Skip to content
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(USA Today)   Good news from GM: they're installing 40,000 EV chargers at dealerships nationwide. GM farking it up as usual: they aren't fast chargers, so they are essentially useless   (usatoday.com) divider line
    More: Amusing, Internal combustion engine, Automobile, Hertz-Tesla deal, Electric vehicle, electric cars, electric-vehicle, Vehicle, Tesla cars  
•       •       •

577 clicks; posted to Business » on 26 Oct 2021 at 5:38 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



39 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-10-26 4:43:31 PM  
I see the US EV makers still won't put a charger on the roof.
A couple panels and you could get some free juice.

But no.
 
2021-10-26 5:46:07 PM  
How do you sell electric cars if you don't have a charger?
 
2021-10-26 5:51:58 PM  
I'm driving my Model Y to Oak Park, IL tomorrow.  Two charging stops totaling 45 minutes are required for the trip down.  I'm guessing GM is doing this as a half hearted attempt to capture some EV market share back from Tesla but I don't see it working.
 
2021-10-26 6:00:19 PM  
Of course they are not fast chargers...have to give the salesmen enough time to try and convince you to trade in your rust bucket on a new ride.
 
2021-10-26 6:09:29 PM  
They want to be able to say they're doing something for customers without actually having to do it.  This makes it inconvenient enough that no one will actually take them up on it.
 
2021-10-26 6:25:10 PM  
FTH:they aren't fast chargers, so they are essentially useless

Most PHEVs don't have a fast charge connector.  The one Tesla uses is proprietary.

They decided to go with a Level 2 J1772 connector which has the widest compatibility among existing (and likely future) EVs and PHEVs.

tldr; They went with wider compatibility over charge speed.
 
2021-10-26 6:26:54 PM  
Owners of all-electric cars, including non-GM brands, will be able to access the chargers, which will provide the same type of electricity as an outlet that powers a clothes dryer.

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO! You don't put a square peg in a round hole, ya' dingus! Why are you trying to put dryer-shaped electrons in a car-shaped receptacle? That's just asking for a rollover.
 
2021-10-26 6:30:38 PM  
"Owners of all-electric cars, including non-GM brands, will be able to access the chargers, which will provide the same type of electricity as an outlet that powers a clothes dryer."

Which means it's a 240v outlet and Level 2 chargers that will charge as fast as GM's vehicles will allow.  (around 2 hours for a full charge)  Same thing with other major car manufacturers that offer Level 1 or Level 2 charging capabilities.  They're not Teslas and can charge 15 minutes at a supercharger to get an additional 200miles of range.  Besides Tesla, I think the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i are the only other vehicles that can use Level 3 chargers. (480v)

Somebody that knows more, correct me please if I'm mistaken. (and I probably am)
 
2021-10-26 6:38:14 PM  

HeadbangerSmurf: I'm driving my Model Y to Oak Park, IL tomorrow.  Two charging stops totaling 45 minutes are required for the trip down.  I'm guessing GM is doing this as a half hearted attempt to capture some EV market share back from Tesla but I don't see it working.


Model Y?  Is that the "SUV" that is lucky to crawl its way out of a sandbox?

While I'm joking with you, calling that thing an SUV is an affront to actual sports utility vehicles.
 
2021-10-26 6:48:05 PM  

BunkyBrewman: "Owners of all-electric cars, including non-GM brands, will be able to access the chargers, which will provide the same type of electricity as an outlet that powers a clothes dryer."

Which means it's a 240v outlet and Level 2 chargers that will charge as fast as GM's vehicles will allow.  (around 2 hours for a full charge)  Same thing with other major car manufacturers that offer Level 1 or Level 2 charging capabilities.  They're not Teslas and can charge 15 minutes at a supercharger to get an additional 200miles of range.  Besides Tesla, I think the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i are the only other vehicles that can use Level 3 chargers. (480v)

Somebody that knows more, correct me please if I'm mistaken. (and I probably am)


Nope. Same electricity as a dryer. I'm sure pumping 220 A/C into a battery with no transformer and capacitor/ballast is what the article writer meant.

It's gonna be an explosive charge.
 
2021-10-26 6:50:01 PM  
It's not for public benefit. It's for pre sale charging, and use by the service department when you bring in the vehicle for its five mandatory recalls and warranty services that replace the grift on oil changes and overpriced cabin air filters.
 
