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(KOB4)   It looks like a Brandon Lee happened in Alec Baldwin's latest film   (kob.com) divider line
    More: Sad, second victim, Urgent care, SANTA FE, Thursday afternoon, Iron, Type theory, set of the movie, 42-year-old woman  
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3847 clicks; posted to Main » and Entertainment » on 21 Oct 2021 at 11:30 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-10-21 10:24:49 PM  
I probably have more questions than the police
 
2021-10-21 10:25:02 PM  
How does this happen in this day and age? You can literally fill the end of a barrel with weld and if you need a closeup, CGI it. Why is there anything close to live ammunition on a movie set? What the everloving fark?

Baldwin, for as much of an asshole as he has been over his whole life, must feel awful. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who knows how to treat guns.

But from a different article:

Deadline previously heard from sources that a principal castmember cocked a gun during a rehearsal, unaware that there were live rounds in it, hitting two people, a man and a woman. The man was hit in the shoulder, while the woman was airlifted to the hospital for stomach surgery.

This is farking inexcusable. There should never be a gun with live ammo on set. Again, What. The. FARK?
 
2021-10-21 10:27:09 PM  

Lsherm: How does this happen in this day and age? You can literally fill the end of a barrel with weld and if you need a closeup, CGI it. Why is there anything close to live ammunition on a movie set? What the everloving fark?

Baldwin, for as much of an asshole as he has been over his whole life, must feel awful. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who knows how to treat guns.

But from a different article:

Deadline previously heard from sources that a principal castmember cocked a gun during a rehearsal, unaware that there were live rounds in it, hitting two people, a man and a woman. The man was hit in the shoulder, while the woman was airlifted to the hospital for stomach surgery.

This is farking inexcusable. There should never be a gun with live ammo on set. Again, What. The. FARK?


Shall not be infri! fark the 2nd.
 
2021-10-21 10:29:19 PM  
I'm going to continue to rant: Brandon Lee was at least killed by a two-step process where a blank dislodged a previously stuck projectile. Understandable, STILL NO! But at least two mistakes had to be made for his death. It sounds like this was just one. They are regressing.
 
2021-10-21 10:33:04 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: Shall not be infri! fark the 2nd.


I don't think this is even about the second amendment - there shouldn't be REAL guns on a movie set, and it sounds like that's what happened. It's farking pretend, people!
 
2021-10-21 10:44:47 PM  
And it was Baldwin himself who was playing with the gun according to the Deadline article.  Jeezy Creezy, when reenactors are doing stuff for Hollywood we always have safety officers looking over every action to make sure we don't hurt anybody with muskets or cannons.  Who gave Alec Baldwin a real gun?
 
2021-10-21 10:45:37 PM  

Lsherm: Uchiha_Cycliste: Shall not be infri! fark the 2nd.

I don't think this is even about the second amendment - there shouldn't be REAL guns on a movie set, and it sounds like that's what happened. It's farking pretend, people!


You are correct on every level. But some bloke will say they are allowed to carry anywhere, and we'll end up back here. So let's get it all done with now.

\when I acted it was black tipped airsoft guns with cgi added muzzle flashes. Nothing evennlike a gun should be there.
 
2021-10-21 10:49:30 PM  
Canadian justice...

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-21 10:51:17 PM  

Lsherm: How does this happen in this day and age? You can literally fill the end of a barrel with weld and if you need a closeup, CGI it. Why is there anything close to live ammunition on a movie set? What the everloving fark?

Baldwin, for as much of an asshole as he has been over his whole life, must feel awful. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who knows how to treat guns.

But from a different article:

Deadline previously heard from sources that a principal castmember cocked a gun during a rehearsal, unaware that there were live rounds in it, hitting two people, a man and a woman. The man was hit in the shoulder, while the woman was airlifted to the hospital for stomach surgery.

This is farking inexcusable. There should never be a gun with live ammo on set. Again, What. The. FARK?


