular farkie color and if it turns out my initial assessment of them was correct they are gone. I just wish more people would do it because the mobile site still shows ignored posts when they are replied to.
 
2021-10-27 12:57:56 PM  

skyotter: Gubbo: Shame he doesn't come around here no more.

Farkers shouldn't have treated him like sh*t.


They did? Back in the day he was practically revered. Maybe things changed during my hiatus.
 
2021-10-27 12:58:48 PM  

LL316: Assuming everyone is terrible makes it real easy for actual terrible people to skate through life unaffected.

Because people who talk about "cancel culture" can't stand consequences for bad behavior.


But where is the line drawn?

Take HP Lovecraft. We all hate him now because he was pretty racist, even for a racist time in America. I would note that you can dismantle anyone this way. Everyone has mistreated people in their lives. Become famous and those people can make some money (or get attention - which leads to money) telling the world how much you suck.
 
2021-10-27 12:58:55 PM  

Sliding Carp: bostonguy: I wonder who the band is.

If it turns out to be Weird Al, keep your goddamn mouth shut and never tell me.


It won't be weird Al. I'm convinced Al is the only perfect human being that ever existed.
 
2021-10-27 1:00:24 PM  

log_jammin: It won't be weird Al. I'm convinced Al is the only perfect human being that ever existed.


He spent a lot of time objectifying women at Hefner's mansion.
 
2021-10-27 1:01:27 PM  

madgonad: log_jammin: It won't be weird Al. I'm convinced Al is the only perfect human being that ever existed.

He spent a lot of time objectifying women at Hefner's mansion.


Ok. Sure.
 
2021-10-27 1:04:27 PM  
All your heroes are monsters in real life.
There my be a handful of exceptions, but I have doubts.
 
2021-10-27 1:06:41 PM  

log_jammin: madgonad: log_jammin: It won't be weird Al. I'm convinced Al is the only perfect human being that ever existed.

He spent a lot of time objectifying women at Hefner's mansion.

Ok. Sure.


He apparently was a regular there. His name was used many times when discussing how broad the appeal was for Hefner's parties. Nothing ever came up about him misbehaving. He was just known to be part of Hef's party crew.
 
2021-10-27 1:06:59 PM  

GardenWeasel: SMB2811: Stephen_Falken: Wil Wheaton Johnson is RIGHT.

Art, if it touches someone, belongs to them at that point. It's grown beyond the creative stage into a participatory element moving through time. It has changed from a noun into a verb.

But I'll still never listen to Metallica.

No he's not, he's justifying his actions. You can't separate the art from the artist when supporting the art is supporting the artist.

Someone up thread said we have to because otherwise we'd have to close every museum. I don't see Michelangelo getting a whole lot of money for viewings of David, but Joss Whedon is getting those residuals. The 'art' is their current, active business.

Look, if you want to get your entertainment no matter what, fine, it's up to you. If you don't believe that the actions of someone owning the production should reflect on the production, fine, that's up to you. Realize though that's what is going on and own it. Wil is justifying to look like he cares while not following through.

Then you are punishing the actors who had to endure him and depriving them of payment for up to 7-8 years of their adolescent lives. They still get paid when someone consumes that art.


^^^^
This.

Very little contemporary art is solo work where one individual is wholly responsible for the end product and receives all the proceeds.  Almost all contemporary art (movies/tv/music etc) is a team sport where there are many people considered 'above the line' talent who share in the proceeds.  So, yes, Joss Whedon profits, but so do many other artists and contributors well beyond him from the proceeds of that art.
 
2021-10-27 1:07:04 PM  

UberSmyth: NewportBarGuy: wil is a good dude.

Very well stated.

Obligatory:

[ou.edu image 379x270]

Wil Wheaton's arm in that photo was used in the classic "Dynamite Monkey" photoshop.


You sonofabiatch... I NEVER would have put that together. Thanks for that bit of trivia.

th.bing.comView Full Size
 
2021-10-27 1:07:53 PM  

madgonad: log_jammin: It won't be weird Al. I'm convinced Al is the only perfect human being that ever existed.

He spent a lot of time objectifying women at Hefner's mansion.


Hmm, I have enjoyed myself at strip clubs. To whom do I report myself to for cancellation?
 
2021-10-27 1:08:35 PM  

madgonad: LL316: Assuming everyone is terrible makes it real easy for actual terrible people to skate through life unaffected.

Because people who talk about "cancel culture" can't stand consequences for bad behavior.

But where is the line drawn?

Take HP Lovecraft. We all hate him now because he was pretty racist, even for a racist time in America. I would note that you can dismantle anyone this way. Everyone has mistreated people in their lives. Become famous and those people can make some money (or get attention - which leads to money) telling the world how much you suck.


Of course most of us have said or done things we regret.  But the only people at risk of being cancelled (which almost never happens) are those people who are unwilling to learn and improve themselves.  Most "cancelled" people just don't want to apologize for being shiatty.
 
2021-10-27 1:10:51 PM  

GardenWeasel: Then you are punishing the actors who had to endure him and depriving them of payment for up to 7-8 years of their adolescent lives. They still get paid when someone consumes that art.



The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one.
 
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