2021-10-26 6:53:33 PM  

BunkyBrewman: Which means it's a 240v outlet and Level 2 chargers that will charge as fast as GM's vehicles will allow.  (around 2 hours for a full charge)  Same thing with other major car manufacturers that offer Level 1 or Level 2 charging capabilities.  They're not Teslas and can charge 15 minutes at a supercharger to get an additional 200miles of range.  Besides Tesla, I think the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i are the only other vehicles that can use Level 3 chargers. (480v)

Somebody that knows more, correct me please if I'm mistaken. (and I probably am)


Level 3 isn't (necessarily) 480V.  It's high-voltage DC.  Which could be closer to 1000V and 125A depending on what the car and charger can negotiate.  Chevy, Ford, Hyundai and others all have models that will DC fast charge (CCS1 standard plug).  It's an option on some models (some Chevy Bolts can, some only do level 2).

That said, supporting CCS1/DC Fast is a whole lot more involved in site location.  Your average parking garage or strip mall can support a 7 kW load or two.  No problem. A 25 kW load? A 50?  Like a Tesla Supercharger station, you're talking about getting a three-phase drop just for the chargers alone.  The poco might need to upsize the distribution wires coming to you even.  Plus you need space for the large AC->DC inverter (big metal box that needs active cooling).  Totally different ball game.
 
2021-10-26 6:57:39 PM  

AppleOptionEsc: BunkyBrewman: "Owners of all-electric cars, including non-GM brands, will be able to access the chargers, which will provide the same type of electricity as an outlet that powers a clothes dryer."

Which means it's a 240v outlet and Level 2 chargers that will charge as fast as GM's vehicles will allow.  (around 2 hours for a full charge)  Same thing with other major car manufacturers that offer Level 1 or Level 2 charging capabilities.  They're not Teslas and can charge 15 minutes at a supercharger to get an additional 200miles of range.  Besides Tesla, I think the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i are the only other vehicles that can use Level 3 chargers. (480v)

Somebody that knows more, correct me please if I'm mistaken. (and I probably am)

Nope. Same electricity as a dryer. I'm sure pumping 220 A/C into a battery with no transformer and capacitor/ballast is what the article writer meant.

It's gonna be an explosive charge.


The dryer uses the 240v plug, I was agreeing that it's the same electricity and Level 2.  But it should will charge a typical EV in a few hours instead of overnight.
 
2021-10-26 7:04:02 PM  

vudukungfu: I see the US EV makers still won't put a charger on the roof.
A couple panels and you could get some free juice.

But no.


Maybe about 5 miles of range if parked in direct sunlight. Kind of cool but not all great.

Some very high end cars have had solar powered fans to keep the cabin at ambient temperature even when parked in sunlight. If they do start adding solar panels to the roofs hopefully they can at least bring back that feature.
 
2021-10-26 7:08:12 PM  
I'm pretty impressed that the new EV Hummer will be able to only charge 10 minutes to add an additional 100 miles of range.
 
2021-10-26 7:10:16 PM  

chitownmike: How do you sell electric cars if you don't have a charger?


They do.
 
2021-10-26 7:13:03 PM  

BunkyBrewman: AppleOptionEsc: BunkyBrewman: "Owners of all-electric cars, including non-GM brands, will be able to access the chargers, which will provide the same type of electricity as an outlet that powers a clothes dryer."

Which means it's a 240v outlet and Level 2 chargers that will charge as fast as GM's vehicles will allow.  (around 2 hours for a full charge)  Same thing with other major car manufacturers that offer Level 1 or Level 2 charging capabilities.  They're not Teslas and can charge 15 minutes at a supercharger to get an additional 200miles of range.  Besides Tesla, I think the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i are the only other vehicles that can use Level 3 chargers. (480v)

Somebody that knows more, correct me please if I'm mistaken. (and I probably am)

Nope. Same electricity as a dryer. I'm sure pumping 220 A/C into a battery with no transformer and capacitor/ballast is what the article writer meant.

It's gonna be an explosive charge.

The dryer uses the 240v plug, I was agreeing that it's the same electricity and Level 2.  But it should will charge a typical EV in a few hours instead of overnight.


Depends on the ev. The new trucks (like an f150 lightning) will have 100+ kwh packs. A standard level 2 charger at 240v and 40 amps it  would take a good 10-12 hours to fully charge one. Still more than adequate to have at home or to keep vehicles charged on a dealers lot but won't do much good if you need a quick charge on the road.