Yeah, the recoil argument is going to be the argument used by people who don't know what they are talking about.
A small electric motor and counterweight, maybe even just a rubber band could still give that look.
Unless it's a muzzle loader, guns use smokeless powder, so the smoke is bullshiat too.

or a really weird idea...try using something other than a gun to resolve a conflict.
 
2021-10-21 10:52:56 PM  
This business will get out of hand.  It will get out of hand and we'll be lucky to live through it.
 
2021-10-21 10:54:47 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: Lsherm: Uchiha_Cycliste: Shall not be infri! fark the 2nd.

I don't think this is even about the second amendment - there shouldn't be REAL guns on a movie set, and it sounds like that's what happened. It's farking pretend, people!

You are correct on every level. But some bloke will say they are allowed to carry anywhere, and we'll end up back here. So let's get it all done with now.

\when I acted it was black tipped airsoft guns with cgi added muzzle flashes. Nothing evennlike a gun should be there.


and the muzzle flash is just Hollywood because dumb people think it's real.

//I'm doing documentaries
 
2021-10-21 10:56:07 PM  

cretinbob: or a really weird idea...try using something other than a gun to resolve a conflict.


They were filming a Western, a beloved art as far as I'm concerned, and guns were part of the era. Doesn't mean you need to use real ammo at any point.
 
2021-10-21 11:01:19 PM  
If I was asked for a list of actors who might one day kill someone, Alec Baldwin would be near the top.
 
2021-10-21 11:06:47 PM  
So far it sounds like a horrible accident. The gun trigger is a real engineering design flaw. I know some thought has been put into smart triggers greatly opposed by the NRA crowd. Movie sets seem like an appropriate place for such technology.
 
2021-10-21 11:09:25 PM  
Next time, Alec, write a goddamn memo
 
2021-10-21 11:12:08 PM  
I don't know what happened, so I can't comment on that. I'm sure we will learn soon enough.

I'm sorry for the family of the person killed, I hope for the best for the person injured, and my sympathies to everyone on the set.
 
2021-10-21 11:18:45 PM  
Well Alec Baldwin killed one person and seriously injured another with just one bullet. That's some bad-ass Western shiat right there!
 
2021-10-21 11:21:11 PM  

Confabulat: Well Alec Baldwin killed one person and seriously injured another with just one bullet. That's some bad-ass Western shiat right there!


Guy already killed a nuclear power station in New York
 
2021-10-21 11:24:18 PM  

Lsherm: there shouldn't be REAL guns on a movie set, and it sounds like that's what happened.


OK, this is my literal, actual job.  Almost all my recent credits have been as a gun wrangler instead of a full fight director, because there's a lot more call for guns over swords in films and plays these days.

Your statement is wrong.

There are, occasionally, instances where blank-adapted (ie, live) firearms are on set. This is very often the case for firearm models where no substitute is available (blank-firing weapons, electric non-guns, etc), or a prop house is unwilling to make modifications to a live firearm.  All of the military firearms at the end of The Avengers 2012, for example (to use a film I worked on that you may have seen) were live firearms.  The M2HB, in particular, was just a National Guard-issue M2HB which fired full-load .50BMG blank rounds.

There are, occasionally, instances where CGI cannot be used to fake everything about firearms.  Having the actor stand there with a rubber prop and pretend to feel recoil always looks fake, for example, and if no electric non-gun is available for the model of firearm being used (which is hugely common), then you end up with a live gun.  In such instances, blank firearms of various loads (usually the minimum load to let the action cycle, if needed) are used.  Likewise, slide action and brass are particularly irritating for VFX houses, and there are several relatively high-budget things (TV shows, mostly) which get routinely eviscerated by people who care, because they just CGI in muzzle flash and nothing else; this is where the famous shots of The Walking Dead which show an M4 firing with its ejection port closed and with no ejecting brass come from.