Also very good for a phev. I actually recently installed a grizzl-e (got it in camo as it was cheaper) charger and it takes less than an hour to charge the phev.
 
2021-10-26 7:29:40 PM  

BunkyBrewman: HeadbangerSmurf: I'm driving my Model Y to Oak Park, IL tomorrow.  Two charging stops totaling 45 minutes are required for the trip down.  I'm guessing GM is doing this as a half hearted attempt to capture some EV market share back from Tesla but I don't see it working.

Model Y?  Is that the "SUV" that is lucky to crawl its way out of a sandbox?

While I'm joking with you, calling that thing an SUV is an affront to actual sports utility vehicles.


Agreed, but it has more trunk space than my X5 did.
 
2021-10-26 8:44:43 PM  

akya: FTH:they aren't fast chargers, so they are essentially useless

Most PHEVs don't have a fast charge connector.  The one Tesla uses is proprietary.

They decided to go with a Level 2 J1772 connector which has the widest compatibility among existing (and likely future) EVs and PHEVs.

tldr; They went with wider compatibility over charge speed.


GM's chargers are apparently the best non-Tesla charger on the market

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.caran​ddriver.com/news/amp38059759/gm-ultium​-charging-stations-expansion/
 
2021-10-26 8:47:13 PM  

BunkyBrewman: "Owners of all-electric cars, including non-GM brands, will be able to access the chargers, which will provide the same type of electricity as an outlet that powers a clothes dryer."

Which means it's a 240v outlet and Level 2 chargers that will charge as fast as GM's vehicles will allow.  (around 2 hours for a full charge)  Same thing with other major car manufacturers that offer Level 1 or Level 2 charging capabilities.  They're not Teslas and can charge 15 minutes at a supercharger to get an additional 200miles of range.  Besides Tesla, I think the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i are the only other vehicles that can use Level 3 chargers. (480v)

Somebody that knows more, correct me please if I'm mistaken. (and I probably am)


The Hyundai Ioniq 5 apparently can charge from 10% to 80% in 18 minutes.
 
2021-10-26 8:58:21 PM  

chitownmike: How do you sell electric cars if you don't have a charger?


They're not Apple, they provide chargers.
 
2021-10-26 9:04:57 PM  
Sounds good to me. You're taking your car in to get new tires put on, let it top up a bit at the charger and you go off to work for the day in the courtesy shuttle. You come back and voila charged car.

Or if the dealership is beside a map and you're going shopping you park there and get some juice while you get your food at the food court.

Heck a smart dealership might even have the chargers installed at a corner of a lot where they set up a coffee shop or restaurant.

As they can rely on things like Oil changes less this will help them find ways to diversify their business if they take advantage of it.
 
2021-10-26 9:20:43 PM  

BunkyBrewman: I'm pretty impressed that the new EV Hummer will be able to only charge 10 minutes to add an additional 100 miles of range.


OMG it's real. Who TF is the target audience for that abomination?
 
2021-10-26 9:43:23 PM  

chitownmike: How do you sell electric cars if you don't have a charger?


GM required dealerships selling Bolts to have a charger. But the charger didn't have to be available to the public, so often it's inside and you can't use it.

There are Chevy dealers that said "Nah" and just don't sell the Bolt.
 
2021-10-26 9:44:53 PM  

quo vadimus: BunkyBrewman: I'm pretty impressed that the new EV Hummer will be able to only charge 10 minutes to add an additional 100 miles of range.

OMG it's real. Who TF is the target audience for that abomination?


The same audience that wants a tesla truck.
 
2021-10-26 9:57:23 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-26 10:23:58 PM  

akya: FTH:they aren't fast chargers, so they are essentially useless

Most PHEVs don't have a fast charge connector.  The one Tesla uses is proprietary.

They decided to go with a Level 2 J1772 connector which has the widest compatibility among existing (and likely future) EVs and PHEVs.

tldr; They went with wider compatibility over charge speed.


Well and the Tesla fast chargers at 480 volt. These are 240. I imagine they did that to cut down on the amount of wiring you have to pay for. A car dealer probably has 240 running somewhere. 480? Not so much.
 
hej
2021-10-27 12:14:03 AM  
Subby, you ever consider that holding somebody hostage at a dealer for 8 hours is a feature, not a bug?
 
hej
2021-10-27 12:15:08 AM  

chitownmike: How do you sell electric cars if you don't have a charger?