There are, occasionally, instances where the director, production staff, and actors are all on board with making things as real as possible, which necessitates the use of blanks.  And sometimes, live firearms (usually with interior threading inside the muzzle to fit a blank-firing adaptor which will still allow the action to cycle with the lower pressure incurred by the blank) are the best solution to that.  At a minimum, live guns adapted for blank fire are universally more reliable than purpose-built blank guns.  If we're on a theatre stage and a blank gun malfunctions, we improvise and go on.  On a film set, if a blank gun malfunctions, the studio is out a huge amount of money as the shot is reset, so there's a strong incentive to use blank-adapted guns on film if you can't use CGI for some reason.

But here's the thing.  There are strong, stringent, should-not-be-farking-broken safeties in place on a film set or stage play in order to keep things safe.  There are multiple layers of safeties and cutouts at all times** to ensure that this shiat doesn't happen, and what it means here is that not only did multiple someones screw up prior to the actor ever handling the weapon (oh, and there will be consequences about that), but it means that is Alec Baldwin a farking moron - because no matter what else happened, he still pulled the trigger while pointing a weapon directly at a person.  No matter how bad anyone screws up along the line, if the actor doesn't do that, nobody gets hurt.  This is something that gets hammered into the actors I train over and over and over again.  The actor with his hand on the weapon is the final safety cutout in EVERY SINGLE SCENE, and if he doesn't have the mental wherewithal to understand the concepts of trigger discipline and muzzle awareness, then he doesn't belong onscreen handling weapons in the first place.

**Rule 7: Live ammunition NEVER appears on the same set with any sort of non-rubber firearm.  If a firearm capable of firing any sort of ammunition (blank or not) is on set, live ammunition is forbidden.  (The Theatrical Firearms Handbook, Kevin Inouye, 2014)

Glossary:
Blank: An explosive cartridge with an  explosive propellant in various quantities (full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, primer only), a primer to set off the propellant, and a casing to hold it all, with no explicit projectile.
Blank Firing Gun: A prop which resembles a weapon, built explicitly to fire blanks and cannot be loaded with real ammunition.
Blank-adapted Gun: A real firearm, capable of firing actual ammunition, which has been adapted with a (usually hidden) device to partially block the barrel and create enough chamber pressure to cycle the action. Is loaded with blank ammunition, but in the same caliber as real ammunition (ie, 5.56x45mm quarter-load blank; .30-06 full load blank).  These tend to be "Hero Props"; used for close-ups and/or shots showing the disassembly or loading of the weapon.
Electric Non-Gun: Electrically actuated prop which has a motor which moves the slide, kicks out empty brass cartridges, and ignites flash paper contained within the muzzle to simulate muzzle flash.  These are custom-built by prop houses, not commercially available, and are often the target of legal action by the real firearm companies since they necessarily resemble the real thing.  H&K is particularly bad in this regard.
Rubber Gun:a rubber or silicone casting of a real firearm, painted to look genuine.  Use of these is preferable at all times, unless there is a specific reason to use anything else.
 
2021-10-21 11:24:39 PM  
Many many questions...
I wonder if they were using a cap and ball style revolver? Blanks for that type of gun would consist of primer caps and powder with a wad pressed in the chambers to hold it in place. They were known to have an issue with chain firing if the loader wasn't careful, pull the trigger once and the burning powder ignites the other chambers in the cylinder.
What I can't wrap my head around is the projectiles. There's no way they would actually put bullets in the gun. So did the gun explode, and shrapnel hit them?
One person in the gut, and the other in the shoulder. Can't imagine he pulled the trigger twice.
 
2021-10-21 11:24:57 PM  
media.vanityfair.comView Full Size

I could shoot someone in the middle of this set and I wouldn't lose any votes
 
2021-10-21 11:28:41 PM  

cretinbob: Uchiha_Cycliste: Lsherm: Uchiha_Cycliste: Shall not be infri! fark the 2nd.

I don't think this is even about the second amendment - there shouldn't be REAL guns on a movie set, and it sounds like that's what happened. It's farking pretend, people!

You are correct on every level. But some bloke will say they are allowed to carry anywhere, and we'll end up back here. So let's get it all done with now.

\when I acted it was black tipped airsoft guns with cgi added muzzle flashes. Nothing evennlike a gun should be there.

and the muzzle flash is just Hollywood because dumb people think it's real.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-21 11:32:22 PM  
media.npr.orgView Full Size

A moment of sirence prease.

 
2021-10-21 11:33:08 PM  
This headline sucks ass.
 
2021-10-21 11:37:11 PM  
OK, enough with the education, now for the snark.

Hey, remember that whole IATSE strike thing the other week?  Maybe, just MAYBE, if the film workers weren't hideously overworked and got a reasonable amount of rest, whatever series of mistakes and impaired judgement led to live ammunition being on set in the first place wouldn't have happened?  If only there was some way to ensure that the film workers responsible for on-set safety weren't operating punch-drunk from sleep deprivation for 2-4 straight months at a stretch.

Ah well, too bad.  If only there was some way to make it happen, it would be a better world.
 
2021-10-21 11:37:17 PM  
Let's go Baldwin.
 
2021-10-21 11:37:54 PM  
You are worthless Alec Baldwin
You failed in every way and now my stock in you has fallen
Your career is stallin' and you're worthless Alec Baldwin
 
2021-10-21 11:38:37 PM  

Redh8t: Many many questions...
I wonder if they were using a cap and ball style revolver? Blanks for that type of gun would consist of primer caps and powder with a wad pressed in the chambers to hold it in place. They were known to have an issue with chain firing if the loader wasn't careful, pull the trigger once and the burning powder ignites the other chambers in the cylinder.
What I can't wrap my head around is the projectiles. There's no way they would actually put bullets in the gun. So did the gun explode, and shrapnel hit them?
One person in the gut, and the other in the shoulder. Can't imagine he pulled the trigger twice.


They didn't specify how the director was injured.  Wadding strike on the director of photography, maybe a muzzle flash burn on the director if it was too close to him?  The energy and flames from burning black powder can be just as deadly as actual lead.
 
2021-10-21 11:44:03 PM  

FightDirector: Lsherm: there shouldn't be REAL guns on a movie set, and it sounds like that's what happened.

OK, this is my literal, actual job.  Almost all my recent credits have been as a gun wrangler instead of a full fight director, because there's a lot more call for guns over swords in films and plays these days.

Your statement is wrong.

There are, occasionally, instances where blank-adapted (ie, live) firearms are on set. This is very often the case for firearm models where no substitute is available (blank-firing weapons, electric non-guns, etc), or a prop house is unwilling to make modifications to a live firearm.  All of the military firearms at the end of The Avengers 2012, for example (to use a film I worked on that you may have seen) were live firearms.  The M2HB, in particular, was just a National Guard-issue M2HB which fired full-load .50BMG blank rounds.

There are, occasionally, instances where CGI cannot be used to fake everything about firearms.  Having the actor stand there with a rubber prop and pretend to feel recoil always looks fake, for example, and if no electric non-gun is available for the model of firearm being used (which is hugely common), then you end up with a live gun.  In such instances, blank firearms of various loads (usually the minimum load to let the action cycle, if needed) are used.  Likewise, slide action and brass are particularly irritating for VFX houses, and there are several relatively high-budget things (TV shows, mostly) which get routinely eviscerated by people who care, because they just CGI in muzzle flash and nothing else; this is where the famous shots of The Walking Dead which show an M4 firing with its ejection port closed and with no ejecting brass come from.

There are, occasionally, instances where the director, production staff, and actors are all on board with making things as real as possible, which necessitates the use of blanks.  And sometimes, live firearms (usually with interior threading inside the muzzle to fit a blank-firing adaptor which will still allow the action to cycle with the lower pressure incurred by the blank) are the best solution to that.  At a minimum, live guns adapted for blank fire are universally more reliable than purpose-built blank guns.  If we're on a theatre stage and a blank gun malfunctions, we improvise and go on.  On a film set, if a blank gun malfunctions, the studio is out a huge amount of money as the shot is reset, so there's a strong incentive to use blank-adapted guns on film if you can't use CGI for some reason.