Going to assume it was the "for public use" part that subby had an issue with.
 
hej
2021-10-27 12:17:47 AM  

BunkyBrewman: HeadbangerSmurf:

While I'm joking with you, calling that thing an SUV is an affront to actual sports utility vehicles.


No more so that the other 95% of SUVs.
 
2021-10-27 1:14:17 AM  

vudukungfu: I see the US EV makers still won't put a charger on the roof.
A couple panels and you could get some free juice.

But no.


People who say this are bad at math.
 
2021-10-27 1:16:00 AM  

akya: FTH:they aren't fast chargers, so they are essentially useless

Most PHEVs don't have a fast charge connector.  The one Tesla uses is proprietary.

They decided to go with a Level 2 J1772 connector which has the widest compatibility among existing (and likely future) EVs and PHEVs.

tldr; They went with wider compatibility over charge speed.


No, this is purely for the press. A useless gesture. If they wanted to go for compatibility, they'd do CCS. Even a PHEV isn't going to get an appreciable amount of range in the time you'd want to spend at a Chevy dealership. Mall, supermarket, movie theater... absolutely. Here? No.
 
2021-10-27 3:38:50 AM  
This was bound to happen.

We need to go back to where all this started. I think it was, "Free charging for life!" Way back when this whole EV "ambition cycle" first started, it was someone's vision that there would be chargers everywhere that someone could use to charge vehicles. People criticized the network, but Texla built it out and made it proprietary. People criticized the car range, so Texla put in bigger batteries and tweaked them and the chargers. So what we have to day is an ecosystem that is entirely divorced from other systems, with various incompatibilities and built in difficulties.

Apple did this. It distinguished itself from the IBM clones, claimed better performance, and started charging more. It got people to accept its system, its pricing, and its whole business model. It eventually got higher margins because it was able to prevent compatibility, and eventually even backward compatibility.

So what do you do today if you want an EV? What is your choice? Well, someone said upthread that you pretty much HAVE TO HAVE supercharging because the batteries are so big. You need the capacity to get the range, and you need the high charging rates to serve that capacity with any convenience at all.

So you pay the bucks to put a transformer on every street corner, pass that cost to users. Get proprietary software and apps to manage payments and charging rates. Charge high rates to have someone put one in their garage. Then you are hooked in. With that sunk cost, you will just continue to buy big battery EVs.

Suckers. Once you buy in, you can't get out without a lot of inconvenience. And you have allowed legislation mandating it. You don't have a dealer to complain to. You take their updates or you get bricked. And you can watch electricity rates go up without any way to avoid them. You won't even to be able to blame the oil companies.
 
2021-10-27 4:09:38 AM  
Being indisposed, I missed this thread, but I want to share just how EVs have "passed me by" and how that happened.

So I have solar. I have mentioned that many times. It is all paid for and I don't get a good FIT anymore. I have come to think of what I generate as "free" because I can't use it all, and wish I could. But the panels on my house are what I WANT TO USE to charge my car. I am not excited about paying a bunch of money for more hardware to charge a bigger battery faster when I have the right number of panels for the right size car I need. And my utility uses coal anyway, so there is that.

My Mitsubishi PHEV can use "level whatever" charging that lets me charge 10 kWh in about 30 minutes. I do believe that is 200 V charging. I never use it. I use the lowest level of charging, 100 V charging, which lets me charge my car in about 2.5 hours. I can usually tell what the weather is going to be for the next couple of hours, so I just plug into sunshine. I am a regular Ed Begley  Jr.  It is great. Plenty. Perfect. And in fact, it draws about 3 kW from my home system, with its solar panels generating about 3 to 5 kW on a normal to sunny day. A perfect match.

I can meet my needs using no grid power. But that means that if I had a bigger battery or a sexier charger, it would want to suck faster than my solar system can blow. So yes. The rest of the world sucks too hard. Big battery EVs suck too much. If I got one, I would have to use GRID electricity to charge it because my panels would not cut it. And grid electricity is getting to be FOUR TIMES the FIT they pay me and THREE TIMES the off peak rate that I would pay to charge at night.

So what is the problem? Well. I don't have one. Except that what used to be regular everyday charging  will eventually disappear. Everyone will need super duper charging for their super duper batteries so they can drive plaid. EVs will get slapped with a GRID TAX whether they have big or small batteries. The PHEVs will be regulated out of existence and a Leaf will be the very smallest of battery cars available. It has a battery roughly three or four times the capacity of mine. Companies will stop producing them because they won't be as profitable as the expensive devices.