But here's the thing.  There are strong, stringent, should-not-be-farking-broken safeties in place on a film set or stage play in order to keep things safe.  There are multiple layers of safeties and cutouts at all times** to ensure that this shiat doesn't happen, and what it means here is that not only did multiple someones screw up prior to the actor ever handling the weapon (oh, and there will be consequences about that), but it means that is Alec Baldwin a farking moron - because no matter what else happened, he still pulled the trigger while pointing a weapon directly at a person.  No matter how bad anyone screws up along the line, if the actor doesn't do that, nobody gets hurt.  This is something that gets hammered into the actors I train over and over and over again.  The actor with his hand on the weapon is the final safety cutout in EVERY SINGLE SCENE, and if he doesn't have the mental wherewithal to understand the concepts of trigger discipline and muzzle awareness, then he doesn't belong onscreen handling weapons in the first place.

**Rule 7: Live ammunition NEVER appears on the same set with any sort of non-rubber firearm.  If a firearm capable of firing any sort of ammunition (blank or not) is on set, live ammunition is forbidden.  (The Theatrical Firearms Handbook, Kevin Inouye, 2014)

Glossary:
Blank: An explosive cartridge with an  explosive propellant in various quantities (full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, primer only), a primer to set off the propellant, and a casing to hold it all, with no explicit projectile.
Blank Firing Gun: A prop which resembles a weapon, built explicitly to fire blanks and cannot be loaded with real ammunition.
Blank-adapted Gun: A real firearm, capable of firing actual ammunition, which has been adapted with a (usually hidden) device to partially block the barrel and create enough chamber pressure to cycle the action. Is loaded with blank ammunition, but in the same caliber as real ammunition (ie, 5.56x45mm quarter-load blank; .30-06 full load blank).  These tend to be "Hero Props"; used for close-ups and/or shots showing the disassembly or loading of the weapon.
Electric Non-Gun: Electrically actuated prop which has a motor which moves the slide, kicks out empty brass cartridges, and ignites flash paper contained within the muzzle to simulate muzzle flash.  These are custom-built by prop houses, not commercially available, and are often the target of legal action by the real firearm companies since they necessarily resemble the real thing.  H&K is particularly bad in this regard.
Rubber Gun:a rubber or silicone casting of a real firearm, painted to look genuine.  Use of these is preferable at all times, unless there is a specific reason to use anything else.


Thanks for the educational post!

I really, really wonder what the story will be of how live ammo wound up on set.  It seems even more dangerous than modern films because I can't imagine a Western has blank-adapted guns; they're all manually operated (lever action, revolver, etc.) weapons, so a blank adaptation would generally not be done, right?
 
2021-10-21 11:44:36 PM  
If they can make an iPhone give physical feedback when you make a purchase in the App Store, then why can't someone make a fake gun that simulates the kick of a real gun? Weights, motors, blah blah blah.
 
2021-10-21 11:44:58 PM  

FightDirector: Alec Baldwin a farking moron - because no matter what else happened, he still pulled the trigger while pointing a weapon directly at a person.  No matter how bad anyone screws up along the line, if the actor doesn't do that, nobody gets hurt.  This is something that gets hammered into the actors I train over and over and over again.  The actor with his hand on the weapon is the final safety cutout in EVERY SINGLE SCENE, and if he doesn't have the mental wherewithal to understand the concepts of trigger discipline and muzzle awareness, then he doesn't belong onscreen handling weapons in the first place.


I can imagine there are many cases where the director wants the actor to shoot towards the camera, and if the director and DP are standing next to the camera....

/I was a range qualified instructor in the UK Air Training Corps, on the old #8 bolt action rifle and the L98, the single shot version of the British Army SA80 (identical weapon but the gas mechanism removed, you had to cock it every time) and we were very strict. We even lined up every cadet at the end if every session and made them state one by one that they did not have any live rounds or empty shell cases in their possession.
//Something went very wrong here, and Baldwin must feel terrible. Feel terrible for the poor DP.
 
2021-10-21 11:45:25 PM  
Lsherm:

Baldwin, for as much of an asshole as he has been over his whole life, must feel awful. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who knows how to treat guns.

I give it a good chance that he was shiatfaced when this happened.

Granted, as another poster above explained, there are several fail-safes on a PROFESSIONAL movie set that should guarantee that something like this never happens, but I'll wager that New Mexico is not nearly as stringent as California when it comes to gun safety laws.

I get uncomfortable pointing a NERF gun at someone for fear I might hit their eye.  You couldn't may me enough money to point a prop gun at someone.  Scares me shiatless.

In all, it's a horribly tragic event that probably marks the end of his otherwise charmed life.  He's a heavy farking drinker and he's undoubtedly going to suffocate the pain away with whiskey.  I feel terrible for him.
 
2021-10-21 11:45:29 PM  

MorningBreath: If I was asked for a list of actors who might one day kill someone, Alec Baldwin would be near the top.


He killed at least two brothers of his so far.
 
2021-10-21 11:45:55 PM  
Yes, FightDirector, thank you for sharing, I learned a lot.
 
2021-10-21 11:46:07 PM  
And now Alec has gone missing.
 
2021-10-21 11:47:45 PM  

FightDirector: OK, enough with the education, now for the snark.

Hey, remember that whole IATSE strike thing the other week?  Maybe, just MAYBE, if the film workers weren't hideously overworked and got a reasonable amount of rest, whatever series of mistakes and impaired judgement led to live ammunition being on set in the first place wouldn't have happened?  If only there was some way to ensure that the film workers responsible for on-set safety weren't operating punch-drunk from sleep deprivation for 2-4 straight months at a stretch.

Ah well, too bad.  If only there was some way to make it happen, it would be a better world.


Do we know there was live ammunition on the set? The Brandon Lee shooting was a blank cartridge.
 
2021-10-21 11:47:48 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-21 11:47:57 PM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: FightDirector: Alec Baldwin a farking moron - because no matter what else happened, he still pulled the trigger while pointing a weapon directly at a person.  No matter how bad anyone screws up along the line, if the actor doesn't do that, nobody gets hurt.  This is something that gets hammered into the actors I train over and over and over again.  The actor with his hand on the weapon is the final safety cutout in EVERY SINGLE SCENE, and if he doesn't have the mental wherewithal to understand the concepts of trigger discipline and muzzle awareness, then he doesn't belong onscreen handling weapons in the first place.

I can imagine there are many cases where the director wants the actor to shoot towards the camera, and if the director and DP are standing next to the camera....

/I was a range qualified instructor in the UK Air Training Corps, on the old #8 bolt action rifle and the L98, the single shot version of the British Army SA80 (identical weapon but the gas mechanism removed, you had to cock it every time) and we were very strict. We even lined up every cadet at the end if every session and made them state one by one that they did not have any live rounds or empty shell cases in their possession.
//Something went very wrong here, and Baldwin must feel terrible. Feel terrible for the poor DP.


That sounds very plausible.  I wonder when more details will be released.
 
2021-10-21 11:48:31 PM  
Elizabeth Daily's actor boyfriend, Jon-Erik Hexum, killed himself with a prop gun full of blanks. During a filming break, he didn't know what he was doing, and as a joke, fired it at his own head. The autopsy found the paper wadding 2 inches deep in his brain.
 
2021-10-21 11:49:37 PM  
You just know Rump is going to have a very saucy reaction to this.
 
2021-10-21 11:52:05 PM  

Pointy Tail of Satan: Elizabeth Daily's actor boyfriend, Jon-Erik Hexum, killed himself with a prop gun full of blanks. During a filming break, he didn't know what he was doing, and as a joke, fired it at his own head. The autopsy found the paper wadding 2 inches deep in his brain.


I remember that was a sad day in high school for all the people who had crushes on him.
 