This is what the dead end looks like.

Expensive devices made of expensive materials using proprietary controls. Dedicated hardware that is NECESSARY to use your device conveniently. Special taxes because of infrastructure burdens. No dealerships as go-betweens or service providers. Competition regulated out of existence. Pop the hood and void your warranty, and probably your resale rights. Safety will be what your corporate masters say it is.

And any true believing green curmudgeon like me who wants to charge an EV using solar power will have to leave a 100 kWh battery car plugged in for 30 hours of sunshine, or about five days.

And for a brief moment, a lot of shareholder value will be created.
 
2021-10-27 5:16:52 AM  

2fardownthread: Being indisposed, I missed this thread, but I want to share just how EVs have "passed me by" and how that happened.

So I have solar. I have mentioned that many times. It is all paid for and I don't get a good FIT anymore. I have come to think of what I generate as "free" because I can't use it all, and wish I could. But the panels on my house are what I WANT TO USE to charge my car. I am not excited about paying a bunch of money for more hardware to charge a bigger battery faster when I have the right number of panels for the right size car I need. And my utility uses coal anyway, so there is that.

My Mitsubishi PHEV can use "level whatever" charging that lets me charge 10 kWh in about 30 minutes. I do believe that is 200 V charging. I never use it. I use the lowest level of charging, 100 V charging, which lets me charge my car in about 2.5 hours. I can usually tell what the weather is going to be for the next couple of hours, so I just plug into sunshine. I am a regular Ed Begley  Jr.  It is great. Plenty. Perfect. And in fact, it draws about 3 kW from my home system, with its solar panels generating about 3 to 5 kW on a normal to sunny day. A perfect match.

I can meet my needs using no grid power. But that means that if I had a bigger battery or a sexier charger, it would want to suck faster than my solar system can bl...


I'm gonna stop you right there, silly. Battery size means you can accept more charge, but it isn't necessary. It's just a nice bonus feature. Any EV will have an on-board charger can accept slow charging as low as 1000W. Maybe lower, I'm not sure. And because modern EVs are more efficient than your heavy, complex, gas guzzling SUV with a battery taped to the bottom, you'd actually be getting more miles out of your solar panels.

I've tried to explain this to you dozens of times, but the battery being "full" means nothing. Efficiency is king. That's why Tesla is wiping the floor with the European competition and why Toyota has resorted to blocking them from building charging stations here in Japan.

And as for your super-duper-not-fake concern about the coal your utility uses? Change utilities. Switch to a green tariff. Japan has allowed that for several years now. There are dozens of companies to choose from, and it's only a few yen more per kWh. In some cases, your bill will go down. Technically you're still using coal, but you'll be offsetting someone else on coal or gas elsewhere. If you dig into the fine print, it usually tells you where and how the electricity is "traded." You claim to be totally fluent in the language, so figure the shiat out.
 
2021-10-27 5:30:44 AM  

2fardownthread: So what do you do today if you want an EV? What is your choice? Well, someone said upthread that you pretty much HAVE TO HAVE supercharging because the batteries are so big. You need the capacity to get the range, and you need the high charging rates to serve that capacity with any convenience at all.


I can't imagine the mindset of someone who so gleefully spews disinformation. It's so very strange. What do you get out of it?
 
2021-10-27 7:02:46 AM  

vudukungfu: I see the US EV makers still won't put a charger on the roof.
A couple panels and you could get some free juice.

But no.


Brought this up before

My Prius has the solar option, the only thing it will run is the fan to keep it from getting as nasty inside when you can park it on a sunny day

It's not gonna do much for the traction battery
 
2021-10-27 7:05:34 AM  

Likwit: 2fardownthread: So what do you do today if you want an EV? What is your choice? Well, someone said upthread that you pretty much HAVE TO HAVE supercharging because the batteries are so big. You need the capacity to get the range, and you need the high charging rates to serve that capacity with any convenience at all.

I can't imagine the mindset of someone who so gleefully spews disinformation. It's so very strange. What do you get out of it?


He's a broken record, and the part that keeps repeating is mostly incorrect. My favorite lie today is the idea that an EV with enough range to go two hours on one charge will never be adequately charged without its own dedicated nuclear power plant.
 
2021-10-27 1:09:41 PM  
Just sayin. 5 miles walking or 5 miles drivin.
you pick
 
Displayed 39 of 39 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking




On Twitter


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.