2021-10-21 11:52:10 PM  

Redh8t: Many many questions...
I wonder if they were using a cap and ball style revolver? Blanks for that type of gun would consist of primer caps and powder with a wad pressed in the chambers to hold it in place. They were known to have an issue with chain firing if the loader wasn't careful, pull the trigger once and the burning powder ignites the other chambers in the cylinder.
What I can't wrap my head around is the projectiles. There's no way they would actually put bullets in the gun. So did the gun explode, and shrapnel hit them?
One person in the gut, and the other in the shoulder. Can't imagine he pulled the trigger twice.


Cinematographer was hit in abdomen, director in shoulder. Here's a photo of the victim on another set. Notice that her abdomen and that director's shoulder are on same level. 
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-21 11:52:59 PM  

NM Volunteer: And it was Baldwin himself who was playing with the gun according to the Deadline article.  Jeezy Creezy, when reenactors are doing stuff for Hollywood we always have safety officers looking over every action to make sure we don't hurt anybody with muskets or cannons.  Who gave Alec Baldwin a real gun?


He wasn't "playing with the gun." According to TFA, they were doing a rehearsal take before rolling the camera.

Considering the person killed and the person hurt, this sounds like they were trying to frame a "gun firing directly at the screen" shot that's been done a thousand times.
DP got hit by something and the director got wounded since, I'll wager a shiny new dime he was either behind her or beside her.

This is on whoever is in charge of the prop weapons (since Brandon Lee, they've had nearly 3 decades to learn how to properly handle prop guns for optimum safety) and probably the director for insisting on doing a real firearm discharge at the camera since "it looks more real than CGI."

I'm as much a fan of practical effects as anyone, but it's a small concession where safety is concerned.
 
2021-10-21 11:55:03 PM  

bthom37: really, really wonder what the story will be of how live ammo wound up on set.  It seems even more dangerous than modern films because I can't imagine a Western has blank-adapted guns; they're all manually operated (lever action, revolver, etc.) weapons, so a blank adaptation would generally not be done, right?


It had to have been a mistake somewhere along the line, assuming we aren't getting a misrepresentation from the media and it was actually a cap-and-ball firearm that went bad. Even when you need to get a closeup shot of ammo, you don't use live rounds; you take a live round and remove the powder from the interior (may or may not remove the primer), creating a "dummy round", which looks identical to live ammo since you see the casing and cartridge.

Were I to make a GUESS - and make no mistake, this is a WAG - I would bet that somebody grabbed a case of live ammo which was intended to be made into dummy rounds (conversion to dummy rounds gets made near set sometimes, due to vagaries of filming and directors suddenly wanting something that you weren't prepped for), and brought them to set thinking they were dummy rounds.  I mean, pretty much nothing excuses pointing a weapon at someone and pulling the trigger, but in terms of how live ammo could be loaded into a firearm on a professional Hollywood set with (presumably) a stunt director and a gun wrangler and their assistant teams on-site, it's hard to imagine another scenario.

Live ammo on some shiatty indie flick somewhere, or a Western Stunt Show or something? Yeah, happens every few years or so.  That's a price of doing that business and refusing to pay people like me our rates to keep their dumb asses safe.  But on a Hollywood set?  In 2021?! It's mind-blowing that this could happen given the massive number of safeties in the process of putting guns onscreen.

/well, I can imagine other scenarios, but all of them go into such assumptions of incompetence or bad faith on someone's part that they'd not feel like anything but an attack, and that isn't what I want to get in to
 
2021-10-22 12:00:04 AM  

Gooch: You just know Rump is going to have a very saucy reaction to this.


If he doesn't, will you never again be the first to mention him in a thread?
 
2021-10-22 12:01:28 AM  

Carter Pewterschmidt:
Do we know there was live ammunition on the set? The Brandon Lee shooting was a blank cartridge.

The media report is that there was live ammo.  How true that is, who knows?

And for the second thing, no, it wasn't.  A dummy round with the primer in it was fired the previous shooting day, kicking the projectile an inch or two down the barrel and it lodged there (aka, a "squib round").  The next day, behind schedule, nobody checked the barrel for obstructions like they were supposedto, and a full-power blank round (with casing, primer, and powder, but no projectile) was loaded into the weapon.  When the blank fired, all 4 parts of a real round were present in the same place at the same time, and the stuck projectile was ejected from the muzzle at pretty close to a normal velocity and hit Brandon in the spine.

/all 4 parts of real ammo: primer, casing, powder, and projectile, should never be in the same gun at the same time on a film set.


stoli n coke: his sounds like they were trying to frame a "gun firing directly at the screen" shot that's been done a thousand times.


Incidentally, when you do this, you do it with a remote camera, or you set the shot first and then get out from behind the goddamn camera before saying "action.  The shot has been done before, but part of the process of that shot is getting out from behind the camera so the weapon isn't pointing at anyone.  And regardless, if you're pointing a weapon at anyone - including the idiot who didn't get out from behind the camera - you don't pull the trigger anyway. Even if you think the gun is unloaded.  Especially if you think the gun is unloaded.
 
2021-10-22 12:02:59 AM  
This is like "You little PIG!" times a thousand.
 
2021-10-22 12:03:38 AM  

FightDirector: Lsherm: there shouldn't be REAL guns on a movie set, and it sounds like that's what happened.

OK, this is my literal, actual job.  Almost all my recent credits have been as a gun wrangler instead of a full fight director, because there's a lot more call for guns over swords in films and plays these days.

Your statement is wrong.

There are, occasionally, instances where blank-adapted (ie, live) firearms are on set. This is very often the case for firearm models where no substitute is available (blank-firing weapons, electric non-guns, etc), or a prop house is unwilling to make modifications to a live firearm.  All of the military firearms at the end of The Avengers 2012, for example (to use a film I worked on that you may have seen) were live firearms.  The M2HB, in particular, was just a National Guard-issue M2HB which fired full-load .50BMG blank rounds.

There are, occasionally, instances where CGI cannot be used to fake everything about firearms.  Having the actor stand there with a rubber prop and pretend to feel recoil always looks fake, for example, and if no electric non-gun is available for the model of firearm being used (which is hugely common), then you end up with a live gun.  In such instances, blank firearms of various loads (usually the minimum load to let the action cycle, if needed) are used.  Likewise, slide action and brass are particularly irritating for VFX houses, and there are several relatively high-budget things (TV shows, mostly) which get routinely eviscerated by people who care, because they just CGI in muzzle flash and nothing else; this is where the famous shots of The Walking Dead which show an M4 firing with its ejection port closed and with no ejecting brass come from.

There are, occasionally, instances where the director, production staff, and actors are all on board with making things as real as possible, which necessitates the use of blanks.  And sometimes, live firearms (usually with interior threading inside the muzzle to fi ...


Dude, Thank you, it clears most of it up. It doesn't explain how someone was shot with live ammo.

I'm not being sarcastic, you may have written the most informative post on Fark in the past 20 years. Thank you.
 
2021-10-22 12:05:20 AM  
 
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-10-22 12:05:28 AM  

Carter Pewterschmidt: FightDirector: OK, enough with the education, now for the snark.

Hey, remember that whole IATSE strike thing the other week?  Maybe, just MAYBE, if the film workers weren't hideously overworked and got a reasonable amount of rest, whatever series of mistakes and impaired judgement led to live ammunition being on set in the first place wouldn't have happened?  If only there was some way to ensure that the film workers responsible for on-set safety weren't operating punch-drunk from sleep deprivation for 2-4 straight months at a stretch.

Ah well, too bad.  If only there was some way to make it happen, it would be a better world.

Do we know there was live ammunition on the set? The Brandon Lee shooting was a blank cartridge.


The Brandon Lee shooting was a two part failure as mentioned above.
The Weapons master pulled the powder out of cartridges and popped the primers, then replaced the bullets for close ups of the gun and ammunition. Except they missed a primer and when an actor pulled the trigger, the primer had enough energy to lodge a bullet in the barrel.
Then they switched over to blanks...
 
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